The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 101

Thread: Fun Learning 4e

  1. - Top - End - #61
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2012

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatDragon
    Well, the lowest I got was two 11s.
    So Maybe: 16 Con, 14 Wis, 12 Int, 12 Cha, 11 Dex and 11 Str?
    Or take the Standard Array and drop that 8 into Str.
    But, most Players aren't likely to do that.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; Today at 12:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by masteraleph View Post

    SNIPPED great explanation from masteraleph

    In general, NPCs will have an AC of roughly Level +14 and non-armor defenses of roughly level +12- in the case of a high INT mage, Reflex might be level +14, Fortitude level +10, and Will level +12 or 13. Are they level 1? 15 AC, 15 Reflex, 11 Fortitude, 13 Will. Level 4? 18 AC, 18 Reflex, 14 Fortitude, 16 Will. What's their attack vs. your defenses? Roughly level +5 vs. AC, +3 vs. NADs. So their Sleep ability (which is NOT the level 1 Daily power Sleep) probably is 1d20+4 vs. Will at level 1, 1d20+7 at level 2, or 1d20+33 at level 30 (though note that effects probably change as levels increase). There are also standard numbers for monster damage and their hit points, as well.

    This, BTW, is why it's so important to give out appropriately leveled items (and why WotC introduced feats to increase PC attack and NADs in later books- they realized that PCs fell behind the curve at higher levels.) PCs need to keep up with enemies adding +1 to attack/defenses every level, and PCs only get +1 every 2 levels from leveling up. So PCs need appropriate Enhancement bonuses, ability bonuses, feat bonuses to keep up. This is something some folks disliked about 4e, and WotC tried to solve it via an optional Inherent Bonus system that reduces the number of items handed out, and then via the "flat math" of 5e.
    Great Dragon, masteraleph gave a really good explanation of the rate at which NPCs/monster defenses increase versus the rate at which PC attack bonuses increase. A mathematically minded friend of mine worked it out in a spreadsheet at one point and said that in 3ish terms that ALL 4e PCs have an equivalent to 1/2 BAB.

    That monster defenses scale faster than PC attack bonus matters in 4e play as I learned (the hard way) with my first 4e character, a PHB1 half-elf cleric built before "Divine Power" and the change in how non-human PC racial ability bonuses are handled. This character had a 17 WIS at 1st level for a +3 attack bonus, and with some admittedly bad dice luck, I was hitting less than 55% of the time and it was no fun. My GM let me rebuild for the 18 WIS and +4 attack bonus and my to-hit rate and therefore ability to contribute to the combats increased and I had more enjoyable time.

    4e PBH1 Cleric (and Paladin and Warlock) are sometimes described as "V shaped classes" meaning that they have two ability scores that their powers key off of and a 3rd ability used for "riders." In cleric's case it's WIS and STR with most of the riders (damage bonus or similar) coming from CHA. You can build and play a cleric that has both WIS and STR powers, but it tends to be easier to contribute to the action when you focus on one or the other and start with a post-racial modifier of an 18 in your "attack stat" and a 12+ in CHA for the riders. This is less obvious at low level, but as the game progresses, the number you need to roll on the d20 to overcome the enemies defenses creeps up. Starting with a +4 modifier (aka an 18) helps balance out the fact that enemy defenses grow faster than your attack bonus.

    P.S. It doesn't hurt a cleric that two of the better skills - insight and perception are both keyed off of WIS.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Edit: friend was also up late, and gave info via email.
    Cost for Armor, Mace and Light Crossbow = 70 go.
    Equipment next time.
    You probably don't need a crossbow since you have ranged at-will powers. You probably want to pick up a holy symbol and the standard adventurer's kit. There is encumbrance somewhere, but I don't recall exactly where in the PHB 1. Its something pretty high that is usually enough for most characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    But, just using your (weapon) at the foe is an attack (using either Str or Dex, depending on type - or are other Stats also allowed?) against their Armor Class.
    The stat that you use for an attack is dependent on the power that you use. For Basic Attacks, this depends on the weapon, but some classes will make both weapon and implement attacks with other stats. For example, Paladin has some Cha-based melee attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Making sure that he has his shield mace ready, Chainmail = AC 16 and Cleric moves up to the Evil Mage, and tries to knock some Sense into him!
    Half level (1 min) + 2 Proficiency (mace) + 0 Str = +3 to 1d20 roll.
    The half-level that you add to most of your d20 rolls isn't affected by the min-1 rule. You don't get the +1 level bonus to attacks until you hit level 2. If you do some legerdemain on your stats, you might want to increase your strength to increase the odds that you will hit with your melee powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Does 4e have Mage Armor?
    If so, assume Evil Mage has that.
    (Assuming 14 Int, What is AC?)

    If Shield spell exists, assume their Master is a meanie, and didn't teach that to Evil Mage.

    (But, go ahead and list what it does, please.
    Not just for me, but also for anyone else reading this Thread.)
    Monsters, including NPCs, have defenses that determined by the writer, not necessarily by a strict formula. There tends to be some correlation with equipment (so a mage enemy probably has a lower AC than the fighter bodyguard), but in the end it is whatever the writer thought it should have to be a proper balanced encounter. The wizard does have a shield utility power. IIRC, it is an interrupt power that gives an AC boost. A mage monster may also have a shield power, but it doesn't have to work the same way. Everything about the power would be located in the monster's stat block; there is no looking up what the effects of a particular spell are, like you would do in 3e or 5e for monster spellcasters.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Euphonistan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by masteraleph View Post
    Which is also a numerical value. All creatures (whether PCs or NPCs) have an AC, Reflex, Fortitude, and Will. In the case of PCs, you'll have to calculate those. For NPCs, they're listed in the stat block. Typically AC will be a few points higher than the other defenses, because most attacks vs. AC are with weapons, and Weapon attacks add in the proficiency bonus (either +2 or +3 depending on the weapon type). Weapon attacks vs. non-armor defenses ("NADs") are more accurate, usually, than ones vs. AC. You're comparing the d20 of the attack roll, plus appropriate bonuses, to the defense listed. If the attacker's total is equal or higher, they hit.



    This is another 4e vs. 5e difference- in 4e, you have Standard, Move, and Minor, and you generally can't stop in the middle of a move to do something else (there are some powers and items in the game- I don't recall if they're in PHB1- that let you stand up as a minor action). Standing up takes your move action.





    This is another big difference between 4e and other editions, and it is perhaps the single most liked aspect of 4e for DMs. NPCs (generally monsters, but also true of allies) do not follow PC rules. They are found as statblocks, with the appropriate defenses, hit points, etc. listed in the stat block- note that the numbers in Monster Manual 1 and 2 had issues, so people generally use MM3 and Monster Vaults 1 and 2 if they can. They have certain attacks, but typically far fewer than your average PC does, at least by the time you're in upper heroic, and again, all of the appropriate attack bonuses, damage amounts, effects, etc. are listed in the stat block. They have more hit points than a similarly leveled PC, but few healing surges, since they're designed to be around for an encounter and then go away. They might have items on them, but the items don't give them additional bonuses that you'd get from gaining the item- it's assumed that's baked into the stat block. In short: the Evil Mage might have a Shield ability, but not necessarily, and you wouldn't build a level 3 enemy mage like you would a level 3 PC mage. It's because of this that encounters are so easy to slap together in 4e- take a few enemies of appropriate level, and there are dozens or hundreds for any level, reskin the abilities, and POOF! you have the appropriate enemies. No building an entire party of enemy PCs where you're not sure how their abilities will interact with your party.

