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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Rich people have innumerable ways of saving money in the long run by spending more money upfront. It is always solid economic advice (to e.g. buy a car that will have less overall cost of ownership over the long run but higher purchasing price), but useless to those not in a position to follow it (e.g. can only afford a third-hand clunker).

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    This can be true, but it isn't always true. Often things cost more for reasons that might not mean that they're more durable. Things that have more features cost more for example, but if you only need a single feature, you're literally throwing away money if you're buying something more expensive overall, and it may even work more poorly for you in the long run. Cars tend to last around the same amount of time generally if they're maintained about the same, a BMW that costs you tens of thousands will probably last as long as the Toyota you bought for a fraction of that price, because not all of the value is in how long it lasts. And the BMW will likely have a much higher cost of ownership.

    I own a truck, it was worth probably more than my parent's house when it was new. It's not cheaper than a small car would be, in terms of ownership costs, maintenance is more expensive (significantly so), tires are more expensive, everything is more expensive. Because that's how that works out. Generally speaking rich people do not always buy things that are quality in terms of how long they will last.

    For example, I have to spend around two-hundred bucks every months on boots, that's the nature of my work. I cannot buy boots that are cheaper (or they'll not even last a month), so I need to fork over the cash, but buying more expensive boots won't provide a significant advantage for me. I have a tool-belt that's not terribly expensive, because in my particular field a three-hundred dollar Occidental would just be throwing money away.
    Last edited by AMFV; 2019-08-21 at 10:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    It's a really weird place for me to be in. I never expected it from my life (both because of the head injury and for having peeled my drunk *** off the pavement and gotten my life turned around just 15 years ago). I've wanted to talk about how weird it feels, but it seems impossible to do without looking like you are bragging or something.
    Clearly you should be holding self-help seminars at $250 per person and $35k for the next session.

  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    The wisdom that better made things are more expensive isn't a bad one though, nor is it a bad idea to buy things that will last rather than spending more money on things that won't.
    Sure, there's probably a correlation between the durability of a product and its cost. But it does not follow that the degree of increased reliability outweighs the increased cost. Whether it does or not will of course vary, but in my experience I think buying cheaper products and replacing them more frequently works out less expensive than buying an expensive item and expecting it to last.

    That's putting aside the degree to which, in our modern consumer driven society, lots of people tend to replace products long before they have worn out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Liquor Box, you and I have never seen eye to eye, so I am giving a fair warning: I am not going to be discussing this with you.
    I find this assertion strangely incongruent with the fact that you do go on to reply to my post below. II will rebut, and brace myself for the disappointment of you not replying to my rebuttal .

    The TCO of a vehicle is not, as you seem to imply "purchase cost - sale price + generous amount for maintenance". It includes the actual maintenance, taxes and insurance of the vehicle, i.e. the yearly costs. All of which are much higher than purchase cost over ten years, and all of which grow year over year, and which are significantly higher after the ten year mark. They in fact dwarf the purchase cost. I cannot even find the TCO for 10-15 year old vehicles, but even by the 5 year mark, for a Ford Fiesta, the yearly costs are $5k, so by the 10th year, we'd be looking likely at more like $8k, so you'll be spending more on maintenance than you paid for the vehicle, and only gets worse every year on out. While the person that purchased the vehicle new spent more up front, but their yearly costs are so much lower they end up spending less overall.
    Your mistaken here because you've misunderstood the cost to own estimate you have linked to. The maintenance for the listed vehicle is not $5k per year, but an estimate $5k over the next 5 year period. If you scroll down on that page you will see the yearly estimated maintenance cost for year 1 is $807.

    You've also missed the point on depreciation (which is cost less sale price, as you put it). The depreciation is low for the $5,000 car you link to because its purchase price is low - that's the point you minimise your loss on depreciation by buying a cheaper car.

    Compare it with a near new car of the same make and model (a 2018 Fiesta) for close to $15k (linked below) and you will see that the depreciation is now over 10k, and is by far the largest cost associated with the vehicle. Of note to our central disagreement you will see that the total cost to own the newer and more expensive Fiesta, is greater than the total cost to own the older and cheaper Fiesta (at least according to Edmunds' estimate).

    You also mention insurance - that is another cost in favour of buying a cheaper car - insurance costs are higher for more expensive cars.

    https://www.edmunds.com/ford/fiesta/2018/cost-to-own/

    And, to tie it back to Vimes' boot theory, over those ten years the rich person has had a nice, reliable car, while the poor person has had to deal with breakdowns, lost productivity, bad driving experience, etc.
    Yes, you are correct here. It may be more enjoyable to own the nicer car - it's just not cheaper in the long run in most cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Secondhand is not the same as the 'clunkers' that many economically disadvantaged individuals are forced by circumstance to buy, and the maintenance situation they have to keep. I never buy a car new, but I have the luxury of continuous preventative maintenance and making arrangements to have things fail (actually, usually getting replaced before they fail). In relative terms, there is nothing more expensive, in terms of moneys (again in proportion to income) and efforts, than a sudden expense (and change of plans, missed work, etc.) because of your car failing at an inopportune moment. The concepts you are referencing are not wrong, but they don't really represent the experience of the people we are discussing.
    As to the sorts of people who we were talking about _ replied to Grey Wolf who contrasted a "Rich Person" with someone who google tells me is a police captain (so not someone living in desolate poverty).

