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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    The second adventure in Ghosts of Saltmarsh is Danger at Dunwater. This features the unusual case of a dungeon full of monsters that the PCs are not supposed to fight. This is supposed to be something to discover, not an expectation, but that's not always how it's going to go. Whether intentionally or not, players may have metagame knowledge (whether from reading the module, reading reviews, or perhaps even playing the original 30 years ago) that the lizardfolk are not villians and this can lead the adventure to becoming little more than a boring set of Charisma checks on the path to an easy victory.

    So, what if the lizardfolk really are a threat? Perhaps instead of planning to attack the sahaugin the lizardfolk really are planning to attack Saltmarsh (maybe to appease the sahuagin)? Perhaps the alliance is being put together to oppose the sahuagin but the smugglers want them to attack Saltmarsh first (the smugglers could be aligned with the Scarlet Brotherhood). Taking this route also explains why the lizardfolk went through channels other than Saltmarsh to get weapons. I mean, really, how did these isolated lizardfolk that see no value in humans meet random smugglers in the area, and where are these smugglers from anyway?

    This can certainly run the risk of being almost as boring with attack rolls and saving throws replacing the Charisma checks, but it can certainly be a surprising turn for players expecting a warm-and-fuzzy meets cold-and-scaly sleepover in the Hool Marshes.

    I'd like to hear what other adjustments I should make if I go with this approach. Obviously The Final Enemy would have to be adjusted, but perhaps that's as simple as putting some sea elves into place to join Saltmarsh against the lizardfolk and their allies (like the koalinth).

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    I'm still looking for feedback, especially feedback that will more tightly tie this adventure into the happenings of the Greyhawk setting CY 591-ish, specifically the happenings in the Hold of the Sea Princes and the rebellion against the Scarlet Brotherhood.

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    Pex's Avatar

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Your players may surprise you and know they aren't villains especially if the people of Salt Marsh tell them they got along fine in the past, and it's only because one was seen with the pirates that caused concern in the first place.

    I played a paladin in 2E when I played this adventure and was insistent to the party before we met the lizardmen weren't our enemies. Truth was going to see them we were the invaders to their home, and they would likely defend themselves. As it happened when we approached they did not know our intentions and attacked. However, we fought defensively. We didn't kill anyone, just knocked them out until finally we found a lizardman we could talk to. Once we did we immediately dropped our weapons and surrendered so we could talk, and so we learned what was going on.

    If the party does fight to kill, if they win they win. If they lose they get captured, not killed, and it wouldn't even be deus ex machina. The lizardmen would legitimately want to know why Salt Marsh would send invaders when they had gotten along in the past. Then the truth comes out on both sides.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Your players may surprise you and know they aren't villains especially if the people of Salt Marsh tell them they got along fine in the past, and it's only because one was seen with the pirates that caused concern in the first place.

    I played a paladin in 2E when I played this adventure and was insistent to the party before we met the lizardmen weren't our enemies. Truth was going to see them we were the invaders to their home, and they would likely defend themselves. As it happened when we approached they did not know our intentions and attacked. However, we fought defensively. We didn't kill anyone, just knocked them out until finally we found a lizardman we could talk to. Once we did we immediately dropped our weapons and surrendered so we could talk, and so we learned what was going on.

    If the party does fight to kill, if they win they win. If they lose they get captured, not killed, and it wouldn't even be deus ex machina. The lizardmen would legitimately want to know why Salt Marsh would send invaders when they had gotten along in the past. Then the truth comes out on both sides.
    I'm not sure you understood what I was going for. What I'm suggesting is to shift "the truth" to the lizardmen acting on the side of the sahaugin. The people of Saltmarsh will have had little or no previous contact with these lizardfolk, so the information gathering will be starting from zero. It's possible that the player characters can figure out that the lizardmen are working for the sahaugin under duress, but that will still make for a very different adventure (especially for the players that have metagamed)

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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    I'm not sure you understood what I was going for. What I'm suggesting is to shift "the truth" to the lizardmen acting on the side of the sahaugin. The people of Saltmarsh will have had little or no previous contact with these lizardfolk, so the information gathering will be starting from zero. It's possible that the player characters can figure out that the lizardmen are working for the sahaugin under duress, but that will still make for a very different adventure (especially for the players that have metagamed)
    How much extra work do you want to make for yourself? Having the lizardment as the cats paw/patsies for the Sahaugin creates a need to rewrite the entire relationship map between factions.

    If that amuses you, go for it and do great things.

    As you noted, increasing the participation of the sea elves (or even other elves local to the region) is a way to balance this out.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-08-12 at 03:29 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    I don't even try to pretend the lizardmen are enemies. I use Oceanus from the Sea Ghost and a "meeting" with the town council to basically conclude right off the bat, the lizardmen are "likely" not the enemy.

    That opens up the adventure to a diplomatic mission right away (there is no way to get word to them) and the goal to gain the lizardfolk's trust (instead of the smugglers/what happens on the Sea Ghost) and determine who the true threat to the region is. You can then run the adventure as a wilderness adventure through the Hool Marshes and then do a number of "tests" to gain the lizardfolk's trust, including killing the giant crocodile and maybe something else you can add (Bullybug fight was always hard in the original).

    As a DM, I ALWAYS have one lizardman die (the leader/one with the Pseuodragon, which is cool treasure) and one jump over the side of the boat and escape (thus the lizardmen KNOW their weapons and arms were confiscated by the town/someone).

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by deljzc View Post
    I don't even try to pretend the lizardmen are enemies. I use Oceanus from the Sea Ghost and a "meeting" with the town council to basically conclude right off the bat, the lizardmen are "likely" not the enemy.

    That opens up the adventure to a diplomatic mission right away (there is no way to get word to them) and the goal to gain the lizardfolk's trust (instead of the smugglers/what happens on the Sea Ghost) and determine who the true threat to the region is. You can then run the adventure as a wilderness adventure through the Hool Marshes and then do a number of "tests" to gain the lizardfolk's trust, including killing the giant crocodile and maybe something else you can add (Bullybug fight was always hard in the original).

    As a DM, I ALWAYS have one lizardman die (the leader/one with the Pseuodragon, which is cool treasure) and one jump over the side of the boat and escape (thus the lizardmen KNOW their weapons and arms were confiscated by the town/someone).
    I'm trying to flip expectations for those players that have insight into the adventure as written. I feel that it's way too easy to complete Danger as written if the players go in with knowledge that the lizardfolk are not a threat. Now if I change it and they go in there with that erroneous belief despite clues to the contrary (starting with the hostile lizardfolk on the smuggler's ship), then things get more interesting.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    How much extra work do you want to make for yourself? Having the lizardment as the cats paw/patsies for the Sahaugin creates a need to rewrite the entire relationship map between factions.

    If that amuses you, go for it and do great things.

    As you noted, increasing the participation of the sea elves (or even other elves local to the region) is a way to balance this out.
    I'm not adverse to doing work; I usually make my own adventures rather than running book adventures, but Ghosts of Saltmarsh is an "old house" I was considering flipping.

    I am interested in hearing suggestions on increasing coherence.

    For example, how did the lizardfolk originally get in contact with the smugglers without some contact with Saltmarsh? The smugglers load/unload at the house on the far side of the town, so how did they plan to move the weapons to the lizardfolk lair (or how did the lizardfolk plan to retrieve them from the house)? If not independents, then who do the smugglers work for, and where did they acquire the load of weapons? My players will certainly ask these questions.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    I'm trying to flip expectations for those players that have insight into the adventure as written. I feel that it's way too easy to complete Danger as written if the players go in with knowledge that the lizardfolk are not a threat. Now if I change it and they go in there with that erroneous belief despite clues to the contrary (starting with the hostile lizardfolk on the smuggler's ship), then things get more interesting.
    If, let's say, you have the 3 lizardmen aggressive right off the bat on the Sea Ghost (which makes sense to me as they want to protect their payments and weapons) and have one escape back to the Lizardfolk lair, then you can play the entire U2 adventure as hostile.

    That could be a very tough adventure for a level 3 party though. I think there are 90-100 lizardfolk in the lair. Any attempts to hack-and-slash the entire colony seem doomed to fail unless you fudge the adventure as a DM to make it possible.

    U1-U3 have always been difficult for novice D&D players that expect the entire game to be just fight after fight.

    Let's face it, the haunted house is likely to have one big fight. The ship has one big fight. Everything else is pretty mundane. Searching and thinking man's game with roll-playing being the primary focus (not stats, not cool fighting moves, not combos).

    U2 is a diplomatic mission. And even U3 is a stealth, Navy-Seals type mission.

    The balance as a DM is to try to inject enough action around these main chapters to keep the players interested and having fun. I think the whole Ghosts of Saltmarsh tried to do that (by mixing in new adventures and making U3 a much higher level adventure than originally).
    Last edited by deljzc; 2019-08-14 at 10:42 AM.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by deljzc View Post
    If, let's say, you have the 3 lizardmen aggressive right off the bat on the Sea Ghost (which makes sense to me as they want to protect their payments and weapons) and have one escape back to the Lizardfolk lair, then you can play the entire U2 adventure as hostile.

    That could be a very tough adventure for a level 3 party though. I think there are 90-100 lizardfolk in the lair. Any attempts to hack-and-slash the entire colony seem doomed to fail unless you fudge the adventure as a DM to make it possible.

    U1-U3 have always been difficult for novice D&D players that expect the entire game to be just fight after fight.

    Let's face it, the haunted house is likely to have one big fight. The ship has one big fight. Everything else is pretty mundane. Searching and thinking man's game with roll-playing being the primary focus (not stats, not cool fighting moves, not combos).

    U2 is a diplomatic mission. And even U3 is a stealth, Navy-Seals type mission.

    The balance as a DM is to try to inject enough action around these main chapters to keep the players interested and having fun. I think the whole Ghosts of Saltmarsh tried to do that (by mixing in new adventures and making U3 a much higher level adventure than originally).
    Yes, going into the lair is going to be foolhardy and likely lead to deaths. I have a group that is far more likely to "hunt" the lizardfolk (even if the module is played straight) and ambush some that are outside of the lair (and they must leave it from time to time) to get their information. Picking the lizardfolk off might be possible with the right group composition (the same composition that will help with U3).

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    I'm not adverse to doing work; I usually make my own adventures rather than running book adventures, but Ghosts of Saltmarsh is an "old house" I was considering flipping.

    I am interested in hearing suggestions on increasing coherence.

    For example, how did the lizardfolk originally get in contact with the smugglers without some contact with Saltmarsh? The smugglers load/unload at the house on the far side of the town, so how did they plan to move the weapons to the lizardfolk lair (or how did the lizardfolk plan to retrieve them from the house)? If not independents, then who do the smugglers work for, and where did they acquire the load of weapons? My players will certainly ask these questions.
    The way I wrote that into a back story for a character was that the smugglers have a few crewmen with dark vision, and they use the boat from their ship to ferry small loads of arms to the lizardfolk who meet them at the edges of the swampy areas. They keep their ship in deep enough water to avoid getting trapped against the marsh.

    The weapons were purchased by a third party and in my case, they came from way up north in Ulek. Underground trade and all that. The smugglers get a cut for delivery.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-08-15 at 04:26 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    The way I wrote that into a back story for a character was that the smugglers have a few crewmen with dark vision, and they use the boat from their ship to ferry small loads of arms to the lizardfolk who meet them at the edges of the swampy areas. They keep their ship in deep enough water to avoid getting trapped against the marsh.

    The weapons were purchased by a third party and in my case, they came from way up north in Ulek. Underground trade and all that. The smugglers get a cut for delivery.
    What I meant was:

    • When/how did the lizardfolk come to decide to approach humans (and assorted demihumans) for arms?
    • Having made this decision, why did they not approach Saltmarsh, the closest human/demihuman settlement?
    • After deciding not to contact Saltmarsh, how did they originally contact the smugglers (who presumably did not just happen to be hanging around the edge of the marsh where no civilized customers would be found--and the lizardfolk don't seem to have magical Craigslist)?

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    What I meant was:

    • When/how did the lizardfolk come to decide to approach humans (and assorted demihumans) for arms?
    • Having made this decision, why did they not approach Saltmarsh, the closest human/demihuman settlement?
    • After deciding not to contact Saltmarsh, how did they originally contact the smugglers (who presumably did not just happen to be hanging around the edge of the marsh where no civilized customers would be found--and the lizardfolk don't seem to have magical Craigslist)?
    Try not to think so human-centric. D&D is an odd place. There are hundreds of intelligent species all with an economy that has to somehow interact with other in some ways. Maybe, before the lizardmen were driven from their main lair/home, they did trade with some humans (just not Saltmarsh, maybe Port Torvin to the south). That area is likely more tolerant of other races back when it was controlled (or still controlled) by the Sea Princes. Maybe the lizardmen reached out to Port Torvin through connection they had there once they were driven from their homes.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    We didn't kill anyone, just knocked them out
    I despise this trope. People thinking they can hit someone in the head to "knock them out" has killed people. People die and others wind up in jail for murder because this idea spreads.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by deljzc View Post
    Try not to think so human-centric. D&D is an odd place. There are hundreds of intelligent species all with an economy that has to somehow interact with other in some ways. Maybe, before the lizardmen were driven from their main lair/home, they did trade with some humans (just not Saltmarsh, maybe Port Torvin to the south). That area is likely more tolerant of other races back when it was controlled (or still controlled) by the Sea Princes. Maybe the lizardmen reached out to Port Torvin through connection they had there once they were driven from their homes.
    The Hold of the Sea Princes was far less friendly to non-humans than Keoland, and that's before the Scarlet Brotherhood (a group of Suloise human supremacists) took it over.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    I despise this trope. People thinking they can hit someone in the head to "knock them out" has killed people. People die and others wind up in jail for murder because this idea spreads.
    And 5e has made it easy to just declare that a finishing blow with a spear/battleaxe/rapier is nonlethal, so you have to wonder why good aligned adventures kill as often as they do. Why isn't it like Star Trek with "set melee weapons to stun" every time they approach an uncertain foe?

  17. - Top - End - #17
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyDaze View Post
    And 5e has made it easy to just declare that a finishing blow with a spear/battleaxe/rapier is nonlethal, so you have to wonder why good aligned adventures kill as often as they do. Why isn't it like Star Trek with "set melee weapons to stun" every time they approach an uncertain foe?
    Even if you hit someone in the head with the pommel of your sword, chances are good if you hit them hard enough to knock them out, you hit them hard enough to kill them. You get kids playing "the knockout game" and murdering random people on the streets as a result of this toxic idea.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    I despise this trope. People thinking they can hit someone in the head to "knock them out" has killed people. People die and others wind up in jail for murder because this idea spreads.... Even if you hit someone in the head with the pommel of your sword, chances are good if you hit them hard enough to knock them out, you hit them hard enough to kill them. You get kids playing "the knockout game" and murdering random people on the streets as a result of this toxic idea.
    You're correct about IRL, but we're talking about a game and game results.

    In 1e/2e it was called subdual damage (and IIRC it only worked on dragons in 1e). The idea was you pummeled your enemy into submission/surrender rather than unconsciousness.

    This might be a good alternative for your table.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Breaking expectations in Ghosts of Saltmarsh (spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    Even if you hit someone in the head with the pommel of your sword, chances are good if you hit them hard enough to knock them out, you hit them hard enough to kill them. You get kids playing "the knockout game" and murdering random people on the streets as a result of this toxic idea.
    I'm in full agreement with you; saying "set swords to stun" was entirely tongue-in-cheek.

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