Durkon*'s mistake

[Gluteus_Maximus]

He learned accelerate vampirism instead of protection from daylight.

Why is this a mistake, you may ask? Well, the thralls he made never did more than mildly inconvenience the party. The vampires he had would have been more than enough without the thralls.

If he researched the protection from daylight spell and didn't think about crushing Roy, Durkon*, Gontor* and others would have a much better position than they did in this situation. Plus, Gontor* would have been able to mist out the hole in the roof or just hang out in the room, or even go fetch such an oak table himself.

In the end Ponchula and Durkon* did nothing to the party other than have Durkon lose a level. Durkon*'s spells would be much better used casting through the barrier, and probably could have prevented Belkar's scroll killing. They wouldn't have a cleric high enough level to cast wall of stone to get past the giant worm, and the party would go down pretty dang quickly against three primary casters 9th 13th and 15th level each as well as the domination storm they used on the low will party members. Ponchula could lurk in the darkness, appear to dominate, and then mist again. They really blew it on using that then when they could have used it at a point where there isn't easy access for Belkar to stake Durkon*.

[Schroeswald]

What would you rather have? Hundreds of minions that might kill your enemies (and without them his plans would definitely be different), or protection from daylight which stops one method of killing you if your planned protections are gone. I know what I'd pick.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

What would you rather have? Hundreds of minions that might kill your enemies (and without them his plans would definitely be different), or protection from daylight which stops one method of killing you if your planned protections are gone. I know what I'd pick.

The minions made him think he had a chance at beating Roy without clerics in the dining hall, and what's this? He has two, and one being very high level. Without the minions, Durkon's family wouldn't be enough against Durkon*'s casting, not to mention with the same number of vampires against them but behind a permanent barrier (that, I might add, Durkon can't drop to get staked) would make domination be much more effective in an even more pivotal battle.

[Quebbster]

There were at least five casters in the dining hall, as well as plenty of spawn. Plus, Hilgya joining the Order was a surprise, as far as he knew they had no divine magic.

[Jasdoif]

The minions made him think he had a chance at beating Roy without clerics in the dining hall

It's not their fault HPoH ignored the warning once he heard what he wanted to hear.

That's HPoH's mistake: Arrogantly assuming victory was assured, and thus focusing his personal attention on killing Roy instead of on the council. If he hadn't split his efforts, he could've capitalized on the edges his minions could gave him.

[BaronOfHell]

The way I understood events that transpired, without the accelerated spawn magic, the vampire version of Durkon would not have had any minions at all. Gontor (not sure about spelling), Ponchula and the final one only came to existence at the Godsmoot because of this particular spell, I believe.

Edit: Nevermind, I just realized that he probably was able to cast both spells from his staff, and what spell he learned was first truly revealed after he left the Godsmoot without the staff. I'll let this post stay here in case other shared my confusion.

[Schroeswald]

The minions made him think he had a chance at beating Roy without clerics in the dining hall, and what's this? He has two, and one being very high level. Without the minions, Durkon's family wouldn't be enough against Durkon*'s casting, not to mention with the same number of vampires against them but behind a permanent barrier (that, I might add, Durkon can't drop to get staked) would make domination be much more effective in an even more pivotal battle.

Counterpoint, Sandy just replaces Curly (and you know what, lets say she replaces the other two casters), and the Exarch does as much damage (maybe even a bit more) as every other vampire they lost in this battle. What it doesn't do is stop Durkon and Belkar from doing what they do, so we're in the exact same situation but maybe Sandy or the Exarch don't run away and instead Belkar or Hilgya manage to kill them. And then, well the Exarch still loses, Durkon's family contains two bards over twelfth level, with Squeaky probably at level with Elan, Sigdi is at least sixth level, probably higher, Minrah will be there in a few minutes and she has a guard class level and is at least a 5th level cleric (with Tinna there even later and she's probably about the same level), Hoskin, Shirra, and Logann's mom are probably level with Sigdi, we have a second level caster, and then 15 more fighters (and by fighter I mean people who don't cast spells, I presume some of them are rogues and rangers) of indeterminate level. This kills the Exarch, but maybe a few good guys go down with him.
EDIT:

The way I understood events that transpired, without the accelerated spawn magic, the vampire version of Durkon would not have had any minions at all. Gontor (not sure about spelling), Ponchula and the final one only came to existence at the Godsmoot because of this particular spell, I believe.

