The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 244
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Taking off from this thread around page 8 or so, we're piecing together a spell-less ranger overhaul.

    This will be edited as we progress.

    Level Proficiency Bonus Quarry Die Class Feature
    1 +2 1d4 Quarry, Trailblazer
    2 +2 1d4 Fighting Style, Nature's Boon
    3 +2 1d4 Clade, Keen Eye
    4 +2 1d4 Ability Score Increase
    5 +3 1d6 Extra Attack, Expertise
    6 +3 1d6 Quarry Improvement
    7 +3 1d6 Clade Feature
    8 +3 1d6 Ability Score Increase
    9 +4 1d8 Nature's Boon
    10 +4 1d8 Clade Feature
    11 +4 1d8 Quarry Improvement
    12 +4 1d8 Ability Score Increase
    13 +5 1d10 Feral Senses
    14 +5 1d10 Clade Feature
    15 +5 1d10 Unfettered Movement
    16 +5 1d10 Ability Score Increase
    17 +6 1d12 Nature's Boon
    18 +6 1d12 Clade Feature
    19 +6 1d12 Ability Score Increase
    20 +6 1d12 Capstone

    Hit Die: d10
    Saving Throws: Strength, Dexterity
    Weapons: Simple, Martial
    Armor: Light, Medium, Shields
    Skills: Choose three from Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Athletics, Insight, Investigation, Nature, Perception, Stealth, and Survival

    Quarry (1)
    Once on your turn, after making an attack against a creature you can see, you may designate that creature as your Quarry. This effect lasts until the end of your next turn, or until you mark another creature as your Quarry.
    When you make an attack against a marked Quarry, you deal an extra 1d4 damage of the same type as the attack. This damage increases at higher levels as shown on the Ranger table.

    Starting at level 6, when a creature marked as your Quarry hits you with an attack or targets you with an effect that has you making a saving throw, you can use your reaction to either reduce the damage taken or gain a bonus to your saving throw equal to the result of your Quarry die.

    Starting at level 11, once on each of your turns when you miss your marked Quarry with an attack, you can make another attack against that creature.

    Trailblazer (1)
    You gain your choice of either a Climb or Swim speed equal to your movement.
    In addition, while travelling for an hour or more you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to any Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom ability checks or saving throws you or your allies make.

    Fighting Style (2)
    At 2nd level, you adopt a particular style of fighting as your specialty. Choose one of the following options.
    You cannot take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.

    Archery: You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls you make with ranged weapons.
    Defense: While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.
    Dueling: When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.
    Two-Weapon Fighting: When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.

    Nature's Boon (2)
    At level 2, and again at levels 9 and 17, choose one option from the list below:

    Land's Stride: Your movement speed increases by 5 feet and you can ignore nonmagical difficult terrain. If selected a second time you gain a further 5 foot increase to your speed and can also ignore magical difficult terrain.
    Camouflage: When you take the Hide action you become invisible until you move more than 5 feet, make an attack or cast a spell. If selected a second time you can remain invisible until you move more than your movement speed instead of more than 5 feet.
    Healing Salves: As a part of a long rest, you can prepare a number of healing salves equal to your Wisdom modifier. Each salve restores HP equal to 1d8 + Ranger level and can be applied to a creature using an action. If selected a second time each healing salve applied a creature also provides the benefits of a Lesser Restoration spell or removes one level of exhaustion.

    Keen Eye (3)
    You can take the Search action as a bonus action

    Extra Attack (5)
    You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

    Expertise (5)
    Choose two of your skill or tool proficiencies. Your Proficiency Bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.

    Feral Senses (13)
    When making an attack against a creature you cannot see you do not do so at a disadvantage, and creatures that you cannot see do not gain advantage on attacks against you.

    Unfettered Movement (15)
    Spells and magical effects cannot reduce your speed and you gain advantage on saving throws against being Paralysed, Restrained or Stunned.

    Foe Slayer (20)
    When you hit your marked Quarry with an attack you can choose to deal an extra 50 damage of the same damage type as the attack. In addition, the marked quarry is either blinded or poisoned until the end of its next turn.
    Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until the end of a long rest.

    Spoiler: Beastmaster
    Show

    Animal Companion (3)
    You acquire a beast companion that accompanies you on your adventures and is trained to fight alongside you. Choose a beast that is no larger than Large and that has a challenge rating of 1/4 or lower (appendix D of the PHB presents statistics for the hawk, mastiff, and panther as examples). Add your proficiency bonus to the beast’s AC and attack rolls, as well as to all saving throws and one skill of your choice of Athletics, Acrobatics, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth and Survivial. The beast's hit point maximum is increased by 4 for every ranger level you have. Its hit die is a d8, and it has the same number of hit dice as you do. It also gains the bonus damage from your Quarry feature when attacking a marked quarry.

    The beast obeys your commands as best as it can, taking its turn on your initiative. You can use a bonus action to verbally command it to take an action, or it can use the Dodge action if not issued a command. It may use its movement and reaction freely, with or without a command. Your beast can only make one attack using its action.

    If you fall unconscious your beast will attempt to move and remain within 5 feet of you, attacking enemies that approach within 10 feet of you. If the beast dies you can obtain another during a long rest.

    At Ranger level 7 you can choose a beast of CR 1/2 or lower, and at Ranger level 14 you can choose a beast of CR 1 or lower.

    Beast link (3)
    You can cast Speak With Animals and Beast Sense spells without expending a spell slot or material components.

    Beastcall (7)
    By spending one minute you can call up to twelve beasts of up to CR 1/2 to you from the surrounding area, determined by the DM. Upon arrival these beasts are friendly to you and will assist with one task for up to one hour before dispersing.
    Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

    Bestial Fury (10)
    Your beasts attacks are considered magical for the purposes of overcoming damage resistance and immunity. In addition, your beast companion gains the following reaction:
    Defensive Pounce: The beast companion imposes disadvantage on the attack roll of one creature it can see that is within its reach, provided the attack is against a creature other than the beast companion.

    Beast's Defense (14)
    When your beast uses its Defensive Pounce ability your beast companion also gains resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage until the start of your next turn.

    Greater Beastcall (18)
    You can use your Beastcall feature as an action instead of taking one minute, and call up to CR 1 beasts to assist you. In addition, you regain use of your Beastcall feature when you finish a short or long rest.


    Spoiler: Hunter
    Show

    Focused Target (3)
    When you mark a creature as your Quarry you can also add your Quarry die to the damage dealt from the attack. In addition, when you roll damage for an attack against a marked Quarry, you can roll the Quarry damage die twice and use either result.

    Survivalist (3)
    You gain proficiency in your choice of Investigation, Perception, Survival or one tool of your choice. Your Proficiency Bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses the chosen proficiency.

    Terrain Adaption (7)
    When you finish a long rest you gain resistance to one damage type according to the terrain you finished your rest in, which lasts until your next long rest.
    Coast/Aquatic: Thunder or Lightning
    Arctic: Cold or Force
    Desert: Fire or Radiant
    Plains/Forest: Piercing or Poison
    Highland: Fire or Cold
    Swamp: Acid or Poison
    Underground: Necrotic or Bludgeoning
    Urban: Psychic or Slashing

    Multiattack (10)
    As an action you can make one attack that targets all creatures you choose within reach. Alternatively if you are using a ranged weapon you can make one attack against all creatures you can see within a 10' radius and within range. When you make this attack you can mark all creatures you hit as your Quarry.

    Seasoned Explorer (14)
    As long as you are not incapacitated, you and up to five creatures you choose within 30 feet of you cannot be surprised.

