OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

[deuterio12]

And the Exarch died as he lived... ranting impotently at things he couldn't change. His entire plan was based around avoiding a direct conflict to instead abuse the rules to win, so the moment that he tried to make use of the fact that the rules were no longer in place his fate was sealed.

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.
-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.
-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.
-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.
-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.
-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?
-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.

It didn't matter what the Exarch did, the plot was always for him to lose. He could've misted and it would turn out Durkon's family can shoot force beams from their eyes or something.

[chiefwaha]

Actually they can't. They are allowed one move action, or one attack action; misting out is neither a move nor an attack.

I read attack attack action as standard action. Perhaps not RAW, but how I'd interpret it. Either way he's destroyed.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I'm sure they did it with some help, but Minrah, level reduced Minrah, took down Noname who can cast 5th level spells?

[Resileaf]

I'm sure they did it with some help, but Minrah, level reduced Minrah, took down Noname who can cast 5th level spells?

The entire family probably fought her, but Minrah was the one who was left to pull her over.

[chiefwaha]

-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?

He still has to activate on his turn though, and he'd already attacked. And the grappling was more to throw him into the light than to actually prevent him from doing anything.

[pendell]

Dwarves rock. Nuff said.

Something that makes me especially happy is that the dwarves are solving this pretty much by themselves with Durkon's help. Something that irritated me back at the godsmoot was that it seemed no one had any agency except the OOTS proper. That is most definitely no longer the case; while Durkon has been a primary agent here, he has been ably supported by his family ...

family that is alive, in part, because of Sigdi's generous action to have total strangers resurrected.

So the good deeds Sigdi and Durkon come full circle , and pays off in the salvation of the world.

Bravo!

One slightly sad note is that we were not able to retrieve Gontor's corpse, so the original host is out of reach of any save true resurrection. I also note that the curly-haired vampire seems to have escaped. But this is a fine ending!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ManuelSacha]

That line from Sigdi was an instant favourite, for me.
Edgelords like to think that rules protect the world from them, when it's actually the other way around.

[The_Weirdo]

Turns out Sigdi isn't a person, she's a non-profit organization.

[Worldsong]

He was thinking that, like him, they would have had no time to form an emotional connection with anyone but would be extremely angry at a particular group of people and he offered them revenge and power.

Also the non-spellcaster vampires behaved as childishly as he did: «*she burned us with the bad light*»

I'd still find it doubtful he'd be willing to take the risk. Greg emphasized how his own personality was vital to him actually agreeing to Hel's plan, I'd find it mildly dissatisfying if that is kind of shoved into the corner by the implication that every other vampire can just be bribed with promises of power.

Im pretty sure the appearance count thread counts him as not appearing until Malack died, which is a vote for thralls not having much free will.

Ehm... isn't that thread entirely community based? I don't think it's a proper reflection of The Giant's thoughts.

[Aetius]

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.

It didn't. Belkar was just knocked out by Roy using non-leathal demage and woke up because the clasp hurt him (protection from himself as it were). Or at least that's how I read it.

-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.

That's because he didn't use the right villainous remark when he summoned it. Wormfood - that's the magic word!
But then again - him conveniently pulling that scroll out of his sweet creed past wasn't established beforehand either.

-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.

Sweet time? It was awfully quick for a meeting of a bureaucratic body like that. They hardly started discussing the issue.

-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.

None of the vampires had any reason to prepare that spell - even if it would work given the size of the table and the wording of the rules. But let's not get that debate started again...

-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?

Grappling? No.
Sunlight? Apparently so. I didn't know either.

-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.

Well...kinda.

[Hekko]

Ohh, I love this. Minrah is awesome. Thanks, Rich.

[jwhouk]

Minrah FTW!

Minrah has the best punchline, and it doesn't involve words.

Did anyone hear a "ding"? Because I think Minrah just leveled up.

[Wysper]

Does anyone else think that Sigdi is gonna be invited to join the council? She clearly has a large clan following her.

[The Pilgrim]

So, only culry hair is left. Assuming the Order hasn't noticed her misty form trying to escape. V should have sone spells thay can affect a Vampire in misty form.

[Lord Torath]

Hah! Just noticed the comic title! Thanks, Mr. The Giant! I needed that!

I'm pretty sure Curly is still in the room. There are only two exits, and one of them is full of sunlight. The other was full of dwarves. She can't go through the one, and the dwarves should have noticed her going through the other. (Of course, now that I've said that, it's likely one will announce her departure in the next strip.

Also, Minrah is awesome. I bet it won't be long before she's a part of the family too! Either Sigdi will adopt her (unlikely), or one of Durkon's many cousins will recognize how amazing she is and start courting her.

I suspect there could be a replacement table kept nearby, and as soon as it's in place, they can complete the vote and unstone Durkon.

I also like the idea of dragging Durkon through the orange barrier, and leaving the Godsmoot vote in limbo for several weeks until they can make a new one. By which time, of course, the Order of the Stick and Cloak^TM will have wrapped up this Snarl business once and for all.

His fate was sealed from the start, <snip>

Now that, I'll grant you. Rich knew exactly what was going to happen to this guy. The rest of your screed I won't waste energy countering. It's been done enough already.

[Worldsong]

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:

I accept this challenge.

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.

It didn't heal him, he was knocked unconscious and the shock of the clasp woke him up. That may not be explicitly stated as something Protection From Evil can do but it was shown before that for Belkar activating that clasp is quite the experience.

-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.

That worm did a pretty good job keeping Durkon and the Order out until they got reinforcements. Also, the Order is in fact a high level party by this point, so it's not strange that they would actually be able to fight the worm and do pretty well. And the reason why the vampire spawn were more effective is because they relied on trickery rather than brute force, which is always a smart move.

-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.

His family has been foreshadowed massively and most of them aren't even that strong, they're just stronger than a bunch of guards who aren't fighting in their best capacity because their minds aren't working right. The Giant has rather consistently portrayed dominated people as not being at their best.

-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.

Politics/bureaucracy being a slow process? Absolutely impossible, immersion ruined, send in the cops to arrest The Giant for unrealistic portrayal of a formal meeting.

-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.

The only reason they would prepare that spell at all when they expect their next day to be entirely about fighting and delaying the Order of the Stick is if they were aware the table might need fixing, and the Exarch clearly forgot about that because story characters can still make mistakes or overlook things. Also there's debate whether fixing the table would actually work since one could nitpick that it being healed doesn't make it unbroken, just repaired.

-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?

I've got the 3.5 SRD on hand, Misting is a standard action. Regardless of whether it's Su or not a standard action remains a standard action, and the family didn't give him the opportunity before getting him into the sunlight. And a vampire can't take a standard action when exposed to sunlight.

-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.

3.5 SRD does not mention anything about auto-misting, it just states that a vampire at 0 HP is incapacitated.

EDIT: on second readthrough I'll have to concede yes the SRD DOES actually mention vampires misting at 0 HP. However it also states that if they can't reach their coffin within 2 hours they're destroyed, so while I'll admit that what Minrah did isn't entirely according to the standard rules it doesn't actually change much because none of these vampires had a coffin and Sandy would have died either way. This way it's just more comical.

It didn't matter what the Exarch did, the plot was always for him to lose. He could've misted and it would turn out Durkon's family can shoot force beams from their eyes or something.

Yes the plot had him lose but it didn't do so by warping the story. It just made everything fall together in the right way. And yes some of the thing which made him lose were caused by bad luck or dumb decisions but the good guys get plenty of that as well so it's not reality warping for the bad guys to suffer from it as well.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I love Minrah.

Now someone fix Durkon from being stoned.

Hell be automatically fixed once the meeting is resolved. But, yeah, it would be great if they c could fix him sooner.

[Leftour]

Epic and in a way grim and brutal. Messing with a dwarven clan is something one does NOT want to do.

Also it looks like the barriers are down, thus the rest of the party can come in. My guess is that Elan will mend the table so that the meeting can resume without further delay. Good for Durkon, an expedition to find and take down an oak that big would probably involve the mobilization of the entire dwarven army...


P.S. I really hope that Rich fixes Sigdi`s axe before the book gets in print. In the last 2 strips it is the dwarven waraxe that fell down the chasm, not the replacement battleaxe she got. A minor continuity error but it bugs my ocd side unreasonably since i noticed it :P

[Peelee]

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.

It didn't heal, it caused him pain, which is a well-known trope for waking an unconscious character.

-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.

Action economy exists, and the worm would have killed Roy almost instantly if he didn't have a Wizard who specialized in Hand spells.

-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.