That stuff was there due to the staff (or, it could be, maybe he used his own spell but it doesn't really matter which), not studying the spell doesn't change this.
EDIT AGAIN:Ninja'd by BaronOfHell himself, good job.

[Fyraltari]

Nope, that was tactically sound, only two vampires died of sunburn.

think about crushing Roy

That's the the mistake, if he had had his whole gang in the Council Chamber from the get-go he would have won easily, Roy wouldn't even have known what to do to stop him besides charge and get killed.

It's not their fault HPoH ignored the warning once he heard what he wanted to hear.

That too ; also a mistake.

[Peelee]

Hindsight is 20/20. You could say all sorts of things; his mistake was letting Roy get ahold of the staff, his mistake was following Hel, but at the end of the day he'd had a good plan; even if it somehow failed and he lived, he could raise a vampire army (he was already well on his way to that already). He could have had plenty of time to research Protection from Daylight later, if he so wished.

[Fyraltari]

Hindsight is 20/20. You could say all sorts of things; his mistake was letting Roy get ahold of the staff, his mistake was following Hel, but at the end of the day he'd had a good plan; even if it somehow failed and he lived, he could raise a vampire army (he was already well on his way to that already). He could have had plenty of time to research Protection from Daylight later, if he so wished.

Hindsight or no, "I'm going to divide my forces and draw the guy who's coming to try to stop me to me because I want the pleasure of killing him personally rather than have him die as a natural result of me achieving my primary goal" was always clear flaw in his plan. It didn't look as bad when we didn't know how he planned on rigging the council's vote and therefore did not know if and how much Roy could interfere but knowledge of the Orange Barrier makes it clear that Durkon* took an unnecessary risk and paid for it.

[Schroeswald]

Hindsight or no, "I'm going to divide my forces and draw the guy who's coming to try to stop me to me because I want the pleasure of killing him personally rather than have him die as a natural result of me achieving my primary goal" was always clear flaw in his plan. It didn't look as bad when we didn't know how he planned on rigging the council's vote and therefore did not know if and how much Roy could interfere but knowledge of the Orange Barrier makes it clear that Durkon* took an unnecessary risk and paid for it.

So, in summary, Greg didn't learn "Don't Split the Party"?

[Fyraltari]

So, in summary, Greg didn't learn "Don't Split the Party"?

No actually, not committing his entire force to fighting Roy and keeping a reserve focused on the target was the clever part. It's attacking Roy at all that was dumb.

[brian 333]

Durkula's plan worked.

He made no mistakes. He beat Roy and company and had a clear path to the Council Hall.

If he had not diverted Roy he may not have been able to dominate the elders because Roy would have been there warning them away.

It was a good plan.

Durkon's plan worked better. Twice.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, Durkon* won before the author made him lose. ;)

[Fyraltari]

If he had not diverted Roy he may not have been able to dominate the elders because Roy would have been there warning them away.

What stopped Roy from warning them that wouldn't if they had not fought? He had several hours to do so.

The Order could not have passed the Orange Barrier, meaning that there would have been no reason for Durkon* to make a deal with Durkon and so no opening for Durkon to trick him.

[Schroeswald]

What stopped Roy from warning them that wouldn't if they had not fought? He had several hours to do so.

The Order could not have passed the Orange Barrier, meaning that there would have been no reason for Durkon* to make a deal with Durkon and so no opening for Durkon to trick him.

Or, Durkon just found a way to show it him in the intervening time, because why not?

[Particle_Man]

Failing to name his followers was a mistake. Elan proved that in this world if you don’t have a name you reduce your chance of survival in combat, and Durkon (and so presumably Durkon*) knew this.

[HorizonWalker]

Durkula's plan worked.

He made no mistakes. He beat Roy and company and had a clear path to the Council Hall.

If he had not diverted Roy he may not have been able to dominate the elders because Roy would have been there warning them away.

It was a good plan.

Durkon's plan worked better. Twice.

No, Roy wouldn't be there, because Roy isn't a Dwarf and cannot get inside the council chamber.

[Schroeswald]

Failing to name his followers was a mistake. Elan proved that in this world if you don’t have a name you reduce your chance of survival in combat, and Durkon (and so presumably Durkon*) knew this.

I don’t know, I’d say the most named people died first, Durkon* had Greg, Ponchula had a popular forum name, the Exarch (though he was probably more named than her) had a full and used title, Sandy had a forum nickname for awhile and Curly is still alive despite us just starting to give her one.

[Peelee]

No, Roy wouldn't be there, because Roy isn't a Dwarf and cannot get inside the council chamber.

The elders had to enter the chamber from somewhere, like the bridge, and Roy could get there.

[Squire Doodad]

I don’t know, I’d say the most named people died first, Durkon* had Greg, Ponchula had a popular forum name, the Exarch (though he was probably more named than her) had a full and used title, Sandy had a forum nickname for awhile and Curly is still alive despite us just starting to give her one.

The Exarch lasted longer than Ponchula because his name was the name of his entity instead of a misbegotten forum name. Within a small margin of error to allow for epic defeat, that puts him next to last just in front of Curly who has no name at all until the last like 5 strips.

[The Pilgrim]

The elders had to enter the chamber from somewhere, like the bridge, and Roy could get there.

Which raises the question of why didn't Roy get there right away, either instead of confronting Greg at the Dinner Hall or after defeating him and resurrecting Durkon. But that would be a question for another thread. The thing is, people do not always make the best choices, but a good leader has always to plan assuming the enemy will make the best choices (and avoid interrupting him when he doesn't). Greg planning on Roy following his best choices can't be blamed on him as a mistake.

Greg undestood that the Order had a very easy way to foil Hel's scheme by just walking to the entrance of the Great Cave with the Bridge and exposing the vampires to the incoming Elders before they came into the Orange Chamber. So, Greg took measures to prevent that from happening, by luring The Order to combat him far from the Council meeting room. Even though he failed, the Order still chose to rest until after dawn to recover from the combat, instead of rushing right away to the meeting, thus allowing the Exarch to pull the plan of dominating the Elders as they arrived.

[mjasghar]

When your mission -which will likely cause the world to end- is going to take place underground I think protection from sunlight is less a priority than accelerating vampirism which would otherwise take days to create thralls
That’s one of the issues raised tangentially in this book - that if the underground world is full of sentient beings it should be either overrun with vampires or have heavy defences against them. That and the broken infinite use of domination combined with vampires having class levels

[Peelee]

That’s one of the issues raised tangentially in this book - that if the underground world is full of sentient beings it should be either overrun with vampires or have heavy defences against them.

Vampires are very rare, though, so I don't think either one is necessarily true.

[Rrmcklin]

Hindsight is 20/20. You could say all sorts of things; his mistake was letting Roy get ahold of the staff, his mistake was following Hel, but at the end of the day he'd had a good plan; even if it somehow failed and he lived, he could raise a vampire army (he was already well on his way to that already). He could have had plenty of time to research Protection from Daylight later, if he so wished.

Seconding this. Even though Durkon* did make some suboptimal decisions, that's not ultimately what lead to his down fall. I keep failing to see the point in "this is what the villains did wrong" threads that keep popping up for some reason.

[Squire Doodad]

Seconding this. Even though Durkon* did make some suboptimal decisions, that's not ultimately what lead to his down fall. I keep failing to see the point in "this is what the villains did wrong" threads that keep popping up for some reason.

Maybe they are just fun to talk about? I dunno XD

Dissecting the reasons why they messed up is easily derailed though.

[Xyril]

The minions made him think he had a chance at beating Roy without clerics in the dining hall, and what's this? He has two, and one being very high level.

That's like saying that without the giant, the Philistines wouldn't have been overconfident enough to lose to a boy with a sling, so they really should have just brought an extra boy instead.

Many factors had to come together for Durkon* to lose, none of which were really within Durkon or Durkon*'s ability to predict from prior knowledge. Roy should have died at the Godsmoot, if not for coming to terms with Durkon being gone at a dramatically perfect moment and activating his weapon of legacy. The Order would have lost to Durkon*'s ambush if not for Hilgya's timely arrival and Belkar's rage being triggered by his "broken" magical item and Durkon initiating his ultimate gambit at the perfect moment. Heck, that first ambush by the spawn only would have severely depleted the Order's supply of spells and healing (at a minimum) as they were forced to fight at a tactical disadvantage once V dismissed the force cage--it was only Hilgya's surprise arrival that prevented any sort of real fight.

Without his spawn, Durkon* would have been forced to enact a more cautious plan, but he still would have been unprepared for all of these unexpected bullets. The best argument in favor of your position is that he would have been forced to use stealth and cunning instead of a direct confrontation, thus avoiding a chance for all of those factors to come together, resulting in his death. However, there weren't really many ways to do this--and the plausible plans that existed would all have worked better with a lot of cannon fodder. Remember, outrunning the Order to the Council of Clans wouldn't have avoided a fight, since the meeting wasn't going to happen any faster no matter what Durkon* did.

Yes, if Durkon* had arrived early with Gontor*, instead of preparing for a failed ambush, he could have put better protections in place. However, he would have had far fewer allies to prevent the Order from circumventing those barriers, while the Order itself would have been short one dwarven cleric (but arguably up another, since Hilgya would have been more involved if she was still waiting to kill Durkon.) I don't remember if Durkon had to call his family himself, or if they'd heard about his arrival through other means, so it's plausible that they would have come out to help regardless.

With the benefit of hindsight, we know that Durkon's unique skillset and history was necessary for the win, but that wasn't something reasonably predictable when weighing tactical options. Remember, we're assuming that Durkon* isn't stupid--perhaps overconfident, yes, and able to make mistaken assumptions or analysis, but not stupid. With all of his spawn, he weighed taking them all to the Council of Clans immediately and making a stand against the Order as a united front against splitting up and setting up an ambush at a tactically favorable location and decided that that had the best chances of success. To the best of his knowledge, doing the single last thing withoutthe dozens of spawn would be considered an inferior choice to both of those options.

[Squire Doodad]

Honestly, Durkula made no mistakes. Well, he made a few (like insulting Roy over whether his brother's death was his fault), but outside of some outliers everything he did went flawlessly.

Even with spacing out for a moment, he could have just walked a bit to the side of the Antilife shell and eliminated Belkar readily with the help of a still dominated Hilgya that would have no qualms about killing Belkar. Problem solved.

What happened was that Durkula fell victim to what appears to have only happened a few times in the history of this world (if ever), and so because he was doing great up to that point, he would have been able to wipe the floor with the Order, possibly vamp them, and then easily get the vote to change unless Dvalin stepped in.

Durkula won.
But Durkon won harder.

[BasiliskSoldier]

Durkula was in a position where he could take an ability that neutralizes a Vampire's biggest weakness or an ability that massively enhances a Vampire's greatest strategic strength, at a point where his environment was already going to minimize any danger from the sun. He absolutely made the right call.

He didn't use his Spawn as effectively as he could have, but he would have been worse off without them. Engaging Roy personally was a mistake in hindsight, if he'd given Ponchula command of the spawn, and tasked her to clear the Order, she has a decent chance of taking them out, and even if she fails, the Order doesn't get Durkon back. But Durkula had no reason to think he couldn't take Roy and the Order.

Hel, he did! He defeated the Order, without significant casualties and in a way where he can raise all of them as Vampires. If Durkon didn't pull his memory gambit, a trick Durkula had no way of seeing coming, the Vampires win. Handily.

[The Pilgrim]

Durkula had to confront the Order in person. The Order would not have stopped to care for a second-stringer.