    Eternal Hunter (18)
    When you designate a creature as your Quarry the creature remains marked until you choose to end the effect, which requires no action on your part. In addition, when you score a critical hit against a marked quarry that creature gains vulnerability to the damage of your attacks until the end of your next turn.

    Spoiler: Warden
    Show

    Ranger Level Cantrips Known 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
    3 2 2 - - -
    4 2 3 - - -
    5 2 3 - - -
    6 2 3 - - -
    7 2 4 2 - -
    8 2 4 2 - -
    9 2 4 2 - -
    10 3 4 3 - -
    11 3 4 3 - -
    12 3 4 3 - -
    13 3 4 3 2 -
    14 3 4 3 2 -
    15 3 4 3 2 -
    16 3 4 3 3 -
    17 3 4 3 3 -
    18 3 4 3 3 -
    19 3 4 3 3 1
    20 3 4 3 3 1

    Spellcasting and Ritual Casting (3)
    You learn two cantrips of your choice from the druid spell list. You learn an additional druid cantrip of your choice at 10th level.

    The table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

    You prepare the spells that are available to you from the druid spell list. When you do so, choose a number of druid spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + half your Ranger level, rounded down (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest.

    Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier
    Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier

    You can cast a druid spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and you have the spell prepared.

    Wildsense (3)
    As an action you can detect the presence and direction of Aberration, Monstrosity, Fey, Dragon and Undead type creatures within one mile of you for up to one minute. This can be used to track down a specific creature type or determine safe routes within the area. Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

    Invigorating Ley (7)
    When you cast a spell you can choose one creature you can see, including yourself, to gain Temporary Hit Points equal to three per level of the spell slot expended. These temporary hit points last up to one hour.

    Rapid Spell (10)
    When you cast a spell with a casting time of one action and that targets only a creature you have marked as your Quarry you can choose to cast it as a bonus action instead. Using this feature ends the mark on your quarry, and this spell cannot then mark the creature as your quarry.

    Primeval Ward (14)
    When you use your reaction to reduce the damage taken from an attack your Quarry makes, your marked Quarry takes damage equal to that reduced by your quarry die.

    Instinctive Recovery (18)
    When a creature succeeds on a saving throw against a spell you cast or you miss with a spell attack from a spell you cast you can choose to regain the spell slot you expended to cast the spell.
    Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

    Spoiler: But what about the Ranger spells?
    Show

    Hunter's Mark is added to the Druid spell list dealing a bonus d8 of damage once per turn instead of a d6 on every hit
    Ensnaring Strike is added to the Druid spell list
    Hail of Thorns is added to the Druid spell list
    Zephyr Strike is added to the Druid spell list
    Cordon of Arrows is added to the Druid spell list and also includes bullets and darts among the ammunition usable
    Conjure Barrage is added to the Druid spell list as a 2nd level spell
    Lightning Arrow is added to the Druid spell list as a 2nd level spell dealing 3d8 lightning damage on the initial hit instead of 4d8
    Conjure Volley is added to the Druid spell list as a 3rd level spell dealing 5d8 damage instead of 8d8
    Steel Wind Strike is added to the Druid spell list as a 3rd level spell dealing 4d10 damage instead of 6d10
    Swift Quiver is added to the Druid spell list as a 4th level spell with a casting time of one action instead of one bonus action.

    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-10-09 at 03:21 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2018

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Alright, so if you read the other thread you know I'm strongly opposed to a Ranger as a full class in 5e. That being said there is a lot of potential that you have here to prove me wrong with a full rewrite of the class and I'll give my opinion on what I think the class needs. (While staying within your guidelines as much as possible. I'm trying to help after all :P )

    First I think that going spell less we should look towards other fully martial classes. That's fighter, rogue and Barbarian. Each of them deals with not having spells in it's own way.

    The Barbarian has a very potent core class feature in Rage.
    The Rogue has a strong class feature in sneak attack and an extra ASI.
    Fighters have nothing spectacular, but get two more ASI's.

    I think you should look at these in figuring out the base for the class.
    I personally think that a progression similar to a Rogue with a single ASI extra would be appropriate, but I also know we're trying to fit a lot into a class, so it may not be feasible.

    I also have gathered (I kept reading the last thread even after my contributions were done) that we are trying to make some pretty distinct Subclasses. For this I might suggest moving the selection is Subclass earlier in the progression. Second, or maybe even first level. Though I may be wrong about this being your intention, it seems like a good idea to me.

    I would put Stealth and Tracking mainly in the Hunter subclass. The Beastmaster and Warden in my mind (I'm going to proceed with the disclaimer that this is all my opinion so I can stop saying 'in my mind' or 'I think' etc) don't need these skills to be a main part of who they are, and would be sufficient with proficiency, and possibly pseudo expertise in certain situations coming from a base class feature.

    Nature and Senses I think should be at the core of the base class and should have some early features dedicated to them in the base class.

    I also think that they should get a good combat oriented feature early in their path. Possibly the first feature of the subclass. I would split this mobility (Beastmaster) and damage (Hunter, Warden). Nothing too crazy, but make sure it scales with their level.

    For healing I think something akin to the healer feat would be appropriate for the class. Not magical ability to mend wounds through the use of nature. Maybe allowing a survival check to find the materials to create a healing salve? I honestly would be okay with it having the exact same mechanics as Healer, maybe minus the bullet point about getting a creature up to 1 HP when stabilizing?

    I do think this should be a pretty subclass heavy class. That's going back to me feeling that we're trying to put a lot of identity, both narratively and mechanically, into the subclass. This means we need a lot of features coming from the subclass to bring it all together.

    I'll post more as the thread gets responses to give my two copper, though I'll remain silent on the Beastmaster for the most part. I'm far too biased on that subject to contribute meaningfully I think. Though I will chime in if I think I have something useful and non confrontational :P

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I feel that, considering how much variation between different approaches there is within the class as a whole, the best sub-class progression could be Fighter, but I might change the sub-class entry point to as early as 2nd-level.

    In fact, I would consider making the spellcasting a sub-class feature (even if it works with multiple sub-classes).
    I'm aware that being able to cast spells has been iconic for the class for years over several editions, but I think there should remain equal design space for no spellcasting as well.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2019-08-19 at 01:26 AM.
    My 5th Edition D&D Homebrew:
    Don't look for an insult when there is none.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anon von Zilch View Post
    Words actually mean things, people!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I begin with saying that I think the issues with the ranger lies in a badly designed/lack of main combat mechanic that creates a ludonarrative dissonance (hunters mark doesn't cut it for me) and a badly defined thematic structure for it's subclasses (some are about their preferred terrain (horizon walker and gloom stalker), some about what they do( beast master and Hunter), and one about what they fight(monster slayer)).

    The main combat mechanic should probably be in the main class and not be split between the subclasses and choosing a spell(hunters mark). Having a stronger focus on the mechanic in the main class would strengthen the mechanical identity of the class. I am not sure what this should be but the easiest thing would be to take Colossus Slayer or horde breaker and make it into the main mechanic for the whole class. Action surge, rage, sneak attack, and smites all scale over levels in another way than hunters mark does.

    I think we need to design what a ranger subclass actually would define. Moving the favoured terrain or preferred enemy to be the structure of the subclass would probably help make the class more defined. The other thread discussed that the main identity of the ranger is someone who protects the border between wilderness and society. The subclasses could then be about either what they defend or what they defend it from. Just keeping it as what they do is probably a bit to vague? I hunt or I have a pet is a bit boring to build a subclass around (but if you still want this, the four base subclasses should be traps, druidic magic, tracking(not hunting), and pets).

    I would also be fine with the base class having access to some ritual casting. It would make it stand out a bit more; having ritual casting without being a full spell caster.
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2019-08-19 at 05:57 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    So just as a forewarning this thread in particular is for Paladinn's benefit but by no means do I want to disregard what others have to say.

    Stealth, Tracking and Healing appear to be secondary traits when brought up, so one feature for each should suffice. If you wanted to emphasise those aspects we could do so via spells, feats and/or additional subclasses.

    Combat feature at level 1 and being a major factor in the class seems to be a major point also.

    Subclass starting at level 2 sounds like a good idea, unless given good reason not to I think i'll use that for the first draft. If class is going to lean heavily into subclasses going this route then perhaps levels 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18 would be appropriate points for features.

    Speaking of subclasses, the three starting point basically mimic the fighter PHB ones. Hunters are the Ranger+, the idea isn't to add extra buttons but to improve on what you already do in a straightforward way. Beastmaster is the higher floor/ceiling option that gives extra options and a unique mechanic to the Ranger, and the Warden is the spellcasting subclass that blends into the martial starting point.

    Oh, and adding in Extra Attack to the table now in its customary spot.

    Now for the primary combat feature, it needs to be strong, flavorful, unique and scale with level without being a must-have dip item. For a first attempt how about: As a bonus action choose one creature you can see. The next attack you make before the end of your next turn against that creature gains a +1d4 to the attack and damage rolls.
    This would increase in die size as you get more levels in ranger, an improved version in the mid levels might also gain that die to use in saving throws against that creature, subclasses could change the damage type, share that die with an ally or trade that die to raise AC or resist damage taken, just as initial ideas. Maybe at later levels free up that bonus action too.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Now for the primary combat feature, it needs to be strong, flavorful, unique and scale with level without being a must-have dip item. For a first attempt how about: As a bonus action choose one creature you can see. The next attack you make before the end of your next turn against that creature gains a +1d4 to the attack and damage rolls.
    This would increase in die size as you get more levels in ranger, an improved version in the mid levels might also gain that die to use in saving throws against that creature, subclasses could change the damage type, share that die with an ally or trade that die to raise AC or resist damage taken, just as initial ideas. Maybe at later levels free up that bonus action too.
    This is not worth it for dual wield rangers. It is just better to do an offhand attack with the bonus action. That said, it is good for a ranged ranger.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Yes, I had considered that. I remove that particular problem with TWF with the Dual Wielder feat myself but I can see that's beyond the scope of this thread, so in that case we could make Quarry actionless.
    Doing so would mean we have to reduce its power somewhat of course. Perhaps take away the to-hit bonus, add some sort of condition to qualify for the extra damage and scale it a bit better such as by keeping pace with proficiency bonus like the Monk's Martial Arts die.

    Quarry: When you attack a creature you can choose to mark it. The next time you hit a marked creature with an attack before the end of your next turn they take extra damage (1d4/1d6/1d8/1d10/1d12 at levels 1/5/9/13/17 respectively). Level 11 add that bonus die to saving throws against the marked creature or expend it to reduce their attack or damage roll against you. Not sure for a level 20 improvement.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I did some quick statistics on the previous version. 1d4 is in most cases worse than the extra off-hand attack. At 1d6 or more, the off-hand attack is better if you got the two weapon fighting style from a damage perspective but the quarry die is better to hit high ac targets.

    It isn't as black and white as I thought at first. That said, I would prefer something that doesn't take a bonus action.

    Can you apply the mark on every attack?
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2019-08-19 at 10:29 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2018

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Yes, I had considered that. I remove that particular problem with TWF with the Dual Wielder feat myself but I can see that's beyond the scope of this thread, so in that case we could make Quarry actionless.
    Doing so would mean we have to reduce its power somewhat of course. Perhaps take away the to-hit bonus, add some sort of condition to qualify for the extra damage and scale it a bit better such as by keeping pace with proficiency bonus like the Monk's Martial Arts die.

    Quarry: When you attack a creature you can choose to mark it. The next time you hit a marked creature with an attack before the end of your next turn they take extra damage (1d4/1d6/1d8/1d10/1d12 at levels 1/5/9/13/17 respectively). Level 11 add that bonus die to saving throws against the marked creature or expend it to reduce their attack or damage roll against you. Not sure for a level 20 improvement.
    I think we need to divorce the ranger from the dual-wield model. I realise that rangers have been know for TWF and/or archery since 2e; but as we're trying to be inclusive of older visions of what a ranger is, I would just leave fighting style open to any.

    I'm liking where the Quarry feature is going. I had not considered limiting to a foe that you've already attacked and "marked", but this is akin to my suggestion that the feature kicks in on the second turn, after you've had a chance to "study" your target. I would still add a bonus to AC. Once you know how your for fights, you can better defend against it. How we spread that out (as well as the stealth and enhanced senses features), I'm open to suggestions.

    Limited healing I would include in a wilderness survival feature, along with woodland stride and possibly favored terrain options; the base features to be embellished within the Hunter subclass. Leaving many of the mobility features to the Beastmaster subclass is an interesting possibility. You would, of course, want to keep up with your pet, and your bond could enhance your mobility and senses. I've never been a fan of animal companions, but I'm willing to be open-minded.

    VERY limited wildshape could be interesting on the Warden subclass, as long as it doesn't approach the level of the druid ability. I'd be open to making it a spell, and letting the Warden have 1/3 spell progression, as long as they don't get everything the Hunter gets.

    I'm curious: is there a 5e standard level where subclasses kick in? I'd thought it was level 3. I'd give the fighting style at level 2, just to be different than the fighter. ASI and extra attack at 4 and 5. Quarry would definitely start at lvl 1 as the ranger's "thing". Level 3 for first archetype features.

    @Kane0: you said you started this thread for "my" benefit; but I hope you agree that this is a good start for an actually usable ranger.

    One other thought: for the benefit of those stuck on the Robin Hood model of the ranger, should we include an archetype that specialized in ranged combat?

    Just IMO, I don't care for bolted-on mechanics like superiority dice, etc. They make the subclass/feature in question seem like an afterthought.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Iceland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    What are your design goals, specifically?

    Are we changing Hit Dice or starting proficiencies?
    I've never been a fan of the d10. I'm pretty sure it's a remnant of an older edition. Seeing how a melee ranger would have the tools to fend of attacks, and the ranged ranger is... ranged. I think a d8 is far more fitting. It gives us more design space within the more fun features of the class, and the more design space we can create the bigger the features can be.

    At what levels should we place subclass features?
    I never found out what method was used to determine this part. I always imagined you'd start of making one class+subclass combo in a way that makes sense, and then 'extract' the subclass out of your design.

    Main Combat Thing

    This really depends on the feature. It's also hard to be original IMO. We have so many different features for the other classes, this one has to be distinctly ranger. I've always been a fan of accuracy for the ranger, and hunter's quarry is a easy tool to help the ranger scale. Rerolling attack rolls is really what sells me on the ranger archetype.

    -----------------------------

    @Galithar - Post #2
    Seeing how levels 1-3 are meant for character introduction rather than character development, where on these three levels the subclass falls doesn't really matter. The bigger the subclass, the later you should introduce it, since levels 1-3 are designed for newcomers. These levels should have a nice and escalating complexity curve, starting out dead-simple.

    I agree that for most of the tracking and wilderness stuff, proficiencies and expertise will suffice, although ribbons are always cool. The player can take these tools and tailor them to his specific playstyle. Then we can of course choose the class skill list.

    Regarding Senses and Nature, I agree that these are important. I would, however, rather like to see nature ribbons, but not any that take up valuable design space.

    As a healing feature, healer feat seems perfect.