    As my post above to Grey Wolf indicates, a $5k 6yo used car appears to cost less over time than a $15k 1yo used car. It is difficult to find objective information on the cost of owning a very cheap car (like less the $1k), but having owned a couple of such cars myself my experience is that they are still cheaper than relative new cars. It makes sense too - a $10k car might depreciate $1k in a year. If your whole car is worth $1k, even if it breaks down in a year you could simply replace it and not have paid more than the person with the $10k used car did.

    But you may be right that there's a sweet spot somewhere between 1k and 10k.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    They are. I'm trying to find the clip (or it has been parts of several) where John Oliver (I think it was) goes through the cost of being poor. I so far found a clip where he is talking about pay-day loans, but am not sure if that's where it is brought up.

    The gist of it really is, pay your bills on time. Late fees and interest racks up firce. For poor people that's not always an option, but every deferred bill costs you more. Pay a $10 bill late and get slapped with a $5 surcharge. Well now you got to pay that $5 and the next $10 is $15 but you already were on the edge with $10. It's easy to get into a negative spiral, and that's where the hidden cost of pay-day lending kicks in. If you want to borrow money the poorer you are the worse a rate you'll get. Literally, you cannot afford to borrow cheaply.

    Basically, it is expensive to be poor. And without going into politics... there are a lot of factors feeding into povetry strengthening the issues around cashflow problems.
    I do agree that if a person is unable to avoid incurring credit, then interest and fees are going to make things more expensive than if they had bought it outright. Although, I am not sure that poor people generally incur more credit (even relative to their income) than middle class people.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2019-08-22 at 07:28 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Generally not. Nobody's willing to lend poor people money.

    And you get credit for the depreciation on your taxes. In fact, if you earn more you get more because of the means testing. For poorer people, that means they often can't claim depreciation at all, while the rich often get bonus depreciation.

    The general guide in life is that the game is rigged in the rich's favor.

  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    As Jon Stewart said, the best place to live in any time period is in a rich person's house.

    I grew up in a relatively poor neighborhood, the kind with drug houses and gang wars. The thing where having a bit more would save a lot was food in my experience. Everyone made "thing in a box" so most of the neighborhood was overweight, and spare cash was too low to buy bulk foods that would aave money.

    Spending $5 on a bunch of mac and cheese makes sense when you only have $5, but if you had $20 you could get a combination of dried beans, potatoes, flour and eggs that would cost far less per calorie and be healthier.

    You would also need to know how to cook first, which back then wasn't a given.
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  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    You would also need to know how to cook first, which back then wasn't a given.
    And have the time. Boxed food can be heated in 5 minutes. Mac & cheese (at least the recipe I got from Alton Brown, after I learnt of Mac & Cheese from Heroes "this is what Americans eat when they want to commit slow suicide" - best line of the show) takes one and a half to two hours. Poor people with two jobs don't have time for that. They are exhausted, they simply can't afford to put 2 hours into feeding themselves.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-08-22 at 12:33 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    And can't afford to hire someone to do that for them.

    Actually, this is a recent problem. It used to be that you had multi-generational homes, so while everyone else was out working the fields or whatever, those too old or too young for that did the housework, including the cooking.

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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    Clearly you should be holding self-help seminars at $250 per person and $35k for the next session.
    If these "gurus" were honest, these seminars wouldn't exist, they'd instead have a business model where they create corporations for their seminar pupils and retain 20% ownership, and then encourage the pupils to go out and use these entities to apply their methods (having the pupils sign something by which they allow themselves to be sued if they are ever found using anything other than that entity for investment while the deal's ongoing).
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    If these "gurus" were honest, these seminars wouldn't exist, they'd instead have a business model where they create corporations for their seminar pupils and retain 20% ownership, and then encourage the pupils to go out and use these entities to apply their methods (having the pupils sign something by which they allow themselves to be sued if they are ever found using anything other than that entity for investment while the deal's ongoing).
    What about this is distinct from the run of the mill practice of creating a corporation, having on-the-job training, and having non-compete clauses? Seems like what you are proposing is something that already happens all the time.

  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    That would be the point, yes. The "gurus" are not doing that.

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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    As a preface, to be clear, I am not suggesting that there there are no advantages to being rich, or even that wealth and poverty are not somewhat entrenched. I am only saying that I think it is a widely held misconception that it usually makes economic sense to buy a product toward the upper end of the price range in the hope it lasts longer. Instead I think it usually makes better economic sense to buy a product toward the lower end of the price range because even if it does not last as long (and it often will), having to replace it a bit sooner still works out better.

    I think the misconception springs from marketing from sellors seeking to increase demand for their higher margin products, and also from people using as an internal rationalisation for spending more to buy the more upmarket product which they also desire for reasons other than reliability.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    And you get credit for the depreciation on your taxes. In fact, if you earn more you get more because of the means testing. For poorer people, that means they often can't claim depreciation at all, while the rich often get bonus depreciation.
    Where I am from depreciation on personal vehicles is not tax deductible. If it is tax deductible where you come from, then surely maintenance (the main expense that is higher for an older vehicle) is also tax deductible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I grew up in a relatively poor neighborhood, the kind with drug houses and gang wars. The thing where having a bit more would save a lot was food in my experience. Everyone made "thing in a box" so most of the neighborhood was overweight, and spare cash was too low to buy bulk foods that would aave money.

    Spending $5 on a bunch of mac and cheese makes sense when you only have $5, but if you had $20 you could get a combination of dried beans, potatoes, flour and eggs that would cost far less per calorie and be healthier.

    You would also need to know how to cook first, which back then wasn't a given.
    Are you saying that you could not buy anything cheaper from the supermarket than you got buying takeaways? Where I live, there are canned meals in the supermarket that cost less than a dollar (and are healthier than takeaways). Also, given we were talking in the context of car ownership (cars costing at least hundreds of dollars), people in that economic situation must have had $20 at some point, whcih they could have spent on the bulk foods you mention.

    If takeaways or ready heated meals are more prevalent in low social economic areas, I suggest that it is not because that is all people can afford, but because of other social factors (which may be related to wealth). That is, more single parent families, more occasions where both parents need to work, and more shift workers meaning that spending the time cooking for a family is more difficult.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2019-08-23 at 10:24 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    And the aforementioned lack of training in how to actually cook. In my job, I frequently find people who can't follow the simplistic directions on the back of a box meal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    What about this is distinct from the run of the mill practice of creating a corporation, having on-the-job training, and having non-compete clauses? Seems like what you are proposing is something that already happens all the time.
    My point was that instead of their current business model where they charge upfront for "knowledge" then wash their hands of the results after they got paid, it would be much more honest to instead give away the knowledge to an interested audience in exchange for being later owed a chunk of the wealth their pupils will create thanks to them.

    A natural reaction IMO to anyone telling you "pay me $30,000 and I'll tell you things that will make you a multimillionaire" would be to reply "tell me those things for free right now, and I'll sign rock solid agreements in which I promise to give you $1,000,000 when I'm a multimillionaire".

    If they have any faith in their methods, the latter is much more lucrative for them too. The one and only reason to prefer the money upfront is that they're just too aware the results won't be as advertised.
    Last edited by lio45; 2019-08-24 at 12:23 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    This can be true, but it isn't always true.
    Minor nitpick, but wasn't the point of the original comment that wealthier people have economically efficient options in the form of putting up more cash up front in order to reduce costs over time? It's a good point that not all expensive things are high quality things, but your post does largely seem to be a refutation of a straw man.

    Grey Wolf seems to be drawing a fairly low threshold of "rich" but it seemed pretty clearly implied in his post that he wasn't talking about buying a Tesla Roadster or President Trump's gold-plated yacht being more economically sound than buying a less flamboyant sedan or small boat. Since he specifically mentioned "a third-hand clunker" it seemed pretty clear that the idea was that with more money up front, you could buy, for example, one of the more reliable Honda models that can easily last fifteen or twenty years without radical repairs or extraordinary maintenance, rather than buying a cheap Kia or a used car with a questionable service record that will almost certainly start breaking down years before the reliable new car does. Yes, a rich person can also buy a BMW or a Fiat, where they'll be paying more at the front end and over the lifetime of the car, but that's their choice. They're not being tricked or forced by circumstances into making a long-term costly decision--they're specifically deciding to do so because they care about other things (performance, prestige, etc.) more than they need to save money.

    For that matter, if you don't try to cut corners on maintenance (spacing out oil changes too much, for instances), you can squeeze a few more years out of a car, but it's often hard for poorer people to make that choice. Most lower income people know exactly how costly the loan options available to them are, so it's hard to make the decision to take a payday loan in order to do routine maintenance that will probably save them money years down the line, which often means that they are forced to take that bigger loan years later.

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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    Minor nitpick, but wasn't the point of the original comment that wealthier people have economically efficient options in the form of putting up more cash up front in order to reduce costs over time? It's a good point that not all expensive things are high quality things, but your post does largely seem to be a refutation of a straw man.

    Grey Wolf seems to be drawing a fairly low threshold of "rich" but it seemed pretty clearly implied in his post that he wasn't talking about buying a Tesla Roadster or President Trump's gold-plated yacht being more economically sound than buying a less flamboyant sedan or small boat. Since he specifically mentioned "a third-hand clunker" it seemed pretty clear that the idea was that with more money up front, you could buy, for example, one of the more reliable Honda models that can easily last fifteen or twenty years without radical repairs or extraordinary maintenance, rather than buying a cheap Kia or a used car with a questionable service record that will almost certainly start breaking down years before the reliable new car does. Yes, a rich person can also buy a BMW or a Fiat, where they'll be paying more at the front end and over the lifetime of the car, but that's their choice. They're not being tricked or forced by circumstances into making a long-term costly decision--they're specifically deciding to do so because they care about other things (performance, prestige, etc.) more than they need to save money.

    For that matter, if you don't try to cut corners on maintenance (spacing out oil changes too much, for instances), you can squeeze a few more years out of a car, but it's often hard for poorer people to make that choice. Most lower income people know exactly how costly the loan options available to them are, so it's hard to make the decision to take a payday loan in order to do routine maintenance that will probably save them money years down the line, which often means that they are forced to take that bigger loan years later.
    Yes that was my reading too, and I was about to post something along those lines.

    It is a bit like when I bought my first car. 2 years ago. I've never had a need for one, so I didn't own one. Saved me a lot of money in insurance, gas and taxes am sure. Since I knew am not driving it a lot I didn't want to spend that much on it. I was looking at used cars around 5k. Most of those were pretty worn and I don't know how much problems they'll give me. During one of the session at the cardealer after reluctantly admitting I need to be looking at a more expensive option I settled for a car for twice what I wanted to pay, that checked all the boxes for not having been driven too much and been maintained properly.
    The point being, that was an option I had. I could stretch my budget to buy peace of mind.

    Similarly, a friend and I were talking about electric cars, and I wanted to get one but that just didn't end up in a reasonable cost/benefit area IMO. He explained how they'd been doing the calculations and a guy who drove 50kms to work every day (a colleauge of my friend's) would within 5 years (something like that) save the purchasing cost of a second hand electric car in fuel costs. Not in the least because they are able to charge the car at their place of work, for free (though even doing it at home ends up much cheaper than gas). To do that you need to be in a socio-economic class a bit higher than living on minimum wage usually. I doubt McDonalds in the US has that option to employees (I doubt they do even in Sweden and they are making a big deal of being the most wide-spread car-recharging network in the country). That's another less tangible way "wealth" allows you more options to live cheaper.

    A lot of it boils down to "upfront is cheaper then small regular payments". If you bought a shirt, say a working shirt, so you have to, it's not a "poor is dumb buying stuff can't afford" situation. Upfront it is $200 (it's extra super tough wearing) but that's too much. You can however make 12 easy monthly payments of $20, well "easy", you are working so it checks out but you are only eating ramen noodles the rest of the year. Ofc that's when you need the shoes or pants. We can't all afford to pony up the cash for a place to live, so we rent. It's what keeps lio45 in toast and marmelade. Some can. Some could have and regret in hindsight they didn't buy an apprtment in the town they studied when they started college instead after graduating with a PhD. In my defence I wasn't planning on staying that long (and the "campus" housing was exceptionally cheap). But again, I had the option. Not all choices are good ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    If they have any faith in their methods, the latter is much more lucrative for them too. The one and only reason to prefer the money upfront is that they're just too aware the results won't be as advertised.
    You could argue "a dollar today is worth more than 10 tomorrow". And of course they are being very fair to you letting you keep all that future money you gonna earn for yourself so you are working for yourself and not them.
    The fact that your version would mean they got absolutely nothing at all has no bearing on the matter.....
    Last edited by snowblizz; 2019-08-26 at 07:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    Yes that was my reading too, and I was about to post something along those lines.

    It is a bit like when I bought my first car. 2 years ago. I've never had a need for one, so I didn't own one. Saved me a lot of money in insurance, gas and taxes am sure. Since I knew am not driving it a lot I didn't want to spend that much on it. I was looking at used cars around 5k. Most of those were pretty worn and I don't know how much problems they'll give me. During one of the session at the cardealer after reluctantly admitting I need to be looking at a more expensive option I settled for a car for twice what I wanted to pay, that checked all the boxes for not having been driven too much and been maintained properly.
    The point being, that was an option I had. I could stretch my budget to buy peace of mind.
    Why did you get the impression that the car dealer was reluctant? All else being equal, surely he would want to sell you the more expensive vehicle.

    The Edmunds analysis that Greywolf and I linked to suggests that the 5k car would have been good value for money in terms of total costs. This is probably even more true for you - because when you don't drive much your maintenance bill will be lower, but the depreciation cost wont reduce much.

    I think you are right, that what you bought was peace of mind, most likely not a car which will cost you less.

    Similarly, a friend and I were talking about electric cars, and I wanted to get one but that just didn't end up in a reasonable cost/benefit area IMO. He explained how they'd been doing the calculations and a guy who drove 50kms to work every day (a colleauge of my friend's) would within 5 years (something like that) save the purchasing cost of a second hand electric car in fuel costs. Not in the least because they are able to charge the car at their place of work, for free (though even doing it at home ends up much cheaper than gas). To do that you need to be in a socio-economic class a bit higher than living on minimum wage usually. I doubt McDonalds in the US has that option to employees (I doubt they do even in Sweden and they are making a big deal of being the most wide-spread car-recharging network in the country). That's another less tangible way "wealth" allows you more options to live cheaper.
    This may be true, but it's an edge case. Most people don't have a 100km round trip to and from work each day.

    Even then, I'm not sure the maths work out. For a Toyota Corolla (an efficient car but by no means the most efficient) it would cost USD$5 for the round trip. Assuming he works five days a weeek, 50 weeks a year that's a fuel cost of $1250 per year or $6,250 over 5 years. Would that cover the purchase cost of a second hand electric car, which would not require battery maintenance (notoriously expensive) within 5 years.

    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Powe...la&srchtyp=ymm (note that 100km is about 64 miles - as such a Corolla that gets 33mpg, would require two gallons for the trip).


    The point is that while a lot of people think that paying more upfront will save them in the long run, when you examine actual examples that most often (not always) doesn't work out to be the case.

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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Cars are probably a bad example here, because they naturally depreciate quickly and a lot of the money is in the badge. Better examples might be certain types of clothes, or furniture.

    I have a suit that belonged to my father, and his father before him. I don't know how much it cost, but it's tailored if not fully bespoke, so it can't have been cheap. It's probably about eighty years old, and it's fine. Meanwhile, I have a suit I bought last year for 100 and it's already wearing out. The older suit was certainly much more expensive when it was bought, but in price per wear it's almost certainly been better value in the long run. I have a pair of shoes of similar vintage. They need re-soling every once in a while but that works out cheaper than buying a new pair.

    Especially for me, because, get this - it didn't cost me anything. My family just had it and didn't need it any more so they gave it to me. Most of the best furniture my parents own belonged to their parents and will in due course belong to me, if I want it.

    This is the real entrenchment of wealth inequality. The good stuff never wears out and consequently pays off across several lifetimes, making it much better value. My parents aren't exactly rich but they're sufficiently comfortable that my life has been a lot easier as a result and I haven't had to buy things that I otherwise might have done, which has saved me money, and a lot of that is because they (or their parents) made good investments in good quality products a long time ago. And for the actual rich, this factor is magnified.
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  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    Cars are probably a bad example here, because they naturally depreciate quickly and a lot of the money is in the badge. Better examples might be certain types of clothes, or furniture.

    I have a suit that belonged to my father, and his father before him. I don't know how much it cost, but it's tailored if not fully bespoke, so it can't have been cheap. It's probably about eighty years old, and it's fine. Meanwhile, I have a suit I bought last year for 100 and it's already wearing out. The older suit was certainly much more expensive when it was bought, but in price per wear it's almost certainly been better value in the long run. I have a pair of shoes of similar vintage. They need re-soling every once in a while but that works out cheaper than buying a new pair.

    Especially for me, because, get this - it didn't cost me anything. My family just had it and didn't need it any more so they gave it to me. Most of the best furniture my parents own belonged to their parents and will in due course belong to me, if I want it.

    This is the real entrenchment of wealth inequality. The good stuff never wears out and consequently pays off across several lifetimes, making it much better value. My parents aren't exactly rich but they're sufficiently comfortable that my life has been a lot easier as a result and I haven't had to buy things that I otherwise might have done, which has saved me money, and a lot of that is because they (or their parents) made good investments in good quality products a long time ago. And for the actual rich, this factor is magnified.
    That's an amazing suit. I have worn suits most days for the last 12 years. Those suits have ranged in price from about $150 to about $1000, and they have consistently worn out in about 2 or 3 years (being rotated with other suits) - the determining factor in longevity being how many spare pairs of pants you buy.

    So my anecdotal experience is different from yours in this regard. Furniture is interesting, because (as you say), it might indeed last nearly forever with maintenance (recovering etc), so ll become value for money if you look at it across a long enough timeframe (longer than a single person's life).

    In terms of products like shoes and stuff, if our anecdotal experiences and impressions are different we could always try and search out some objective evidence - I would be surprised if the question of the long term costs of cheaper consumer items vs more expensive consumer items hasn't been the subject of some study at some stage.

    I actually don't think that the real entrenchment of wealth inequality is about hand me down clothes and furniture though. For the rich (not just upper middle class but genuinely wealthy) inherited money and other property (moreso shares and real property and less so clothes and furniture) probably plays a role. But between the middle class and the lower class, I think the entrenchment arises more from being able to afford access to education and other things which are building blocks to middle class success. Beyond that, it is less tangible factors like parental role modelling.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2019-08-26 at 11:13 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #379
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    The furniture one drives me crazy. My grandparents had the same couch for 40 years, then gave it to my parents. They used it for 2 and decides they didn't like the cloth so they gave it away. They have broken two couches since in order to save on the $ to reupholster that couch. The guy they gave it to on craigslist told them he has redone several of that type for clients and decided he wanted one himself because they last forever.
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  20. - Top - End - #380
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    Minor nitpick, but wasn't the point of the original comment that wealthier people have economically efficient options in the form of putting up more cash up front in order to reduce costs over time? It's a good point that not all expensive things are high quality things, but your post does largely seem to be a refutation of a straw man.
    The point I was getting at was that more expensive items are not necessarily better quality in terms of their ability to last long periods of time. And rich people don't always buy things that are more durable or have better ROI for them. I think that unless you are really dirt poor, you have some ability to choose between options that are longer lasting or compare that with some other advantage. But in the end my point is that it's mostly choice at anything ex

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    Grey Wolf seems to be drawing a fairly low threshold of "rich" but it seemed pretty clearly implied in his post that he wasn't talking about buying a Tesla Roadster or President Trump's gold-plated yacht being more economically sound than buying a less flamboyant sedan or small boat. Since he specifically mentioned "a third-hand clunker" it seemed pretty clear that the idea was that with more money up front, you could buy, for example, one of the more reliable Honda models that can easily last fifteen or twenty years without radical repairs or extraordinary maintenance, rather than buying a cheap Kia or a used car with a questionable service record that will almost certainly start breaking down years before the reliable new car does. Yes, a rich person can also buy a BMW or a Fiat, where they'll be paying more at the front end and over the lifetime of the car, but that's their choice. They're not being tricked or forced by circumstances into making a long-term costly decision--they're specifically deciding to do so because they care about other things (performance, prestige, etc.) more than they need to save money.
    For the same money you could buy that Honda though, you could put a downpayment on a ridiculous sportscar, or score a lot of heroin (and then buy a clunker), The point is that those choices exist all the way on down the line into people who are really poor. You get less choices there, but unless you are at abject poverty you often still have to make choices. And you don't always know about the value of those choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    For that matter, if you don't try to cut corners on maintenance (spacing out oil changes too much, for instances), you can squeeze a few more years out of a car, but it's often hard for poorer people to make that choice. Most lower income people know exactly how costly the loan options available to them are, so it's hard to make the decision to take a payday loan in order to do routine maintenance that will probably save them money years down the line, which often means that they are forced to take that bigger loan years later.
    To be fair though, if you're driving a clunker, typically the solution is to dump it and get another one. As far as payday loans, most people I knew that had to take those out had made some bad choices prior to that.
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  21. - Top - End - #381
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    I went to my 4th grader's open house, and her teacher is married to a teacher, and they spent the summer going to her in-laws' beach-houses . . . as is plural beach houses. One in Ohio and one in Main. Not a shabby inheritance coming there way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    And can't afford to hire someone to do that for them.

    Actually, this is a recent problem. It used to be that you had multi-generational homes, so while everyone else was out working the fields or whatever, those too old or too young for that did the housework, including the cooking.
    This is one reason why some cultures thrive. There is a group of Boat-People from, I think, the Philippians. Every-dammed-body lives in small multi-generational boat. So when they come over here, a small apartment is spacious, they do not mind sharing space, and as a result they save a crazy amount of money.
    Last edited by darkrose50; 2019-08-30 at 07:25 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #382
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by darkrose50 View Post
    I went to my 4th grader's open house, and her teacher is married to a teacher, and they spent the summer going to her in-laws' beach-houses . . . as is plural beach houses. One in Ohio and one in Main. Not a shabby inheritance coming there way.
    Depends on how many children the in-law's have. And what percentage of their monies they've spent on those beach houses.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkrose50 View Post
    This is one reason why some cultures thrive. There is a group of Boat-People from, I think, the Philippians. Every-dammed-body lives in small multi-generational boat. So when they come over here, a small apartment is spacious, they do not mind sharing space, and as a result they save a crazy amount of money.
    But to do that you also have to live in a tiny apartment. If you're willing to make enormous sacrifices to have (slightly) more money you're going to have more money. But there's a point where you have to ask yourself "Is living in a tiny apartment with twelve other people really worth an extra couple of hundred dollars a month" and "If I'm living like I'm poor as anything, does it matter if I have money in the bank?"
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  23. - Top - End - #383
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    For the same money you could buy that Honda though, you could put a downpayment on a ridiculous sportscar,
    I don't disagree with that.

    or score a lot of heroin (and then buy a clunker),
    While strictly true, I think that the focus of Greywolf's point was on people who are poor because they literally couldn't make enough money to do more than live hand to mouth, and not fully rational economic actors who made the morally culpable decision to mortgage their future for a heroine addiction. (or whatever implication you're trying to make with this example.)

    The point is that those choices exist all the way on down the line into people who are really poor. You get less choices there, but unless you are at abject poverty you often still have to make choices.
    I disagree with this though. I'm not really against the straw man argument you were arguing about--as I said previously, I do think that you were sharing perfectly valid assertions. Where I disagreed was that in the context in which you shared your assertions, you were pretty strongly overstating the extent to which these choices really exist all down the line.

    Plus, you're simply mistaken. Yes, "choices exist all the way on down the line into people who are really poor." But at some level, the really good choices don't exist. If you've got a few thousand dollars of income to spare, and no way to get decent financing, you can't buy a new, reliable car, period. You can try to buy a used one in decent shape, but the used car market is largely free market driven (with some distortion from the lemon paradox.) This means that theoretically, you can spend your $5000 on a used flashy sports car or on a used, reliable car with a Kelly Blue Book value of $5000. In practice, however, almost nobody with a very old, but still reliably maintained Honda Accord is going to let that car go for such a small price. Or, for that matter, any other used car that's expected to have a lot of life left in it. Most likely, anything that is being sold for such a low price is being sold cheap for a reason. The flashy sports car is going for that low precisely because it's already towards the end of its reliable lifespan.

    I suppose you're technically correct (the best kind of correct) in that the really poor people do have choices: They can buy the cheap car that will probably break down in a year, they can buy a very old car from a reliable model that will also break down because it was rebuilt after an accident, or they can buy a really cheap clunker and a bunch of heroine. However, you seem to be missing Greywolf's original point: That below a certain threshold of poverty, the decent choices are no longer available, and only more costly choices exist.

    The car thing is one specific example we've all sort of fixated upon, but the same trends apply to many other areas. For example, financial services and lending. We've discussed the most predatory examples of finance, but even if you understand how to make the "smart" choices, credit tends to cost more, even from reputable lenders, when you have little collateral and a mediocre to bad credit score. Even getting your paycheck hits a major inflection point at a certain level of poverty: If you have enough disposable income to keep a certain threshold of money just sitting there in the bank, you can generally get a free checking account with free check cashing or direct deposit, maybe even a tiny bit of interest. However, if you can't maintain a reliable balance, you'll have to pay fees--either per transaction, or a monthly maintenance fee, or both. Poor people aren't all stupid: They can tell that a check cashing store or other service is taking a chunk of their cash when come to cash their paycheck, and they probably have some awareness that there are banks and credit unions who provide the same services for far less, if not for free. However, they don't have access to those alternatives.

    Or housing. This particular case is much more locality specific, meaning that a lot of people few would consider "poor" end up stuck in the same trap, but it does disproportionately affect the poor. If you have decent credit and enough for a down payment, and live somewhere with a manageable housing market, you can buy a home and from that point forward, a huge chunk of your monthly housing expenditures go into equity, essentially letting you save for the future while still providing a roof over your head. If this isn't an option for you, and you continue to pay rent, then you end up paying a monthly expense that yields no direct long-term returns. So long as you don't push the limits of your credit and risk gong underwater in case of a crash, you're getting something back out of your monthly mortgage bill. It might not end up being as much as you hoped, but in the end, you'll have something to sell for some value. That's more than you get paying rent because you couldn't afford even a small starter place.

    And you don't always know about the value of those choices.
    Lack of ability to make an informed choice is, abstractly speaking, not technically a lack of choice. For practical purposes, however, it kind of is. While this does kind of relate to the "cultural capital" that dude keeps advocating, it's also strongly related to your personal means, regardless of the income bracket you were born into. If you make enough money that you have spare time or spare cash to spend being a gear head--or for that matter, just to keep up with Consumer Reports or the like, then you can develop yourself into a sophisticated consumer, regardless of how wealthy your parents are. If you have $2000 to spend and absolutely need a car within a week, you probably don't have much breathing room to research what the best used cars are--especially if you already suspect that all of the decent choices are well outside your budget.

    To be fair though, if you're driving a clunker, typically the solution is to dump it and get another one. As far as payday loans, most people I knew that had to take those out had made some bad choices prior to that.
    Like selling their sensible sedan to finance their heroine habit?

    I'm not dismissing your general point about moral agency--it's always worth keeping in mind that everyone has that, and that even if you only have bad choices, you should be expected to do your best not to pick the most terrible ones. However, I think you're overlooking just how quickly the best choices start disappearing for people once you approach the poverty line.
    Last edited by Xyril; 2019-08-30 at 02:52 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #384
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by darkrose50 View Post
    I went to my 4th grader's open house, and her teacher is married to a teacher, and they spent the summer going to her in-laws' beach-houses . . . as is plural beach houses. One in Ohio and one in Main. Not a shabby inheritance coming there way.
    This actually highlights very well the point that many of us have been making for many pages now, which is essentially "should a middle-class schoolkid ask that teacher "sir/madam, in your experience, how can I hope to go in life from "being middle-class" to "owning plural beach houses"?", the teacher's answer would be "in my experience, the one way to achieve this is to inherit plural beach houses from your in-laws".
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  25. - Top - End - #385
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    This actually highlights very well the point that many of us have been making for many pages now, which is essentially "should a middle-class schoolkid ask that teacher "sir/madam, in your experience, how can I hope to go in life from "being middle-class" to "owning plural beach houses"?", the teacher's answer would be "in my experience, the one way to achieve this is to inherit plural beach houses from your in-laws".
    That's not really fair. The teacher's answer could also be "in my experience the one way to achieve this is inherit plural beach houses from your parents." Depends on the teacher, really.
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  26. - Top - End - #386
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    While strictly true, I think that the focus of Greywolf's point was on people who are poor because they literally couldn't make enough money to do more than live hand to mouth, and not fully rational economic actors who made the morally culpable decision to mortgage their future for a heroine addiction. (or whatever implication you're trying to make with this example.)
    The implication is that both poor people and rich people have the same inherent capacity to make informed choices in the general sense. Excluding things like insider trading or what-not. Now poor people might not have the same range of choices, but they have the same choices. The reason that a heroin addiction is a useful yardstick is because it kills both poor people and rich millionaire actors and musicians. The same bad choice affects both poor and rich alike. Now there are situations where being rich could give you more opportunity, but just having said opportunity counts for nothing if you choose to go down a different road.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    I disagree with this though. I'm not really against the straw man argument you were arguing about--as I said previously, I do think that you were sharing perfectly valid assertions. Where I disagreed was that in the context in which you shared your assertions, you were pretty strongly overstating the extent to which these choices really exist all down the line.
    I've been poor, I've been so poor that I've had to pick between bills and food (food BTW), I've been so poor that when I was a child I lived for about a year with no utilities at all, no power, no running water, no heat to speak of (except for wood burning and that was rare). Even when I was that poor I still could make choices, my parents still could make choices, we aren't that poor any more, largely because of choices we made when we were at the point where you would imply that we have none, I don't need your f-ing patronizing attitude, no poor person does. They don't need to be babied and told that "it's not your fault", because it might be, it might not be too, but they don't need you telling them that, if it isn't their fault, they probably already know it, and if it isn't you're giving them a way to justify where they're at. Neither helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    Plus, you're simply mistaken. Yes, "choices exist all the way on down the line into people who are really poor." But at some level, the really good choices don't exist. If you've got a few thousand dollars of income to spare, and no way to get decent financing, you can't buy a new, reliable car, period. You can try to buy a used one in decent shape, but the used car market is largely free market driven (with some distortion from the lemon paradox.) This means that theoretically, you can spend your $5000 on a used flashy sports car or on a used, reliable car with a Kelly Blue Book value of $5000. In practice, however, almost nobody with a very old, but still reliably maintained Honda Accord is going to let that car go for such a small price. Or, for that matter, any other used car that's expected to have a lot of life left in it. Most likely, anything that is being sold for such a low price is being sold cheap for a reason. The flashy sports car is going for that low precisely because it's already towards the end of its reliable lifespan.
    That's not at all the assertion I was making. I wasn't saying somebody could buy a used sportscar, I was saying that somebody could use the same money that they could to buy your theoretical Honda as a downpayment on a new sports car. I've seen people who had plenty of money make decisions with their buying power that cost them more than if they had not had the money to make that mistake. That's what you aren't seeing. Poor people might have less opportunity but they also have less risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    I suppose you're technically correct (the best kind of correct) in that the really poor people do have choices: They can buy the cheap car that will probably break down in a year, they can buy a very old car from a reliable model that will also break down because it was rebuilt after an accident, or they can buy a really cheap clunker and a bunch of heroine. However, you seem to be missing Greywolf's original point: That below a certain threshold of poverty, the decent choices are no longer available, and only more costly choices exist.
    There are still "decent" choices, they just change. If you're that poor not having a car at all might be what you need, and moving to an area where that's better. But I've known a lot of people who were very poor who had cars from various sources. And I mean again we're talking so poor that they were living in a shed without power or running water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    Lack of ability to make an informed choice is, abstractly speaking, not technically a lack of choice. For practical purposes, however, it kind of is. While this does kind of relate to the "cultural capital" that dude keeps advocating, it's also strongly related to your personal means, regardless of the income bracket you were born into. If you make enough money that you have spare time or spare cash to spend being a gear head--or for that matter, just to keep up with Consumer Reports or the like, then you can develop yourself into a sophisticated consumer, regardless of how wealthy your parents are. If you have $2000 to spend and absolutely need a car within a week, you probably don't have much breathing room to research what the best used cars are--especially if you already suspect that all of the decent choices are well outside your budget.
    Yeah, cause poor people are too f-ing stupid to go to a library or read a book. Seriously dude, is that what you think? That poor people are so bad off because they haven't had a rich person swoop in to heroically save them from themselves? That's ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    Like selling their sensible sedan to finance their heroine habit?
    Yep, or their cocaine habit (in the case of the one person I knew who actually did take out payday loans). And like I said, I knew a lot of poor people and was very poor myself. Most people know payday loans are a scam and stay away. I imagine if you were desperate enough you might, but that's below like selling plasma and possibly certain crimes for most people, I think, in terms of what they'd be willing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    I'm not dismissing your general point about moral agency--it's always worth keeping in mind that everyone has that, and that even if you only have bad choices, you should be expected to do your best not to pick the most terrible ones. However, I think you're overlooking just how quickly the best choices start disappearing for people once you approach the poverty line.
    The best choices might not be there, but there are still good and bad ones. And poor people again, do not need somebody to swoop in and "save" them from the ability to make choices. They need to better informed maybe, but even that doesn't always help, since most people have the ability to become informed at present.

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    This actually highlights very well the point that many of us have been making for many pages now, which is essentially "should a middle-class schoolkid ask that teacher "sir/madam, in your experience, how can I hope to go in life from "being middle-class" to "owning plural beach houses"?", the teacher's answer would be "in my experience, the one way to achieve this is to inherit plural beach houses from your in-laws".
    I'm not sure how this affects this anecdote but not a one of my teachers owned a beach house. Much less my sister who is a teacher having to work two jobs to make ends meet.
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  27. - Top - End - #387
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Heck, I have a 'beach house', which consists of a trailer home on a lot not much wider than what's needed to launch a canoe or paddleboat. So some terms need to be defined (again).

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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    Like selling their sensible sedan to finance their heroine habit?
    When Wonder Woman sold her Honda Civic to help pay off her invisible plane, was that a bad decision?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    When Wonder Woman sold her Honda Civic to help pay off her invisible plane, was that a bad decision?
    If the repo men couldn't find it to tow away, sure.
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  30. - Top - End - #390
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    Default Re: Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad poor Dad

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    Yeah, cause poor people are too f-ing stupid to go to a library or read a book. Seriously dude, is that what you think? That poor people are so bad off because they haven't had a rich person swoop in to heroically save them from themselves? That's ridiculous.
    Sir, please calm down. (Or to borrow your colorful language, "calm the f- down.") There's no need to get upset over a strawman argument I never made.

    I had responses to your other points--I actually agreed with quite a lot of what you said. I erased it all because I thought this particular point needed to be emphasized. I don't think that poor people are "too f-ing stupid to go to a library or read a book." I don't think that poor people "a rich person swoop in to heroically save them from themselves." To read that into my post is either shockingly willful dishonesty, or a massive failure in reading comprehension on your part.

    My one and only point is this: When you've got disposable income and leisure time, getting the knowledge you need to make the best choices becomes a lot easier. When you're missing one or both of those things, putting the time and resources into becoming fully informed often comes at a tangible cost. Thus, while I fully support everyone--particularly the very poor--becoming more informed in everything they do, I'm not going to judge them harshly for not always doing so.

    If you're going to read more into it than that--particularly after making repeated reference to your own past poverty--in order to cast me as the bad guy in some class-warfare narrative so that you can affect faux outrage, then that's entirely on you. Intellectual dishonesty needs to be called out the first time. After that, it gets ignored.

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