The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by BasiliskSoldier View Post
    Hel, he did! He defeated the Order, without significant casualties and in a way where he can raise all of them as Vampires. If Durkon didn't pull his memory gambit, a trick Durkula had no way of seeing coming, the Vampires win. Handily.
    Even with Durkon pulling his memory gambit, if not for Belkar's pendant suddenly gaining an auto-heal function out of nowhere it would've still been the vampire's victory since the negative energy would soon take over again.

    Or the remaining vampires just finishing off the downed party right away instead of just taking small sips.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-08-22 at 07:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Even with Durkon pulling his memory gambit, if not for Belkar's pendant suddenly gaining an auto-heal function out of nowhere it would've still been the vampire's victory since the negative energy would soon take over again.

    Or the remaining vampires just finishing off the downed party right away instead of just taking small sips.
    I know I'm just putting my foot in it by now, but there's no evidence the clasp healed Belkar Ė it just woke him up. He doesn't seem any less wounded before and after it activates, and doesn't take any damage before killing Durkula.

    What you're objecting to is that the pain from the clasp woke Belkar from unconsciousness, but that's definitely not unprecedented. RAW often states that an unconscious creature wakes up if it takes damage, which we can infer is due to the pain the creature experiences. There are no stated limits for how "much" pain Protection from Evil causes if cast on an Evil creature, so it's entirely up to interpretation.

    Sure, maybe you don't agree with this interpretation. If you were playing a D&D game and the DM made this call, you could dispute it. You might not win any popularity points at the table, but you'd be within your rights to start a rules argument. However, this comic is not a D&D game. If you don't like the author's interpretations, there's nothing stopping you from writing your own D&D based comic and advertising how stringently it obeys 3.5 RAW.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Even with Durkon pulling his memory gambit, if not for Belkar's pendant suddenly gaining an auto-heal function out of nowhere it would've still been the vampire's victory since the negative energy would soon take over again.

    Or the remaining vampires just finishing off the downed party right away instead of just taking small sips.
    So you made a new argument there to address, but before that, remember thread 1174, we answered the first argument there, however Iíd say that Durkon still could have killed himself (grab a stake and stab yourself), snapped Hilgya out of domination after giving up Kudzu, just ordered Hilgya to kill him or any number of things to win in that scenario.

    Next, yes, Ponchula could have gone and bloodsucked Elan and Haley, it wouldnít have done all that much because Hilgya was still standing there, so was Belkar while V and Roy would be ready soon, but she could of, but a plausible explanation is saving room for everyone else to eat, you split up the blood, everyone gets a bit and you get to figure out the spell slots needed for a quickened vampirization (If they had that many slots left for it, something Iím not certain of), is it a bit of a plot contrivance, I guess, but does it ruin everything, not in any way.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Even with Durkon pulling his memory gambit, if not for Belkar's pendant suddenly gaining an auto-heal function out of nowhere it would've still been the vampire's victory since the negative energy would soon take over again.

    Or the remaining vampires just finishing off the downed party right away instead of just taking small sips.
    Durkon had an indeterminate amount of time to act and high level clerical abilities. Belkar's revival eliminated the other two vampires and provided an easy way for Durkon to off himself, but I imagine there were other ways he could have accomplished that. Durkon getting a few rounds of control and a sneak attack on Curly and Ponchula probably still leads to a Vampire defeat even without Belkar.

    But yeah, Durkula came within milimeters of complete victory. He knocks out his most dangerous opposition, raises five high level vampires (which more than make up for the lost vampire spawn) and Good Game. Nothing the dwarves can throw at him will be able to break his defenses at the council meeting.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Even with Durkon pulling his memory gambit, if not for Belkar's pendant suddenly gaining an auto-heal function out of nowhere it would've still been the vampire's victory since the negative energy would soon take over again.

    Or the remaining vampires just finishing off the downed party right away instead of just taking small sips.
    Let's assume that Belkar doesn't awakes.

    Durkon just tells dominated Hilgya to take the child and then kill him. That would have been faster than having Belkar do it because Durkon doesn't needs to lose time dismissing the AntiLife Shell. And in fact he doesn't even needs Hilgya to be dominated. And, for good measure, he cast a mass cure wounds on the whole room as his last action before Hilgya offs him.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-08-23 at 04:00 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel Bob View Post
    I know I'm just putting my foot in it by now, but there's no evidence the clasp healed Belkar Ė it just woke him up. He doesn't seem any less wounded before and after it activates, and doesn't take any damage before killing Durkula.

    What you're objecting to is that the pain from the clasp woke Belkar from unconsciousness, but that's definitely not unprecedented. RAW often states that an unconscious creature wakes up if it takes damage, which we can infer is due to the pain the creature experiences. There are no stated limits for how "much" pain Protection from Evil causes if cast on an Evil creature, so it's entirely up to interpretation.
    Only sleeping creatures are woken up by damage and being asleep isn't the same thing as being unconscious by RAW. If anything by RAW you use pain to make people unconsciosus in D&D, unless I missed the memo that attacking for non-lethal means delivering a sensual relaxing massage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    So you made a new argument there to address, but before that, remember thread 1174, we answered the first argument there
    Something about how rage can be used while unconscious, not a valid answer since rage can't be used while unconscious.

    Really every adventurer would be packing a clasp like that if they allow to shrug off being unconscious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Next, yes, Ponchula could have gone and bloodsucked Elan and Haley, it wouldnít have done all that much because Hilgya was still standing there, so was Belkar while V and Roy would be ready soon, but she could of, but a plausible explanation is saving room for everyone else to eat, you split up the blood, everyone gets a bit and you get to figure out the spell slots needed for a quickened vampirization (If they had that many slots left for it, something Iím not certain of), is it a bit of a plot contrivance, I guess, but does it ruin everything, not in any way.
    Ah, evenly spliting a nice meal among the coterie before destroying the world in a matter of hours, truly the way of evil vampires.

    Plus you don't need to keep them alive for fast vampirification, if anything you need to drain them dead first.

    Quote Originally Posted by BasiliskSoldier View Post
    Durkon had an indeterminate amount of time to act and high level clerical abilities. Belkar's revival eliminated the other two vampires and provided an easy way for Durkon to off himself, but I imagine there were other ways he could have accomplished that. Durkon getting a few rounds of control and a sneak attack on Curly and Ponchula probably still leads to a Vampire defeat even without Belkar.
    Now that's a fair argument. Still it seemed like he was packing mostly anti-living and undead support spells so not much left to off himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by BasiliskSoldier View Post
    But yeah, Durkula came within milimeters of complete victory. He knocks out his most dangerous opposition, raises five high level vampires (which more than make up for the lost vampire spawn) and Good Game. Nothing the dwarves can throw at him will be able to break his defenses at the council meeting.
    Even with his defeat, Durkula spreading the secrets of fast vampirification and the other hax spells Mallack researched is still a game changer.

    Even if Hel somehow didn't learn them now in all her divine might, she does knows they're possible, and she's got all the time in the world(s) to figure out how to make more vampires learn them.

    Let Loki and Thor think they've won even if the voting goes their way. The Vampire revolution is just getting started!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Even with his defeat, Durkula spreading the secrets of fast vampirification and the other hax spells Mallack researched is still a game changer.

    Even if Hel somehow didn't learn them now in all her divine might, she does knows they're possible, and she's got all the time in the world(s) to figure out how to make more vampires learn them.

    Let Loki and Thor think they've won even if the voting goes their way. The Vampire revolution is just getting started!
    Nergal already knew those spells, given that it was him who granted them to Malack each day. No game change. No vampiric revolution started.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-08-23 at 04:44 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Only sleeping creatures are woken up by damage and being asleep isn't the same thing as being unconscious by RAW. If anything by RAW you use pain to make people unconsciosus in D&D, unless I missed the memo that attacking for non-lethal means delivering a sensual relaxing massage.
    You missed a different memo.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    Vampire Durk's biggest mistake was talking too much. If he didn't (or have his subordinates) talk so damn much their plans would have been too obscure for the team to work out.

    "Dude! Stop telling me your evil plans! If I know what they are I can stop you!"

    Xykon didn't explain the gates to the order at all and they were so confused by his plans they all but assured his victory in Azure city. Now that they know his plans in detail, they beat him to the gate and destroyed it seconds after he saw it for the first time. The only reason they didn't beat him to the last gate is because minor villains keep distracting them with side plots.

    If you're going to be evil, don't explain your plans to those opposed to you. Just execute them.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyethatBinds View Post
    Vampire Durk's biggest mistake was talking too much. If he didn't (or have his subordinates) talk so damn much their plans would have been too obscure for the team to work out.

    "Dude! Stop telling me your evil plans! If I know what they are I can stop you!"

    Xykon didn't explain the gates to the order at all and they were so confused by his plans they all but assured his victory in Azure city. Now that they know his plans in detail, they beat him to the gate and destroyed it seconds after he saw it for the first time. The only reason they didn't beat him to the last gate is because minor villains keep distracting them with side plots.

    If you're going to be evil, don't explain your plans to those opposed to you. Just execute them.
    Everything you said about Xykon was wrong, they knew his plans vaguely since they learned he was still alive, the only additional knowledge related to Team Evil that they have is Redcloakís plan.

    Azure city fell due to force of numbers on Team Evil, and Miko ruining everything, not any lack of knowledge of TEís plan. Girardís Gate was destroyed because the Order had absolutely no way to defend it from anyone, not because they knew the plan. And then Team Evil travelled to Kraagorís Tomb immediately, they teleported away from the pyramid and to the gate instantaneously.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    I can kind of see the logic here. If Durkula's vampire crew had been capable of going outdoors, that would have vastly increased their strategic options. They would've been able to exercise a lot more flexibility and planning.

    Like the difference between having an army that's normal, and having an army that can fight only at night. An army that's dormant except during specific hours is going to rule out a lot of strategic avenues.

    That said - Durkula wasn't thinking much about strategy, because Hel already had a definite plan in place, with enough specificity that even without Durkula being physically present, his minions knew enough to carry it out. So they probably weren't going to place much value on strategic flexibility.

    In the end, it's really a parable on the value of contingency preparation and long-term thinking. That's what OOTS has always been about, really.

    (Not really.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by skim172 View Post
    I can kind of see the logic here. If Durkula's vampire crew had been capable of going outdoors, that would have vastly increased their strategic options. They would've been able to exercise a lot more flexibility and planning.

    Like the difference between having an army that's normal, and having an army that can fight only at night. An army that's dormant except during specific hours is going to rule out a lot of strategic avenues.

    That said - Durkula wasn't thinking much about strategy, because Hel already had a definite plan in place, with enough specificity that even without Durkula being physically present, his minions knew enough to carry it out. So they probably weren't going to place much value on strategic flexibility.

    In the end, it's really a parable on the value of contingency preparation and long-term thinking. That's what OOTS has always been about, really.

    (Not really.)
    Why would they need to fight outside when they were underground, except the hole in the ceiling it didnít come up.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Failing to name his followers was a mistake. Elan proved that in this world if you donít have a name you reduce your chance of survival in combat, and Durkon (and so presumably Durkon*) knew this.
    Undurkon didn't know everything Durkon knew. That was the entire point of the vampirism plot. I think this crucial bit of information was withheld from Undurkon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I donít know, Iíd say the most named people died first, Durkon* had Greg, Ponchula had a popular forum name, the Exarch (though he was probably more named than her) had a full and used title, Sandy had a forum nickname for awhile and Curly is still alive despite us just starting to give her one.
    Those are forum names. Undurkon had no name for himself, neither did his followers. And lots of Durkon's created (unnamed) vampires died before him: First major group were the Stonepeople at the Summit Mountain, the second one was the tunnel ambush near the Firmament temple.

    About "the" mistake of Undurkon, I would also point towards Durkon not setting up in the dining hall rather than in the debate room itself. The order was on its one, with only two dwarves for support. Durkon mobilized his family, and had his own plan as well. The order couldn't have possibly stormed the meeting room. But that's hindsight and there may be reasons in favor of the dining hall that Undurkon didn't tell the audience.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Hel's plan as is has a decent Plan A and Plan B.

    Without fast vampirism, Hel has no Plan B. When the Godsmoot measure does not yet pass, Greg is stuck there without any allies for 3 days. Then the Order cleans up the would be vampires, as they finally believe Belkar.

    Plan B, rigging the votes of the dwarven elders, requires multiple allies, which absolutely requires fast vampirism. He needs an ally to seize the orb of teleportation while key members of the the Order are distracted by the moot. He needs an ally to take his place at the moot, while he himself travels to dwarven lands.

    Without the orb of teleportation, winning the race to the council is nigh impossible.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Thinking of it, if Hel wants the world destroyed, couldn't she send Durkon* to Xyon with the exact location (which door) of Kraagor's gate?

    I don't know if she knows it, of course, but I bet the gods would quickly destroy the world if Xykon and RC were on the brink of giving the gate for TDO.
    Last edited by D.One; 2019-08-23 at 12:05 PM.
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    That honestly seems way more likely to go wrong than the plan she went with, which again, would have went off without a hitch if it wasn't for Durkon's memory trick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Thinking of it, if Hel wants the world destroyed, couldn't she send Durkon* to Xyon with the exact location (which door) of Kraagor's gate?

    I don't know if she knows it, of course, but I bet the gods would quickly destroy the world if Xykon and RC were on the brink of giving the gate for TDO.
    Does Hel know the location of the Gates, though?

    She doesn't had clerics during this world's tenure. Meaning she lacks eyes and ears in the World.

    She hasn't been attending the Godsmots because of a lack of clerics, meaning she was almost certainly not present at the Godsmot that discussed the issue back in the times of the Scribblers.

    And of the three pantheons, the Norther one was the one with no direct ties to the Scribblers. The Western Gods had Lirian via the Elven Gods. The Southern Gods had Soon, and also a Rift directly over their greatest city in the South. But the Northern Gods had no one, and the Rifts in the North were far from civilized lands.

    Thor and others like Loki probably learnt the location from the other Pantheons at the Godsmot, but Hel, having no clerics to communicate, probably couldn't, and I don't see the other Gods sharing the info with her, later.

    The Dark One certainly didn't know the location of the Gates, or Redcloak wouldn't have needed Serini's Diary. Why would Hel?
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-08-23 at 12:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onyavar View Post
    About "the" mistake of Undurkon, I would also point towards Durkon not setting up in the dining hall rather than in the debate room itself. The order was on its one, with only two dwarves for support. Durkon mobilized his family, and had his own plan as well. The order couldn't have possibly stormed the meeting room. But that's hindsight and there may be reasons in favor of the dining hall that Undurkon didn't tell the audience.
    Come to think of it, this is kinda hard to explain. I mean the order didn't actually do anything relevant to stopping the Exarch except fighting the worm he summoned, largely because of the orange barrier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Thinking of it, if Hel wants the world destroyed, couldn't she send Durkon* to Xyon with the exact location (which door) of Kraagor's gate?

    I don't know if she knows it, of course, but I bet the gods would quickly destroy the world if Xykon and RC were on the brink of giving the gate for TDO.
    They would also destroy Hel for violating the explicit gag order on the Snarl and endangering them all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    They would also destroy Hel for violating the explicit gag order on the Snarl and endangering them all.
    Not if she plays by the rules and just tells her Cleric to help and eventually "recruit" a powerful lich.

    As I said, I don't know if Hel knows the exact location of the Gate.

    Remember Durkon already knew about the Sanrl, so she wouldn't be breaking rules.
    Last edited by D.One; 2019-08-23 at 01:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Not if she plays by the rules and just tells her Cleric to help and eventually "recruit" a powerful lich.

    As I said, I don't know if Hel knows the exact location of the Gate.

    Remember Durkon already knew about the Sanrl, so she wouldn't be breaking rules.
    Would you be inclined to help someone who helped to free the Snarl in the last world? Because Iíd be inclined to show that goddess that doing that isnít tolerated, even if it didnít technically break any rules Id find a way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Would you be inclined to help someone who helped to free the Snarl in the last world? Because Iíd be inclined to show that goddess that doing that isnít tolerated, even if it didnít technically break any rules Id find a way.
    I share the sentiment, but I really think these gods don't cooperate out of goodwill alone, but mostly because of the intricate rules they have made. Seh would be viewed as an evil, cruel, self-centered goddess who didn't care for anything beyond her own power and position? Sure. Quite just like now.
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    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Not if she plays by the rules and just tells her Cleric to help and eventually "recruit" a powerful lich.

    As I said, I don't know if Hel knows the exact location of the Gate.

    Remember Durkon already knew about the Sanrl, so she wouldn't be breaking rules.
    Durkon knew about the Snarl, and the vampire may have known about the Snarl, but there's no reason to believe the vampire told any of his people. Unless Curly or the Frontarch know about the Snarl, she can't tell them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    I share the sentiment, but I really think these gods don't cooperate out of goodwill alone, but mostly because of the intricate rules they have made. Seh would be viewed as an evil, cruel, self-centered goddess who didn't care for anything beyond her own power and position? Sure. Quite just like now.
    Oh yes, but Iíd say that they also operate out of self-interest, they are terrified of the Snarl (how else do you think youíve got the Chaotics at least paying lip-service to the rules) and so someone who helped free it would be looked down on and wouldnít be getting any favors for a few worlds.

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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    I'd say the accelerate vampirism was a mistake...But only in that, as is implied, lacking the three-day adjustment period is what made him vulnerable to Durkon's master stroke. I assume that, in a normal vampire, they aren't just shown the target's worst day: They're shown a carefully structured sequence of negative moments in the victim's life, helping them build up a separate identity strong enough to not be overwhelmed by positivity. However, since he lacked that period, only having the one memory to work with, his personality was left weak and barely-formed, weak enough that Durkon could use his exceptionally strong will and flood of life experience to overwhelm HPOH.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Only sleeping creatures are woken up by damage and being asleep isn't the same thing as being unconscious by RAW. If anything by RAW you use pain to make people unconscious
    By the way, if you are going to complain that The Giant didn't abide by RAW, then it should be noted that, by RAW, the Exarch could never had broken into V's private chamber in the Mechane to steal the Orb, as he was never invited in by anyone with authority to do so. In fact, neither the Exarch or any other vampire could have got into the Orange Room, much less the Council's Room, as those aren't public places and they were never invited in by anyone with authority to do so.

    Vampire Weaknesses
    (...)
    They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.
    (...)
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-08-23 at 05:35 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    By the way, if you are going to complain that The Giant didn't abide by RAW, then it should be noted that, by RAW, the Exarch could never had broken into V's private chamber in the Mechane to steal the Orb, as he was never invited in by anyone with authority to do so. In fact, neither the Exarch or any other vampire could have got into the Orange Room, much less the Council's Room, as those aren't public places and they were never invited in by anyone with authority to do so.
    Maybe Durkula had permission to go aboard (being told by a commanding officer, Roy, to go take a look around), and so had permission to let his subordinate in?
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    I don't care. But if someone is going to partisan in this forum about how their beloved characters only lost because the Author fudged the rules, it should be noted that those characters only had a chance at winning because the Author was fudging the rules in favor of them.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-08-24 at 05:39 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    hroĢila's Avatar

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    Default Re: Durkon*'s mistake

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Come to think of it, this is kinda hard to explain. I mean the order didn't actually do anything relevant to stopping the Exarch except fighting the worm he summoned, largely because of the orange barrier.
    The thing is, if Durkon had done that, the Order would indeed not have been able to storm the meeting room. Meaning that Durkon wouldn't have got the chance to fight Roy, which is something he wanted to do for his own sake, independently from (and at odds with) Hel's plan. See the comic where Hel has to remind Durkon about his actual goal, and all the dialogue between Durkon and Roy during their fight at the Godsmoot.
    ungelic is us

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