The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Results 1 to 6 of 6
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Idea for a more balanced Lore Master wizard

    So the loremaster wizard is ludicrously powerful, but it's also the most wizardly wizard to ever wizard a spell. With that in mind, I decided to take a crack at making it a bit more balanced. The first draft I present here is inomplete, as I feel it is still too powerful, and so I hope some of you could help find the right restrictions to balance it against the other schools.

    Spoiler: Loremaster Revised
    Show
    Lore Mastery
    Starting at 2nd level, you become a compendium of knowledge on a vast array of topics. You learn two languages of your choice. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses the Arcana, History, Nature, or Religion skill if you are proficient in that skill.

    In addition, your analytical abilities are so well-honed that your initiative in combat can be driven by mental agility, rather than physical agility. When you roll initiative, you may make an intelligence check using a skill appropriate to the surrounding terrain (as determined by your DM) with which you have proficiency and use the result in place of your initiative roll. Once you have used this feature, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

    Natural Lore
    At 2nd level, you master the first in a series of arcane secrets uncovered by your extensive studies. You have learned to imitate the natural magic of the wild places with arcane ingenuity.

    You gain proficiency with the Nature skill.

    You learn one Druid cantrip of your choice, and add one 1st-level spells from the Druid's spell list to your spellbook. These count as Wizard spells for you. You may also inscribe any spell from the Druid spell list that has the ritual tag to your spell book as if they were wizard spells. However, doing so is twice as expensive as normal, and casting a ritual from the Druid list takes twice as long as normal for you.

    Additionally, if you have an active familiar, you may expend a spell slot to change its form into that of any natural creature with a CR determined by the CR of the spell level used. This effect lasts for up to one minute as long as you maintain concentration, as if concentrating on a spell, and while under the effect of this ability your familiar may take the attack action.

    Extraplanar Lore
    At 6th level, you learn to imitate the divine and primordial magic practiced by priests and cultists by arcane means.

    You gain proficiency with the Religion skill.

    You learn one Cleric cantrip of your choice, and add one 1st-level spells from the Cleric's spell list to your spellbook. These count as Wizard spells for you. You may also inscribe any spell from the Cleric spell list that has the ritual tag to your spell book as if they were wizard spells. However, doing so is twice as expensive as normal, and casting a ritual from the Cleric list takes twice as long as normal for you.

    Additionally, if you have an active familiar, you may expend a spell slot to change its form into that of any Celestial, Elemental, or Fiend creature with a CR determined by the CR of the spell level used. This effect lasts for up to one minute as long as you maintain concentration, as if concentrating on a spell, and while under the effect of this ability your familiar may take the attack action.

    Prodigious Memory
    At 10th level, you have attained a greater mastery of spell preparation. As a bonus action, you can replace one spell you have prepared with another spell from your spellbook. You canít use this feature again until you finish a short or long rest.

    Master of Magic
    At 14th level, your knowledge of magic allows you to duplicate almost any spell. As a bonus action, you can call to mind the ability to cast one spell of your choice from any classís spell list. The spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, you mustnít have it prepared, and you follow the normal rules for casting it, including expending a spell slot. If the spell isnít a wizard spell, it counts as a wizard spell when you cast it. The ability to cast the spell vanishes from your mind when you cast it or when the current turn ends.

    You canít use this feature again until you finish a long rest.


    So my primary question is what sort of CR chart would be appropriate, and if there are too many abilities which would be the most appropriate to cut?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Fighting Demons!

    Default Re: Idea for a more balanced Lore Master wizard

    Everything looks fine, with one exception and one note.

    Note: Giving a Cleric spell gives Healing Word or Cure Wounds (and Druid gives similar), which allows for unlimited heals at level 18. I don't consider that BROKEN, but I do consider it noteworthy enough to make sure you're aware of it.

    Exception: Master of Magic is way too strong. Just scrap it entirely and replace with something else, in my opinion.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Current Avatar by Elder Tsofu, who is awesome!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Idea for a more balanced Lore Master wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Everything looks fine, with one exception and one note.

    Note: Giving a Cleric spell gives Healing Word or Cure Wounds (and Druid gives similar), which allows for unlimited heals at level 18. I don't consider that BROKEN, but I do consider it noteworthy enough to make sure you're aware of it.

    Exception: Master of Magic is way too strong. Just scrap it entirely and replace with something else, in my opinion.
    Noted, I'll update the wording so that they use Intelligence as the spellcasting ability but do not count as Wizard spells. This removes the interaction with Spell Mastery.

    Regarding Master of Magic: would this feature be too strong if it were limited to spells of 5th level or lower? Or perhaps it would be better if I removed the concentration on the familiar transformation to make that feature worth using when high level concentration spells are available.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Fighting Demons!

    Default Re: Idea for a more balanced Lore Master wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodshed343 View Post
    Noted, I'll update the wording so that they use Intelligence as the spellcasting ability but do not count as Wizard spells. This removes the interaction with Spell Mastery.

    Regarding Master of Magic: would this feature be too strong if it were limited to spells of 5th level or lower? Or perhaps it would be better if I removed the concentration on the familiar transformation to make that feature worth using when high level concentration spells are available.
    Just blanket "Any spell" is ridiculous when not limited in some fashion. Magical Secrets, for instance, allows access to any spell list... But once you pick your spells, that's it. Done. No swapping them out.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Current Avatar by Elder Tsofu, who is awesome!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Apr 2019

    Default Re: Idea for a more balanced Lore Master wizard

    Lore Mastery
    I think this can be simplified by stating that you gain expertise in relevant skills your proficient in, and adding your intelligence modifier to your initiative roll. I would remove nature and religion from the list of skills getting expertise.