Source on the guards being elite, or an army? There look to be a few of them, and nothing about them says they're anything other than low-level. Also, they had most of the night and morning to contact them and get the family there, I'd hardly call that a moment's notice (though this is the point that has the most merit behind it).

-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.

The dominated elders sure seem to be voting pretty quickly.

-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.

That the spell exists doesn't mean that any of the clerics prepared it that day.

-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it.

During the vampire's turn, sure. He used his action that round to drain Sigdi. Again, action economy.

-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.

Vampires also have coffins they have to retreat to. These are coffin-less vampires, so they're already under special rules. This is clearly an extension of those special rules. Not to mention that the comic follows D&D rules until it doesn't, which has been a thing for a long time now.

[anonynos]

-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.

No. Just no. The fact that none of the rather limited number of people in that room cast the spell as an instantaneous reaction in order to keep the vote from being tabled (hehe) doesn't mean "it's been erased from existence". The spell exists, and quite possibly can fix the table. Right after they clear out that boulder, which I'm sure people will get right on.

[Fish]

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.

No evidence for this claim, except what I presume is your your assumption that Belkar was Unconscious strictly by the terms of D&D rules. Belkar had no damage markings; it is not clear he became Unconscious due to damage.

-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.

Hel always provides the strongest available? Don’t think so. I recall that the worm was the one she chose to send. Tactical mistakes are not reality rewrites.

-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.

Demonstrate ... any of this.

We have known for a long, long time that Durkon has a large family. It’s also been clear for some time that Sigdi had them rezzed because they died with dishonor — not in combat. We know when they awoke that some of them vowed to get back to combat-oriented specialties. My Surprise-O-Meter that Durkon has family members with class levels = 0.003%.

As for the rest: How do you know they’re all high level? How do you know they’re immune to domination? How is “overnight” the same as “a moment’s notice?” What evidence do you have that even one of them is a Mary Sue? “Effective in a large, planned tactical assault where they have a material advantage” != “Mary Sue.” Otherwise, Star Wars stormtroopers are all Mary Sues.

-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.

Compared to what? They didn’t even read the minutes of the last meeting or pass out snacks.

-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.

Is it not more likely that Gontor loaded up on combat spells? No, no, we must assume that Rich is cheating completely by erasing spells from the universe, than that Durkon had a good strategy that Gontor did not foresee.

-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?

The same rules that say “Sunlight stops misting.”

-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.

I’ll give you this one. I don’t understand how vampires can be unconscious, by the rules as I know them; but see “Rich doesn’t have to follow the rules of D&D in every panel.”

[gatemansgc]

One slightly sad note is that we were not able to retrieve Gontor's corpse, so the original host is out of reach of any save true resurrection. I also note that the curly-haired vampire seems to have escaped. But this is a fine ending!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

the dust from a destroyed vampire is enough for resurrection tho

[Fyraltari]

One slightly sad note is that we were not able to retrieve Gontor's corpse, so the original host is out of reach of any save true resurrection. I also note that the curly-haired vampire seems to have escaped. But this is a fine ending!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

They didn’t need a True Rez for Durkon. But I doubt they are going to Raise all forty-odd dead vampires.

I'd still find it doubtful he'd be willing to take the risk. Greg emphasized how his own personality was vital to him actually agreeing to Hel's plan, I'd find it mildly dissatisfying if that is kind of shoved into the corner by the implication that every other vampire can just be bribed with promises of power.

Well for one, they’re all Clerics so it’s more natural they’d turn to the goddess that would still give them power. And they’ve all been around for less than two days when he had much more time to develop. And and he had to do the whole thing while they could jump in on a plan underway. And and and he could killed the ones who disagreed offscreen as he raised them.

[Jasdoif]

During the vampire's turn, sure. He used his action that round to drain Sigdi. Again, action economy.

Or the more boring answer: Escaping the grapple traditionally would put him outside the grapple, meaning he would be outside the sunlight if he succeeded on his action (as opposed to being sunbathed in gaseous form).

[Worldsong]

Well, that's at least four people who quickly shot down that list.

Deuterio, The Giant has made it clear that story goes before DnD rules. Any argument based on the DnD rules not accommodating something inside the comic holds no water because The Giant never gave himself the limitation that everything he does has to strictly be in line with the rules of DnD 3.5e. To find an error in the story you have to find an inconsistency within the comic itself, not an inconsistency with the rules of DnD 3.5e.

Also a lot of your arguments are taking minor things and blowing them out of proportion with the most negative perspective, and there is no story which stands up to the critique of someone who from the start is determined to dislike it.

Well for one, they’re all Clerics so it’s more natural they’d turn to the goddess that would still give them power. And they’ve all been around for less than two days when he had much more time to develop. And and he had to do the whole thing while they could jump in on a plan underway. And and and he could killed the ones who disagreed offscreen as he raised them.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying I find it unlikely and would find the alternative more interesting.

[Grey Watcher]

His fate was sealed from the start, reality kept changing to screw him:

-Vampire Durkon's victory is stolen because Belkar's clasp suddenly turns out to have a healing function.

It's admittedly visually ambiguous, but I think the intent is that Roy's "Stay down!" inflicted a condition like Stunned or something on him, rather than non-lethal damage. Whatever discomfort his clasp gives him when activated was, functionally, equivalent to being shaken awake (similar to how one can take an action to rouse an unconscious person without damaging them, assuming nothing is keeping them down like non-lethal damage or magic). Not pedantically explicit, but still holds up, I think.

-Spend an high-level item to try to get the strongest monster Hel had available and only get a failcrawler that did less than the lesser vampire spawn.

Hey, many's a good plan that has been ruined by bad dice rolls. It happens.

-Turns out that Durkon has a massive family of high-level mary sues that can easily be rallied at a moment's notice and roflstomp whole armies of elite dwarf guards while also being all dominate-immune and whatnot.

It honestly feels like, except for Not-Thad, they win more by sheer press of numbers than individual Mary Sueness. THey seem to be fighting defensively or outright going Total Defense against the earth elementals until the actual Marty Stu character can be brought in to play. They bypass the worm rather than fight it (only Kandro engages and dies for his trouble), and the guards are probably ceremonial. (If I were in charge of the military I wouldn't waste solid, high level characters on guard duty on a hall that gets used like three times a year.) The real Elite, Poop-Your-Pants-Worthy Dwarven warriors are probably off having border skirmishes with Drow or something.

-The council took taking their sweet time calling the votes.

It's not like we've previously established that the Council is some kind of rapid-fire decision making machine, so this hardly seems inconsistent.

-The core 2nd level spell Make Whole that could easily fixt the table and is available to all clerics by default is erased from existence.

There have been PAGES of debate on this forum about the word "unbroken." To say nothing of "Why would someone expecting to have to do a lot of fighting waste spell slots on Make Whole?"

-Turning to mist is a Su ability so no amount of grappling should stop it. Vampire Durkon could do it while having a freaking anti-undead sword through its chest. But what are rules for the mary sue family?

Turning to mist is a standard action. If he's in the light, he can do either a move or a standard action, but not both before perishing. So he's in the light, uses his one and only action to turn to mist and... is still in the light and dies.

-Vampires suddenly can be knocked unconscious and dragged around, nevermind that when reduced to 0 HP they'll auto-mist.

When is he knocked unconscious? (He closes his eyes, but that looks more like wincing from pain to me.) On his turn he attacks Sigdi, then everyone else gets their turn and he's subject to a dozen grapple checks and forced movement so that, by the time his turn comes around again, he's grappled and in the light, which brings us back to the above.

It didn't matter what the Exarch did, the plot was always for him to lose. He could've misted and it would turn out Durkon's family can shoot force beams from their eyes or something.

Really, the only thing here that seems anywhere remotely as sketchy as you imply is Belkar's recovery from being knocked unconscious (since the comic isn't bothering to visually differentiate between "got knocked out by non-lethal damage" versus "had the unconscious condition applied directly to him by some other means)."

[Dion]

One slightly sad note is that we were not able to retrieve Gontor's corpse, so the original host is out of reach of any save true resurrection. I also note that the curly-haired vampire seems to have escaped. But this is a fine ending! .

I believe Gontor left a pile of dust that would allow resurrection.

[JessmanCA]

This is why sunroofs are worth the extra fees at your local car dealership folks

[Peelee]

Or the more boring answer: Escaping the grapple traditionally would put him outside the grapple, meaning he would be outside the sunlight if he succeeded on his action (as opposed to being sunbathed in gaseous form).

Or the even more boring answer: He didn't beat the grapple checks of all their individual check results to escape.

[RatElemental]

Can't help but notice Logann is not in the mob and can't be seen behind them when they're rushing in. I hope I'm just reading too much into that.