    I agree that the ranger should have a pretty significant subclass.

    I'm glad you are conscious of your shortcomings, this makes your insight all the more valuable.

    @Arkhios - Post #3
    The 1/3 druid subclass seems like a real possibility, as does using the fighter progression. Fighters get a lot of features from subclasses, which is exactly what the ranger needs.

    @Fnissalot - Post #4
    I agree that proper design goals and main feature for the class and SOME consistency between subclasses is important. I don't think the terrain part is important. Ritual casting seems like a good way to give the player more power over his character's utility contribution. Some new rituals added to the druid spell list would make this even more enticing.

    @Kane0 - Post #5 and 7
    I like paladinn, he deserves a class to be made for him.

    Stealth, Tracking and Healing are secondary features, and could even be reduced to "choose one".

    Combat Feature at level 1 seems like a good idea, but like other classes you could introduce a complementary feature at level 2 or 3.

    Subclass starting at level 2 seems great. But like I said before, the subclass placement should be decided with the complexity of the class in mind.

    I like the distinction between Ranger+, Beastmaster and 1/3 druid.

    An improved version in the mid levels might also gain that die to use in saving throws, subclasses could change the damage type, share that die with an ally or trade that die to raise AC or resist damage taken. Maybe at later levels free up that bonus action too.


    This seems perfect to me. Adding the accuracy buff is a nice touch. I don't know if this is the exact feature we want. I'm more a fan of multiple complementary features. It's rare to see a class with only one feature contributing to its main function (such as damage output). I don't know if connecting them all to one feature is the right way to go, since standalone features might be simpler and easier to change after-the-fact to fine-tune the powerlevel. I think having it trigger on an attack is much better than 'free' or bonus action. Marking on attack encourages the ranger to focus a single target, which is something that has always been the core of any ranger (no matter how people decide to dress it).

    @paladinn - Post #9
    Getting additional defense against your marked or focused target is very thematic, and can be added as a defensive feature at any level it is deemed appropriate.
    I will re-mention the 'choose one' mechanic mentioned above, since it would allow you to prioritize which of the tracking, stealth and healing mechanic you receive first. Then you can choose another one later. This increases the 'target audience' significantly, since different people have different assumptions about the ranger.

    Limited wildshaping would be cool. Add some spells to the druid spell list?

    The Robin Hood archetype is the 'Ranger+' subclass, and I don't like superiority dice either.

    ----------------------

    With all this in mind I feel like I have to summarize

    Focus / Quarry / Mark mechanic that rewards you for targeting a single big threat. This would mean after you make an attack against a creature, it is marked for your next attack.
    Starting Out Simple is a good goal for any class. The ranger especially. A homebrewed ranger, even more so.
    Significant Subclass are needed, since we don't want the 1/3rd Druid to be an auto-pick. The other subclasses have to be designed specifically to keep up with the spell progression.
    Ranger+ which just makes the ranger MORE ranger.
    Beastmaster I guess would grant the ranger benefits for hitting an enemy adjacent to his companion. This creates the flavor of the animal helping, even though it's not using an action. 4e did this with the Sentinel. The animals had a "5 foot aura" that affected either allies or enemies within the aura.
    1/3rd Druid is a perfect way to round out the options and is a great nod to the rangers of earlier editions. Becomes even more flavorful with a couple of new Druid spells and rituals.
    1d8 Hit Dice gives us more design space, and allows us to make up for the lower HP with a cool defensive feature, like damage reduction against your focus' attacks.
    Choose One: Stealth, Terrain/Tracking or Healing
    . You can choose one more at level x and another at level y. This would allow a player to have HIS favourite ranger mechanic come online asap without costing any additional design space.
    Skills and Skill List Goes a long way to get the ranger flavor you need.
    A Single Expertise. Helps the player decide whether he his the Stealth ranger, the Medicine ranger, the Athletics ranger etc etc. It's doesn't take much design space, but having one expertise really helps the player identify heavily with that specific skill. It's all about managing expectations and invoking the right feeling.
    Ritual Casting might take too much design space, but it's a good idea.
    Defensive Feature revolving around your Focus / Mark / Quarry is very thematic, and can be added either as a standalone feature or compensated for with the 1d8 hit dice.
    Nature / Travel / Thematic Ribbons will tie everything together nicely and really cement the type of ranger you are creating. A lot of people underestimate ribbons, but don't see the value of communicating what kind of expectations the player might have from a class. You should be able to tell a lot about a class by just reading its main feature and ribbons.
    Rerolling Attacks is a nice and thematic Action Surge knock-off, which allows you to scale the Quarry Damage without having to worry about bounded accuracy.
    Senses is a definite pick for a class feature, especially since we there is precedent for it.

    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-08-19 at 06:22 PM.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Okay so for now lets lock in the actionless mark at level 1 with an improvement at level 11, we can figure specific numbermath at a later stage. Limit it to one target at a time but you can mark with every attack (which means any followup attack applies the extra damage during the same turn using Extra Attack or TWF).

    TWF should certainly be a valid option, but not the default. Same goes for archery and any other weapon style for that matter.

    Okay so for now lets lock in the actionless mark at level 1 with an improvement at level 11, we can figure specific numbermath at a later stage

    Subclasses don't have a universal structure but they will usually start at level 3 with a feature at 6-7 and 10-11 at the minimum. There are outliers all over the place. I took the level 2 suggestion because that fits well with half-progression spellcasting in subclass form, whereas starting at level 3 would fit best with one-third progression casting ala EK and AT.

    A ranged combat subclass I would leave until after we finalize the initial three, same goes for a stealth focus, traps or planewalker concepts. Lets not get too ambitious to begin with and leave ourselves some room to expand at a later date.

    So in order to start molding these features and fitting them in we're going to need some idea of what is important and what isn't. I'll edit in an initial suggestion to the table and gather some feedback on it?


    Edit:
    @Bjarkmundur, that's some great starting ground, give me a little bit and I'll start fleshing out the table. At this point I'm swayed on 1/3 casting but we'll see how it pans out.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-08-19 at 05:58 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Iceland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Subclasses don't have a universal structure but they will usually start at level 3 with a feature at 6-7 and 10-11 at the minimum. There are outliers all over the place. I took the level 2 suggestion because that fits well with half-progression spellcasting in subclass form, whereas starting at level 3 would fit best with one-third progression casting ala EK and AT.

    A ranged combat subclass I would leave until after we finalize the initial three, same goes for a stealth focus, traps or planewalker concepts. Lets not get too ambitious to begin with and leave ourselves some room to expand at a later date.

    So in order to start molding these features and fitting them in we're going to need some idea of what is important and what isn't. I'll edit in an initial suggestion to the table and gather some feedback on it?
    1. Wait what? A subclass granting 1/2 progression? Does that leave ANY design space for the rest of the class? Doesn't that put a lot of pressure on the other subclasses being just as powerful? Maybe not, I'm just worried.

    2. As long as no features specify ranged or melee weapon, both should work just fine, no? I see we are not focusing on mobility, but more single-target oriented ranger. This should work fine for whatever weapon you choose, no?