    In general, NPCs will have an AC of roughly Level +14 and non-armor defenses of roughly level +12- in the case of a high INT mage, Reflex might be level +14, Fortitude level +10, and Will level +12 or 13. Are they level 1? 15 AC, 15 Reflex, 11 Fortitude, 13 Will. Level 4? 18 AC, 18 Reflex, 14 Fortitude, 16 Will. What's their attack vs. your defenses? Roughly level +5 vs. AC, +3 vs. NADs. So their Sleep ability (which is NOT the level 1 Daily power Sleep) probably is 1d20+4 vs. Will at level 1, 1d20+7 at level 2, or 1d20+33 at level 30 (though note that effects probably change as levels increase). There are also standard numbers for monster damage and their hit points, as well.

    This, BTW, is why it's so important to give out appropriately leveled items (and why WotC introduced feats to increase PC attack and NADs in later books- they realized that PCs fell behind the curve at higher levels.) PCs need to keep up with enemies adding +1 to attack/defenses every level, and PCs only get +1 every 2 levels from leveling up. So PCs need appropriate Enhancement bonuses, ability bonuses, feat bonuses to keep up. This is something some folks disliked about 4e, and WotC tried to solve it via an optional Inherent Bonus system that reduces the number of items handed out, and then via the "flat math" of 5e.
    Just would like to point out that 3e is actually the outlier in this regard. oD&D, AD&D (1e and 2e), and 5e all have monsters and some NPCs using different rules than PCs. For instance in pre 3e D&D not all humans have class levels but in 3e all humans have class levels (even if it is just commoner). In some the differences are not quite as much (though often in those editions that is partially due to there not being too many details in character and monster creation for the most part).

    3e is really the odd one out where making monsters and NPCs are so similar and actually use the same resources and then compounds that with having way more details to plug in than other editions. It is also the only one that actively really requires that NPCs have certain levels of equipment in order to fit their CR if we are talking about NPCs which thankfully in other editions I can just add magic items I want them to have and not just to get the numbers I want.
    A vestige for me "Pyro火gnus Friend of Meepo" by Zaydos.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...5&postcount=26

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Is the Cleric done?
    (I'll edit in Equipment when on Tablet)

    If so, I'll start working on figuring out Paragon Level.

    I don't see much difference for Battle Cleric: other than more focus on damage spells?
    ********
    Humm. With Monsters being more "what the Author wants", I'm glad I'm not trying to DM this, right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire
    3e is really the odd one out where making monsters and NPCs are so similar and actually use the same resources and then compounds that with having way more details to plug in than other editions. It is also the only one that actively really requires that NPCs have certain levels of equipment in order to fit their CR if we are talking about NPCs which thankfully in other editions I can just add magic items I want them to have and not just to get the numbers I want.
    Not to upset those that like 4e, but the above is one of the reasons why I still love 3x D&D.

    In 3x, Because PCs, NPCs, and Monsters used similar Mechanics, I had less problems figuring out Monster CRs and even ECLs for unusual Character Concepts. (Monster Manual Minotaur as Barbarian PC)

    I like 5e, because it's fairly easy for new players to learn, and a lot of the Subclasses are neat; but their Monsters are no-where near "balanced" - being either super easy to deal with (Giant Rats) or hitting way over their Weight Class. (Intellect Devourer)

    *****
    Now, from what I understand, 4e shines the most in the Tactical aspects of the game (once one understands Game Mechanics) - which isn't something that can be done over a Forum.

    I'm not sure how I'm going to figure that part out, since everyone near me is doing either 5e or Retro Clones.
    *****************
    Some of the Reviews for PF2 are compairing this to 4e (my quick peek looked rather 5e, but would need to actually play to be sure), but I'd rather hear the opinions of those Experienced with 4e on whether or not this is true.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    An NPC is going to be built on a structure of what they do within the encounter. Mage-types are typically Artillery if they focus on blasting, or Controllers if they focus on statuses, forced movement, etc. The one in this example throws down sleep effects, so weíll safely peg them as a controller. This determines their base stats which you then modify with ability scores.

    Now, how the Evil Mage gets these numbers is deliberately abstracted. Any spells or wards that would be in effect before the PCs walk in (like Mage Armor) are just going to be baked into that number. If you want a shorter defensive boost, like a one-off reactive Shield, that would get listed as a power.

    Also, while I wouldnít necessarily drop the crossbow, be aware that itís not likely to be that useful. Your ranged at-wills will be more effective in most situations. Itís only when you need significant range that the crossbow will have advantage.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Not to upset those that like 4e, but the above is one of the reasons why I still love 3x D&D.

    In 3x, Because PCs, NPCs, and Monsters used similar Mechanics, I had less problems figuring out Monster CRs and even ECLs for unusual Character Concepts. (Monster Manual Minotaur as Barbarian PC)

    I like 5e, because it's fairly easy for new players to learn, and a lot of the Subclasses are neat; but their Monsters are no-where near "balanced" - being either super easy to deal with (Giant Rats) or hitting way over their Weight Class. (Intellect Devourer)
    I want to respond to this by quoting some posts from the other thread asking about 4E, with some editing focus on 4E DMing and to emphasize certain points:

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    From the DM side, though, is where 4e really shines. Monsters are SUPER easy to build. There are tables to use as guidelines, and you can whip out a fairly unique-feeling monster at the table in about 2 minutes flat. Prep is generally easy as well, and you can throw larger groups of foes at the party, which often makes more sense in the fiction of the game anyways. There are very good encounter-building guidelines as well that you should be aware of, follow a few times to get used to where your group sits on the power/competency scale, and then gradually exceed the guidelines in interesting ways. But the encounter guideline (what is a "balanced" encounter) will always be there, so you always know where you are theoretically hitting on the difficulty scale.

    ...

    DMing is super easy with 4e, though you may have to relearn some of your 3e/5e assumptions that you may be coming to the table with. It's the first edition my wife ever felt comfortable enough GMing to do it on a regular basis.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    4e is seriously the easiest edition to DM that I have experienced to date (3.0, 3.5, 4e and 5e). Encounter building is just one of those areas.

    ...

    My experiences with DMing 4e have made me a better DM (either running 5e or when I went back and ran a 3.5e game). Namely because I realized I was previously DMing while looking at the game and the world like the players do, and adhering to artificial standards of "balance" with regards to creatures vis a vis what PCs could do. Monsters and NPCs in 4e do not follow the same kind of creation rules that PCs do, and there's no reason they should. They're only around for one encounter. You can use monster-building guidelines to figure what kind of damage a creature of any given level will be able to put out, but apart from that, the actual abilities themselves should be fun, in keeping with the flavor of the creature, and exciting or cinematic in combat.

    As the 4e DM, you know that you are building encounters with an "XP Budget" that you use to "buy" creatures for the encounter. The amount of XP in the "Budget" depends on the Party's level, how many there are, and how difficult you want to make then encounter (there's a table in the DMG). You may want a mix of ranged and melee, or all melee, and you can always add a few Minion Creatures to fill out the ranks. You want an enemy spellcaster to lead the enemies, but don't want him being so frail that he goes down first? You can add a template to a regular Artillery or Controller type monster, making it elite (and doubling it's HP). You can finally pit a full party of 5 or 6 PCs against a Solo monster, and not have to worry about it either going down too quick due to Action Economy (most Solos have out-of-turn actions), or, conversely, doing so much damage that it TPKs the party. Dragon fights are fun and exciting. I ran a level 4 or 5 party against a Green Dragon early in my 4e run, and it was a huge hit with all the players.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoutonRustique View Post
    My 2cp (and keeping it short) - DM side of things

    You have about 500% more time to focus on story with regards to prep-time. Even as an expert 3.5 DM and a new 4e DM. It's that much easier to deal with the numbers. I'm not kidding.
    As an experienced DM of 2nd ed., 3.0/3.5, and 4E, I fully agree with these comments. I want to add is that 4E's combat math is extremely robust and this allows the XP budget idea to actually function exactly as intended. I can literally throw together an encounter on the fly, mid-session, just by rapidly looking up equal-level monsters, picking some that seem to fit, and throwing an appropriate number of them out on the battlefield: with 5 players that would be 5 monsters for a standard encounter, 7-8 for a hard encounter. I can easily riff on those numbers by adding Elite monsters (counts as 2) and/or adding in minions (4 minions for every monster replaced). I've done this countless times over the years when my players throw me curveballs and the encounters just work.

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Euphonistan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Is the Cleric done?
    (I'll edit in Equipment when on Tablet)

    If so, I'll start working on figuring out Paragon Level.

    I don't see much difference for Battle Cleric: other than more focus on damage spells?
    ********
    Humm. With Monsters being more "what the Author wants", I'm glad I'm not trying to DM this, right now.



    Not to upset those that like 4e, but the above is one of the reasons why I still love 3x D&D.

    In 3x, Because PCs, NPCs, and Monsters used similar Mechanics, I had less problems figuring out Monster CRs and even ECLs for unusual Character Concepts. (Monster Manual Minotaur as Barbarian PC)

    I like 5e, because it's fairly easy for new players to learn, and a lot of the Subclasses are neat; but their Monsters are no-where near "balanced" - being either super easy to deal with (Giant Rats) or hitting way over their Weight Class. (Intellect Devourer)

    *****
    Now, from what I understand, 4e shines the most in the Tactical aspects of the game (once one understands Game Mechanics) - which isn't something that can be done over a Forum.

    I'm not sure how I'm going to figure that part out, since everyone near me is doing either 5e or Retro Clones.
    *****************
    Some of the Reviews for PF2 are compairing this to 4e (my quick peek looked rather 5e, but would need to actually play to be sure), but I'd rather hear the opinions of those Experienced with 4e on whether or not this is true.
    I have the other view after DMing all of these versions of D&D that is one of the huge reasons why I HATE Dming 3e. It requires way more work to make something interesting or fun on the Dm side that it is the only edition I will refuse to DM ever again. I did a 3e campaign from 1st level to 20th level so I do have some experience in the area and my dislike of it comes from an actual experience rather than just inferences on how I think I would like it.
    A vestige for me "Pyro火gnus Friend of Meepo" by Zaydos.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...5&postcount=26

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

    Join Date
    Sep 2018

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    One important difference between Paragon Paths and Prestige Classes from 3.5 is that you get all the benefits from your Paragon Path in addition to everything you're getting from your base class. They're more like a subclass from 5e in that respect.

    The PHB only has a couple of PPs for each class, but the Power series (Divine Power for Clerics) has tons of cool and flavorful options. Another book (can't remember which off the top of my head; maybe PHB II?) has racial Paragon Paths that aren't tied to your base class at all. Or if you're interested in multiclassing, if you've taken all four multiclassing feats for a base class, you can use that base class as your Paragon Path, choosing a total of 3 powers at the points you would normally get them from a PP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.
    Optimization Trophies

    I'm forming a team to walk for suicide prevention. Donations or simply spreading the word are both extremely welcome. All donations go to Out of the Darkness, the non-profit organizing the walk.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    @tiornys: I also go back to 2e. Liked 3x better than that. Skipped 4e (no players and no extra money, mostly) and can mostly get 5e to work.

    @MeeposFire. Without any experience DMing 4e, and it being rather unlikely, I can't make any comparisons.

    But, between 3x and 5e, I got better "Balanced" Encounters in the former.

    Spoiler: Cleric List of Options
    Show

    Level 1 At-Will Prayers
    Lance of Faith Cleric Attack 1
    Priestís Shield Cleric Attack 1
    Righteous Brand Cleric Attack 1
    Sacred Flame Cleric Attack 1

    Level 1 Encounter Prayers
    Cause Fear Cleric Attack 1
    Divine Glow Cleric Attack 1
    Healing Strike Cleric Attack 1
    Wrathful Thunder Cleric Attack 1

    Level 1 Daily Prayers
    Avenging Flame Cleric Attack 1
    Beacon of Hope
    Cleric Attack 1
    Cascade of Light Cleric Attack 1
    Guardian of Faith Cleric Attack 1


    ******
    Human: +2 to one Ability Score.
    One Bonus At-Will Power from Class:
    Edit = One Bonus Skill from Class. History
    +1 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses.
    Characteristic: Tolerant.

    Armor Class: 16 (Chainmail)
    (There doesn't seem to be any Starting Equipment, where is Starting Gold and Cost lists?)

    Skills: Religion (plus three) Diplomacy, Insight, Heal.

    Class Feature Prayers
    Channel Divinity: Divine Fortune Cleric Feature
    Channel Divinity: Turn Undead Cleric Feature
    Healing Word Cleric Feature

    *****

    Looks like Iíve mostly already chosen: Devoted Cleric.

    Francis O'Mally. Human (male)
    Cleric (divine leader)
    Deity: Bahamut.

    One Bonus Feat: Human Perseverance +1 to saves.
    First level Feat: Astral Fire Armor of Bahamut

    Point Buy (link) results: 16,14,12,12,11,11.

    Str 12 Dex 11 Con 16 Int 11 Wis 16 Cha 12

    Hit Points: 28 (12 +10 Con score). (+5/lv)
    Bloodied: 14 Hp
    Healing Surges: 7 +3 Con = 10 (+7 hp/surge)

    Skills: (Race) Arcane. (Class) Religion; Insight, Heal, Diplomacy

    Passive Insight: 10 + 0 (half level) + 3 Wis = 13
    Passive Perception: 10 + 0 (half level) + 3 Wis = 13 (?)
    (or are skills without proficiency still usable?)

    Fortitude Defense: +3 Con +1 race = 14
    Reflex Defense: +1 Dex = +1 race = 12
    Will Defense: +2 class + 3 Wis +1 race = 16

    I think I'll go for: team bonuses.

    At Will: Priestís Shield 1[W] + Strength modifier damage = 1d8+1.

    Sacred Flame is +3 vs. Reflex for 1d6 + 3 radiant damage

    Lance of Faith deals 1d8 + Wisdom modifier radiant damage, so your average damage should be 1d8+3 = 8 (+3 from Wisdom,

    Encounter: Healing Strike +3 vs. AC for 2d8 + 1 radiant damage (+1 Strength)

    Daily: Guardian of Faith +3 vs. Fortitude for 1d8 + 3 radiant damage.

    Utility: Divine Fortune and Turn Undead

    Rituals: Gentle Repose and Identify.

    Equipment
    Chainmail +6 AC. 40# 40 gp. -1 check. -1 speed.

    Mace +2 Prof. 5 gp. 6#. 1d8 blunt.
    Versatile +1 DMG when used two handed.

    Light Crossbow +2 Prof. 25 gp. 4#. 1d8 P.

    Holy symbol 10 gp. 1#.

    Standard Adventurer's Kit. 30#. 15 gp.
    Backpack, Bedroll, Flint and Steel, Belt Pouch, 10 days Trail Rations, 50' Hemp Rope, 2 Sunrods, Waterskin.

    Ok. Currently carrying 81#. (Still looking for Encumbrance)
    5 gold left.

    Spoiler: Faux Combat
    Show

    I actually did figure that waking up was all my Cleric could do that round, which is why I put in Monologue-ing Evil Mage.

    Cleric casts Lance of Faith!
    Holy Symbol Implement:
    Half Level 0 + 3 Wis = +3 to hit (?)

    Cleric sees that his spell has failed to kill (assuming hit: 1d8+3 = 8 Average damage) the Evil Mage, but maybe has caused the Minion/s to hesitate in attacking him.

    Making sure that he has his shield mace ready (Chainmail = AC 16) Cleric moves up to the Evil Mage, and tries to knock some Sense into him!

    Half level 0 + 2 Proficiency (mace) + 1 Str = +3 to 1d20 roll. (Still)


    Is the Cleric done?

    If so, I'll start working on figuring out Paragon Level.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-08-17 at 10:04 AM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Looks done-sh. I recommend that you put stuff in your character sheet since there are a few things on it that you'll want to keep track of (like your Bloodied value and Passive Perception) that are generally self-explanatory (the computations are given on the character sheet). This will also get you to compute your actual skill bonuses.

    Your attack bonus for all of your weapon (melee) powers will be +3 as you computed in your vignette and your implement (spell) powers will also be +3 (again as you computed). There is a spot on your character sheet to record this so you don't forget (again it has the math breakdown on the sheet). You will find that your implement powers will be more accurate since AC tends to be a little higher than the other defenses. You should only be using a basic mace attack for opportunity attacks since priest's shield does an attack + a side effect. Likewise, your crossbow will only be used for longer ranges since your implement powers will likely be more accurate, more powerful, and have extra effects.

    I recommend that you play a bit before you try to advance your character to paragon tier since jumping straight there is likely to cause decision paralysis. You will need to advance to level 11, which will involve picking new feats at every even level, new attack powers every odd level (encounter powers at 3 and 7 and daily powers at 5 and 9), utility powers at levels 2 and 6, ability boosts at levels 4 and 8 (and a blanket boost at 10, I think), before you pick your paragon path at 11. As has been said before, you get benefits from your paragon path and those from your class. The paragon path will give you new powers while the class will replace its existing powers at higher levels (similar to retraining).

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    @tiornys: I also go back to 2e. Liked 3x better than that. Skipped 4e (no players and no extra money, mostly) and can mostly get 5e to work.

    @MeeposFire. Without any experience DMing 4e, and it being rather unlikely, I can't make any comparisons.

    But, between 3x and 5e, I got better "Balanced" Encounters in the former.
    The issues with 5e enemy balance is one of the main reasons I haven't tried to DM that edition. As a player I prefer 4E (because I love tactical combat) but am willing to play pretty much any edition of D&D; as a DM I will run 4E, period.

    Spoiler: Faux Combat
    Show

    I actually did figure that waking up was all my Cleric could do that round, which is why I put in Monologue-ing Evil Mage.

    Cleric casts Lance of Faith!
    Holy Symbol Implement:
    Half Level 0 + 3 Wis = +3 to hit (?)

    Cleric sees that his spell has failed to kill (assuming hit: 1d8+1 = 6 Average damage) the Evil Mage, but maybe has caused the Minion/s to hesitate in attacking him.

    Making sure that he has his shield mace ready (Chainmail = AC 16) Cleric moves up to the Evil Mage, and tries to knock some Sense into him!

    Half level 0 + 2 Proficiency (mace) + 1 Str = +3 to 1d20 roll. (Still)
    Lance of Faith deals 1d8 + Wisdom modifier radiant damage, so your average damage should be 1d8+3+1 = 9 (+3 from Wisdom, +1 from Astral Fire). Still probably didn't kill the Evil Mage, but it's more damage than your mace typically does--whether you use a basic melee attack or Priest's Shield, 1[W] + Strength modifier damage is indeed 1d8+1. Similarly, Sacred Flame is +3 vs. Reflex for 1d6 + 4 radiant damage, Healing Strike is +3 vs. AC for 2d8 + 2 radiant damage (+1 Strength, +1 Astral Fire), and Guardian of Faith is +3 vs. Fortitude for 1d8 + 4 radiant damage.

    Is the Cleric done?

    If so, I'll start working on figuring out Paragon Level.
    You're done, but like Jaeda I recommend taking it a little slower than just jumping to paragon. If you can't readily get play experience, maybe try leveling up to 5 or 6.

    @Jaeda, the blanket boost to abilities is at level 11 (and 21).

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

    Join Date
    Sep 2018

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    One nice thing about 4e (that's often house ruled or variant ruled into other editions) is that every time you level up, you can change one decision you made about the character. Power or feat isn't working out like you hoped, or you just found a cooler one in a different book? Wish you had a few more healing encounter powers? Next time you level up, swap one power or feat for another of the same level. Bribing the DM with pizza no longer required (but always appreciated).
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.
    Optimization Trophies

    I'm forming a team to walk for suicide prevention. Donations or simply spreading the word are both extremely welcome. All donations go to Out of the Darkness, the non-profit organizing the walk.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Since this is more if a thought exercise than an attempt at creating actual characters for play, go ahead and jump ahead to paragon. In its own way, it will show how forgiving 4e is when it comes to leveling up and making you plan ahead. Which is to say itís a lot more forgiving than 3e with a lot more choices as you progress than 5e.

    For reference, the universal chart of leveling is found on page 29 of PHB1. Now that we have that to follow along, letís go Paragon. And for the sake of ease, letís do things in lumps rather than individually build up 10 levels.

    First off, thereís your ASIs. You get +1 to two different scores at 4th and again at 8th. Then upon hitting 11th level and, thus, paragon tier, another +1 to all of them.

    Next up is picking a Paragon Path. Occasionally these will have prereqs, but theyíre rarely complicated. Usually itís just race, or requiring training in a skill. None of the four PHB1 cleric paths have any requirements, so pick freely. If you want to multi class, then things get more complex. Once youíve picked your path, note the 2-3 features it gives you, and a new encounter power.

    Next up, letís add feats. So that list of feats that piqued your interest but didnít make the immediate cut. Take five of them. Now, hereís a spot where order of operations can get a little tricky, but this is an exercise in how well this works. Feats rarely require each other as prerequisites but they do often have ability score requirements. Be conscious about which ones you now have access to with your ASIs but donít sweat it. Retraining specifically lets you swap out for feats you qualify for even if you didnít at the time.

    Once youíve done that, pick one from the paragon tier list. Technically you could pick another one from the heroic tier list, but odds are your 7th favorite heroic feat isnít going to be as good as your favorite paragon feat.

    Now that feats are settled, on to powers. You get one from each of the following lists:

    2nd level Utility
    3rd Level Encounter
    5th level Daily
    6th level Utility
    7th level Encounter
    9th level Daily
    10th level Utility

    And once those are recorded, itís on to updating numbers. Add 1/2 level wherever it applies (attacks, defenses, skills, initiative). Note that you do not add 1/2 level to damage. Modify anything affected by your increased ability scores, if you havenít already. Add HP. Clerics get 5/level after first, so thatís a fairly easy add. Then recalculate bloodied value and healing surge value (half and a quarter of your new total, respectively.)

    Now to handle misc items that adjust as you level. Humans donít have any, but some races do. The Dragonborn breath weapon being a PHB1 example. Clerics have a couple, Turn Undead and Healing Word. Damage/healing and burst size for both of those go up by 11th level.

    After that, the next big thing is magic items. Now there are plenty of ways to adjust the game for those who arenít keen on a heavy reliance on magic items. For now, letís stick with baseline expectations for the sake of the exercise. All magic items have a level that corresponds to character levels. PCs will typically have one magic item of their level, one lvl+1 and one lvl-1. So feel free to pick three of those. In particular, look at a weapon, a holy symbol to improve your implement attacks, armor to improve your AC, and a neck item to improve all your other defenses.

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by NomGarret View Post
    After that, the next big thing is magic items. Now there are plenty of ways to adjust the game for those who arenít keen on a heavy reliance on magic items. For now, letís stick with baseline expectations for the sake of the exercise. All magic items have a level that corresponds to character levels. PCs will typically have one magic item of their level, one lvl+1 and one lvl-1. So feel free to pick three of those. In particular, look at a weapon, a holy symbol to improve your implement attacks, armor to improve your AC, and a neck item to improve all your other defenses.
    To be clear here: if you start at level 5, say, youíd get level 6, 5, and 4 items, and a level 4 itemís worth of gold. The standard allotment if youíre adventuring is actually 4 items per 5 levels plus a set amount of gold, and each time you get an item, it would be somewhere from level +1 to level +4. For simplicityís sake, Iíd suggest one item per level, more or less.

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Thanks, folks!!

    Ok, I did borrow the book, and got some things figured out and written down.

    First, I realized that I had made a Mistake, in that in order to have the Armor of Bahamut feat, I couldn't have Astral Fire.

    Everything else is the same, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by NomGarret
    First off, thereís your ASIs. You get +1 to two different scores at 4th and again at 8th. Then upon hitting 11th level and, thus, paragon tier, another +1 to all of them.
    Check.

    Next up is picking a Paragon Path. Occasionally these will have prereqs, but theyíre rarely complicated. Usually itís just race, or requiring training in a skill. None of the four PHB1 cleric paths have any requirements, so pick freely. If you want to multi class, then things get more complex. Once youíve picked your path, note the 2-3 features it gives you, and a new encounter power.
    Radiant Servant looks great.

    Next up, letís add feats. So that list of feats that piqued your interest but didnít make the immediate cut. Take five of them. Now, hereís a spot where order of operations can get a little tricky, but this is an exercise in how well this works. Feats rarely require each other as prerequisites but they do often have ability score requirements. Be conscious about which ones you now have access to with your ASIs but donít sweat it. Retraining specifically lets you swap out for feats you qualify for even if you didnít at the time.

    Once youíve done that, pick one from the paragon tier list. Technically you could pick another one from the heroic tier list, but odds are your 7th favorite heroic feat isnít going to be as good as your favorite paragon feat.
    Right.

    Now that feats are settled, on to powers.

    And once those are recorded, itís on to updating numbers. Add 1/2 level wherever it applies (attacks, defenses, skills, initiative). Note that you do not add 1/2 level to damage. Modify anything affected by your increased ability scores, if you havenít already. Add HP. Clerics get 5/level after first, so thatís a fairly easy add. Then recalculate bloodied value and healing surge value (half and a quarter of your new total, respectively.)
    Defenses are 10 + 5 (half level) + Class + Abilities?

    Now to handle misc items that adjust as you level. Humans donít have any, but some races do. The Dragonborn breath weapon being a PHB1 example.

    Clerics have a couple, Turn Undead and Healing Word. Damage/healing and burst size for both of those go up by 11th level.
    Cool. I'll check those out.

    After that, the next big thing is magic items. Now there are plenty of ways to adjust the game for those who arenít keen on a heavy reliance on magic items. For now, letís stick with baseline expectations for the sake of the exercise. All magic items have a level that corresponds to character levels. PCs will typically have one magic item of their level, one lvl+1 and one lvl-1. So feel free to pick three of those. In particular, look at a weapon, a holy symbol to improve your implement attacks, armor to improve your AC, and a neck item to improve all your other defenses.
    Just to make sure, +1 to two abilities every 4 levels and +1 to all abilities at each Tier? (Paragon and Epic)
    (Answered. Thanks !!)

    <Cleric Move - again !>
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-08-20 at 03:29 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Thanks, folks!!


    I haven't done the adjustments for everything, will work on as I have time.

    Just to make sure, +1 to two abilities every 4 levels and +1 to all abilities at each Tier? (Paragon and Epic)
    +1 to two abilities on the 4s and 8s (i.e. 4, 8, 14, 18, 24, 28) and to all at 11 and 21. If you stick with the same two abilities, they'll get 8 boosts, for a total of +4 to each of their modifiers. Many Epic Destinies also feature a +2 boost to one or two abilities, as well.

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Excession's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Note that from level 13, the encounter and daily powers from your class replace earlier ones. You have to remove a lower level encounter power of your choice when you choose your level 13 encounter power, and a lower level daily for your level 15 daily, etc. You're essentially replacing weaker powers with stronger ones. This doesn't apply to powers from your paragon path or epic destiny. Also, some powers remain relevant and it may be better to not replace them. Cause Fear for example is very good in a melee heavy party as it makes the enemy provoke opportunity attacks, which scale with your allies.

    Also, I would say you're spending too many utility powers on healing. In actual play your two Healing Word uses will be enough for most fights, with maybe Mass Cure Light Wounds being the only power worth a utility slot IMO. Utility powers that can be used once per encounter are often more useful, and more fun because you get to use them more often. Sanctuary (PHB1) at 2, Holy Celerity (Divine Power) at 6, and Recall Ally (Divine Power) or Shielding Word (PHB1) at 10 are all worth looking at I think.

    PHB3 introduces "Skill Powers" which are replacement utility powers you can take instead of your class utility powers, but which require training in a particular skill. There are some interesting choices in the list of powers there.
    Last edited by Excession; 2019-08-18 at 01:27 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    Note that from level 13, the encounter and daily powers from your class replace earlier ones. You have to remove a lower level encounter power of your choice when you choose your level 13 encounter power, and a lower level daily for your level 15 daily, etc. You're essentially replacing weaker powers with stronger ones. This doesn't apply to powers from your paragon path or epic destiny. Also, some powers remain relevant and it may be better to not replace them. Cause Fear for example is very good in a melee heavy party as it makes the enemy provoke opportunity attacks, which scale with your allies.

    Also, I would say you're spending too many utility powers on healing. In actual play your two Healing Word uses will be enough for most fights, with maybe Mass Cure Light Wounds being the only power worth a utility slot IMO. Utility powers that can be used once per encounter are often more useful, and more fun because you get to use them more often. Sanctuary (PHB1) at 2, Holy Celerity (Divine Power) at 6, and Recall Ally (Divine Power) or Shielding Word (PHB1) at 10 are all worth looking at I think.

