OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogar Demonblud]

So here’s the real question in my mind. When danger rears its ugly head, Curly* bravely runs away every time.

Do you suppose Curly** was the same way? In life, did she always run at the first sign of danger?

How much personality actually transfers from the host to the new vampire?

Too bad we already named her Curly. We could've called her Sir Robin.


It's been a while since we referenced Python

[D.One]

I really hope this book ends with (by that I mean, the ending includes) Minrah, Protector of Temples and Slayer of Nameless Vampires becoming an adventurer.

That's something to hope for.

Maybe even a spin off with the adventurers of her group, or maybe with her as leader of an undead-slaying faction.

It is a holy relic of Thor, so it is Mjolnir-adjacent.

I'd say it's at least Mjolnir-thrice removed...

So here’s the real question in my mind. When danger rears its ugly head, Curly* bravely runs away every time.

Do you suppose Curly** was the same way? In life, did she always run at the first sign of danger?

How much personality actually transfers from the host to the new vampire?

I’d say Curly** was the opposite, she ran directly into danger, no matter the size, and so Curly doesn’t like that.

I'd say it's possible that host and vampire share some traits. That said, we may suppose Curly's "worst day" may be related to a moment of great fear (or great regret over a bold and corageous failure), making Curly*'s first instinct to flee when peril arrives.

[Peelee]

It is a holy relic of Thor

So is an old cleric, but I ain't calling them Mjolnir-adjacent!

[Ruck]

Delurking to raise a point that I don't think has been made yet...

I think Gontor* is wrong here:



But here's what the rules say (with my interpolations in {}):



A card table wouldn't be big enough for every clan rep to stand before, it doesn't matter how many of them are actually still standing. The table size is an absolute requirement.

Of course, Gontor* has only just learned of the rule, making up plans on the fly isn't his core competency, and it really doesn't matter now anyway. But why should any of that stop a forum posting?

I agree with you-- I just think Gontor was so mad / flustered he just said whatever he could think of in the moment.

Oh, she surely saw Minrah, Protector of Temples and Slayer of Nameless Vampires, approaching.

Her title is The Dwarf Who Came Back From Valhalla.

[D.One]

Her title is The Dwarf Who Came Back From Valhalla.

So be it:

Minrah Elle Shaleshoe (Blade Van Helsing :-p)
Grand Protector of Temples
Slayer of Nameless Vampires
She Who Came Back from Valhalla Itself to Crush Evil and Make Kid-based Decisions
(Please enrich her titles further more)

[Schroeswald]

I agree with you-- I just think Gontor was so mad / flustered he just said whatever he could think of in the moment.



Her title is The Dwarf Who Came Back From Valhalla.

We’ll call her Minrah Shaleshoe, The Dwarf Who Came Back From Valhalla, Protector of Temples and Slayer of Nameless Vampires. We can keep stacking titles on her for everything she does like a Roman emperor until historians will call her by some derogatory childhood nickname after giving up.

Now I’m not saying she will become the god empress of the dwarves when her adventuring days are over, but I’m not not saying it.

EDIT:Before I finished writing this I saw what D. One what above me, but I didn’t want to waste calling her a god empress so here I post a very similar thing.

[AutomatedTeller]

btw - I love this comic. I loved this comic (#1174) and I loved the ones leading up to it and the whole thing.

Just haven't said that in a while.

[Ruck]

So be it:

Minrah Elle Shaleshoe (Blade Van Helsing :-p)
Grand Protector of Temples
Slayer of Nameless Vampires
She Who Came Back from Valhalla Itself to Crush Evil and Make Kid-based Decisions
(Please enrich her titles further more)

We’ll call her Minrah Shaleshoe, The Dwarf Who Came Back From Valhalla, Protector of Temples and Slayer of Nameless Vampires. We can keep stacking titles on her for everything she does like a Roman emperor until historians will call her by some derogatory childhood nickname after giving up.

Now I’m not saying she will become the god empress of the dwarves when her adventuring days are over, but I’m not not saying it.

EDIT:Before I finished writing this I saw what D. One what above me, but I didn’t want to waste calling her a god empress so here I post a very similar thing.

Heh. Well, I just liked it because it seems reasonable that a dwarf has killed a vampire before now, but has a dwarf ever in this world had their ticket to Valhalla punched and decided, "No, I'm going back"?

[Squire Doodad]

Heh. Well, I just liked it because it seems reasonable that a dwarf has killed a vampire before now, but has a dwarf ever in this world had their ticket to Valhalla punched and decided, "No, I'm going back"?

Had their ticket to Valhalla punched and brought back? Yes. Asked before their death to be brought back even if they die with honor? Yes.

Died with honor, talked to Thor himself, got a drinks upgrade, was pre-cleared to get in, and then said "Thor know, I want to go home"?

She might be a trendsetter.

[Keltest]

Heh. Well, I just liked it because it seems reasonable that a dwarf has killed a vampire before now, but has a dwarf ever in this world had their ticket to Valhalla punched and decided, "No, I'm going back"?

Durkon?

But assuming he doesn't count, probably yes. I would imagine there are plenty of young dwarves who decide they aren't ready to give up on living a mortal life just because they died honorably. Its probably only the older dwarves who start considering that, because death by old age is almost certainly dishonorable, and certainly irreversible.

[jwhouk]

Best be careful with all the long-naming of Minrah. See what happened to Daenerys on Song of Ice and Fire.

[Mandor]

Delurking to raise a point that I don't think has been made yet...

I think Gontor* is wrong here:

But here's what the rules say (with my interpolations in {}):


A card table wouldn't be big enough for every clan rep to stand before, it doesn't matter how many of them are actually still standing. The table size is an absolute requirement.
Of course, Gontor* has only just learned of the rule, making up plans on the fly isn't his core competency, and it really doesn't matter now anyway. But why should any of that stop a forum posting?

I agree with you-- I just think Gontor was so mad / flustered he just said whatever he could think of in the moment.
Her title is The Dwarf Who Came Back From Valhalla.

However, if Gontor* went ahead and completely exterminated every dwarven clan but one or two... then he could use a small table because there'd only be on clan left and only need a couple of seats at the table.
Of course, fully wiping out such clans might be tricky if they have extented relatives living on different continents, etc. but hey. In theory.... if you mow down enough people...

[Schroeswald]

However, if Gontor* went ahead and completely exterminated every dwarven clan but one or two... then he could use a small table because there'd only be on clan left and only need a couple of seats at the table.
Of course, fully wiping out such clans might be tricky if they have extented relatives living on different continents, etc. but hey. In theory.... if you mow down enough people...

I know a genderqueer person who knows some guys who know a girl who can do it.

[Canisius]

I really love the dynamic of the dwarven family & friends being a major resource in this encounter. I don't recall seeing Rich use that device before! Excellent!

[Skull the Troll]

Hopefully it doesn't take them TOO long to find a replacement table. If the snarl breaks free and they can't end the world without a resolved vote....

[brian 333]

If The Snarl breaks free they will destroy the world in ten seconds anyway.

[factotum]

Hopefully it doesn't take them TOO long to find a replacement table. If the snarl breaks free and they can't end the world without a resolved vote....

The vote at the Godsmoot is whether to destroy the world before the Snarl escapes. If it escapes, I'm 100% sure they'll destroy the world immediately, regardless of whether the vote is still outstanding or not.

[CriticalFailure]

The vote at the Godsmoot is whether to destroy the world before the Snarl escapes. If it escapes, I'm 100% sure they'll destroy the world immediately, regardless of whether the vote is still outstanding or not.

Haven't they already agreed to that?

[Jannoire]

So is an old cleric, but I ain't calling them Mjolnir-adjacent!

But he'll most likely return, if you throw him. But he won't stop and let you catch him, he'll make sure you won't throw him again.

However, if Gontor* went ahead and completely exterminated every dwarven clan but one or two... then he could use a small table because there'd only be on clan left and only need a couple of seats at the table.
Of course, fully wiping out such clans might be tricky if they have extented relatives living on different continents, etc. but hey. In theory.... if you mow down enough people...

When the size of an explosion increases, the number of social problems it can't solve approaches zero...

Spoiler

Show

and that would be bad

[Wizard_Lizard]

Hopefully it doesn't take them TOO long to find a replacement table. If the snarl breaks free and they can't end the world without a resolved vote....

do you think that the snarl would wait? just ask it politely and see...

[Aetius]

I feel that how he died is directly related to his goal--if he didn't have the goal, he'd have (probably) felt there was no reason to talk to Durkon* privately.

Beeing killed in a freak mining accident is related to the goal of doing your duty by mining some ore in the very same way - if you didn't do that you wouldn't be there and hence would not be in harm's way in the first place.
I wouldn't call that "directly related" and it doesn't seems to be not enough to stamp your ticket. Or Sigdi wasted her money.

the Deva processing Roy admitted they didn't punish people for making poor decisions (can't link the comic at the moment, but I think she said something like "We don't punish people for making mistakes in their judgment of what is best in any given situation ").

First of all: The deva was judging Roy's alignement - not honor. It's been clearly established that the bet doesn't work that way.

Second of all: I don't think competency or sound tactics are an issue either. But an effort has to be made. An unarmed girl punching an armoured gard in the face while heavily outnumbered? Futile but apparently considered honorable. But what did Gontor do?

The best argument so far has been him trying to warn others about the vampire - which is pure speculation.

The point is - beeing sent to Hel is not a punishment. To get there you don't need to do anything wrong. If you don't get a chance to do something that's considered to be honorable you just lose. It's not supposed to be fair.

The issue here is that some people have linked The Giant stating that a politician being assassinated because of their political activities is still an honourable death, and given that said politician most likely didn't explicitly agree to being assassinated that day that means that unexpected deaths are not a disqualifier for an honourable death, with unexpected here including deaths which didn't give you much time to react.

True. But I think the important part is that the politician was murdered "because of it". As I understand it this doesn't just mean any form of causality. If he advocate his believes by traveling to a town to give a speech and whilest he crosses a bridge to enter that town it collapses due to an unrelated accident. I don't believe that's enough.
On the other hand: If he's assassinated to stop him from advocating that cause he is opposed. There is a struggle going on and he is actively participating because the thing he is advocating is part of the struggle.

Gontor's political aims were not part of the struggle that killed him because Greg didn't oppose them - he didn't even care.

Not applicable to Greg, since the meeting was suspended, but Curly used her supernatural ability to mist out while the council was still in session. Is that a problem? Shouldn’t she have been petrified when she used that ability on a(ny) creature (herself)?

Honestly, I don’t really care. Even if it’s a mistake, it could imho be justified as a “we didn’t consider vampiric misting when developing the wards.”

Maybe the ward only accounts for abilities affecting other creatures not the caster itself and Gontor simply omitted that part because it didn't matter for what he was trying to explain.
It does make sense since it's about protecting the participants from each other and not themselves but of course that's speculation too.

[Squire Doodad]

do you think that the snarl would wait? just ask it politely and see...

The Snarl is obviously very intelligent and polite and just is minding its own business until the last rift is opened. Then it's fair game to destroy all things. You see, it only attacked when Laurin started scanning the rift and talked about going into its home and setting up magical doodads. Complete self-defense!

[Dion]

Let’s assume that Curly using a supernatural ability (to turn to mist form) during a council meeting was illegal, and she should have been stoned.

But suppose you get turned to stone at the end of the turn (i.e. after everyone else has completed their actions for that turn). Also, suppose the meeting was suspended and the wards dropped in the same turn that Curly misted out. If both of those conditions were true, then Curly (or any other dwarf breaking the law on the final turn of the meeting) probably wouldn’t have been turned to stone.

Or maybe turning to mist form is allowed in the bylaws, because some old council member from 786 years ago was infected with Dwarven Mistitis, where dwarves randomly mist out when under stress if they fail a fortify save.

[JT]

Or maybe turning to mist form is allowed in the bylaws, because some old council member from 786 years ago was infected with Dwarven Mistitis, where dwarves randomly mist out when under stress if they fail a fortify save.

This is my new head-canon. “I suffer from inflammation of the mist”

[Fish]

Nebulitis, I think you’ll find.

[Quebbster]

I am reminded of the discussion about whether the cleric of Dvalin would be stoned when casting Summon Proxy. Maybe using spells/supernatural abilities on yourself is allowed by dwarven law?

[D.One]

I am reminded of the discussion about whether the cleric of Dvalin would be stoned when casting Summon Proxy. Maybe using spells/supernatural abilities on yourself is allowed by dwarven law?

Probably this, but I like the Nebulitis Inveterata loophole.

[Squire Doodad]

Probably this, but I like the Nebulitis Inveterata loophole.

Either, signs point to "she lived".

[The Aboleth]

Beeing killed in a freak mining accident is related to the goal of doing your duty by mining some ore in the very same way - if you didn't do that you wouldn't be there and hence would not be in harm's way in the first place.
I wouldn't call that "directly related" and it doesn't seems to be not enough to stamp your ticket. Or Sigdi wasted her money.

Mining for ore and advancing a religious cause because you are a high ranking (if not THE highest ranking) member of your religion are, to me, not nearly on the same level. That's a personal opinion, I'll grant you, but based on the "assassinated politician scenario" I think the Gods make a distinction between "Doing a menial job" and "Doing a job in which you have a direct effect on how society and/or important organizations are shaped" (the politician and head Cleric, respectively). The latter, in my headcanon, is honorable enough.

First of all: The deva was judging Roy's alignement - not honor. It's been clearly established that the bet doesn't work that way.

I see no reason why the same thought process couldn't also apply when considering the question of whether a death is honorable or not.

Second of all: I don't think competency or sound tactics are an issue either. But an effort has to be made. An unarmed girl punching an armoured gard in the face while heavily outnumbered? Futile but apparently considered honorable. But what did Gontor do?

The best argument so far has been him trying to warn others about the vampire - which is pure speculation.

Again, if we accept that getting assassinated--which implies no chance of a retaliatory attack--isn't an automatic disqualification for honorable-ness (honorability?), then why should we assume Gontor's death is?

But really, this whole point you raise is predicated on the idea that Gontor was fleeing, and after re-reading the comic I actually don't think he was:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html

Panel 7: Gontor is clearly confused, but is facing Durkon*--he's not trying to flee.

Panel 8: Gontor is facing the other direction now as Durkon* bites Gontor's neck. Gontor is shocked/scared at this.

Looking at that sequence, I actually don't think Gontor was fleeing at all--I think it's far more likely that Durkon* simply spun him around to get a better angle at biting Gontor's neck (someone in this thread actually brought this up earlier, apologies for not remembering who). So if you buy that interpretation of the scene, then really the question becomes "Does lacking the chance to attack automatically make the death dishonorable?" And to that, I would again cite the "assassinated politician scenario" as evidence for answering, "No, it's not automatically dishonorable."

The point is - beeing sent to Hel is not a punishment.

The Dwarves would probably disagree.

To get there you don't need to do anything wrong. If you don't get a chance to do something that's considered to be honorable you just lose. It's not supposed to be fair.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? We have it on record from the author the Dwarves got a raw deal, and even if we didn't I wasn't arguing that point anyway. Were you maybe trying to respond to someone else (seriously asking, not trying to be a jerk here)?

True. But I think the important part is that the politician was murdered "because of it". As I understand it this doesn't just mean any form of causality. If he advocate his believes by traveling to a town to give a speech and whilest he crosses a bridge to enter that town it collapses due to an unrelated accident. I don't believe that's enough.

I think I agree with you on the bridge collapse not being honorable, but what complicates it for me is the fact that we also know dying in a blizzard while delivering supplies is honorable. So maybe we just chalk it up to "It's all a case-by-case basis, and sometimes the Gods don't want to dispute cases with Hel because it's too uphill a battle"? Thor successfully arguing for the "shot in the back Dwarf" well after the fact seems to suggest any death can be considered "honorable" if Hel agrees, so really the whole system is a mess anyway (as we already knew).

Gontor's political aims were not part of the struggle that killed him because Greg didn't oppose them - he didn't even care.

Not part of the physical struggle that resulted in his death, sure, but Gontor's aims were absolutely part of the wider struggle of non-theistic religions to gain formal recognition--that's why he wanted to speak to Durkon* alone in the first place. To say Gontor's aims had no part in his death is way off the mark, in my opinion.

And even if I conceded that point, he still died in the course of carrying out his duties as Host of the Godsmoot** (escorting a diety's representative to where the vote will be held). So I think a case could be made he was doing his honorable duty there, too, though I personally feel the first point I made is a stronger one.

**Or whatever his formal title was