    3. Edited my first post. Please check out that last part <3

    Edit Swayed to 1/3rd? What does that even mean? My english is not good enough to know if you're moving towards, away from or simply listening to Dean Martin :O
    Edit the 2nd. 1/2 progression maybe isn't all bad, seeing how there's no Smite mechanic. I'm still not sure... It's all really dependent on subclass balance.
    Edit the 3rd: I saw you added fighting styles and base proficiencies. I'm not entirely sure how much space you have to work with, but doesn't sheld and fighting style both take up design space that might be better served for making the subclasses stronger (the 1/2 progression you talked about) or some of the base features? It's not that they don't work, I'm just suggesting they be tagged as non-essential features, in case you ever have to cut something to make space for a more significant feature. The animal companion is a pretty big feature, design space wise, so I'm thinking you're need every millimeter we can get to make the iconic features feel ri
    ght. I'm guessing this is meant to make the ranger more paladin like (fighter-druid instead of fighter-cleric). You didn't mention any design goals, but if this is one of the goals, a shield and a fighting style gets you a lot of the way there. It's one of those cases where you have to critique based on intentions.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-08-19 at 06:59 PM.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2018

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I would still push for D10 HD. Even if the ranger isn't a fighter subclass, s/he is still a fighter first and foremost. If s/he gets a fighting style, s/he is a fighter. Please keep the D10. Ranged combat is an option for the class, but doesn't need to be the default. A frontline class should have D10.

    I'm actually liking how this is shaping up. Kane0, you may have changed my mind on the ranger being its own class! And here I was even looking to make the paladin a fighter sub (again).

    I'm looking at the scout rogue class now. I personally think some of this can be folded into our new, improved ranger. The ambush master feature seems like if c/should be worked into the ranger's quarry feature. I admit, I have no qualms about "raiding" the scout for some ranger stuff: the ranger was here first!

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Wait what? A subclass granting 1/2 progression? Does that leave ANY design space for the rest of the class? Doesn't that put a lot of pressure on the other subclasses being just as powerful? Maybe not, I'm just worried.

    Swayed to 1/3rd? What does that even mean? My english is not good enough to know if you're moving towards, away from or simply listening to Dean Martin :O

    1/2 progression maybe isn't all bad, seeing how there's no Smite mechanic. I'm still not sure... It's all really dependent on subclass balance.

    I saw you added fighting styles and base proficiencies. I'm not entirely sure how much space you have to work with, but doesn't shieldand fighting style both take up design space that might be better served for making the subclasses stronger (the 1/2 progression you talked about) or some of the base features?

    You didn't mention any design goals, but if this is one of the goals, a shield and a fighting style gets you a lot of the way there. It's one of those cases where you have to critique based on intentions.
    Sorry what I mean is that the decision between half casting and one-third casting is undecided right now. There are benefits and complications both ways.

    Shield proficiency isn't a big deal but I can be cut if push comes to shove. I don't really think it will come to that though. Fighting style is

    My goals in this case are primarily modeled straight from Paladinn
    Spoiler: Length
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    "What is a ranger to you?" Being an OSR grognard at heart, I'd say a ranger is a fighter, first and foremost, especially able to survive and thrive in the wild, to guide those who aren't so able, to be sort of the "bridge" between civilization and wilderness. Part of that is to be able to effectively defend against the enemies of such civilization.

    "What are the mechanical and thematic elements you find important?" See above. A ranger should be the toughest cuss in any group. A "normal" fighter can only keep up by virtue of training and weapon skill. Tracking has always been a constant for rangers. I'd say animal handling as well. Stealth. Maybe natural healing.
    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    Ok, I have a little time, so I thought I'd explain my thought processes on this. Please forgive if this ends up being a novella.

    I've played and DM'ed D&D since B/X, and am familiar with every version from OD&D to 5e. The OD&D ranger (from the Strategic Review) was heavily modeled on Aragorn, and tried to replicate the kinds of things he did in LotR. Rangers were fighters, first and foremost. Fighters didn't get ASI's or feats or weapon specialization back then; they just got tougher, hit better and harder as they leveled-up. Paladins were D&D-official with the Greyhawk suppliment; they also were fighters, but had better saves, protection from evil, healing, detect evil and "dispel evil" (and No spells), and were very difficult to qualify for. Rangers had many "favored enemies" (any humanoids or giants), tracking ability, surprise ability, and the ability to use ESP/scrying items (probably due to Aragorn using a palantir). They could also cast cleric and magic-user spells (there were no druids then, and Aragorn did a little healing and was ok against the ringwraiths).

    Over the years, in 1e-3x, rangers morphed a lot. They way they were envisioned seemed to vacilate between a rogue/fighter hybrid, a junior druid, a beastmaster, the default archery class or a two-weapon fighter, none of which really fit the Aragorn mold. I know that, for many, Drizzt has become the modern model for a ranger; but other than using the 2 scimitars, I'm not sure how well the class even fits the Drizzt mold.

    With all that said, here are what I would think to be the essentials of a ranger class, if it is to be a "class:

    1. Fighting style. This has typically leaned toward archery or 2-weapon, but Aragorn was neither. I would allow any weapon style, including Aragorn's great-weapon style.

    2. Tracking. This should be a no-brainer. I would include some abilities to detect the presence of creatures in the area. Aragorn's "ear-to-the-ground" thing comes to mind.

    3. Nature abilities. Survival, animal handling, woodland stride. If a "favored terrain" is used, it should grant a resistance of some sort (cold, heat, etc.)

    4. Stealth. This should not be equivalent to a rogue's abilities, but greater than what a fighter would normally get. Surprise, hide, vanish, evasion, maybe dodge.

    5. Enhanced senses. BECMI (the VotPA "druidic knight") gave danger sense. Some ability to fight unseen enemies.

    6. Combat ability. Either let "favored enemies" include all humanoids and giants, as in OD&D/1e, or change to some version of hunter's mark. Bonus to hit and AC, and possibly to saves due to "knowing your enemy".

    I would argue that all this would make a decent "main class", and wouldn't even need spells to be effective. I Don't know what archetypes would be good, other than maybe beastmaster. I would also suggest that, if these things are Not present, a ranger would do better as a fighter subclass. The extra ASI's and more extra attacks would greatly benefit a ranger. And if druid spells are wanted, make it like the EK and use the druid spell list.

    More than $.02 worth, but there you have it.


    D10 hit die is easy to manage, we just have to balance any defensive features around that. Example being Rogue's Uncanny Dodge, won't be able to to that extreme.

    Oh no, please no Paladin subclasses, we already have the Cavalier!

    One class gettting a piece of another class' pie in subclass form is fine, just like we have bladesinger wizards, valor bards, etc. A bit of give and take to provide multiple angles at character concepts.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Iceland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Aww man, I was hoping that pointless 'alert when travelling' wouldn't be used >. <

    We have such cool scout abilities to draw inspiration from, why use the boring one? I mean, look at what 4e managed to do.

    Ranger Wilderness Knacks from 4e
    You gain two of the following abilities of your choice.


    Ambush Expertise (Ranger)
    Whenever you make a Stealth check, each ally within 10 squares of you gains a +2 bonus to his or her next Stealth check before the end of your next turn.


    Beast Empathy (Ranger)
    You gain a +2 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks against beasts. You can communicate simple concepts and commands to such creatures, though they are under no compulsion to obey you. With a successful Insight check (DC determined by the DM), you can read a creature’s body language and vocalizations enough to understand basic messages from it.


    Mountain Guide (Ranger)
    Whenever you succeed on an Athletics check to climb, you reduce the DC of that climb by 2 for your allies until the end of the encounter. Only allies who see you make the climb gain this benefit.


    Watchful Rest (Ranger)
    When you take an extended rest, you and any allies also taking the rest do not take the -5 penalty to Perception checks for sleeping.


    Wilderness Tracker (Ranger)
    During a short rest, you can make a Perception check (DC determined by the DM) to inspect the area around you. This area can be as large as 10 squares on a side. If your check succeeds, you determine the number and nature of the creatures that have moved through the area in the past 24 hours. You ascertain when and where they entered the area, as well as when and where they left.

