Healing in combat SUCKS

[SpawnOfMorbo]

That's a real edge case though.
I'm sure we can all contrive situations where a judicious use of healing would be effective, but it's far more likely that the character will be either a) too close to zero to bother, or b) too far away from zero to bother.



This is the crux of it.
Unfortunately - if cure wounds was simply better at what it does, then suddenly the cleric goes from having lots of viable options, to only having one mechanically optimal thing to do; and then we're back into healbot territory.
There needs to be an opportunity cost associated with combat healing to make it a viable tactical option rather than a pointless waste of resources (yo-yo healing aside).

Make Cure Wounds a bonus action "touch" and keep Healing Word a bonus action "ranged" and things seems to work out.

The cleric can heal but it doesn't take away from doing cool things.

[jaappleton]

Healing in combat does suck, but nowhere near as bad as Strahd.

[erikun]

If you think healing in combat sucks, then you should see what happens when you aren't healing in combat.

As for the actual topic, combat healing is less effective than outright preventing damage. At low levels of D&D, I find that Shield of Faith (and in earlier versions, Protection from Evil) to be excellent spells at low levels. +2 AC is great when everybody has a low to-hit chance at 16AC is considered good. It can turn people into an absolute wall that can avoid scary amounts of damage at times. The tricky part is in managing your resources; if you blow the spell on a short fight or one where not many attacks happened, it might not be available for a critical heal or a combat where it is necessary. At slightly higher levels, around 4th or 5th in D&D5e, I find that Bless starts becoming the buff of choice to throw out. To-hit starts to outstrip AC and when enemies are rolling 24+ regularly, then it doesn't matter too much what armor anyone is wearing. But being able to give your top three characters bonuses on attacks means that they're almost always going to hit, and killing off the enemy is so much more effective than trying to heal 1d8+4 per turn.

So one of the keys to making healing not-suck is to give some viable options other than healing. I haven't found them all yet, as I've been playing D&D5e mostly by ear and trying out various stuff to see what works. Shield of Faith works best if you have a single frontline attacker, or at least just one somewhat low-AC character to buff up. It doesn't work if you are trying to keep several low-AC characters alive, though. Bless works well when you have two or three really high offense characters on the team, and probably less so if you are trying to buff yourself. "Hit the enemy with my Paladin" certainly is the most effective playstyle here. Perhaps it's just me, but I do like the resource management sort of style where I have to pick and choose which spells are the most useful for the job with each combat.

Another option is giving the healer something else to do. I love Spiritual Weapon for this. Regardless of what else I'm doing, I still get the chance to whack something in the head. It allows the healer to still participate in combat past just casting one heal and patting themselves on the back. The biggest concern is the resource management factor: spending a 2nd level spell slot for 1d8+4 damage a turn isn't the most efficient, so it's a judgement between if this will be effective or just a waste of a spell slot. I've found that the D&D5e Sacred Flame cantrip to be kind of useless in this regard, since a lot of times it feels like it's just asking the DM to roll and have nothing happen. I haven't had the chance to play around with Spirit Guardians yet.

As for healing, D&D5e Cleric has a good number of options. The tricky part is if you have enough spell slots of all of them. Cure Wounds is good and the most efficient in combat healing. Healing Word is necessary if you just can't reach a character and they absolutely need healing that turn (say, at two death saves). Prayer of Healing is amazing and absolutely takes care of any HP problems assuming there isn't a huge imbalance in damage being dealt around the party, although that's asking for a spell slot to something that's effectively a ritual in casting length.

I haven't tried multiclassing, so I'm not familiar with Druid, Bard, or Warlock options in that regard. I've not seen yo-yo healing as a concern given that things are going terribly wrong if somebody drops to 0 HP and they've lost whatever concentration effects they had going when that happens. Plus, being prone and (if not standing on the ground) dropping their weapons is a major problem. Maybe I've been lucky and my groups have been more RP-y than some, but I haven't run into the specific problems that a lot of people seem to have a concern with.


[EDIT] As an aside, I'm not sure if temporary hit points really resolve any situations I've been in. Giving temp HP rather than healing is really just putting the action in a different position in the turn order. Typically, you'd end up doing that immediately before combat, or on the first round, with the characters you expect to deal damage. The negative aspect is that it might be a wasted spell slot, although it's usually very easy to determine who will be attacked in most fights. Really, I've found that temp HP is just a "spend one spell before the fighting really begins" sort of situation so it doesn't affect the actions or options the healer has during the fight. If their non-healing options are terrible, then they're going to be terrible if they cast a heal in combat or cast a temp HP spell beforehand.

[tatsuyashiba]

I've heard it time-and-time again that healing isn't a good use of your action in combat, and that "yoyo-healing" is the only real effective way to spend spell slots healing in combat.

If I were to get a player who'd want a more combat-active type healer, where the BEST course of action would be to heal, and the strategic option would be not to heal (instead of visa versa), do you think it can be done without breaking the game?

My friend is playing a high level Wizard (Diviner)/Paladin, laying out plenty of smites. Turns out he’s an amazing healer too without spending combat actions. The main healing abilities he uses:

Aid spell (2nd level, Paladin/Cleric):

Choose up to three creatures within range. Each target's hit point maximum and current Hit Points increase by 5 for the Duration.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, a target's Hit Points increase by an additional 5 for each slot level above 2nd.

Lasts 8 hours. Cast as a 4th or 5th level spell for 20-25 extra HP each.

Inspiring leader feat:

You can spend 10 minutes inspiring your companions, shoring up their will to fight. When you do so, choose up to six friendly creatures (which can include yourself) within 30 feet of you can can see or hear you and can understand you. Each creature gains temporary hit point equal to your level + your Charisma modifier. A creature can't gain temporary hit points in this way again until they finish a short or long rest.

At 15th level (we are in high tier campaign now), this is 17 extra hp per party member refilled on short rest. Combined with the previous ability, we walk into combat with nearly 50 extra HP each.

[KillingTime]

At 15th level (we are in high tier campaign now), this is 17 extra hp per party member refilled on short rest. Combined with the previous ability, we walk into combat with nearly 50 extra HP each.

You can't combine sources of Temp HP.

So one of the keys to making healing not-suck is to give some viable options other than healing. I haven't found them all yet, as I've been playing D&D5e mostly by ear and trying out various stuff to see what works. Shield of Faith works best if you have a single frontline attacker, or at least just one somewhat low-AC character to buff up. It doesn't work if you are trying to keep several low-AC characters alive, though. Bless works well when you have two or three really high offense characters on the team, and probably less so if you are trying to buff yourself. "Hit the enemy with my Paladin" certainly is the most effective playstyle here. Perhaps it's just me, but I do like the resource management sort of style where I have to pick and choose which spells are the most useful for the job with each combat.

No-one says that clerics don't have loads of other options in combat.
The problem is that the one option they're famous for (for good or ill), is sub-optimal.
Until you reach high tier play, the only in-combat healing you're ever likely to see is yo-yo healing word.

[stoutstien]

You can't combine sources of Temp HP.



No-one says that clerics don't have loads of other options in combat.
The problem is that the one option they're famous for (for good or ill), is sub-optimal.
Until you reach high tier play, the only in-combat healing you're ever likely to see is yo-yo healing word.

Aid and heroes' feast both stack with each other and THP. they are worded as increasing max and current HP.

Aid + inspiring leader is a great passive healing combo

[LudicSavant]

You can't combine sources of Temp HP.

Aid isn't temporary HP.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Healing in combat does suck, but nowhere near as bad as Strahd.

Relevant user profile picture.

[jaappleton]

Relevant user profile picture.

He's not even a Blackula!

[GlenSmash!]

He's not even a Blackula!

Man, I specialize in hunting black vampires, I don't know what the P.C. name for that is!

[Contrast]

[EDIT] As an aside, I'm not sure if temporary hit points really resolve any situations I've been in. Giving temp HP rather than healing is really just putting the action in a different position in the turn order. Typically, you'd end up doing that immediately before combat, or on the first round, with the characters you expect to deal damage. The negative aspect is that it might be a wasted spell slot, although it's usually very easy to determine who will be attacked in most fights. Really, I've found that temp HP is just a "spend one spell before the fighting really begins" sort of situation so it doesn't affect the actions or options the healer has during the fight. If their non-healing options are terrible, then they're going to be terrible if they cast a heal in combat or cast a temp HP spell beforehand.

This is why I suggested glamour bard to OP.

Bonus action to give out THP to Cha number of people Cha times per short rest. And they get to make a move without generating opportunity attacks. And because its an action, not a spell your action is still free for a levelled spell if need be. Plus as a bard you get Song of Rest.

I'm playing a glamour bard at the moment and had originally picked up Inspiring Leader but actually can be ask my DM if I could swap it out because I was finding often loads of THP were going to waste because I'd already topped everyone up. So if you're focusing heals then Healer would be a better shout I think.

The main problem with THP is that they don't wake the unconscious of course meaning you have to fall back on Healing Word. Its very galling when you're used to 'healing' 4 people for 8HP as a bonus action and then casting a spell to suddenly have to spend a spell slot to heal one person for 1d4+4 and only be able to cast a cantrip

[Ganders]

(all objects that require actions, except magic items, require the Use an Object action)

Crawford has also confirmed that it works.

I would argue that there's a reason the second bullet in the Healer feat is written differently than the first. And 'spend one use of' is not the same as a normal use of the kit. Something you can do only once per rest is not a normal use-an-object action. The feat specifically says you can use an action to (do unique thing). That you need supplies to (do that thing) is beside the point.

Regarding the Crawford quote, I would argue that a feat is also "its own thing", not a generic object to be used. Also that Crawford quote only says that magic items are an exception, it doesn't say magic items are the only exception.

In a similar vein, I would argue that a rogue can't use the Grappler feat to pin as a bonus action, or use the Martial Adept feat to do a maneuver as a bonus action, even when using a non-magical sword for the maneuver.

Similarly, the Chromatic Orb spell requires a very specific non-magical item (a diamond) to work, but it still counts as a 'cast a spell' action, not a 'use an object' action. I figure the Healer feat action still counts as a 'use a special ability' action rather than 'use an object', even though it uses up part of your healer's kit.

[Chalkarts]

It may be unoptimized, but the Life Cleric in my Party of 7 is firmly in the healbot role and seems to be fine with it.

I'm working on a Warforged Life Cleric that's literally a heal bot.

[sandman102]

In my most recent campaign I was a dedicated healing bard. Healer feat, Aura of Vitality, even got the DM to rule that the radiant soul ability could be added to healing rather than damage.

In my own estimation, I felt I made a really good healer.

However, my strategy of hanging in the back that worked well enough, failed utterly when the DM presented a large map, two young dragons (40/80 speed), and few places to hide.

My build almost now-worked in the inverse, where I had done a good job of keeping my party up until then and them not having to worry about me, that when we faced creatures that went. after. the. healer, my party pretty much abandoned me as that what we've always done as a group...

I died first, and the rest soon followed.


Now then, I think the problem is that healing is both effective, 1 point in any capacity brings a character up to consciousness, and in-effective; few, if any, spells make a substantial difference heal-wise.

I think healing does it's best when it's done as a bonus action (Healing Word, Aura of Vitality, Mass Healing Word, Thief with the Healer Feat), because it's then not taking a significant amount of resources in terms of spell level/actions to get the basic need out of healing ~ 1 point of healing.

[Xetheral]

I would argue that there's a reason the second bullet in the Healer feat is written differently than the first. And 'spend one use of' is not the same as a normal use of the kit. Something you can do only once per rest is not a normal use-an-object action. The feat specifically says you can use an action to (do unique thing). That you need supplies to (do that thing) is beside the point.

Regarding the Crawford quote, I would argue that a feat is also "its own thing", not a generic object to be used. Also that Crawford quote only says that magic items are an exception, it doesn't say magic items are the only exception.

In a similar vein, I would argue that a rogue can't use the Grappler feat to pin as a bonus action, or use the Martial Adept feat to do a maneuver as a bonus action, even when using a non-magical sword for the maneuver.

Similarly, the Chromatic Orb spell requires a very specific non-magical item (a diamond) to work, but it still counts as a 'cast a spell' action, not a 'use an object' action. I figure the Healer feat action still counts as a 'use a special ability' action rather than 'use an object', even though it uses up part of your healer's kit.

So, you agree with me that using a healer's kit requires the 'Use an Object' action, and therefore a Thief can use a healer's kit as a bonus action? But you're also arguing that using the Healer feat doesn't require using the healer's kit (only expending a use of the kit) and therefore must be some action other than 'Use an Object'?

Frankly, arguing that it's possible to expend a use of a healer's kit without using the kit seems somewhat bizarre to me. And Crawford was very explicit that a Thief can use a healer's kit as a bonus action (in the context of a question about the Healer feat, no less).

Additionally, your comparisons seem inapt. The Grappler feat doesn't involve an object at all, so there is no reason to think it would require the Use an Object action. The Martial Adept feat cross references the Battlemaster rules for Manuevers, most of which don't require any action at all (a few require a reaction). And unlike a healer's kit, the diamond for Chromatic Orb doesn't have a text entry specifying that its use requires an action, so I see no reason to think it would require the Use an Object action.

Finally, from a balance perspective, there are very few objects in the game that require the Use an Object action in the first place, and many of them are single-use and quite expensive. I don't see any need to nerf Fast Hands (and thus the Thief subclass) by arguing that the Healer feat does not involve using a healing kit.

[opaopajr]

Easiest fix against "Meatball Surgery" ("whack-a-mole") is: Death Saves AND Negative HP are on until Resting. Short/Long Rests erases Negative HP. Any Stabilized Unconscious creature recovers as normal (pops back up to 1 HP in 1d4 hours, ignores Neg HP).

Doesn't dip into Exhaustion -- which does a fantastic job emulating Wounds suck-spiral from other RPGs -- and is pretty easy bookeepping.

(By the time players have so much Neg HP, no one is going to bother healing them. Instead healing would be front-loaded, done before they go down. And instead of counting Neg HP, you have Death Saves and Stabilize to wave away all that counting. Two Great Tastes That Go Great Together! )

[KillingTime]

I definitely think there's milage in the use of cure wounds to spend hit dice... Either the cleric's or the recipient.
The hit dice mechanic is really underused imo, and as a finite resource it would put the breaks on healing swinging too far back.

Aid isn't temporary HP.

My bad... 🙄

[Nhorianscum]

Easiest fix against "Meatball Surgery" ("whack-a-mole") is: Death Saves AND Negative HP are on until Resting. Short/Long Rests erases Negative HP. Any Stabilized Unconscious creature recovers as normal (pops back up to 1 HP in 1d4 hours, ignores Neg HP).

Doesn't dip into Exhaustion -- which does a fantastic job emulating Wounds suck-spiral from other RPGs -- and is pretty easy bookeepping.

(By the time players have so much Neg HP, no one is going to bother healing them. Instead healing would be front-loaded, done before they go down. And instead of counting Neg HP, you have Death Saves and Stabilize to wave away all that counting. Two Great Tastes That Go Great Together! )

One of my players brought this "fix" up in CoS.

My reply verbatim was "You've gone through 3 PC's and the party is at level 4."

[jaappleton]

One of my players brought this "fix" up in CoS.

My reply verbatim was "You've gone through 3 PC's and the party is at level 4."

As someone playing CoS, this hit me harder than what’s in Old Bonegrinder

[Tanarii]

I've found the most common problem with healing in combat is bad math. People who fail to understand that healing is 100%, and damage has a hit chance or saving throw. For example:

Healing is never going to be as effective as damage which makes sense, as others have said it would make combat drag out for far too long. To compare two spells Cure Wounds heals for 1d8 + mod (7.5 with a +3 mod) while Inflict Wounds deals 3d10 damage (16.5). That is over twice as much damage, though you can be resistant to the damage or the spell attack can miss.

