The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #421
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    So hereís the real question in my mind. When danger rears its ugly head, Curly* bravely runs away every time.

    Do you suppose Curly** was the same way? In life, did she always run at the first sign of danger?

    How much personality actually transfers from the host to the new vampire?
    Too bad we already named her Curly. We could've called her Sir Robin.


    It's been a while since we referenced Python

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I really hope this book ends with (by that I mean, the ending includes) Minrah, Protector of Temples and Slayer of Nameless Vampires becoming an adventurer.
    That's something to hope for.

    Maybe even a spin off with the adventurers of her group, or maybe with her as leader of an undead-slaying faction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    It is a holy relic of Thor, so it is Mjolnir-adjacent.
    I'd say it's at least Mjolnir-thrice removed...


    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    So hereís the real question in my mind. When danger rears its ugly head, Curly* bravely runs away every time.

    Do you suppose Curly** was the same way? In life, did she always run at the first sign of danger?

    How much personality actually transfers from the host to the new vampire?
    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Iíd say Curly** was the opposite, she ran directly into danger, no matter the size, and so Curly doesnít like that.
    I'd say it's possible that host and vampire share some traits. That said, we may suppose Curly's "worst day" may be related to a moment of great fear (or great regret over a bold and corageous failure), making Curly*'s first instinct to flee when peril arrives.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    It is a holy relic of Thor
    So is an old cleric, but I ain't calling them Mjolnir-adjacent!
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain avatar by the wonderfully talented Cuthalion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
    All hail the dragon.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by chuntuk View Post
    Delurking to raise a point that I don't think has been made yet...

    I think Gontor* is wrong here:



    But here's what the rules say (with my interpolations in {}):



    A card table wouldn't be big enough for every clan rep to stand before, it doesn't matter how many of them are actually still standing. The table size is an absolute requirement.

    Of course, Gontor* has only just learned of the rule, making up plans on the fly isn't his core competency, and it really doesn't matter now anyway. But why should any of that stop a forum posting?
    I agree with you-- I just think Gontor was so mad / flustered he just said whatever he could think of in the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Oh, she surely saw Minrah, Protector of Temples and Slayer of Nameless Vampires, approaching.
    Her title is The Dwarf Who Came Back From Valhalla.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Her title is The Dwarf Who Came Back From Valhalla.
    So be it:

    Minrah Elle Shaleshoe (Blade Van Helsing :-p)
    Grand Protector of Temples
    Slayer of Nameless Vampires
    She Who Came Back from Valhalla Itself to Crush Evil and Make Kid-based Decisions
    (Please enrich her titles further more)
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I agree with you-- I just think Gontor was so mad / flustered he just said whatever he could think of in the moment.



    Her title is The Dwarf Who Came Back From Valhalla.
    Weíll call her Minrah Shaleshoe, The Dwarf Who Came Back From Valhalla, Protector of Temples and Slayer of Nameless Vampires. We can keep stacking titles on her for everything she does like a Roman emperor until historians will call her by some derogatory childhood nickname after giving up.

    Now Iím not saying she will become the god empress of the dwarves when her adventuring days are over, but Iím not not saying it.

    EDIT:Before I finished writing this I saw what D. One what above me, but I didnít want to waste calling her a god empress so here I post a very similar thing.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    btw - I love this comic. I loved this comic (#1174) and I loved the ones leading up to it and the whole thing.

    Just haven't said that in a while.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    So be it:

    Minrah Elle Shaleshoe (Blade Van Helsing :-p)
    Grand Protector of Temples
    Slayer of Nameless Vampires
    She Who Came Back from Valhalla Itself to Crush Evil and Make Kid-based Decisions
    (Please enrich her titles further more)
    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Weíll call her Minrah Shaleshoe, The Dwarf Who Came Back From Valhalla, Protector of Temples and Slayer of Nameless Vampires. We can keep stacking titles on her for everything she does like a Roman emperor until historians will call her by some derogatory childhood nickname after giving up.

    Now Iím not saying she will become the god empress of the dwarves when her adventuring days are over, but Iím not not saying it.