    ------------------------------

    Isn't that much more personal than a throwaway bonus? This makes you feel like the one guiding your friends through the untamed wilderness, by granting bonuses if you go first.

    I can easily imagine additional Knacks being able to tend a wounded ally or make rests more effective.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-08-20 at 03:27 AM.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Because it’s a ribbon, and I’m starting simple at level 1 just like you said :P

    Edit: on my phone right now but basically the extra move speed is the meat of that ability. The ability to retain your passive perception while doing something else during travel means you can do twice as much as any other class without actually handing out bonuses or removing challenges
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-08-20 at 03:40 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Fleshing more things out, checking in to see what people think

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    Oct 2017

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    My quick fix is dump casting and get 1/2 sneak attack progression and an Expertise in Survival and choice of Stealth or Perception. It is a dirty fix but pretty satisfying.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I would change warden to have prepared spells instead of known and the rituals to be from prepared spells instead of the the whole list.

    I think quarry dice should go up to a d12 at level 19 or 20. The endgame damage of the base class is a bit low otherwise currently.

    Beastmasters beast should probably add con mod to that hp. You could maybe also increase the cr from 1/4 to 1/2 or even 1 as you level up in the class.
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2019-08-21 at 12:16 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Ah yes, corrected!

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Iceland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Can you walk us through your decision making progress regarding the Beast's Action Economy?
    I've generally heard that introducing a second set of actions is a big boost. Can you command it to take any action or move using your bonus action, and then it has it's own reaction?

    Do you think you need to specify that a creature doesn't become your quarry until after the first attack on your turn is resolved. If it is read as 'when you target a creature it becomes your quarry', well, then every creature is your quarry by the time you resolve the attack.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-08-21 at 02:54 AM.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Oh, well I figure its not fun to sacrifice your action to get your 'secondary character' to get their turn, but nor is it fair to just hand it over for free. If you can issue commands as a bonus action allowing it to use its action you get the most out of your action economy without the pet feeling as robotic (it can move without you using your actions, plus dodge if you don't issue a command) or playing two full characters to everyone else's one.

    You are correct, however I personally struggle in reading it that way. 'When you attack' means you have to attack for it to happen, and I didn't write 'when you declare that you intend to attack'. It's the kind of wordplay I've seen argued over with the shield master feat and such, it's valid if you want to be that pedantic about it but at that point I think you're beyond the 'having a conversation around a table' usage.
    Anyway I digress, i'll clean up the wording yes.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-08-21 at 04:48 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Aug 2019

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I realy feel like you guys are on to something here.

    Now, I registered on the forum just to be part of this conversation, so I'm not particularly experienced in creating or balancing homebrew. Bearing that in mind, I thought I might be able to give some inputs?:

    For the Nature 1 feature, how about adding the following (idea stolen from The Focused Ranger by DracoDruid)?
    Guide. You can guide the travel for a group of up to six creatures. While guided by you, your group can move stealthily while traveling at a normal pace and difficult terrain doesn't slow your group's travel.

    And/or maybe advantage on survival, nature & perception checks that deal with wilderness traveling. This would then work in tandem with the expertise at lvl 5, if you chose one of those skills.

    Speaking of the lvl 5 expertise: I'm guessing that you would keep it at expertise in two skills? Or would you get more at an even higher lvl, like the rogue does?

    For the Selectable II healing salve option (idea stolen from the Unity Ranger):
    How about making it act like lesser restoration instead? That would make the wording quite simple. Or even "act like lesser restoration or remove a level of exhaustion"? Since exhaustion is a big part of wilderness traveling (in my campaign anyway).

    For the lvl 20 cap, how about this feature (also stolen from The Focused Ranger):
    Deadly Mark. Any attack roll you make against a target marked as your quarry is a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20.
    Killing Blow. When you hit a target market as your quarry with an attack, you can choose to let your mark vanish after the attack. If you do, the attack deals an additional 7d12 damage to the target. You can't use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

    Since the Hunter subclass is missing a few features, what about this (from Hedges and Highways by Jonathan Dupree):
    Ambush Expertise. You can use the Help action to give all allies within 30 feet of you advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks. You and each of friendly creature with 30 feet that can see you deals an additional 1d8 damage against any creature that is surprised. The additional damage from this feature increases by 1d8 if you have the Additional Wilderness Knacks feature.

    I feel like that would be quite thematic for a hunter that stalks his prey. Though I'm unsure of how powerful it is.

    For the Hunter's defensive feature, why not use one of the defensive features from the PHB (defensive tactics/superior hunter's defense)?


    /cheers

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

    Join Date
    Jan 2018

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Ah, Ranger rebuilds. I made a go at one a while back, though I was only happy with some bits of it.

    At first glance, I like the approach used here. Standard non-caster framework with a caster subclass. Whether or not a ranger is better as a caster or non-caster always seems to be a point of contention, so basing the casting aspect on Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster type design seems a good compromise. It just brings up issues of spell balance, if the highest casting level is 3 instead of 5.

    Not yet having read the previous thread, a few things I'd look for:

    Not being so heavily locked into "natural environment" approaches that an "urban ranger" is difficult to implement. One notable type of this would be the Bounty Hunter, which seems like it would fit in nicely with the Hunter subclass.

    Search as a bonus action feels like something that should come early in the class, not late. It fits most of the archtypes' concepts. Ranger feels like Perception first, Stealth second; the opposite of the Rogue. Nice to see that at level 3.

    Ranged attacks feel natural for all subclasses, though most would likely use bows, whereas the Bounty Hunter would more likely use crossbows (or guns, if available).


    Base Abilities

    Quarry: Seems good. Takes a bunch from Cavalier's Unwavering Mark and Warding Maneuver. UM and WM, however, are limited in uses per day. Might be simpler to use UM's "when you hit a creature" condition, rather than the potentially confusing, "when you attack a creature".

    Another alternative could be, "Once per turn, before you make any attacks, you may designate a target as your quarry." This avoids using a bonus action to designate the target (as with Hunter's Mark) so it won't impact dual wield, while also preventing switching quarry mid-turn. It also seems much simpler than trying to mix it with attack actions, though may be abusable with Dodge + Quarry for defense (though whether that's a bad thing is debatable).

    As specified in the OP, you can designate it after one attack, and it lasts til the end of the next turn, so would affect remaining attacks, plus attacks made the next turn. Defense-wise, it interacts with movement and opportunity attacks, so the initiation and duration matters.

    I would probably also add a caveat for being able to see the quarry. If you're blinded, random attacks shouldn't give you Quarry bonuses.

    Also, does it need to specify a weapon attack? Are magic attacks valid ways to mark a quarry? I guess Sorcerer/Ranger should work, casting Fire Bolts? It says that your weapon attacks deal extra damage, but doesn't say you need to use a weapon to mark the target.

    Also, what type of damage is the extra 1d4? OP doesn't say, but I'd assume it should be of the same type as the originating attack. It designates it as being restricted to weapon attacks, so it won't give bonus damage to a Sorcerer/Ranger's Fire Bolts? How does it interact with something like Booming Blade? Would a Shadow Blade deal an extra 1d4 psychic damage?

    So something like:

    "Once per turn, after making a weapon attack [alt: an attack] against a creature you can see, you may designate that creature as your Quarry. This effect lasts until the end of your next turn, or until you mark a different Quarry.

    When you make a weapon attack [alt: an attack] against a marked Quarry, you deal an extra 1d4 damage of the same type as your attack. This damage increases at higher levels according to the progression table."


    Nature I: I like it. Very simple, but manages to do what Favored Environment failed to do with all its complexity.