    PHB3 introduces "Skill Powers" which are replacement utility powers you can take instead of your class utility powers, but which require training in a particular skill. There are some interesting choices in the list of powers there.
    In my experience, fights rarely last longer than 4-5 rounds, so once you hit Paragon tier you'll have enough encounter and daily powers that you will rarely need to use your At-Wills. This means once you have 4 or so, you start replacing them rather than adding even more to the stack and definitely never using them. It's also worth noting that you can always choose to learn lower level powers in place of a new level, though I rarely would.

    As far as power choice, this is an area where in practice you will often build for party synergy as you level. Sure, that's a lot of healing powers, but now the other PCs can turn their attention elsewhere. Now the Fighter can skip the power that lets her spend a healing surge and take the one that grants Combat Advantage, thus letting the Rogue land more Sneak Attacks.

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by NomGarret View Post
    In my experience, fights rarely last longer than 4-5 rounds, so once you hit Paragon tier you'll have enough encounter and daily powers that you will rarely need to use your At-Wills. This means once you have 4 or so, you start replacing them rather than adding even more to the stack and definitely never using them. It's also worth noting that you can always choose to learn lower level powers in place of a new level, though I rarely would.

    As far as power choice, this is an area where in practice you will often build for party synergy as you level. Sure, that's a lot of healing powers, but now the other PCs can turn their attention elsewhere. Now the Fighter can skip the power that lets her spend a healing surge and take the one that grants Combat Advantage, thus letting the Rogue land more Sneak Attacks.
    As a note- this also depends on what kind of powers you have (and this is part of different classes feeling different).

    By way of example- Melee Rangers will often take off-action (meaning non-standard action) attacks for their Encounter powers, because Twin Strike (the Ranger At Will) is so good that a Minor Action Encounter attack + Twin Strike is generally better than their Standard Action Encounter powers. Rogues also end up with some great off-action encounter powers. Warlords have several very good interrupts starting at low levels, and might have a mix of Standard and off-action Encounter powers. Most Controllers, on the other hand, have significantly better Encounter powers than their At Wills, and so will only use At Wills in an unusually long combat. Ditto for Clerics, though if you're using the full set of resources, there's an excellent level 1 Strength based immediate action encounter power (from Dragon magazine) and a strong level 3 Immediate Encounter power (from Heroes of Shadow).

    Ultimately, by level 11, you'll have 4 Encounter attack powers (level 1, 3, 7, and your paragon path one at 11), and 3 Daily attack powers (1, 5, and 9). If you're playing with themes, you might have another. As a Cleric, that means that you'll probably rarely use your at wills, but that's not always so for other classes.

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Excession's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by NomGarret View Post
    As far as power choice, this is an area where in practice you will often build for party synergy as you level. Sure, that's a lot of healing powers, but now the other PCs can turn their attention elsewhere. Now the Fighter can skip the power that lets her spend a healing surge and take the one that grants Combat Advantage, thus letting the Rogue land more Sneak Attacks.
    I find two problems with that. First, there are cleric utility powers that are better at preventing damage than Cure Minor Wounds is at healing, especially when Cure Minor is a daily power and others are encounter.

    Second, having one character do all the healing isn't great synergy in my experience. Characters can be too spread out for powers to reach them, or the cleric can go down in the first round because the enemies are fighting smart. I think if the group needs another one per day heal, having the Fighter spend a feat to multi-class into Warlord (or the Wizard into Cleric, etc.) will always be better than Cure Minor Wounds.

    Choosing only healing spells also locks you out of the more interesting (IMO) game of tactical positioning and interrupts that other utility powers use.
    Last edited by Excession; 2019-08-18 at 05:28 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Don't get me wrong, I certainly think there are better choices. I'm just using this thread as a teaching tool without always going quite so deep. In practice, I would hold off on most higher level choices until we knew what the rest of the party was going to be, at the very least. And even then, I think it's better to make choices as you go rather than pre-build. Treat it as a practice run rather than a serious build, is my point.

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Excession's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by NomGarret View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I certainly think there are better choices. I'm just using this thread as a teaching tool without always going quite so deep. In practice, I would hold off on most higher level choices until we knew what the rest of the party was going to be, at the very least. And even then, I think it's better to make choices as you go rather than pre-build. Treat it as a practice run rather than a serious build, is my point.
    Agreed, making choices as you go, and informed by how the game is going, is the better option.

    I think even the choice of class and role should be done as a group. While a group of four strikers can work, by killing everything before it kills you, a group of four leaders can just be slow and annoying. Looking forward can be useful to make levelling up easier or to make sure you don't miss a pre-req for some nice feat later on, but it doesn't need to be set in stone.

    I also like to pick skills so there isn't much overlap. Three people training Diplomacy, Arcana, or a few others is rarely useful. Having out of combat roles and specialisations can be nice as well as in-combat. That said, leaving all the talking up to a party face can itself get boring; I have had good fun playing a Wizard with no real social skills but who tended to be the first to talk in awkward silences, and tended to be honest to a fault. Based on a few Intimidate rolls she was also quite scary even when not trying to be.
    Last edited by Excession; 2019-08-18 at 07:09 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    (on phone)

    Wow !
    Quite a bit to read, and ponder.

    The Cleric is indeed my first 4e Character, and as such, I fully expect to be informed that there are better options. And I'm very open to suggestions on what to swap out (and for what), and Suggestioned changes for what is currently listed.

    The Cure Line: I read as being "free Healing Surges" and so it made sense for my Cleric to grab those. But, a "prevent damage" power that happens more often (Encounter vs Daily) is a valid choice.

    What Dragon Magazine# is the power found in?

    The other powers and options might need to wait until the books arrive for me to look up.

    Thanks for all the help.
    I'll check in ASAP.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-08-19 at 04:59 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Excession's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    The Cure Line: I read as being "free Healing Surges" and so it made sense for my Cleric to grab those. But, a "prevent damage" power that happens more often (Encounter vs Daily) is a valid choice.

    What Dragon Magazine# is the power found in?
    Not costing a healing surge is a nice feature, but it's not a huge difference. The people most likely to be taking damage will tend to have a decent number of surges. Increasing a character's defences, or moving them out of harms way, can make a bigger difference I think.

    There is also the ritual "Comrades' Succor" from Dragon 380 which can be used to move healing surges around the party. Though you overall lose one healing surge from the party when using it. It might be accurate to say that ritual bends the healing surge economy to breaking point, but it's nothing that an Artificer can't do with their class features. That's a level 1 ritual btw, so you could pick that up using the Cleric's class feature IIRC.

    The powers I listed are all from PHB1 or the splatbook "Divine Power". Skill powers come from PHB3 mostly.
    Last edited by Excession; 2019-08-18 at 09:58 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #85
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Cure is a free surge, effectively. Clerics don't have great U2 selections, but the best might actually be a PHB power- Shield of Faith. Which seems lousy, but it was errataed to a Minor action rather than a Standard. If you pop that early in a combat, you've got a very nice chance of eliminating at least 1 hit against an ally, and possibly more.

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Euphonistan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Cleric is good though I personally prefer warlord or bard though that is more to do with them being more movement focused and more attack granting options (also basic attack options). Cleric has more healing and as I recall defensive buffs.
    A vestige for me "Pyro火gnus Friend of Meepo" by Zaydos.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...5&postcount=26

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    <Cleric Moved - Again !>

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire
    Cleric is good though I personally prefer warlord or bard though that is more to do with them being more movement focused and more attack granting options (also basic attack options). Cleric has more healing and as I recall defensive buffs.
    I'm stuck waiting for the Books to arrive, so my progress in changing the Cleric, much less working through the various Classes is rather slow.

    I would not mind if people wanted to make their own Character/s (showing level progression) and posted them here.

    Using all the books is quite alright, just please remember to list which book something can be found in.

    Spoiler: optional
    Show
    Once there are at least one of each major type, we can have fun (Faux) virtually throwing Monsters at the PC group , so that I (and anyone reading) can get a better picture of how the different powers work, how they can be used in a team, and if there are overlapping powers and boosts for doing so. (try to keep this to minor PbP, or we will most likely need to move it.)

    I suppose that a Battle Area will be needed if we do this, and I suggest a Battleship-like Grid.

    A-T across the top for Columns
    01-20 down the side for Rows

    Anyone going beyond these is considered Out of Bounds, even if they have enough Range to still affect the Battle. This is because it can be confusing for exactly which direction Columns Aa-Ta actually is (Left of A or Right of T?), and what numbers apply for Above Row 01.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-08-24 at 01:15 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    The Cleric is indeed my first 4e Character, and as such, I fully expect to be informed that there are better options. And I'm very open to suggestions on what to swap out (and for what), and Suggestioned changes for what is currently listed.
    Here are my thoughts on your heroic-tier power selections, considering PHB options only:

    Spoiler
    Show
    First off, I want to mention that for most characters in 4E, accuracy is a very high priority. More so than in most editions of D&D.
    Hitting factors into your damage contribution, but far more importantly it also lets you do things besides damage. On average, your encounter powers do cool/powerful things on hits and nothing on misses. If something happens regardless of hitting it's usually not that powerful. Daily powers are better in this regard but there is still often a massive reward for hitting.

    You've chosen to be Wis primary and you've already made the excellent decision to boost that starting stat to 18 (instead of 16 as in your first pass). That fact, plus the fact that your Str is only 11, is why I will almost exclusively be ignoring the Str-based powers.

    Attack Powers:
    At Wills: your options are limited and you've chosen as well as you can here. If you could lose the Str-based power and take a different option (as is possible with other books in play) I would recommend that.

    E1: Healing Strike is Str-based, and therefore significantly less likely to do anything than a Wis-based power. I recommend Divine Glow instead.
    This gives you something Wis-based that is safe to do in melee, it deals a decent amount of damage in an area, and it offers a nice offensive boost to your allies. Cause Fear can be more powerful, but it's trickier to use well and it doesn't help with one of the chronic issues for a Wis-based PHB Cleric (getting trapped in melee).

    D1: Guardian of Faith is strong provided you can combo it with teammates to effectively restrict enemy movement. I'm willing to assume you have a team where this is true--but if not, Beacon of Hope is an excellent and more flexible alternative. Weakened is a very strong effect for proactively preventing damage.

    E3: Daunting Light is a strong choice. Good damage and a decent Effect that happens whether you hit or miss. Even better if you have a Rogue in your party (Rogues care more than anyone else about having combat advantage).

    D5: Spiritual Weapon is a great choice for lots of bonus damage during an encounter. Just be careful about getting stuck in melee, as the repeated attacks will provoke opportunity attacks (because the power is Ranged).

    E7: Because your Charisma is relatively low, I think Searing Light is a much stronger option for you than Break the Spirit. It's a little less damage, but Blinded is a -5 to melee and ranged attacks plus you force the target to grant combat advantage and prevent them from benefiting from combat advantage. That's a much stronger effect than -1 to attacks and well worth the loss of 2 average damage.

    D9: Here's the exception. Divine Power's Effect line might be strong enough to be worth using even though it is Str-based. However, this does give some incentive to want to be maintaining a magical melee weapon in addition to your magical holy symbol, which cuts down on the available wealth you have for other items. Both Flame Strike and Blade Barrier are good alternatives--I think. I don't remember what the powers do in their original form; I only have access to the post-errata versions right now.

    Utility powers:
    U2: I agree with the comments about Shield of Faith being generally better than Cure Light Wounds, especially in the post-errata version where it only costs a minor action.

    U6: Cure Serious Wounds is very strong healing, but it comes at a serious cost of taking your standard action. For that reason I might prefer Bastion of Health even though your Charisma modifier is low--a third minor action healing power can come in very handy. This is a very tough call in a vacuum--group composition and the power choices and playstyles of the other characters would likely form the deciding factor in this decision.

    U10: Ok, Mass Cure Light Wounds is finally a healing power that I think is worth spending a standard action on. That said, Shielding Word is extremely likely to cancel one hit per encounter, which adds up to a lot of damage prevented over the course of a day. You're in good shape either way.

    Given the other choices you've been making so far, it might be worth revisiting your stat line instead of your power selection. You can use both Str-based and Wis-based powers effectively if you start each stat at a minimum of 16 and keep boosting both of them. Here's a possible L1 stat lineup for this:

    Str 16 Con 12 Dex 8 Int 10 Wis 16+2=18 Cha 12

    If you go this route, I would recommend spending a feat on Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword. This gives you a +3 proficiency weapon to help bring up your Str-based accuracy and it comes with a very nice [W] value. Alternatively, use a Dagger and pick your Str-based powers more for their bonuses than for their damage (Dagger is the only +3 proficiency weapon in the PHB that you automatically have proficiency with).

    Advantages of this: 1) you get access to the full PHB power lineup without loss of effectiveness, and 2) you retain good ranged capability while also not being crippled if forced into melee. Disadvantages: your wealth is somewhat constrained by maintaining a magic weapon and holy symbol (until Holy Avenger becomes available in mid-epic tier), your Cha-based riders will be weak, and your stat decisions are very constrained.

    With this approach, you can ignore the objections I raised to Str-based attack powers. The only change I'd recommend to attack powers is taking Righteous Brand instead of Priest's Shield, as +3 (or more) to attack is significantly more powerful than two +1's to AC.

    I can look at paragon/epic tier later. I also intend to post a character or two when I have time.

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Just jumping in on phone for now, I'll be able to do some more with my tablet on Friday.

    @tiornys: those are some nice recommendations. Thanks for the help.

    I'm wondering how you got two 16s, since the Point Buy link only gave me one 16 and a 14 for highest stats, at least not without taking 8s.

    I did notice that you have one 8 in Dex (most likely explains the second 16*) does that count against my AC in heavy armor?

    Ah, reading back
    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath
    If you want to keep things simple, I would just take a basic array (probably 16/16/12/12/10/8)
    So, yeah. I just love my (not Alzhieimers !!) memory !!

    Edit: Best results for Point Buy site
    16, 16, 12, 10, 10, 10

    Str 16 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 16+2= 18 Cha 12

    IDK, 8 Dex doesn't seem to hurt me except in Initiative.
    I'll edit the below a little later this morning.
    Str 16 Dex 08 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 16 + 2 Race = 18 Cha 12

    Thus HP is 22 at 1st level, and only a +1 for Cha based effects.
    Not the best for overall personal health, but that's alright.

    Spoiler: Cleric List of Options
    Show

    Class Feature Prayers
    Channel Divinity: Divine Fortune Cleric Feature
    Channel Divinity: Turn Undead Cleric Feature
    Healing Word Cleric Feature

    Level 1 At-Will Prayers
    Lance of Faith Cleric Attack 1
    Priestís Shield Cleric Attack 1
    Righteous Brand Cleric Attack 1
    Sacred Flame Cleric Attack 1

    Level 1 Encounter Prayers
    Cause Fear Cleric Attack 1
    Divine Glow Cleric Attack 1
    Healing Strike Cleric Attack 1
    Wrathful Thunder Cleric Attack 1

    Level 1 Daily Prayers
    Avenging Flame Cleric Attack 1
    Beacon of Hope
    Cleric Attack 1
    Cascade of Light Cleric Attack 1
    Guardian of Faith Cleric Attack 1


    Human: +2 to one Ability Score.
    One Bonus At-Will Power from Class:
    Edit = One Bonus Skill from Class. Arcana
    +1 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses.
    Characteristic: Tolerant.

    Armor Class: 16 (Chainmail)

    Class Features: Channel Divinity, Healerís Lore, healing word, Ritual Casting.

    Human Cleric
    +2 to one ability.
    +1 Class At-Will power
    +1 Skill (Arcana)
    +1 to all saves.

    Cleric Skills: Religion; Insight, Persuasion, Heal

    Str 11 16 Con 10 Dex 11 08 Int 12 Wis 16 +2 Race = 18 Cha 12

    04 +1 Wis +1 Cha
    08 +1 Wis (20) +1 Cha (14)
    11 +1 all
    14 +1 Str +1 Cha
    18 +1 Str +1 (19) Cha (17)
    21 +1 all (Dex 10)
    24 +1 Con +1 Cha
    28 +1 Con +1 (12) Cha (20)

    NomGarret Feats: You mentioned 5 feats for Hero Tier.
    {H} Human Perseverance
    01 Armor of Bahamut
    02 Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword (tiornys)
    04 Durable
    06 Alertness
    08 Armor Proficiency (Scale)
    10 Armor Proficiency (Plate)

    Fortitude 10 + 0 (half Level) + 2 Con +1 Race = 13
    Reflex 10 + 0 (half Level) + 0 Dex +1 Race = 11
    Will 10 + 0 (half Level) +2 Class + 4 Wis +1 Race = 17

    First Level
    At Will: Priestís Shield; Sacred Flame; and Lance of Faith

    Encounter: Healing Strike

    Daily: Guardian of Faith Beacon of Hope

    Utility: Divine Fortune and Turn Undead

    Rituals: Gentle Repose and Identify
    First Level Equipment:
    Chainmail +6 AC. 40# 40 gp. -1 check. -1 speed.

    Mace +2 Prof. 5 gp. 6#. 1d8 blunt.
    Versatile +1 Dmg when used two handed.

    Light Crossbow +2 Prof. 25 gp. 4#. 1d8 P.

    Holy symbol 10 gp. 1#.

    Standard Adventurer's Kit. 30#. 15 go.
    Backpack, Bedroll, Flint and Steel, Belt Pouch, 10 days Trail Rations, 50' Hemp Rope, 2 Sunrods, Waterskin.

    Ok. Currently carrying 81#.
    5 gold left.

    Spoiler: Heroic Powers
    Show


    2nd level
    Utility: [slCure Light Wounds[/s] Shield of Faith

    3rd Level
    Encounter: Daunting Light

    5th level
    Daily: Spiritual Weapon

    6th level
    Utility: Cure serious Wounds Bastion of Health

    7th level
    Encounter: Break the Spirit Searing Light

    9th level
    Daily: Divine Power Flame Strike

    10th level
    Utility: Mass Cure Light Wounds


    Slowly including Equipment adjustments.
    Spoiler: Heroic Equipment
    Show


    Second
    +1 Holy Symbol; +1 Viscous Mace (Critical = +1d12 damage per plus)

    Third
    +1 amulet of Protection; Gloves of Piercing;

    Fourth
    Wavestrider Boots;

    Fifth
    +1 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor; Everlasting Provisions;

    Sixth
    +2 Holy Symbol

    Seventh
    +2 Amulet of Protection; +2 Viscous Mace (Critical = +2d12 damage)

    Eighth
    Belt of Sacrifice

    Ninth
    +2 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor

    Tenth
    Handy Haversack;


    Got some help from my friend.
    @Excession: But, still need help figuring out what Paragon Powers replace which Heroic Powers.

    Feats
    11 Combat Anticipation
    12 Danger Sense
    14 Devastating Critical
    16 Mettle
    18 Uncanny Dodge
    20 Devastating Critical

    Spoiler: Paragon Powers
    Show

    Thirteen
    Encounter: Inspiring Strike Healing Strike traded for Mantle of Glory

    Fifteen
    Daily: Seal of Warding

    Sixteen
    Utility: Divine Armor Hallowed Ground
    +2 AC and DR 5 to all allies for the encounter is nice, but +2 to saves, all defenses, and Attacks for the encounter is a little better, to my thinking.

    Seventeen
    Encounter: Thunderous Word
    Iíd consider Enthrall if the immobilized effect was applied for all allies, but it looks like the targets are only unable to attack the caster, if said is successful in beating their (Wis vs) Will Defense.

    Nineteen
    Daily: Holy Wrath


    Spoiler: Paragon Equipment
    Show


    Eleventh
    +3 Holy Symbol; Sending Stones (pair)

    Twelve
    +3 Amulet of Protection;

    Thirteen
    +3 Periapt of Wisdom; +3 Viscous Mace (Critical = +3d12 damage)

    Fourteen


    Fifteen
    +3 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor

    Sixteen
    +4 Amulet of Protection;

    Seventeen
    +4 Holy Symbol; +4 Viscous Mace (Critical = +4d12 damage)

    Eighteen
    Ring of Protection

    Nineteen
    Helm of Command;

    Twenty
    +4 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor


    Feats
    21 Epic Resurgence
    22 Blind-Fight
    24 Triumphant Attack
    26 Light Shield Proficiency
    28 Heavy Shield Proficiency
    30 Font of Radiance

    Even further down the list, what Paragon powers are traded for Epic powers
    Spoiler: Epic Powers
    Show

    Twenty-two
    Utility: Purify

    Twenty-three
    Encounter: Astral Blades of Death

    Twenty-five
    Daily: Seal of Protection

    Twenty-seven
    Encounter: Sunburst

    Twenty-nine
    Daily: Astral Storm


    Spoiler: Epic Equipment
    Show

    Twenty-one
    +5 Holy Symbol;

    Twenty-two
    +5 Amulet of Protection; +5 Viscous Mace (Critical = +5d12 damage)

    Twenty-three

    Twenty-four
    Ring of Regeneration; +5 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor

    Twenty-five
    +6 Amulet of Protection;

    Twenty-six
    +6 Holy Symbol;

    Twenty-seven
    +6 Viscous Mace (Critical = +6d12 damage)

    Twenty-eight

    Twenty-nine
    +6 Angelsteel (Chainmail) Armor

    Thirty
    +6 Scarab of Invulnerability


    Ability Scores done.
    Next up: Figuring out Powers.
    After: Equipment changes.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-08-24 at 01:27 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Keledrath's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    GMT -5
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fun Learning 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    I did notice that you have one 8 in Dex (most likely explains the second 16*) does that count against my AC in heavy armor?
    No, because each defense is modified by the HIGHER or two stats
    AC: Dex/Int (or none when using heavy armor)
    Fortitude: Str/Con
    Reflex: Dex/Int (regardless of armor)
    Will: Wis/Cha

    So if you weren't in heavy armor, AC would be modified by the higher of Dex or Int. Since you can only reduce 1 ability score below 10, the lowest possible ability score modifier between these two is +0 (8/10).
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

    Kelon by nijashe

    Extended Sig

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •