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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Chuckles View Post
    And that is the ultimate problem with tying both the ribbon feats and the useful feats to the same resource pool. You end up having to choose between having granola or having the packaging.

    PF2 is inadvertently making role vs. roll baked into the system. I can already see people in the future making annoyed comments that their players only ever choose <race option A>.
    Honestly, PF2, while i havent read it, sounds like the final product of several spoiled developers who didnt step back and ask what each of their decisions contributed to a character.

    I fundamentally agree with the idea that in a fantasy game, your race and background should evolve as your class does. Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica is the first step on the path to DnD 5E being capable of evolving into DnD 6E with the intentional expansion of the background system for Ravnican guilds. An Orc should need to balance their nature as a sentient being focused on cooperation in their evolution, with the siren song of the primal, and slowly either claim or reject their civilized nature over the course of 20 levels.

    But all this topic has done is convince me that PF2, by the time its actually a system of even comparable merit to core-only 3.5, will barely even still be PF2.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    I'm still waiting to see anything to actually justify the claims that any of the ancestry feats are "just ribbon abilities" in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Honestly, PF2, while i havent read it, sounds like the final product of several spoiled developers who didnt step back and ask what each of their decisions contributed to a character.
    "I didn't actually (read/watch) (thing), but I say it sucks, based entirely on the surface-level opinions of other people who say it sucks" is the kind of comment that adds negative value to a thread, even for the people who are sharing their surface-level opinions from having actually watched or read (thing).

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadie View Post
    I'm still waiting to see anything to actually justify the claims that any of the ancestry feats are "just ribbon abilities" in the first place.


    "I didn't actually (read/watch) (thing), but I say it sucks, based entirely on the surface-level opinions of other people who say it sucks" is the kind of comment that adds negative value to a thread, even for the people who are sharing their surface-level opinions from having actually watched or read (thing).
    I mean, saying "I've heard bad things about X" does add value to a conversation. This isn't a court of law where hearsay is forbidden, and especially so in marketing, word of mouth is a huge factor, so if you've heard bad things about something, there's often merit to it.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadie View Post
    "I didn't actually (read/watch) (thing), but I say it sucks, based entirely on the surface-level opinions of other people who say it sucks" is the kind of comment that adds negative value to a thread, even for the people who are sharing their surface-level opinions from having actually watched or read (thing).
    Im saying that what this topic says is that PF2 is bad because what it ended up becoming is the result of the same level of immaturity Pazio began to display towards the tail end of the original PF development. It has ideas but those ideas were never checked by a simple "Does this add to the experience i am developing"

    And i am not making a blanket statement that it sucks. PF2 is not 4e dnd in terms of fundamental lack of understanding that the developers were designing "A game, to be played by people who have finite free time, in a limited allocation of time", or any other situation where the game is so esoterically complex in actual mechanics that it cannot be played as a casually enjoyable experience.
    Last edited by toapat; 2019-08-05 at 06:45 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Im saying that what this topic says is that PF2 is bad because what it ended up becoming is the result of the same level of immaturity Pazio began to display towards the tail end of the original PF development.
    For blanket statements like that, it really helps if you could cite some evidence. Especially since nobody outside the GITP forums appears to share this opinion
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    For blanket statements like that, it really helps if you could cite some evidence. Especially since nobody outside the GITP forums appears to share this opinion
    I dont keep a detailed archive of conversations ive read. Ive heard this stated on both r/DnD and r/Dndnext, as well as on both the 3.5 and 5E forums here, and from people playing DDO back when i still played that, and accidentally crashed into it once on the ENworld forums.

    It might be hearsay, but considering how often i was hearing it in 2014, im not sure its not true.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Release

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    I dont keep a detailed archive of conversations ive read. Ive heard this stated on both r/DnD and r/Dndnext, as well as on both the 3.5 and 5E forums here, and from people playing DDO back when i still played that, and accidentally crashed into it once on the ENworld forums.

    It might be hearsay, but considering how often i was hearing it in 2014, im not sure its not true.
    It could well be due to the uneven selection of online people you're chatting with. People that like what Paizo is doing are on Paizo forums and chatrooms, people that don't are on DnD forums for 3.5 and 5E.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    It might be hearsay, but considering how often i was hearing it in 2014, im not sure its not true.
    Regardless of whether or not it's true, it is four years before the start of the P2 Playtest, so it doesn't strike me as particularly relevant to P2.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Regardless of whether or not it's true, it is four years before the start of the P2 Playtest, so it doesn't strike me as particularly relevant to P2.
    except the "ignoring or actively suppressing currently meritorious topics of discussion in development" was the primary path of attack on pazio as a company in these conversations, and was brought up earlier in this thread.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    except the "ignoring or actively suppressing currently meritorious topics of discussion in development" was the primary path of attack on pazio as a company in these conversations, and was brought up earlier in this thread.
    Sure, and things like this are pretty easy to check. The playtest forums show (1) a ton of responses from the developers, and (2) little or no locked threads, and even (3) whole subsystems from the playtest being scrapped because of player feedback. So whatever was the case four years ago is prima facie not the case in P2 any more.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Yes, let's rehash a bunch of unproven hearsay from the P1 playtest and pre-emptively decide to hate a game we haven't played based on that hearsay.

    Look, if you've already decided to hate P2, fine, nobody's stopping you. There are plenty of other threads to post in on this board. Some of us actually want to discuss the game, not dump all over those who do, and certainly not dredge up moldy baggage from the past. So can we not?

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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Release

    My opinion about PF2E isn't high so far, but to call the arguments against Paizo on this page flimsy would be giving them too much credit.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadie View Post
    I'm still waiting to see anything to actually justify the claims that any of the ancestry feats are "just ribbon abilities" in the first place.
    Don't take my word for it. Go read the ancestry feats for dwarves, then read the PF1 dwarf race and its list of abilities. You may disagree with me on what constitutes a useful vs. "ribbon" ability/feature. But you cannot deny that the PF1 (and 3.5, and 2e, and 1e) dwarf got a list of features from the start of being a character that the PF2 dwarf gets to pick one and only one of at level 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Look, if you've already decided to hate P2, fine, nobody's stopping you. There are plenty of other threads to post in on this board. Some of us actually want to discuss the game, not dump all over those who do, and certainly not dredge up moldy baggage from the past. So can we not?
    I do like that the ancestries have a nice and neat framework for handling both subraces AND half-races. I also like that races "advance" as you level, too, if only by virtue of feats. I'm ambivalent on the way stats are generated; I fear they'll be too same-y, but at the same time, they'll almost certainly provide you with the build you want and aren't nearly as complicated as point-buy systems always were. And they make racial mods more important without unbalancing things, which is also pretty clever.

    I think they started down an interesting road with Backgrounds, but then stepped back from it by making feats that Backgrounds get...lackluster enough to be forgettable. It's a similar mistake that Exalted 3e made: too much fiddling with mechanics, not enough cool "toys."

    If Paizo shows the same innovation-over-time they did with PF1, PF2 will probably eventually be a really cool system, but it isn't as strong out the gate as 5e was, in my opinion. Seeing what Dreamscarred Press, Drop Dead Studios, and other strong 3PPs do with it will also be interesting.

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    I do find some of the dysfunctions I've been hearing about the interact action to be amusing. ie basically any action that involves using an item is being classified as an Interact action, and Interact actions provoke Attacks of Opportunity. This leads to a strict RAW reading making things like using the parry property of your weapon, or using the Iaijutsu Strike feat provoking AoOs.

    Other than that I'm having a hard time putting a finger on why I don't like it. A lot of the core design philosophy I enjoy. I prefer the 3 actions system to what we have had in the past. I like the idea of more feats and more customization for any given character. I feel like it's the specific details every time I try to drill down that throw me off. Like in response to getting more feats, every feat is now much weaker to compensate... but they replaced class features with feats, so now I'm looking at long lists of watered down class features instead of just getting to do the fun stuff I am used to. For right now I am not in a hurry to switch systems, but who knows this is very easily something that can change as the system matures so I'll be keeping an eye out.


    As an aside, I actually really liked the concept of the resonance system originally in the playtest and am kind of sad that got scrapped rather than reworked slightly to be more of a useful tool. Yes things like spending a resonance for a healing potion or every time you wanted to open a bag of holding was dumb. And having both resonance and 2/day items was a bad idea. But I'd have rather had items that cost a resonance to activate and get rid of all daily limitations on items than the other way around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Don't take my word for it. Go read the ancestry feats for dwarves, then read the PF1 dwarf race and its list of abilities. You may disagree with me on what constitutes a useful vs. "ribbon" ability/feature. But you cannot deny that the PF1 (and 3.5, and 2e, and 1e) dwarf got a list of features from the start of being a character that the PF2 dwarf gets to pick one and only one of at level 1.
    What you're missing is that
    • Most of the 3.5 dwarf's abilities are ribbons. Seriously now, +2 to craft/appraise stone is exceedingly unlikely to come up, +1 to hit goblins is not relevant beyond level two, and you get proficiency in two weapons that almost no character will want to use.
    • The P2 list contains numerous abilities not found on, and better than, those 3.5 ribbons. E.g. P2's "hatred" ability also applies to anyone who crits you; and P2 dwarves can take fire resistance instead of a ribbon.
    • You in fact get two of these abilities in P2, plus more as you level up. That's not "one and only one".
    • And finally, the 3.5 dwarf is an atypical example because it has a HUGE list of extra abilities that other races do not. It's kind of silly to throw out a system just because one race may have gotten nerfed.
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    What you're missing is that
    • Most of the 3.5 dwarf's abilities are ribbons. Seriously now, +2 to craft/appraise stone is exceedingly unlikely to come up, +1 to hit goblins is not relevant beyond level two, and you get proficiency in two weapons that almost no character will want to use.
    • The P2 list contains numerous abilities not found on, and better than, those 3.5 ribbons. E.g. P2's "hatred" ability also applies to anyone who crits you; and P2 dwarves can take fire resistance instead of a ribbon.
    • You in fact get two of these abilities in P2, plus more as you level up. That's not "one and only one".
    • And finally, the 3.5 dwarf is an atypical example because it has a HUGE list of extra abilities that other races do not. It's kind of silly to throw out a system just because one race may have gotten nerfed.
    Dwarf was just the first and best example.

    The fact that the "ribbon" features are competing with actually useful ones is, in some ways, even worse: now they won't even be chosen.

    I am glad that the Hatred one has been upgraded to some degree, though I question how useful that degree is. Also, "you crited me! That makes me angry!" seems more orc than dwarf, to me, but I suppose they were groping about for SOMETHING to buff it with, and I do applaud that effort.

    I thought you got one at level one, and then more as you leveled. 2 is better, but still...they need to be WORTH IT, and putting things that are not worth it in the same list with things that are all but removes the former from the game.

    And the 3.5 gnome is VERY similar to the dwarf in this respect, as is the elf and half-elf. The half-orc is mostly notable for having a dearth of such features because +2 Str was considered just so overpowered. While that's not "every race," that's 3 BIG, classic ones.

    But hey, if my impression is wrong, that's great. I'm not looking to dislike PF2; this aspect just seems like something that they were about to do something cool with, and then somebody held up his arms to either side to stop people from charging forward. "Wait, wait, no, that might be unbalanced. Let's err on the side of boring and potentially too weak rather than exciting and potentially overpowered." And cool toys are always a gamble if you don't have lots of playtesting, as far as unintended consequences go.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    they need to be WORTH IT, and putting things that are not worth it in the same list with things that are all but removes the former from the game.
    That is true: if a list contains some feats that are much stronger than other feats, then that is a problem.

    That said, if no dwarf in my game takes "+2 to appraise stone", then I won't miss that (nor the gnome's +1 vs kobolds, nor the half-elf's immunity to the severely-HD-capped Sleep spell). That was such a pointlessly situational ability that most players wouldn't notice it in the first place. Ribbons shouldn't be considered sacred cows.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    That is true: if a list contains some feats that are much stronger than other feats, then that is a problem.

    That said, if no dwarf in my game takes "+2 to appraise stone", then I won't miss that (nor the gnome's +1 vs kobolds, nor the half-elf's immunity to the severely-HD-capped Sleep spell). That was such a pointlessly situational ability that most players wouldn't notice it in the first place. Ribbons shouldn't be considered sacred cows.
    I actually agree, but it's weird to put them in as entire feats if you're going to include them at all. If nothing else, it takes up space that could be used by better things.

    Like I said, I think there's potential here for nice expansion. I fully expect later splatbooks to be "essential" for well-built characters because they'll get more comfortable with a balance-point that is higher than the existing standard, both due to the inevitability of power creep and because they started way too low on the curve (at least to my first assessment of things). And this means races will grow in power and versatility with the growth of the system.

    I wish 5e exploited a bit more of this, actually; they could have done interesting things with superiority dice mechanics if they'd ever let it grow out of one subclass.

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    So if I played a half elf rogue (thief) and maxed out dex and left str at 10, then at level nine took multitalented as a racial feat and got the champion dedication, and then on all subsequent even levels took champion feats and abilities (somewhat weaker than a full champion would have) instead of rogue feats, but did not bother with the versatile armour one since my dex was so high, would the resulting character be crippled and a drag on the party or would it still be as viable as a champion without any multiclass archetype or as a rogue without a multi-class archetype?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I wish 5e exploited a bit more of this, actually; they could have done interesting things with superiority dice mechanics if they'd ever let it grow out of one subclass.
    I thought 5e did that in the core book with a feat that anybody could take at level 4 and that variant humans could take at level 1.
    Last edited by Particle_Man; 2019-08-05 at 11:45 AM.

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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post

    "Why put weak options in the book" is a question you can ask of literally every edition, even 5e. Possibly every system.

    Part of the problem is endemic to TTRPGs themselves, whereby they cannot be "patched" easily and so weak options stay weak.
    Also not everyone agrees on what makes something weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Don't take my word for it. Go read the ancestry feats for dwarves, then read the PF1 dwarf race and its list of abilities. You may disagree with me on what constitutes a useful vs. "ribbon" ability/feature. But you cannot deny that the PF1 (and 3.5, and 2e, and 1e) dwarf got a list of features from the start of being a character that the PF2 dwarf gets to pick one and only one of at level 1.
    With my own bias I'm torn whether I actually like this or not.

    I sympathize with your point of view of not liking what you used to get for free now you have to pay for and not even get everything. It's a sense of unfairness as a toy is taken away from you when you did nothing wrong. There are instances in real life of things that used to be free suddenly costing money, and it caused uproar. While not so dramatic I think the analogy explains it.

    However, the part of me that's not bothered by this is an old bias from my 2E days that 3E/Pathfinder patched but 5E brought back unless playing Variant Human. Humans get bupkis for race abilities while everyone else gets all the cool things - darkvision, bonuses to various rolls, minor magic, etc. In Pathfinder 2E that's no longer the case. A non-human is not just given lots of toys/ribbons. The player has to pick and choose and not get them all at once. Human gets his own choices.

    One could say it would have been better for Human to be given his own free toys and ribbons instead of taking them away from everyone else. That's where the bonus Feat & Skills come in for 3E/Pathfinder/5E Variant Human. I can agree with that preference, but I can only shed a tear instead of outright cry that non-humans no longer get free stuff.
    Last edited by Pex; 2019-08-05 at 12:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    What you're missing is that
    • Most of the 3.5 dwarf's abilities are ribbons. Seriously now, +2 to craft/appraise stone is exceedingly unlikely to come up, +1 to hit goblins is not relevant beyond level two, and you get proficiency in two weapons that almost no character will want to use.
    • The P2 list contains numerous abilities not found on, and better than, those 3.5 ribbons. E.g. P2's "hatred" ability also applies to anyone who crits you; and P2 dwarves can take fire resistance instead of a ribbon.
    • You in fact get two of these abilities in P2, plus more as you level up. That's not "one and only one".
    • And finally, the 3.5 dwarf is an atypical example because it has a HUGE list of extra abilities that other races do not. It's kind of silly to throw out a system just because one race may have gotten nerfed.
    I still don't understand why you insist on comparing PF2 to 3.5e instead of comparing it to PF1.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I actually agree, but it's weird to put them in as entire feats if you're going to include them at all. If nothing else, it takes up space that could be used by better things.
    Again, no game with feats has avoided all the turkeys, I don't think P2 is particularly special in that regard. Even 5e has relative jank like Durable and Keen Mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    I thought 5e did that in the core book with a feat that anybody could take at level 4 and that variant humans could take at level 1.
    They tried, a little, there. But that's all they did with it: one feat. No new techniques in other books or web supplements. No new subclasses that use a similar mechanic. It was, I think, their attempt at bringing ToB into 5e, but, like ToB, they never expanded on it.

    ToB had the excuse of being late in the game.

    Imagine with me, though, if the Swordsage and the Warblade were in the core 3.5 handbook alongside the other base classes. There's a section in the book with the Maneuvers just like there's a Spells section. Throughout 3.5's tenure, every new splat that had spells also tended to have maneuvers, with a few exceptions (C. Arcane might've just had spells, but C. Warrior would've just had maneuvers). The Crusader, perhaps, comes out in C. Warrior. Or maybe the Paladin in the 3.5 core book had maneuvers instead of spells, as did the Ranger. And Unearthed Arcana had variant rules for spell-using Paladins and Rangers.

    Heck, maybe the Fighter and Warblade were merged as one Fighter class.

    They had the opportunity to expand from the Battle Master in this fashion in 5e, but they didn't. And it feels like an immense missed opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    With my own bias I'm torn whether I actually like this or not.

    I sympathize with your point of view of not liking what you used to get for free now you have to pay for and not even get everything. It's a sense of unfairness as a toy is taken away from you when you did nothing wrong. There are instances in real life of things that used to be free suddenly costing money, and it caused uproar. While not so dramatic I think the analogy explains it.

    However, the part of me that's not bothered by this is an old bias from my 2E days that 3E/Pathfinder patched but 5E brought back unless playing Variant Human. Humans get bupkis for race abilities while everyone else gets all the cool things - darkvision, bonuses to various rolls, minor magic, etc. In Pathfinder 2E that's no longer the case. A non-human is not just given lots of toys/ribbons. The player has to pick and choose and not get them all at once. Human gets his own choices.

    One could say it would have been better for Human to be given his own free toys and ribbons instead of taking them away from everyone else. That's where the bonus Feat & Skills come in for 3E/Pathfinder/5E Variant Human. I can agree with that preference, but I can only shed a tear instead of outright cry that non-humans no longer get free stuff.
    In truth? I don't really care about the dwarven ribbon abilities. But breaking them up into multiple feats and making somebody pick one is just a waste of printing space and chargen time. Or at least of printing space, if there are actually worthwhile things to pick.

    I'd agree that there might be some "entitlement" attitude to "why are you taking away my toys?!" if I actually cared about those particular toys. (You'll get me fighting a lot harder against "nerf spellcasters!" threads.) But I don't. For one, the ribbon features really are decoration. They do so very, very little that they almost don't matter. Stripping them away completely wouldn't bother me nearly as much as treating each individual one as if it were worth a feat! I probably wouldn't even have noticed them missing, for the most part.

    I'd also be okay with the move if each of them had been beefed up to the point that you could center a minor aspect of your character around them. If they'd genuinely influence how a character was played. But it doesn't seem like they did. And that's a shame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Again, no game with feats has avoided all the turkeys, I don't think P2 is particularly special in that regard. Even 5e has relative jank like Durable and Keen Mind.
    It's a matter of degree. "1 in 1000 of these cars is a lemon, so that makes this other kind of car with 5 in 7 cars being lemons nothing special in the 'having lemons' department."

    I might be exaggerating, but not by much: these racial feats all utterly fail to excite me. I don't find myself torn over picking this one or that one so much as trying to figure out how I pick one when I just am bored by the options.

    This is...somewhat speculative; I haven't actually tried to build a character.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Sure, and things like this are pretty easy to check. The playtest forums show (1) a ton of responses from the developers, and (2) little or no locked threads
    Define "a ton", because peoples' perspectives might be different on this. I dipped out of the PF2 playtest after 3 weeks, at which point the devs had been mum almost that entire time (that's almost the entire first round playtest). I see scattered responses from Buhlman here and there on that forum, but not NEAR to the level Paizo used to participate. The Advanced Class Guide and Occult Adventures playtests are good ones to look at for what I would consider a TON of responses, where the dev for any given class kept a very close eye on their thread and responded often within minutes to an hour of a question being asked.

    That may be the disconnect, a difference of expectations.

    As for "locked" threads, it's annoying how effective Paizo's "delete without warning" mod policy is to discuss off the forum because it just makes you look like a conspiracy theorist to mention it as a criticism, which I imagine is entirely the intent.

    I really like how this forum's modding is done, by comparison.

    (3) whole subsystems from the playtest being scrapped because of player feedback. So whatever was the case four years ago is prima facie not the case in P2 any more.
    Which subsystems are these? The only one I've noticed missing is Resonance, but it's obviously been close to a year since I cracked open the playtest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    What you're missing is that[list][*]Most of the 3.5 dwarf's abilities are ribbons. Seriously now, +2 to craft/appraise stone is exceedingly unlikely to come up, +1 to hit goblins is not relevant beyond level two, and you get proficiency in two weapons that almost no character will want to use.[*]The P2 list contains numerous abilities not found on, and better than, those 3.5 ribbons. E.g. P2's "hatred" ability also applies to anyone who crits you; and P2 dwarves can take fire resistance instead of a ribbon.[*]You in fact get two of these abilities in P2, plus more as you level up. That's not "one and only one".

    For the final time, 3.5 and Pathfinder are not the same game. In this case most of the abilities are identical, but that is not always or even usually the case.

    But I'd dispute about numerous of the PF2 ones being better. Again, ignoring Alternate Racial Abilities alone is being willfully obtuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    [*]And finally, the 3.5 dwarf is an atypical example because it has a HUGE list of extra abilities that other races do not. It's kind of silly to throw out a system just because one race may have gotten nerfed.
    A.) It's not just one race, and B.) it's pretty indicative of the flaw with the Ancestry system and how it's laid out when one of Pathfinder's strongest races becomes one of the weakest.

    If you want another big example, Half-Orcs also suffer quite a lot, losing two of their best alt. racials, and losing out on most of the things they enjoyed at first level. Getting Darkvision and Orc Ferocity alone back takes 5 levels.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-08-05 at 02:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    It's a matter of degree. "1 in 1000 of these cars is a lemon, so that makes this other kind of car with 5 in 7 cars being lemons nothing special in the 'having lemons' department."

    I might be exaggerating, but not by much: these racial feats all utterly fail to excite me. I don't find myself torn over picking this one or that one so much as trying to figure out how I pick one when I just am bored by the options.

    This is...somewhat speculative; I haven't actually tried to build a character.
    The latter example is probably closer to 5e than the former - there are far fewer feats there (only ~40, fractions of 3.5/P1/P2's loadout), and they're all furthermore competing for build space with ASIs.

    Which isn't to say that I'd be unhappy if the feats contained no situational, niche, or weak choices at all. I just think there are better places for the devs to spend their time than perfectly balancing ~120 feats against each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    First off, is Rynjin's post breaking anyone else's CSS, or is it just me? Even writing this reply is tricky, it's a bit nuts.

    Anyway, on topic, I don't think it's helpful to use the Paizo forums to indicate people's opinions of PF2. Firstly, it doesn't matter which places speak positively and which places speak negatively, nor really the numbers of either. Quality isn't a matter of popular vote, after all. Secondly, like Rynjin I dipped out of the playtest pretty early on specifically because we were getting no dev answers or feedback on criticism. Indeed, things such as heritages I can also back up on moderation being pretty harsh and arbitrary - unlike the mods here, who lock threads and give a post as to why, threads would often vanish entirely with no explanation there.
    Last edited by Divine Susuryu; 2019-08-05 at 01:33 PM.

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    To be fair, world building is akin to creating the best and the worst that has to offer. NPCs deserve extreme situational specialization. It shouldn't be all about an "MC's" experience is what I am trying to say.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder 2 Release

    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Susuryu View Post
    First off, is Rynjin's post breaking anyone else's CSS, or is it just me? Even writing this reply is tricky, it's a bit nuts.
    I fixed it, looks like. Apparently leaving a [./list]tag floating in a quote breaks formatting, which is weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HamaYumi View Post
    To be fair, world building is akin to creating the best and the worst that has to offer. NPCs deserve extreme situational specialization. It shouldn't be all about an "MC's" experience is what I am trying to say.
    Agreed - Unseat is probably too situational a feat for any PC, but the NPC knight-errant who is happily using it to unhorse every bandit he comes across (and possibly the PCs if they're too slow to identify themselves) will be pretty memorable.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The latter example is probably closer to 5e than the former - there are far fewer feats there (only ~40, fractions of 3.5/P1/P2's loadout), and they're all furthermore competing for build space with ASIs.

    Which isn't to say that I'd be unhappy if the feats contained no situational, niche, or weak choices at all. I just think there are better places for the devs to spend their time than perfectly balancing ~120 feats against each other.
    5e feats are actually largely Bigger and Better than 3e feats. PF2 feats seem to have gone, in majority, the other direction.

    Now, your second paragraph is right, but I'd prefer more erring on the side of "do something cool" than I am seeing in the PF2 feats. I at least FEEL like I get that from 5e feats, which, as you say, have to compete with ASIs.

    Then again, I actually really LIKE Keen Mind, so my subjective analysis may be somewhat skew from yours in terms of judgment criteria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post

    A.) It's not just one race, and B.) it's pretty indicative of the flaw with the Ancestry system and how it's laid out when one of Pathfinder's strongest races becomes one of the weakest.

    If you want another big example, Half-Orcs also suffer quite a lot, losing two of their best alt. racials, and losing out on most of the things they enjoyed at first level. Getting Darkvision and Orc Ferocity alone back takes 5 levels.
    I was going to say that the strength of the Ancestry structure is that the half-orcs might get back their stronger alt-features in later feat releases, but to learn they can't even have DARKVISION before level 5 is...buh?

    Okay, I get it: there's a running gag at this point that darkvision is so common (in 5e, but also in 3e and PF) that humans and halflings are actually DISABLED for lacking it, rather than the other creature types having a special ability by having it. This does make that shift back, since now nobody has it before 5th level, and only a subset of orcs above 5th level will have it. Cool, sure, fine.

    But...yeesh.
    Last edited by Segev; 2019-08-05 at 02:51 PM.

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