    Natural Lore and Extra-planar Lore
    I would add the removed expertise here instead. You gain proficiency if not already proficient, and expertise if you are already proficient. Additionally please clarify if concentrating on your familiars transformation uses your "concentration slot" IE can you have an actively transformed familiar while also concentrating on a different spell at the same time.

    Master of Magic
    I agree that this is particularly powerful, especially at level 14. How would you feel if instead you treated it like the Bard's magical secrets feature and have them learn a number of spells from any other classes spell list, and to differentiate it from magical secrets have it be upgrade-able. Something along the lines of:

    Master of Magic At 14th level, you knowledge of magic allows you to duplicate almost any spell. You learn three spells from any class, including this one. The spells you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Wizard table, or a cantrip. The chosen Spells count as Wizard spells for you and are included in the number in the spells known column of the wizard table. These spells use your intelligence modifier where applicable. Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of these spells and replace it with another spell from any class, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots. You cannot replace both a non-wizard spell and wizard at the same time.

    This would keep the theme of learning from other disciplines as you level up, gaining spells that not even bards would be able to steal, but not be as powerful as being able to do it on the fly.
    Last edited by TheClaimer; 2019-08-19 at 02:59 PM. Reason: formatting, clarification

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Idea for a more balanced Lore Master wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by TheClaimer View Post
    Lore Mastery
    I think this can be simplified by stating that you gain expertise in relevant skills your proficient in, and adding your intelligence modifier to your initiative roll. I would remove nature and religion from the list of skills getting expertise.

    Natural Lore and Extra-planar Lore
    I would add the removed expertise here instead. You gain proficiency if not already proficient, and expertise if you are already proficient. Additionally please clarify if concentrating on your familiars transformation uses your "concentration slot" IE can you have an actively transformed familiar while also concentrating on a different spell at the same time.

    Master of Magic
    I agree that this is particularly powerful, especially at level 14. How would you feel if instead you treated it like the Bard's magical secrets feature and have them learn a number of spells from any other classes spell list, and to differentiate it from magical secrets have it be upgrade-able. Something along the lines of:

    Master of Magic At 14th level, you knowledge of magic allows you to duplicate almost any spell. You learn three spells from any class, including this one. The spells you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Wizard table, or a cantrip. The chosen Spells count as Wizard spells for you and are included in the number in the spells known column of the wizard table. These spells use your intelligence modifier where applicable. Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of these spells and replace it with another spell from any class, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots. You cannot replace both a non-wizard spell and wizard at the same time.

    This would keep the theme of learning from other disciplines as you level up, gaining spells that not even bards would be able to steal, but not be as powerful as being able to do it on the fly.
    I like this version of Master of Magic. I've also reworked the empowered familiar feature a bit to take the same sort of role in combat as the Druid's wild shape, but in a more limited and less resilient fashion. Take a look:

    Spoiler: Loremaster
    Show
    Lore Mastery
    Starting at 2nd level, you become a compendium of knowledge on a vast array of topics. You learn two languages of your choice. You gain proficiency with Arcana and History if you are not already. If you are proficient, you gain expertise in those skills instead.

    In addition, your analytical abilities are so well-honed that your initiative in combat can be driven by mental agility, rather than physical agility. When you roll initiative, you gain a bonus to the roll equal to your Intelligence modifier.

    Natural Lore
    At 2nd level, you master the first in a series of arcane secrets uncovered by your extensive studies. You have learned to imitate the natural magic of the wild places with arcane ingenuity.

    You gain proficiency with the Nature skill if you are not already proficient. If you are proficient, you gain expertise.

    You learn one Druid cantrip of your choice, and add one 1st-level spells from the Druid's spell list to your spellbook. These count as Wizard spells for you. You may also inscribe any spell from the Druid spell list that has the ritual tag to your spell book as if they were wizard spells. However, doing so is twice as expensive as normal, and casting a ritual from the Druid list takes twice as long as normal for you.

    Additionally, if you have an active familiar, you may expend a spell slot of 5th level or lower to empower it. When you do, you change its form into that of any natural creature with a CR no greater than the level of the spell slot expended. This effect lasts for up to one minute. While your familiar is in this form, it may take any action or use any ability granted by its form, including making attacks. You must spend your action on each of your turns to maintain this form. If your familiar drops to 0 hp, it reverts to its original form and vanishes into a pocket dimension.

    Extraplanar Lore
    At 6th level, you learn to imitate the divine and primordial magic practiced by priests and cultists by arcane means.

    You gain proficiency with the Religion skill if you are not already proficient. If you are proficient, you gain expertise.

    You learn one Cleric cantrip of your choice, and add one 1st-level spells from the Cleric's spell list to your spellbook. These count as Wizard spells for you. You may also inscribe any spell from the Cleric spell list that has the ritual tag to your spell book as if they were wizard spells. However, doing so is twice as expensive as normal, and casting a ritual from the Cleric list takes twice as long as normal for you.

    Additionally, when you expend a slot of 3rd level or higher to empower your familiar, you may choose for your familiar to take the form of a celestial, elemental, or fiend.

    Prodigious Memory
    At 10th level, you have attained a greater mastery of spell preparation. As a bonus action, you can replace one spell you have prepared with another spell from your spellbook. You canít use this feature again until you finish a short or long rest.

    Master of Magic
    At 14th level, you knowledge of magic allows you to duplicate almost any spell. You learn three spells from any class, including this one. The spells you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Wizard table, or a cantrip. The chosen Spells count as Wizard spells for you and are included in the number in the spells known column of the wizard table. These spells use your intelligence modifier where applicable. Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of these spells and replace it with another spell from any class, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots. You cannot replace both a non-wizard spell and wizard at the same time.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •