The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    I think the main issue is that Max's attack was concentrated into a veritable pinprick, rather than the larger, more diffuse blast from a typical cannon. It's the difference between piercing and crushing damage.

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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    I think the main issue is that Max's attack was concentrated into a veritable pinprick, rather than the larger, more diffuse blast from a typical cannon. It's the difference between piercing and crushing damage.
    Or if you want a comparison from existing fiction, the difference between a Goa'uld Mothership cannon and the Tollan Ion Cannon. One just hucks great blobs of destructive energy at the target, the other makes a focused attack that pierces shields without battering them down.

    Basically, normally shields just deflect or disperse incoming energy (or projectiles) somehow, but they have various limits, regardless of technology used. There's a total energy capacity of the ship's shields that you can just bash down with brute force, essentially defeating the ship's power delivery systems moreso than the shields. There's the limit of how much energy a shield generator can disperse total, per unit time, so that a shield even with ample reserves won't be able to stop all of it, so you're overloading the shield generator's own capacity. And there's also the limit of how much energy the shield itself can counteract, the "strength" of the shielding effect - something that Max overcame with the attack on the Fel carrier. Not the energy reserves or generator power, the two failure points that would come into play in ship-to-ship combat, but the shield itself, with sheer energy density and focus of the attack.

    It's, like... just going medieval with the simile, normally when warriors with swords and shields fight, a warrior might drop their shield when they've run out of strength to hold it, or when an overwhelming strike breaks their shield arm, because shields themselves are damn sturdy by design. The idea of a single blow just straight-up skewering the shield and its wielder doesn't usually come up unless someone walks onto the battlefield brandishing a ballista.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    I do agree with Ibrinar that having characters that throw around that sort of power tends to result in weirdness though. For example, does that mean V was at nuclear weapon grade power? He didn't really show it though. Which is a weird. (Well other than the create pants thing, if we want to nitpick. Maybe. It is also possible he synthesized it from existing matter.)
    He likely were.
    It was just less obvious since his nuklear "reactor" were dividing its output between strenght, speed, toughness and misc.

    I think the main issue is that Max's attack was concentrated into a veritable pinprick, rather than the larger, more diffuse blast from a typical cannon. It's the difference between piercing and crushing damage.
    This is a good point. It is likely not that alien battleships cant output a higher amount of energy.
    But it does not matter if they hit twice as hard, if the force is dispersed on 4 square meter instead of 1.
    So what makes Max special is just as much that she can focus her beam so intensely.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    And yes we already saw in the desert that Max have some really nasty energy blasts, that she likely rarely dials up because of the collatoral damage.
    She is this worlds closest analog to Superman, even if she is still far, far weaker.
    As far as I can remember the most we have seen from her explosion wise was pretty small, maybe destroy a block of houses level not destroy anything in a mile radius lvl. Both what she has shown when demonstrating for the press and is the war flashback was pretty small iirc. Unless I misremember?


    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    But at the same, yes the lightning Vehemence produced was immensely destructive?
    I believe an author comment noted that had Sydney been hit then she would have been reduced to ash.
    And he would have popped Sidney's head right off if he tried to strangle her, that doesn't mean much. I mean on the level of >1000 times more damaging that him trying to kill her with his super powered strength (since I said that she should be able to at least do 1/1000 of her max blast in her normal state it must be high enough to make me raise that ). It is possible the difference was that enormous but the story didn't really indicate it. (Though if it was it probably should have killed her faster than she could switch.)

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    He likely were.
    It was just less obvious since his nuklear "reactor" were dividing its output between strenght, speed, toughness and misc.
    I think you really underestimate the magnitude of nuclear weapon grade if splitting by 4 is enough to turn it into what we saw (well reactor!= nuclear weapon since you release energy much faster). Here is after he grew and is nearing his highest power https://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/...ons-dwindling/ . We see a punch but since Maxima can fly it doesn't tell us as much because we can say it looked relatively weak because she absorbed it via flight not her hold on the ground.

    But next page we see him lose an arm to a tiny explosion (well respectable for normal superhero but I am talking in comparison with nukes and this one doesn't even destroy the ground in the area). Until the author declares Maxima has the secondary power of limiting the area her explosions affect that means he was relatively squishy at that point. Of course his toughness might be much lower than his offensive potential, but still the fight doesn't make him look like that high of a threat. Or it could be an occurrence of what I said with the collateral damage much more contained than it should be.
    Last edited by Ibrinar; 2019-09-11 at 05:31 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Mirrsen View Post
    It's, like... just going medieval with the simile, normally when warriors with swords and shields fight, a warrior might drop their shield when they've run out of strength to hold it, or when an overwhelming strike breaks their shield arm, because shields themselves are damn sturdy by design. The idea of a single blow just straight-up skewering the shield and its wielder doesn't usually come up unless someone walks onto the battlefield brandishing a ballista.
    A light crossbow can do that, and usually crossbow troops are armed with arbalests. Well-trained archers can do it with a longbow. There's a reason for the Italian proverb "A cut wounds, a stab kills".

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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    A light crossbow can do that, and usually crossbow troops are armed with arbalests. Well-trained archers can do it with a longbow. There's a reason for the Italian proverb "A cut wounds, a stab kills".
    Yeah, shields broke, a lot. They were made primarily of wood and leather, neither of which had tremendous stopping power against a longbow shaft or an arbalest quarrel. Plate armor was better at stopping them, but even that was just resistant, not immune.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Max is a unique case even among super.
    Most likely she is a regular super that has somehow been argumented by an artifact from the same guys who made Sydney's orbs.



    There isnt really any inconsistency there. Yes its a move Max has available to her.
    No its not relevant in most cases, since using it turns her about as slow and squishy as a regular human.
    In most cases thats a death sentence when there are unknow enemy supers around. And your target #1.
    As such, this was about the only situation where that move was useable.
    Its worth remembering she never becomes fully as squishy or weak as a baseline human, there is a floor that is still at way more then normal.
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  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    As far as I can remember the most we have seen from her explosion wise was pretty small, maybe destroy a block of houses level not destroy anything in a mile radius lvl. Both what she has shown when demonstrating for the press and is the war flashback was pretty small iirc. Unless I misremember?
    The explosion in the desert were quite impressive.
    But likely the biggest thing she had done so far, before the spaceship.

    And he would have popped Sidney's head right off if he tried to strangle her, that doesn't mean much. I mean on the level of >1000 times more damaging that him trying to kill her with his super powered strength (since I said that she should be able to at least do 1/1000 of her max blast in her normal state it must be high enough to make me raise that ). It is possible the difference was that enormous but the story didn't really indicate it. (Though if it was it probably should have killed her faster than she could switch.)
    There is quite a massive difference in the energy required to remove someone's head, and turn their entire body to ash.
    But else i cant see what point your trying to make here.

    I think you really underestimate the magnitude of nuclear weapon grade if splitting by 4 is enough to turn it into what we saw (well reactor!= nuclear weapon since you release energy much faster). Here is after he grew and is nearing his highest power https://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/...ons-dwindling/ . We see a punch but since Maxima can fly it doesn't tell us as much because we can say it looked relatively weak because she absorbed it via flight not her hold on the ground.
    I dont really get why you linked this comic either. Its around the point where he was equal to Max. So as you say, yes she doesnt go flying like a cannonball because she can anchor herself in the air.
    Just Like Vehemence is anchoring himself to the ground.

    But next page we see him lose an arm to a tiny explosion (well respectable for normal superhero but I am talking in comparison with nukes and this one doesn't even destroy the ground in the area). Until the author declares Maxima has the secondary power of limiting the area her explosions affect that means he was relatively squishy at that point. Of course his toughness might be much lower than his offensive potential, but still the fight doesn't make him look like that high of a threat. Or it could be an occurrence of what I said with the collateral damage much more contained than it should be.
    Main relevant point here, is that we already know Max is able to focus her energy beam to an insane degree.
    This should not be seen as an explosion, but a point blank version of what she did to the spaceship.
    We see it again next page, where Max tries to stap Vehemence with her hand. What happend previously were likely Vehemence's arm getting hit by that.

    Its worth remembering she never becomes fully as squishy or weak as a baseline human, there is a floor that is still at way more then normal.
    No thats what i have repeatedly been trying to explain to people.
    If you read the author comments. Then you would know that Max can cannibalise that floor to boost an attribute even further.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    But else i cant see what point your trying to make here.
    That is because you don't want to, which is why lets just drop it I don't think continuing will be worthwhile.

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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    That is because you don't want to, which is why lets just drop it I don't think continuing will be worthwhile.
    No its because it wasnt explained very clearly.
    But your of course welcome to stick to just stick to your own beliefs on the matter.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    And it's reaction time. Largely to be expected results.

    Also, it figures Vale shops at that enterprise, and I think my wife would like to be added to their mailing list.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine
    It was just less obvious since his nuklear "reactor" were dividing its output between strenght, speed, toughness and misc.
    The thing is a nuclear bomb divided four or five ways is still absurdly powerful. A nuclear weapon as powerful as the Tsar bomb divided four or five ways is still vastly beyond what you get out of a fission only nuke, like the Little Boy or Fat Man. V at no point demonstrates city leveling power or even a tiny fraction of that sort of power.
    This should not be seen as an explosion, but a point blank version of what she did to the spaceship.
    Except it looked like an explosion!
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
    The thing is a nuclear bomb divided four or five ways is still absurdly powerful. A nuclear weapon as powerful as the Tsar bomb divided four or five ways is still vastly beyond what you get out of a fission only nuke, like the Little Boy or Fat Man. V at no point demonstrates city leveling power or even a tiny fraction of that sort of power.
    Except it looked like an explosion!
    He was exerting force on maxima who was likely so topped off on tanking power due to her stat dump that it would take nuke levels of force to overpower her. Its like punching superman hard enough to make him bleed. Just because it didnt ignite the atmosphere of the earth in a conflagration that erased all life doesnt mean that superman wasnt hit with the force of god knows how much raw power to hurt him. Just that it was all focused on superman and not in a flashy explosion. Vehemence was crushing maxima, not trying to blow her up. And considering we dont know what her theoretical limits of durability in full turtle mode are, it makes it hard to judge accurately just how strong vehemence was at that time. And also remember, HE DIDNT COME THERE TO KILL ANYONE! Originally his plan was to see just how powerful he could get in a massive superbrawl, beat up the good guys, then saunter off laughing. Maxima showing her willingness to kill meant he had to take her out because he doesnt stay at maxima+ power levels forever so if she survived next time she takes his head off right at the start. So thats why he didnt unleash any massive attacks.
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  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Except it looked like an explosion!
    What does that have to do with anything?
    Its extremely likely that the damage done to Vehemence wasnt from the explosion.

    The explosion were likely the result of the damage done to his arm.
    Where the massive energy transfer caused it to explore.
    It should be pointed out, we didnt see any pits or pieces of it afterwards.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    What does that have to do with anything?
    Its extremely likely that the damage done to Vehemence wasnt from the explosion.

    The explosion were likely the result of the damage done to his arm.
    Where the massive energy transfer caused it to explore.
    It should be pointed out, we didnt see any pits or pieces of it afterwards.
    On a mostly unrelated note, I still liked watching a video about how horrifying a weapon a lightsaber would be as they mentioned the heat of the blade would be so high it wouldnt cauterize a wound if you lopped off a limb, it would create a steam explosion of all fluids it contacted in a violent and horrific red mist that used to be a limb. Hitting a person with one would be like slapping them with c4 that explodes on contact. Not precisely "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age" is it?
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    On a mostly unrelated note, I still liked watching a video about how horrifying a weapon a lightsaber would be as they mentioned the heat of the blade would be so high it wouldnt cauterize a wound if you lopped off a limb, it would create a steam explosion of all fluids it contacted in a violent and horrific red mist that used to be a limb. Hitting a person with one would be like slapping them with c4 that explodes on contact. Not precisely "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age" is it?
    Well, consider who made that claim.
    Did you really think you could believe the word of a Jedi?
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    [QUOTE=Kantaki;24146567]Well, consider who made that claim.
    Im sure he felt it was true, from a certain point of view.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
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    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Well, consider who made that claim.
    Im sure he felt it was true, from a certain point of view.
    Well, it certainly looks... fancier than using a blaster.
    And in the spheres Jedi tend to move in, isn't that what truly matters?
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

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  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    [QUOTE=Traab;24146644]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Well, consider who made that claim.
    Im sure he felt it was true, from a certain point of view.
    It is in a way. With a lightsaber you almost never hit a person you didn't mean to hit. A blaster, you can miss and hit someone else. When you miss with a lightsaber, you should just hit air, particularly if you are a Jedi.

    So yeah, I can see why a precision weapon with low chance of collateral would be considered to be more elegant then a blaster.
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  20. - Top - End - #260
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    On a mostly unrelated note, I still liked watching a video about how horrifying a weapon a lightsaber would be as they mentioned the heat of the blade would be so high it wouldnt cauterize a wound if you lopped off a limb, it would create a steam explosion of all fluids it contacted in a violent and horrific red mist that used to be a limb. Hitting a person with one would be like slapping them with c4 that explodes on contact. Not precisely "an elegant weapon for a more civilized age" is it?
    Yeah.. see thats what i did think happend.
    Max had charged her hand with enough energy to run a medium sized town.
    Enough to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Or to break regular organic matter into its component atoms.
    And so when she touched Vehemence.. Boom!
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post

    It is in a way. With a lightsaber you almost never hit a person you didn't mean to hit. A blaster, you can miss and hit someone else. When you miss with a lightsaber, you should just hit air, particularly if you are a Jedi.

    So yeah, I can see why a precision weapon with low chance of collateral would be considered to be more elegant then a blaster.
    Yup! Even if every jedi would look like Darth Maul after every fight. On the other hand I would feel sorry for the cleanup crew.
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    Default Re: Grrl Power V: Probably Not an Octopus

    Eh, they'd just tell droids to do it. Droids with about as much brains as your Roomba.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    At least she gives an honest answer.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    At least she gives an honest answer.
    It helps that she is fully self aware of her issues. Its actually kinda nice. So many protagonists have issues that they dont even realize ARE issues until something happens that forces them to confront it. From generic bratty teenage-itis to full fledged mental conditions.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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