    EDIT:Before I finished writing this I saw what D. One what above me, but I didnít want to waste calling her a god empress so here I post a very similar thing.
    Heh. Well, I just liked it because it seems reasonable that a dwarf has killed a vampire before now, but has a dwarf ever in this world had their ticket to Valhalla punched and decided, "No, I'm going back"?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Heh. Well, I just liked it because it seems reasonable that a dwarf has killed a vampire before now, but has a dwarf ever in this world had their ticket to Valhalla punched and decided, "No, I'm going back"?
    Had their ticket to Valhalla punched and brought back? Yes. Asked before their death to be brought back even if they die with honor? Yes.

    Died with honor, talked to Thor himself, got a drinks upgrade, was pre-cleared to get in, and then said "Thor know, I want to go home"?

    She might be a trendsetter.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Heh. Well, I just liked it because it seems reasonable that a dwarf has killed a vampire before now, but has a dwarf ever in this world had their ticket to Valhalla punched and decided, "No, I'm going back"?
    Durkon?

    But assuming he doesn't count, probably yes. I would imagine there are plenty of young dwarves who decide they aren't ready to give up on living a mortal life just because they died honorably. Its probably only the older dwarves who start considering that, because death by old age is almost certainly dishonorable, and certainly irreversible.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Best be careful with all the long-naming of Minrah. See what happened to Daenerys on Song of Ice and Fire.
    "Character is what you are in the dark." - D.L. Moody
    Life's too short to be ashamed of how you were born.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by chuntuk View Post
    Delurking to raise a point that I don't think has been made yet...

    I think Gontor* is wrong here:

    But here's what the rules say (with my interpolations in {}):


    A card table wouldn't be big enough for every clan rep to stand before, it doesn't matter how many of them are actually still standing. The table size is an absolute requirement.
    Of course, Gontor* has only just learned of the rule, making up plans on the fly isn't his core competency, and it really doesn't matter now anyway. But why should any of that stop a forum posting?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I agree with you-- I just think Gontor was so mad / flustered he just said whatever he could think of in the moment.
    Her title is The Dwarf Who Came Back From Valhalla.
    However, if Gontor* went ahead and completely exterminated every dwarven clan but one or two... then he could use a small table because there'd only be on clan left and only need a couple of seats at the table.
    Of course, fully wiping out such clans might be tricky if they have extented relatives living on different continents, etc. but hey. In theory.... if you mow down enough people...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandor View Post
    However, if Gontor* went ahead and completely exterminated every dwarven clan but one or two... then he could use a small table because there'd only be on clan left and only need a couple of seats at the table.
    Of course, fully wiping out such clans might be tricky if they have extented relatives living on different continents, etc. but hey. In theory.... if you mow down enough people...
    I know a genderqueer person who knows some guys who know a girl who can do it.

  14. - Top - End - #434
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    smile Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    I really love the dynamic of the dwarven family & friends being a major resource in this encounter. I don't recall seeing Rich use that device before! Excellent!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Hopefully it doesn't take them TOO long to find a replacement table. If the snarl breaks free and they can't end the world without a resolved vote....

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    If The Snarl breaks free they will destroy the world in ten seconds anyway.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Skull the Troll View Post
    Hopefully it doesn't take them TOO long to find a replacement table. If the snarl breaks free and they can't end the world without a resolved vote....
    The vote at the Godsmoot is whether to destroy the world before the Snarl escapes. If it escapes, I'm 100% sure they'll destroy the world immediately, regardless of whether the vote is still outstanding or not.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The vote at the Godsmoot is whether to destroy the world before the Snarl escapes. If it escapes, I'm 100% sure they'll destroy the world immediately, regardless of whether the vote is still outstanding or not.
    Haven't they already agreed to that?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So is an old cleric, but I ain't calling them Mjolnir-adjacent!
    But he'll most likely return, if you throw him. But he won't stop and let you catch him, he'll make sure you won't throw him again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandor View Post
    However, if Gontor* went ahead and completely exterminated every dwarven clan but one or two... then he could use a small table because there'd only be on clan left and only need a couple of seats at the table.
    Of course, fully wiping out such clans might be tricky if they have extented relatives living on different continents, etc. but hey. In theory.... if you mow down enough people...
    When the size of an explosion increases, the number of social problems it can't solve approaches zero...

    Spoiler
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    and that would be bad

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Skull the Troll View Post
    Hopefully it doesn't take them TOO long to find a replacement table. If the snarl breaks free and they can't end the world without a resolved vote....
    do you think that the snarl would wait? just ask it politely and see...
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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    I feel that how he died is directly related to his goal--if he didn't have the goal, he'd have (probably) felt there was no reason to talk to Durkon* privately.
    Beeing killed in a freak mining accident is related to the goal of doing your duty by mining some ore in the very same way - if you didn't do that you wouldn't be there and hence would not be in harm's way in the first place.
    I wouldn't call that "directly related" and it doesn't seems to be not enough to stamp your ticket. Or Sigdi wasted her money.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    the Deva processing Roy admitted they didn't punish people for making poor decisions (can't link the comic at the moment, but I think she said something like "We don't punish people for making mistakes in their judgment of what is best in any given situation ").
    First of all: The deva was judging Roy's alignement - not honor. It's been clearly established that the bet doesn't work that way.

    Second of all: I don't think competency or sound tactics are an issue either. But an effort has to be made. An unarmed girl punching an armoured gard in the face while heavily outnumbered? Futile but apparently considered honorable. But what did Gontor do?

    The best argument so far has been him trying to warn others about the vampire - which is pure speculation.

    The point is - beeing sent to Hel is not a punishment. To get there you don't need to do anything wrong. If you don't get a chance to do something that's considered to be honorable you just lose. It's not supposed to be fair.


    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    The issue here is that some people have linked The Giant stating that a politician being assassinated because of their political activities is still an honourable death, and given that said politician most likely didn't explicitly agree to being assassinated that day that means that unexpected deaths are not a disqualifier for an honourable death, with unexpected here including deaths which didn't give you much time to react.
    True. But I think the important part is that the politician was murdered "because of it". As I understand it this doesn't just mean any form of causality. If he advocate his believes by traveling to a town to give a speech and whilest he crosses a bridge to enter that town it collapses due to an unrelated accident. I don't believe that's enough.
    On the other hand: If he's assassinated to stop him from advocating that cause he is opposed. There is a struggle going on and he is actively participating because the thing he is advocating is part of the struggle.

    Gontor's political aims were not part of the struggle that killed him because Greg didn't oppose them - he didn't even care.

    Quote Originally Posted by JT View Post
    Not applicable to Greg, since the meeting was suspended, but Curly used her supernatural ability to mist out while the council was still in session. Is that a problem? Shouldnít she have been petrified when she used that ability on a(ny) creature (herself)?

    Honestly, I donít really care. Even if itís a mistake, it could imho be justified as a ďwe didnít consider vampiric misting when developing the wards.Ē
    Maybe the ward only accounts for abilities affecting other creatures not the caster itself and Gontor simply omitted that part because it didn't matter for what he was trying to explain.
    It does make sense since it's about protecting the participants from each other and not themselves but of course that's speculation too.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    do you think that the snarl would wait? just ask it politely and see...
    The Snarl is obviously very intelligent and polite and just is minding its own business until the last rift is opened. Then it's fair game to destroy all things. You see, it only attacked when Laurin started scanning the rift and talked about going into its home and setting up magical doodads. Complete self-defense!
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Letís assume that Curly using a supernatural ability (to turn to mist form) during a council meeting was illegal, and she should have been stoned.

    But suppose you get turned to stone at the end of the turn (i.e. after everyone else has completed their actions for that turn). Also, suppose the meeting was suspended and the wards dropped in the same turn that Curly misted out. If both of those conditions were true, then Curly (or any other dwarf breaking the law on the final turn of the meeting) probably wouldnít have been turned to stone.

    Or maybe turning to mist form is allowed in the bylaws, because some old council member from 786 years ago was infected with Dwarven Mistitis, where dwarves randomly mist out when under stress if they fail a fortify save.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-08-14 at 09:57 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Or maybe turning to mist form is allowed in the bylaws, because some old council member from 786 years ago was infected with Dwarven Mistitis, where dwarves randomly mist out when under stress if they fail a fortify save.
    This is my new head-canon. ďI suffer from inflammation of the mistĒ

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Nebulitis, I think youíll find.
    The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    I am reminded of the discussion about whether the cleric of Dvalin would be stoned when casting Summon Proxy. Maybe using spells/supernatural abilities on yourself is allowed by dwarven law?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quebbster View Post
    I am reminded of the discussion about whether the cleric of Dvalin would be stoned when casting Summon Proxy. Maybe using spells/supernatural abilities on yourself is allowed by dwarven law?
    Probably this, but I like the Nebulitis Inveterata loophole.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles donít hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Probably this, but I like the Nebulitis Inveterata loophole.
    Either, signs point to "she lived".
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
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    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
    -Squire Doodad

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    Default Re: OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aetius View Post
    Beeing killed in a freak mining accident is related to the goal of doing your duty by mining some ore in the very same way - if you didn't do that you wouldn't be there and hence would not be in harm's way in the first place.
    I wouldn't call that "directly related" and it doesn't seems to be not enough to stamp your ticket. Or Sigdi wasted her money.
    Mining for ore and advancing a religious cause because you are a high ranking (if not THE highest ranking) member of your religion are, to me, not nearly on the same level. That's a personal opinion, I'll grant you, but based on the "assassinated politician scenario" I think the Gods make a distinction between "Doing a menial job" and "Doing a job in which you have a direct effect on how society and/or important organizations are shaped" (the politician and head Cleric, respectively). The latter, in my headcanon, is honorable enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aetius View Post
    First of all: The deva was judging Roy's alignement - not honor. It's been clearly established that the bet doesn't work that way.
    I see no reason why the same thought process couldn't also apply when considering the question of whether a death is honorable or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aetius View Post
    Second of all: I don't think competency or sound tactics are an issue either. But an effort has to be made. An unarmed girl punching an armoured gard in the face while heavily outnumbered? Futile but apparently considered honorable. But what did Gontor do?

    The best argument so far has been him trying to warn others about the vampire - which is pure speculation.
    Again, if we accept that getting assassinated--which implies no chance of a retaliatory attack--isn't an automatic disqualification for honorable-ness (honorability?), then why should we assume Gontor's death is?

    But really, this whole point you raise is predicated on the idea that Gontor was fleeing, and after re-reading the comic I actually don't think he was:

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html

    Panel 7: Gontor is clearly confused, but is facing Durkon*--he's not trying to flee.

    Panel 8: Gontor is facing the other direction now as Durkon* bites Gontor's neck. Gontor is shocked/scared at this.

    Looking at that sequence, I actually don't think Gontor was fleeing at all--I think it's far more likely that Durkon* simply spun him around to get a better angle at biting Gontor's neck (someone in this thread actually brought this up earlier, apologies for not remembering who). So if you buy that interpretation of the scene, then really the question becomes "Does lacking the chance to attack automatically make the death dishonorable?" And to that, I would again cite the "assassinated politician scenario" as evidence for answering, "No, it's not automatically dishonorable."

    Quote Originally Posted by Aetius View Post
    The point is - beeing sent to Hel is not a punishment.
    The Dwarves would probably disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aetius View Post
    To get there you don't need to do anything wrong. If you don't get a chance to do something that's considered to be honorable you just lose. It's not supposed to be fair.
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? We have it on record from the author the Dwarves got a raw deal, and even if we didn't I wasn't arguing that point anyway. Were you maybe trying to respond to someone else (seriously asking, not trying to be a jerk here)?


    Quote Originally Posted by Aetius View Post
    True. But I think the important part is that the politician was murdered "because of it". As I understand it this doesn't just mean any form of causality. If he advocate his believes by traveling to a town to give a speech and whilest he crosses a bridge to enter that town it collapses due to an unrelated accident. I don't believe that's enough.
    I think I agree with you on the bridge collapse not being honorable, but what complicates it for me is the fact that we also know dying in a blizzard while delivering supplies is honorable. So maybe we just chalk it up to "It's all a case-by-case basis, and sometimes the Gods don't want to dispute cases with Hel because it's too uphill a battle"? Thor successfully arguing for the "shot in the back Dwarf" well after the fact seems to suggest any death can be considered "honorable" if Hel agrees, so really the whole system is a mess anyway (as we already knew).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aetius View Post
    Gontor's political aims were not part of the struggle that killed him because Greg didn't oppose them - he didn't even care.
    Not part of the physical struggle that resulted in his death, sure, but Gontor's aims were absolutely part of the wider struggle of non-theistic religions to gain formal recognition--that's why he wanted to speak to Durkon* alone in the first place. To say Gontor's aims had no part in his death is way off the mark, in my opinion.

    And even if I conceded that point, he still died in the course of carrying out his duties as Host of the Godsmoot** (escorting a diety's representative to where the vote will be held). So I think a case could be made he was doing his honorable duty there, too, though I personally feel the first point I made is a stronger one.

    **Or whatever his formal title was
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-08-14 at 11:28 AM.

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