[Nhorianscum]

As someone playing CoS, this hit me harder than what’s in Old Bonegrinder

Oh wait till you meet BabaOrbitalRailgun with a DM who isn't pulling punches.

"Ok everyone reroll"

"But we won that last fight, and were walking in an empty field, with no initiative or anything"

"Yup, TPK"

[jaappleton]

Oh wait till you meet BabaOrbitalRailgun with a DM who isn't pulling punches.

"Ok everyone reroll"

"But we won that last fight, and were walking in an empty field, with no initiative or anything"

"Yup, TPK"

I did.

.....three of us came with new characters the next session.

We were level four when we stumbled across her.

[Nhorianscum]

I did.

.....three of us came with new characters the next session.

We were level four when we stumbled across her.

Never too early to start learning how to flip houses in Ravenloft!

[opaopajr]

One of my players brought this "fix" up in CoS.

My reply verbatim was "You've gone through 3 PC's and the party is at level 4."

Well Ravenloft is supposed to be a Deep Ethereal nightmare plane, so that is par for the course. Within reason, of course.

But this topic is about aesthetics. Some don't want "meatball surgery," some don't want "wound suck-spirals." Is the answer: play Ravenloft with a ruthless GM? No.

That answer is a non-answer to tailoring the rules to fit one's desired table aesthetics. That answer is telling someone which campaign they should play and how to run their table. Two very different purposes.

It's like saying, "how can I make these clothes work for my body shape?" and replying "a little black dress goes with every occasion." It's well intentioned, but not really helpful.

[Ironheart]

I think my favorite way of handling this is a homebrew of Lingering Injuries made by Mark Sherlock Hulmes. Essentially, instead of automatically gaining injuries when you hit 0, you would make a Con saving throw to determine if you got an injury (DC 10 or half damage, whichever is higher). Otherwise, injuries can be cured magically with lower level spells than regenerate- but they come with costly components.

At higher levels of play, this makes monsters with larger damage single attacks more dangerous than they were before. If they manage to take the player to 0, then it doesn't matter how hearty they are- they will likely gain an injury. Adding injuries that can inhibit spellcasters (locking out verbal components after they break their jaw as an example) can add more weight to deciding to heal someone after they hit 0 and before.

From 'by the books' perspective, DM's can simply use monsters that have advantage when players are below a certain threshold of their max hitpoints, typically half. Sahuagin have the Blood Frenzy trait, and perhaps more of those types of monsters can encourage players to be more careful when engaging monsters when they're wounded.

These are nontypical fixes, tho.

[Bjarkmundur]

@Chalkats
I appreciate that pun!

@opaopajr
I actually use a rule similar to this. Death Saves last until long rest. It's worked wonders so far, although a bit dangerous at times. I agree that exhaustion sucks. I don't like that mechanic at all.

@Tanarii
You are actually right! I hadn't accounted for hit chance :O

@Ironheart
I use a similar lingering injury mechanic, looking forward to checking out that link! Might be more stuff for me to steal ^^
Although Blood Frenzy does encourage top-off heals, I don't think its a very healthy mechanic to make into a general rule. Making it a common mechanic, however, might be very interesting. Players will likely pick up on this by the third session a player takes damage and you describe how one of the bad-guys' "Eyes turns red and his head turns to you". I've done similar things, using the same mechanic over multiple sessions, and watching the players pick up on it and learn to tactically play around it is just as much fun for me as it is for them. Thanks for your input, it was appreciated! :D

[Angelmaker]

If you feel your players don't value healing as much as you think they should: track their total negative hitpoints received during a day: if it reaches half their their negative hit point maximum, they die, just like if they were coup de graced. This will certainly make clear to them that they do not want to get in the negatives any given time.

Then again, I also feel like healing should be valued by players on a non-mechanical level. Whenever we have a healer around, my characters usually invite him/her to stay at inns for free at my character's cost, or similar, despite the machanical implementation of healing in the game.