    Selectable I: I'm conflicted on the Invisible when using Hide bit. It only works as long as you don't move, which is great, but it's also basically Hide in Plain Sight (without the stupid complexity), which was originally level 10. How strong is invisibility when you're not moving? How does that affect perception checks against you? How much can this be abused by a rogue taking a 2-level dip in ranger?

    Also, while it's implied, I'd probably be explicit in adding: "or until you take an action that would otherwise break invisibility."

    Other than that, I like the healing salves, and I like the "ignore non-magical difficult terrain" options. The former is great for a support type, and the latter for a pursuit type (probably combined with the climbing speed option in Nature I).

    Senses II: Takes Feral Senses and brings it down to a more reasonable level.

    Nature II: Removes need for most of the Freedom of Movement spell, which in turn reduces the need for spellcasting above 3rd level.


    Hunter

    Hunter covers the general idea of either a monster hunter or a bounty hunter. IE: Wilderness ranger or urban ranger. I expect a focus on tracking, searching, investigating, etc, plus strong finishing moves for a fight.

    Quarry Bonus: I'd probably rewrite as:

    "A creature you have marked as your Quarry provokes opportunity attacks if it moves at least 5' while within your reach."

    Another possible option: The ability to mark a quarry without making an attack, if the target is surprised. While I put this in the Hunter section, it could conceivably be added to the base class options.

    Ribbon: I'd probably grant a bonus proficiency — one out of Investigation, Perception, or Survival — along with a tool proficiency of the player's choice. The skill is primarily for tracking (any of the three could work, depending on GM and/or character), and the tools give some flexibility in character style.

    Terrain Adaption: Nice defensive utility, using the flavor of Favored Environment without the clumsiness.

    Multiattack: The Quarry effect lasts one turn. Multiattack allows you to mark multiple targets as Quarries, but you're limited in how many of those creatures you can target on the next turn's action. Thus you could fire a volley at a group, and then the next turn pick off a couple specific targets as they ran away from the AOE zone. At first it felt overpowered, but it might be somewhat reasonable.


    Beastmaster

    Utility (7) Possible idea: You may use an action to order your companion to make two attacks against a specified target. Basically, give up your attack (which has Extra Attack by this point) to give the companion two attacks, in addition to its Bonus Action attack. This will do less damage than you likely could, but could provide unique tactical options.

    Also, there should be actions the companion can take when the ranger is unconscious. Something like:

    "If you fall unconscious, your companion will abandon previous orders and move to protect your body, staying within 5' of you. It will use its action to attack any enemy that approaches within attack range of its movement. (IE: It stays in the 5' radius around you, and thus attacks any enemies that come within 10' radius of you.) Any attempts to attack your unconscious body have disadvantage."

    This allows the player to still "act", within a limited scope, while unconscious, and seems an appropriate bonus for having a companion that's explicitly there to watch your back.


    Warden

    Looks like a fine starting point. It's a bit more difficult to evaluate because of how spells integrate, but the abilities seem appropriate.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Ah, lots to chew through!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxby View Post
    For the Nature 1 feature, how about adding the following (idea stolen from The Focused Ranger by DracoDruid)?
    Guide. You can guide the travel for a group of up to six creatures. While guided by you, your group can move stealthily while traveling at a normal pace and difficult terrain doesn't slow your group's travel.

    And/or maybe advantage on survival, nature & perception checks that deal with wilderness traveling. This would then work in tandem with the expertise at lvl 5, if you chose one of those skills.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Nature I: I like it. Very simple, but manages to do what Favored Environment failed to do with all its complexity.
    I'm loathe to add anything extra, it's already two distinct benefits at level 1. Glad that it succeeds at its intent though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxby View Post
    Speaking of the lvl 5 expertise: I'm guessing that you would keep it at expertise in two skills? Or would you get more at an even higher lvl, like the rogue does?
    Expertise in two with no extras after that. Emphasises that you are more skilled than Fighters and Barbarians but less so than Rogues and Bards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxby View Post
    For the Selectable II healing salve option (idea stolen from the Unity Ranger):
    How about making it act like lesser restoration instead? That would make the wording quite simple. Or even "act like lesser restoration or remove a level of exhaustion"? Since exhaustion is a big part of wilderness traveling (in my campaign anyway).
    I've been of the opinion that Lesser Restoration should take away one level of exhaustion anyways, so that works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxby View Post
    For the lvl 20 cap, how about this feature (also stolen from The Focused Ranger):
    Deadly Mark. Any attack roll you make against a target marked as your quarry is a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20.
    Killing Blow. When you hit a target market as your quarry with an attack, you can choose to let your mark vanish after the attack. If you do, the attack deals an additional 7d12 damage to the target. You can't use this feature again until you finish a long rest.
    I've actually been tossing up a set amount of extra damage (say, 50) plus a condition like blinded, deafened or poisoned with no save for a turn. Crits on 19 appears elsewhere twice and both at level 1.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    So something like:
    "Once per turn, after making an attack against a creature you can see, you may designate that creature as your Quarry. This effect lasts until the end of your next turn, or until you mark a different Quarry.

    When you make an attack against a marked Quarry, you deal an extra 1d4 damage of the same type as the attack attack. This damage increases at higher levels according to the progression table."
    Ah yes, that's some clean wording. I intended for it to be usable with spell attacks to differentiate it from Sneak Attack/Divine Smite and there's the possibility of Ranger spells including attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Selectable I: I'm conflicted on the Invisible when using Hide bit. It only works as long as you don't move, which is great, but it's also basically Hide in Plain Sight (without the stupid complexity), which was originally level 10. How strong is invisibility when you're not moving? How does that affect perception checks against you? How much can this be abused by a rogue taking a 2-level dip in ranger?

    Also, while it's implied, I'd probably be explicit in adding: "or until you take an action that would otherwise break invisibility."

    Other than that, I like the healing salves, and I like the "ignore non-magical difficult terrain" options. The former is great for a support type, and the latter for a pursuit type (probably combined with the climbing speed option in Nature I).
    Invisible is a condition so you're effectively heavily obscured and attacks against you are at disadvantage.
    Yes you're right i'll add in attacking or casting a spell alongside moving too fast.
    A rogue dipping into ranger seems as desirable as a ranger dipping into rogue is now, so mission accomplished I suppose?
    The idea was to make them as desirable as possible next to each other, so that's good that it's a hard decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Quarry Bonus: I'd probably rewrite as:
    "A creature you have marked as your Quarry provokes opportunity attacks if it moves at least 5' while within your reach."
    Again thank you for the cleaner phrasing

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Ribbon: I'd probably grant a bonus proficiency — one out of Investigation, Perception, or Survival — along with a tool proficiency of the player's choice. The skill is primarily for tracking (any of the three could work, depending on GM and/or character), and the tools give some flexibility in character style.

    Multiattack: The Quarry effect lasts one turn. Multiattack allows you to mark multiple targets as Quarries, but you're limited in how many of those creatures you can target on the next turn's action. Thus you could fire a volley at a group, and then the next turn pick off a couple specific targets as they ran away from the AOE zone. At first it felt overpowered, but it might be somewhat reasonable.
    Excellent!
    Yes, best case scenario you could mark a bundle of enemies and then get quarry bonus on them all if they're still alive next turn. 99% of the time this probably won't be better than marking and removing one at a time anyways, but the option is there and you can mix & match the melee/ranged versions as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Beastmaster
    Utility (7) Possible idea: You may use an action to order your companion to make two attacks against a specified target. Basically, give up your attack (which has Extra Attack by this point) to give the companion two attacks, in addition to its Bonus Action attack. This will do less damage than you likely could, but could provide unique tactical options.
    By 'utility' I mean not a direct offensive or defensive combat benefit. To break up the pattern and provide out of combat things plus avoid overloading it with big bonuses, like fighter subclasses at level 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Also, there should be actions the companion can take when the ranger is unconscious. Something like:
    "If you fall unconscious, your companion will abandon previous orders and move to protect your body, staying within 5' of you. It will use its action to attack any enemy that approaches within attack range of its movement. (IE: It stays in the 5' radius around you, and thus attacks any enemies that come within 10' radius of you.) Any attempts to attack your unconscious body have disadvantage."

    This allows the player to still "act", within a limited scope, while unconscious, and seems an appropriate bonus for having a companion that's explicitly there to watch your back.
    Ah yes that would make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Warden

    Looks like a fine starting point. It's a bit more difficult to evaluate because of how spells integrate, but the abilities seem appropriate.
    On that note!
    Conjure Barrage and Lightning Arrow reduced to 2nd level
    Conjure Volley reduced to 3rd level spell dealing 4d8 damage
    Steel Wind Strike reduced to 3rd level spell dealing 4d10 damage
    Swift Quiver reduced to 4th level spell with a casting time of 1 action

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Iceland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    This is slowly but surely becoming my favorite ranger rework out there. It has just so much going for it! Every single time I see an unread reply I panic a little and think "Oh, no, I hope they didn't change their design direction while I was asleep!" xD

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Aug 2019

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    ... Not being so heavily locked into "natural environment" approaches that an "urban ranger" is difficult to implement. One notable type of this would be the Bounty Hunter, which seems like it would fit in nicely with the Hunter subclass...

    Ranged attacks feel natural for all subclasses, though most would likely use bows, whereas the Bounty Hunter would more likely use crossbows (or guns, if available).
    Isn't the urban bounty hunter/urban hunter incapsulated quite well by the rogue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Quarry:
    Another alternative could be, "Once per turn, before you make any attacks, you may designate a target as your quarry." This avoids using a bonus action to designate the target (as with Hunter's Mark) so it won't impact dual wield, while also preventing switching quarry mid-turn. It also seems much simpler than trying to mix it with attack actions, though may be abusable with Dodge + Quarry for defense (though whether that's a bad thing is debatable).
    I must say that one of the things I realy like about this rework is that it doesn't require setup. As in "bonus action, then attack". It feels much more organic to simply attack, and then go from there. The constant "I cast hunter's mark and then take my turn" feels weird to me.


    With the new capstone of "50 dmg" and also with the healing of "+ranger lvl"; isn't it more fun to put some dice as the dmg/healing? Instead of a fixed amount? Also to differentiate the healing more from the paladins lay on hands, which is a fixed pool where you choose how much you heal.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2018

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    This is slowly but surely becoming my favorite ranger rework out there. It has just so much going for it! Every single time I see an unread reply I panic a little and think "Oh, no, I hope they didn't change their design direction while I was asleep!" xD
    Glad Kane0 and I could get the ball rolling on this:) Sorry I haven't checked in an a while, but real life does intrude.

    Soo.. Mr. Kane0.. what is the latest writeup of our reworked ranger?

    I wonder if we can sell it to WotC. Heck, I'd be willing to do it pro-bono..lol

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

    Join Date
    Jan 2018

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0
    Once per turn, after making an attack against a creature you can see, you may designate that creature as your Quarry. This effect lasts until the end of your next turn, or until you mark a different Quarry.
    Just realized that the way I wrote this means you could change your quarry when making an opportunity attack. I don't know that there's actually enough problem with doing so to worry about it, though. Can prevent it by changing the opening to "Once on your turn", if desired.

    When you make an attack against a marked Quarry, you deal an extra 1d4 damage of the same type as the attack attack. This damage increases at higher levels according to the progression table.
    Typo - duplicate "attack".

    [ribbon] (3)
    You gain proficiency in your choice of Investigation, Perception, or Survival as well as either
    Incomplete text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxby
    Isn't the urban bounty hunter/urban hunter incapsulated quite well by the rogue?
    Not really, in my mind. A rogue can do those things, but just about any class can be stretched to cover most concepts (which is part of the problem that led to the thread that just wants to make ranger a subclass). A guard could be a fighter or a wizard, however the concept of 'guard' is much more in the fighter's domain. A rogue or a barbarian could also be believable fits for that role. But you don't imagine a druid or a sorcerer or a cleric for that concept, despite scenarios where they actually work, because there are a lot more scenarios where the fighter is all that you need.

    In the same way, a bounty hunter fits very well with (my impression of a) ranger. A fighter or rogue could still do it, but they're weaker concept options. For example, the rogue is conceptually very territorial (moreso than most other classes). He might take action against someone in his territory, but is unlikely to travel elsewhere for the same purpose (outside assassination, which is a different concept entirely), which makes him a much weaker fit for the bounty hunter concept. Conversely, the ranger is all about traveling and seeking out quarry. It's just an obvious fit in a way that rogue just doesn't.

    Spoiler: Extra rambling
    Show

    If I were to pull a comparison, I'd look at the hunter characters in the TV show, Supernatural. They investigate rumors, and search out supernatural events, traveling all around the country to find them. They're monster hunters (probably Monster Slayer subclass) rather than bounty hunters, but they're acting in a largely urban environment, and are more rangers than rogues (despite regularly using fake identities). There are obvious parallels, conceptually, and the main difference is just the type of quarry.

    Bounty hunters pull more imagery from old westerns, traveling town to town looking for criminals to defeat and turn in to the law. There's a similarity to the paladin (including an actual character named Paladin in Have Gun, Will Travel) because, as usual, there are no strict lines between character concepts and classes.

    What's the difference between a paladin, a ranger, a rogue, and hired mercenary (fighter) as far as the bounty hunter concept goes? In some sense, not a lot, and from another perspective, a great deal. It's all about how the character class allows you to approach the concept.


    The (PHB) ranger class is the only one that's been strongly locked out of one of the most significant environments of the game — the city. There's been several "urban ranger" write-ups (showing a desire for getting out of the wilderness), but most of what they do is just try to shoehorn the existing skills into urban variants (which leads to the same problems ranger already has even without considering the urban aspect).

    Most classes are agnostic enough about the issue that you could easily switch where they fit in. This rewrite strips away most of the aspects that tie ranger down in that way, which gives it the freedom to be a bit more fluid in the wilderness-urban setting decision. And one of the easiest fits for an urban-focused ranger is putting his talents in hunting towards a relatively common need. There's just an obvious suitability there.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxby View Post
    With the new capstone of "50 dmg" and also with the healing of "+ranger lvl"; isn't it more fun to put some dice as the dmg/healing? Instead of a fixed amount? Also to differentiate the healing more from the paladins lay on hands, which is a fixed pool where you choose how much you heal.
    It's a balancing act, a static number is reliable but rolling dice is fun. Sometimes you want the certainty that a strike will ruin someone's day rain, hail or shine. Even crits can be disappointing.

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinn View Post
    Glad Kane0 and I could get the ball rolling on this:) Sorry I haven't checked in an a while, but real life does intrude.

    Soo.. Mr. Kane0.. what is the latest writeup of our reworked ranger?

    I wonder if we can sell it to WotC. Heck, I'd be willing to do it pro-bono..lol
    I know the feel, but i'm slowly adding items into the first post. As usual the biggest hurdle is appropriate names (any 'brewers nightmare).
    Oh trust me, greater and more successful minds than mine have tried. WotC are adamant when it comes to this kind of thing, they keep that barrier between their work and 3rd parties well maintained. Probably because it would open the floodgates if they did take fan work in any way, even just credited.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •