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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    We have had very clear and decisive design goals for every minute derail of this build. Every single letter has been added with clear intent and purpose.

    What's the design goal of including fighting styles? What do the fighting styles add that no other feature could?

    If what they bring to the class is the feeling of specialisation and build versatility, I'm pretty sure we can make a better feature that more accurately takes into account the synergies and nuisances of how the class plays as a whole. Something specifically designed with this class in mind, that accounts for all its varius features strengths and shortcomings.

    Adding this feature so late in the class' design gives us a unique opportunity to tweak different aspects of the class to ensure it works as intended, without having to rewriter features that otherwise work perfectly.

    We can take this chance to identify problems and use this design space to address them specifically, instead of arbitrarily adding a feature from another class.

    The position of Keen Eye on the class table feels trivial in comparison.

    Sidenot: Since extra attack is an indirect scaling of Hunter's quarry, the 1d4 is not needed. the Quarry dice should be 1d6 from levels 1-8.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-09-08 at 09:01 PM.

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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    It was one of Paladinn's touchstones earmarking the Ranger as a warrior type class, same as the d10 hit die. It also leans into the archery, TWF, etc styles that it has picked up over the editions.

    I like Fighting Styles, I find them an elegant way of providing choice and distinction. No need to reinvent the wheel when this does the job and is used in multiple other places.

    That said, Barbarians don't have FS so there is precedent both ways.

    Edit: Minor note though, it's always been there in the class table like Extra Attack/ASIs, just not written explicitly underneath since it was unchanged from the PHB.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-09-08 at 09:03 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Then at least use them as written in the PHB.

    ---------------------------

    I'm still, worried how much they increase the gap between melee and range, discouraging players even more from using a bow on a Ranger.

    That last part kinda hurt to write. Discouraging the ranger from using a weapon that has been used for hunting since before recorded human history feels all sorts of wrong, but maybe I am yet again just falling prey to a "my ranger" mindset.

    ----------------------------

    Edit! I figured out what was troubling me with the fighting styles!

    The ranger is not a Strength class!

    The fighting styles would feel much more at home here if this were designed as a Strength class. But since it is not, the fighting styles which serve the Fighter and the paladin so well just aren't going to feel natural here.

    For a class relying on TWF and medium armor, the fighting styles are always going to fall short compared any other feature we design unique for the class' traits.

    Medium Armor and Quarry just don't benefit from fighting styles like Heavy Armor and Smite/Surge does. At best it's a small nod to th rangers heritage (was was debunked a few posts ago), at worst it doesn't synergies with the ranger's features at all.

    We need a feature that gives unique benefits to each loadout, similar to the design goal of fighting styles, yes. I can agree to that. But this cannot be done by copying and pasting a feature that is not designed to work with this class main features.

    -----------------------------

    Hunting Styles
    You adopt a particular style of hunting your prey as your specialty. Choose one of the following options. You cant take a Hunting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.
    - You can mark a creature as your Quarry as a bonus action.
    - You can use non light weapons when two-weapon fighting
    - Your Animal Companion benefits from your Quarry damage bonus.
    - When a creature your Animal Companion can see attacks a target other than it that is within 5 feet of it, it can use its reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll.
    - While wearing a green hat with a single feather, you gain +1 AC.

    The first bullets encourages using shields or two handed weapons equally, and fixes most of the classes weapon versatility problems.
    The second bullet is thematic, without making TWF too strong when compared to shield or 2H (yeah, rangers can use shields, remember. Now they can do so without feeling ridiculous).
    The other two represent the different bonds between the ranger and his companion, and adds an opportunity cost for having such a powerful animal companion. These are all problems with the class, and it's a miracle they can be solved so cleanly.
    The last bullet is hilarious and non-negotiable xP

    You can even give thrown weapon some love and bring back Throw and Stab for earlier editions, although it is pretty unorthodox

    - If you throw a weapon using the Thrown property to engage in two-weapon fighting and make a melee attack with your secondary attack, you have advange on the melee attack roll.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-09-08 at 10:23 PM.

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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    I'm still, worried how much they increase the gap between melee and range, discouraging players even more from using a bow on a Ranger.

    ----------------------------

    Edit! I figured out what was troubling me with the fighting styles!
    The ranger is not a Strength class!

    -----------------------------

    Hunting Styles
    You adopt a particular style of hunting your prey as your specialty. Choose one of the following options. You cant take a Hunting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.
    - You can mark a creature as your Quarry as a bonus action.
    - You can use non light weapons when two-weapon fighting
    - Your Animal Companion benefits from your Quarry damage bonus.
    - When a creature your Animal Companion can see attacks a target other than it that is within 5 feet of it, it can use its reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll.
    - While wearing a green hat with a single feather, you gain +1 AC.
    Ranged weapons aren't given any bonuses or penalties over other weapon styles within the class, what am I missing that gives melee preference?

    Neither is Swords Bard, and besides heavy armor proficiency there isn't anything making Pally str based over dex.

    Point one is covered with the TWF feat (flawed as it is), point two see below, point three that's already part of the beastmaster as a defensive feature.


    Eyeballing things as they are now, I think I'm being a bit too generous with the damage output. Can someone do some quick numbers compared to some of the other classes? If it indeed turns out overtuned I'm thinking take away the damage boosts at level 3 (Hunter second Quarry die, Beastmaster quarry die, Warden Hunter's Mark)

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Interlude on damage potential.

    Here's a link to the Google Docs spreadsheet that I built. (This is just a copy of the one I'm editing locally.)

    Basic assumptions:
    +1 weapon gained at level 7
    +2 weapon gained at level 14
    Dual-wielding uses d6 weapons; otherwise use d8 weapons
    Level 11 Quarry reroll accounted for. Subclass features not accounted for.
    Examining average damage against AC 12, 15, 18, and 20.
    Crits were not accounted for because I forgot. They shouldn't be significant enough to affect the first pass review.


    The shift in average damage output when you add Dueling or Archery fighting styles is minimal. Archery fighting style is kinda pointless on average, since when it's beneficial, the average damage is still about the same as the Dueling style, but Dueling has higher potential once your attack potential raises above the to-hit cap. The main use for the Archery style would be to combine it with the Sharpshooter feat.

    Dueling has about a 25% boost at level 2, gradually fading down to about a 12% boost at level 20, across all ACs.

    Archery ranges from a 15% to 33% boost at level 2 (the higher the target AC, the higher the boost), fading to 0% to 10% by level 20. You start hitting to-hit caps against low-AC creatures about level 10.

    Notice that I've left out dual wielding so far. That's because dual wielding horribly skews the balance. Dual wielding starts off basically doubling your damage (once you get the fighting style at level 2; at level 1 it's only +70%), and gradually fades to a mere +40% to +50% by level 20.

    This is partially due to just having an extra attack per round, but is largely carried by the Quarry bonus damage. The Dueling fighting style only grants +2 damage per hit, whereas the Quarry damage scales with level, averaging +6.5 damage per hit at level 20. Dual wielding gives you an extra attack at the cost of reducing the weapon damage die, so you get 3d6 instead of 2d8, which, on its own, is a 1.5 damage increase. The Two-weapon fighting style allows you to add your attack stat to the damage, which is another +3 to +5 damage. And then Quarry stacks on top of that for another +2.5 to +6.5 damage.

    A single attack round at level 10 with Quarry in full effect (to make the comparison simpler), 18 Dex (finesse weapon), and +1 weapons allows for:
    Base ranger = 28 damage
    Archery ranger = 28 damage
    Dueling ranger = 32 damage
    TWF ranger = 39 damage

    TWF is 30% above baseline and 20% above Dueling. (It gains a bit more once you factor in the initial hit to mark a Quarry.)

    If you get rid of the attack stat damage (ie: remove the fighting style bonus), it drops to 35 damage. If you drop the Quarry damage, it drops further to 30.5, which is more in line with the other styles, and only slightly above baseline.

    As things currently stand, we need to at least remove Quarry damage from bonus attacks, to keep dual wielding from completely overshadowing other combat styles. There are other rules in the game that only allow adding damage once per turn (eg: Sneak Attack), likely to help minimize this type of disparity. If we do go that route on the phrasing, I'd probably allow Hunter to gain the Quarry damage up to twice per turn. Beastmaster already gets the chance at two per turn, using the beast to attack. Warden gets Hunter's Mark as extra bonus damage, which would seem to balance out in a similar way.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Interesting. If it's easy for you to calculate, how does TWF Quarry stack up against other forms of BA attack like the Beastmaster and PAM fighter/barb/pally?

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    A bunch of small things/comments.

    For most other classes two-weapon fighting tends to have low damage in tier 4. Not counting to hit, you should on average do more damage a turn. Barbarians get this through crit damage increases and rage bonuses. Paladins through smites. Rogues through sneak attack. Fighters through their many attacks. If non-twf hunters are that low on damage. That damage is too low, and you shouldn't try to decrease the twf damage. Hunter needs something to boost their ranged damage. Either give hunters some kind of bonus action increase to damage or make the first attack on each turn do a lot more damage if it hits.

    Edit version 1:
    Aimed takedown:
    Hunters level 3 feature
    As an bonus action, the first time you hit this turn adds 2 bonus quarry dice to the damage.

    Edit version 2:
    Aimed takedown
    Hunters level 3 feature
    The first attack on your turn adds two bonus quarry dice to the damage if the attacks hits.

    Hunters mark and swift quiver makes this not an issue for wardens and the beast solves it for beastmasters.

    The reason for 4hp per hit die is that monsters/NPCs rounds down on rolling and doesn't get a full die as their first. I am not saying that we should do it, but I assume that was the logic for the way it was written.

    Also, I think it should have generic fighting styles as it is a normal martial class still. The class can benefit from enough of them that it is worth it.
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2019-09-09 at 12:47 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Spent some time fixing and tweaking the spreadsheet model. Made sure crits were accounted for, and fixed some errors.

    For TWF:

    At level 2, it's +100% damage without offhand Quarry damage, and +135% damage with offhand Quarry.

    At level 5, it drops to +60% with offhand Quarry damage, and +40% without offhand Quarry. It remains at this level until level 20.


    For Beastmaster:

    Pet: Wolf and Black Bear are basically the same. Using 2d4 for weapon damage, and +2 for stat (Dex for wolf, Str for bear). It uses ranger proficiency. It does not get Quarry re-roll. Did not try to figure in advantage from Pack Tactics.

    The pet's attack is basically a direct replacement for a duel wielding attack, though the ranger maintains the d8 weapon instead of using d6 weapons.

    At level 3, it's +110% without pet Quarry damage, +150% with pet Quarry damage.

    At level 5 without pet Quarry damage, it drops to +40%, and declines to +25%-+30% by level 20.

    At level 5 with pet Quarry damage, it drops to +50%, and declines to +40% by level 20.

    However, that's only if you keep the wolf the entire way through. If you switch up to something like a brown bear at higher levels, it pushes the pet build back up to where dual wielding sits.

    Overall, the two options are on par with each other.



    For the PAM comparison, I just took a Champion fighter with Great Weapon Fighting fighting style.

    Note: I did not attempt to use Action Surge for this comparison, so that would give a small boost to fighter's potential output.

    Without PAM, it works out to very close to the baseline ranger output, varying within about 10% of the ranger baseline either way. Champion starts out a small bit ahead, then drops behind after level 5, then pulls ahead again at level 11. It stays about 5% to 10% ahead, until level 20 where it gets a major boost from quad-attack, putting it 40% ahead of baseline ranger.

    With PAM, starting either at level 1 or 4, the fighter is +100% over the baseline ranger. This drops to +20% at level 5, increases to about +40% at level 11, and then stays there til level 20.


    I'm not going to try to model paladin or barbarian right now.


    Anyway, TWF and Beastmaster pet are pretty comparable, and they're not too different from PAM (with PAM being a little weaker).

    Turning off Quarry damage on offhand and pet damage helps keep things a little more in line, damage-wise.

    Beastmaster has the option to shoot ahead again if it takes Archery plus the Sharpshooter feat, since it's already gaining roughly the benefit of TWF from its pet. This could be an issue.

    ~~~~

    Overall, I'm still inclined to say that Quarry damage shouldn't apply to bonus action attacks (including pet attacks). Especially if Hunter gets to use two Quarry dice per attack; that starts getting crazy when dual wielding, and perhaps picking up Magic Initiate for Hunter's Mark on top of that. It feels like the ranger is a bit overpowered at this point.

    It definitely feels like we need to scale back damage a bit. Probably find other unique ways to make use of the Quarry dice, per subclass.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Did you account for not getting quarry damage on your first attack, and then reduce the damage on the second attack in the cases where the first attack didn't hit?

    But I agree, the damage needs to be adjusted pretty much separately from everything else. Good thing we got the theme pretty well established; we can simply work around it :D

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  10. - Top - End - #130
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I'm doing my own analysis, in a wordier way (DMs kinda make probability math weird, and not completely reliable).

    I started out using Fighting Styles, but TWF quickly became ridiculous. So I though 'OK, I'll just use no styles' but then Shield and Longbow styles just become worse and TWF was still ridiculous. Then I tried using my Hunting Styles. The results were much better! I had done it! Balance was achieved!

    ...Then came Extra Attack, and everything fell apart. I'm still working on this, I'll report back when I'm done.

    What beasts should I be using as a reference for each of the CRs?

    -----------------------
    These are the changes I've made while figuring these out. Each of these changes were made reactively after looking at each level individually. Nothing was changed unless it was deemed absolutely necessary. Like before, ever single letter was carefully placed, trying to keep the class as true to itself as possible. Brick by brick, level by level.

    Base Class
    Extra Attack moved to level 11.
    Quarry doesn't scale beyond 1d6 (yet)
    No Fighting Styles
    Use Hunting Styles instead


    • Quick-Mark: You can mark a creature as your Quarry as a bonus action.
    • Savage Attacker: Your animal companion can trigger your Quarry damage bonus.
    • Protection: Animal Companion has Defensive Fighting style. Whenever your beast uses its reaction to give an enemy disadvantage on an attack roll, your next attack against the target deals an additional Quarry dice of damage.
    • Defensive: While wearing a green hat with a single feather, you gain +1 AC.


    Beastmaster
    No proficiency bonus to damage rolls.
    Can only have beast trigger Quarry by using the appropriate Hunting Style
    Animal Companion starts at 1/8 CR
    Animal Companion goes to 1/4 CR at level 7?

    Hunter
    Can deal double quarry damage once per turn.
    Hunter can reroll quarry at level 7

    Warden
    Needs to be half-caster
    Needs to have ranger spells.
    ---------------------

    Design Goal:
    - Damage per turn (on hit) should be a little less than the rogue's.
    - There should be no trap options, and no "one best way" to build the Ranger.
    - Keep Quarry as a damage bonus, and not some 1/turn psuedo sneak attack.

    Initial Analysis: LINK

    Conclusion:
    I've done an okay job at balancing the class up to level 7. I still need a good reference for beast damage to make sure.

    The following have become absoloutely clear:
    • The Animal Companion CR will have to be redone from scratch
    • The Warden needs to have the Offical Ranger's spellcasting progression and spell list, as written.
    • The Hunter needs the Quarry reroll at level 7
    • No-one can have Extra Attack until level 11, if the beast CR is carefully plotted out.


    ----------------------

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    Extra Attack:
    Without limiting Quarry to 1/turn, this had to be done. Hopefully we find a place for it later. It's also very hard to give the Beastmaster Extra Attack since he already has it with his animal companion. It's tempting to give Extra Attack only to the Hunter and the Warden.

    1d6 Quarry
    The Quarry damage is the source of the TWF problem. Increasing the dice size only adds to the problem.

    No Fighting Styles
    The TWF problem only got worse with the addition of fighting styles.

    Quick Mark
    Allows single-handed rangers to compete with TWF

    Savage Attacker and Protection
    Having both of these tacked on to the beast proved too strong. The protection bit is just so thematic I had to find a way to include it.

    Defensive Hunting Style
    Because why not

    No Proficiency bonus to Companion damage rolls
    We only have space for one beast-damage booster, and the Quarry felt more thematic than a flat bonus.

    Animal Companion starts at 1/8 CR
    Since the companions HP is based on the ranger, the only thing we need from a companion is a balanced attack. The attacks of 1/4 CR beasts proved to strong early on. The alternative is to replace any damage the beast's attacks do with a predetermined damage roll.

    Double Quarry Damage - Hunter
    The extra damage was needed to keep up with the beastmaster and rogue, but had to be limited to 1/turn to keep TWF in check.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-09-09 at 08:14 AM.

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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Bjarkmundur: you keep writing features that lets you choose to use quarry as a bonus action. Why would you want to use a free action ability as a bonus action? Or are you assuming that marking a target as your quarry should be an action for the base class?


    I quite like fighting styles, and since it was in the progression table, I assumed we were just using the standard ranger ones.

    I think we have been pretty good at avoiding making a class that assumes a certain ranger type. Including mle/ranged and str/dex. Of course the different styles should be roughly the same in terms of power, but bear in mind that duelling and archery should do less dmg than the other mle options, as they can be used with shield or at range.

    If there are problems with the Warden getting Hunters Mark, we could simply not add it to the Druid spell list. That way, their increase in dmg would have to come from other spells such as zephyr strike, flame arrows etc.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0
    Beast's Defense (14)
    When your beast uses its Protection fighting style it also grants resistance against the damage of the attack if it hits.
    I think you have to explain the protection fighting style in the feature, since the original requires a shield. And maybe also, that it is the player that gets resistance, and not the beast itself.
    Last edited by Jaxby; 2019-09-09 at 10:29 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Your first attack against a creature doesn't deal quarry damage, since it represents learning how a creature fights as you fight it. This leads to single weaponed rangers both having their BA free an unable to trigger their quarry damage in a single turn. I thought giving the option of using your BA to study the target it was fitting, although it was an idea we moved away from early in the class' design.

    I made sure there were differences between the style, I just thought doing half damage compared to other builds was setting us up for the same problem the original beast master had: being so bad it was almost unplayable, was presented as a trap option and didn't fulfill its promised fantasy.

    The whole reason were doing this is to fulfill the ranger fantasy. If we are failing to balance all builds except TWF, I don't think we succeeded in our original design goal. As enjoyable as the class is as a whole, falling too behind in damage does get in the way of the overall experience of playing a fun class.

    Spoiler
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    Just take three builds as an example. Set them up at level 7 and compare then in terms of how you would experience playing them in a session. Take a Beastmaster with a wolf, a TWF Hunter and a Longbow Hunter. You'll see the gap between these builds is too big to be negligible.

    Keep in mind the Rogue at level 7 is 25

    Beastmaster
    Shield and Sword, duelist style.
    Attack, apply mark = 1d8 + 6
    Extra Attack, trigger mark = 1d8 + 6 + 1d6
    Bonus Action, Wolf attack, proficiency bonus, trigger mark = 2d4+2+3+1d6
    = 38 damage

    Hunter
    TWF, TWF style
    Attack, apply mark = 1d6 + 4
    Extra Attack, trigger mark = 1d6 + 4 + 1d6
    Bonus Action Attack, trigger mark = 1d6 + 4 + 1d6
    Double all quarry damage = 3d6
    = 40 damage

    Longbow Hunter
    Longbow,
    Attack, apply mark = 1d8 + 4
    Extra Attack, trigger mark = 1d8 + 4 + 1d6
    Double all quarry damage = 2d6
    = 27 damage

    I understand there being a dice or two between weapon choices, bur right the beastmaster is 11 points a head. That's not counting for the +2 AC and pack tactics.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-09-09 at 12:15 PM.

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  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Ah okay, that makes sense, if you want to add it to the first hit.

    I have to confess I skimmed the first few damage calculation examples, as calculating damage is not my strong suit. Seeing the example in your last post, I will agree 100% with you, that the TWF hunter and beast master seem too strong.

    The design of them is just so elegant though :)

    Would removing the quarry bonus from the beast be an idea? Or the prof bonus to damage?

    And removing double quarry dice for the hunter? Or making the extra die a once per turn only, thereby only nerfing several attacks following the first?

    Edit: spelling
    Last edited by Jaxby; 2019-09-09 at 01:59 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Your first attack against a creature doesn't deal quarry damage, since it represents learning how a creature fights as you fight it. This leads to single weaponed rangers both having their BA free an unable to trigger their quarry damage in a single turn. I thought giving the option of using your BA to study the target it was fitting, although it was an idea we moved away from early in the class' design.

    I made sure there were differences between the style, I just thought doing half damage compared to other builds was setting us up for the same problem the original beast master had: being so bad it was almost unplayable, was presented as a trap option and didn't fulfill its promised fantasy.

    The whole reason were doing this is to fulfill the ranger fantasy. If we are failing to balance all builds except TWF, I don't think we succeeded in our original design goal. As enjoyable as the class is as a whole, falling too behind in damage does get in the way of the overall experience of playing a fun class.

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    Just take three builds as an example. Set them up at level 7 and compare then in terms of how you would experience playing them in a session. Take a Beastmaster with a wolf, a TWF Hunter and a Longbow Hunter. You'll see the gap between these builds is too big to be negligible.

    Keep in mind the Rogue at level 7 is 25

    Beastmaster
    Shield and Sword, duelist style.
    Attack, apply mark = 1d8 + 6
    Extra Attack, trigger mark = 1d8 + 6 + 1d6
    Bonus Action, Wolf attack, proficiency bonus, trigger mark = 2d4+2+3+1d6
    = 38 damage

    Hunter
    TWF, TWF style
    Attack, apply mark = 1d6 + 4
    Extra Attack, trigger mark = 1d6 + 4 + 1d6
    Bonus Action Attack, trigger mark = 1d6 + 4 + 1d6
    Double all quarry damage = 3d6
    = 40 damage

    Longbow Hunter
    Longbow,
    Attack, apply mark = 1d8 + 4
    Extra Attack, trigger mark = 1d8 + 4 + 1d6
    Double all quarry damage = 2d6
    = 27 damage

    I understand there being a dice or two between weapon choices, bur right the beastmaster is 11 points a head. That's not counting for the +2 AC and pack tactics.
    That is a rather biased take on it as you ignore the to hit modifiers and crits.

    I started putting a sheet together. The damage is average per turn damage of 3 turns of combat. You can modify B1 to set which AC to compare to.
    For now, I ignore magical items and feats since they will complicate it a lot more. Adding sharpshooter will improve the damage of ranged combat a lot at certain AC.

    Include basic rogue, champion fighter, old hunter, and this hunter so far where it makes sense so no sword and board rogue. Will add warden and beastmaster tomorrow.
    Sword + Board uses a d8 weapon.
    Twf uses 2 d6 weapons.
    Ranger and fighter uses a heavy crossbow until lvl 5 and then switches to a longbow, rogue uses a light crossbow straight through.
    Old ranger uses huntersmark until swift quiver is available at range.
    I have not included multiattack or similar for the rangers. But, it seems like the new non-twf hunters need to get 1 more attack through it on every turn to be on par with the other classes.

    The main interesting things that you miss is for example:
    • a TWF rogue surpases this twf hunter at higher levels versus enemies with 19 or more in AC. TWF new hunter deals a lot more damage vs low AC in the mid levels.
    • Both the old sword+board and the old archery hunters outdamage this hunter with the same fighting styles from level 2 and forward. Both rangers are pretty on par with sword and board fighters but the new ranged hunter is slightly behind at t3 and t4. More so vs low AC monsters since their to hit has capped out.



    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    edit: fixed errors with archery and s+b new ranger.
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2019-09-09 at 11:40 PM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Some lovely back and forth, it's good to see. Also good to see my eyeballing is still working.

    Good catch on the beast protection, will clear that up.

    Considering the responses I'm planning to leave Fighting Styles as they are, at least for now. Do people want the Defense option added back in or are happy with what's there?

    I'm also going to reduce raw damage output, but not by making Quarry once per turn.
    Hunters will go back to roll-twice-take-best. Not all the options should have heavy bonus action use.
    Beast companion will not get either proficiency bonus or Quarry die to damage. Taking preferences on which to cut
    Hunter's Mark i'm not so sure about. I don't want to just scrap it (as it is still an Ancients pally spell) but perhaps reduce its damage to once per turn or something.

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quarry should be changed to "weapon attack" to prevent Lock2/RgrX (or MI(Lock)) Hex + Agoblast, which would do extremely high damage for minimum expenditure, and seems contrary to the "idea" of ranger I assume you are going for.

    I'm not a fan of the "add 50 damage" ulti, it seems very unelegant to me, but w/e.

    I haven't read the class in detail yet, but it looks good in general, and has a nice rangery vibe.

    Btw rangers should have some way to get increased move speed, maybe not the base class but one of the subs.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    Quarry should be changed to "weapon attack" to prevent Lock2/RgrX (or MI(Lock)) Hex + Agoblast, which would do extremely high damage for minimum expenditure, and seems contrary to the "idea" of ranger I assume you are going for.

    I'm not a fan of the "add 50 damage" ulti, it seems very unelegant to me, but w/e.

    I haven't read the class in detail yet, but it looks good in general, and has a nice rangery vibe.

    Btw rangers should have some way to get increased move speed, maybe not the base class but one of the subs.
    Well, there's a bit to unpack there. Quarry is deliberately built to work with spell attacks (magic stone, primal savagery, produce flame, thorn whip, ice knife, flame blade, steel wind strike) and its something that sets it apart from things like rage, divine smite and sneak attack. Eblast itself isn't much of a problem, it's more the small opportunity cost in spell slots/warlock levels that is the issue and you'd probably be a bit MAD if you wanted to do that. Still totally doable and worthwhile (which is good!), but how superior is it compared to other MCs you could take as a warlock or feats you could take as a ranger? Something like a Feylock/Warden ranger sounds pretty fun and interesting actually!

    Oh yeah, still taking suggestions for a better capstone. Extra damage and condition is functional but not what i'd consider phenomenal.

    Rangers get plenty of mobility enhancing items without a straight improvement to speed however there are ways to do it (mobility feat, warden spells, MCing, etc). If we get to the 'expanded subclasses' stage there will be two more and one of them will definitely focus on movement.

    And thankyou! It would never have turned out so well without the feedback in this thread.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-09-09 at 05:51 PM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Did you account for not getting quarry damage on your first attack, and then reduce the damage on the second attack in the cases where the first attack didn't hit?

    But I agree, the damage needs to be adjusted pretty much separately from everything else. Good thing we got the theme pretty well established; we can simply work around it :D
    Yes, the first attack doesn't get the quarry bonus in my spreadsheet. The second attack isn't affected because you can set Quarry after an attack, regardless of hit or miss.

    Beastmaster
    Shield and Sword, duelist style.
    Attack, apply mark = 1d8 + 6
    Extra Attack, trigger mark = 1d8 + 6 + 1d6
    Bonus Action, Wolf attack, proficiency bonus, trigger mark = 2d4+2+3+1d6
    = 38 damage
    Note: The wolf doesn't add the proficiency bonus to its damage. This should be 35 damage.

    Hunter
    TWF, TWF style
    Attack, apply mark = 1d6 + 4
    Extra Attack, trigger mark = 1d6 + 4 + 1d6
    Bonus Action Attack, trigger mark = 1d6 + 4 + 1d6
    Double all quarry damage = 3d6
    = 40 damage
    Note: TWF Hunter is at 29.5 damage without the doubled Quarry damage.

    Longbow Hunter
    Longbow,
    Attack, apply mark = 1d8 + 4
    Extra Attack, trigger mark = 1d8 + 4 + 1d6
    Double all quarry damage = 2d6
    = 27 damage
    Note: Longbow hunter is at 20 damage without the doubled quarry damage.


    Given the rogue is at 25 damage, the longbow is low and the beastmaster is high. The TWF Hunter is within reasonable range if double damage is removed. The Beastmaster is still a bit high even if we remove the beast's Quarry damage (32.5).

    I added the rogue to my spreadsheet to compare. Its set using TWF, and a 75% chance to achieve Sneak Attack each round. During levels 1-4, it's about double the baseline ranger, similar to the TWF ranger and Beastmaster after level 3. Basically, TWF dominates at levels 1-4, regardless of class. At level 5, the difference drops to marginally ahead of baseline ranger, but increases as levels go up, til it gets to around 30% above baseline ranger.

    Given that the rogue is more intended to use stealth, and thus get advantage on attack (which my spreadsheet doesn't account for), and that the rogue subclasses don't add much in the way of combat benefits, I get the feeling that reaching about 40% over baseline is a decent position for a ranger subclass.

    The Dueling and Archery fighting styles add something like 10%-15% to the baseline class, which leaves room for extra combat features in the subclasses. TWF is where things get icky.

    Beastmaster with Dueling fighting style ends up close to 40% over baseline, as long as the pet doesn't do Quarry damage. As long as the pets don't get more than a +3 in their attack stat, everything looks good. The only CR1 creature that breaks that is the brown bear, which gets +4 Str. Since there's a wide variety of other beasts to choose from that are +3 in their attack stat, I'm OK with not being too concerned about the bear.

    Also, even the basic wolf is a solid choice all the way up to level 20. Given the likelihood of becoming attached to their animal companion, the fact that they're still viable at later levels also helps mitigate the issue of getting overpowered with later beasts. The options to encourage more utility and defense use should also work to mitigate overpowered-ness.


    For level 7, vs AC18, and covering 3 rounds, I'm currently getting average damage values of:

    Baseline ranger: 43
    Dueling ranger: 50
    Archery ranger: 51
    TWF ranger (no offhand Quarry): 60
    TWF ranger (offhand Quarry): 66
    Beastmaster (no fighting style, no pet Quarry): 57
    Beastmaster, Dueling (no pet Quarry): 63
    Beastmaster, Dueling (pet Quarry): 68
    PAM Champion: 52
    Rogue TWF: 49 (no advantage)


    Edit: There are errors in the above numbers; don't use them. See corrected values in post below.

    I haven't put together a spreadsheet page for the original Hunter, but a quick calculation using Hunter's Mark, Colossus Slayer, and Duelist gives:

    (1d8 (weapon) + 1d6 (HM) + 4 (stat) + 1 (+1 weapon)) * 2 (attacks) + crits + 1d8 (CS) = 35.525 * 3 rounds * 55% accuracy (+8 att vs 18 AC) = 58.61625 ~= 59

    So we're actually not too far off in terms of damage output. Hitting something around a 60 should be acceptable. Also, 40% over baseline ranger is 60.2, so that supports that estimate.
    Last edited by Moxxmix; 2019-09-09 at 07:11 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Note: The wolf doesn't add the proficiency bonus to its damage. This should be 35 damage.

    Note: TWF Hunter is at 29.5 damage without the doubled Quarry damage.

    Note: Longbow hunter is at 20 damage without the doubled quarry damage.
    In all fairness, those calculations were done before my edits (see post #135)
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-09-09 at 05:54 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    We coooouuuuld limit quarry to the attack action?

    Moxxmix, your effort and skill are commendable. I think with you leading the charge, the damage output of this class is in good hands. I just still hope the universally accepted design goal is 'no trap options, but with room for optimizing'

    Since the fighting styles are starting to make more sense, I still think you should use the fighter ones as written. Each DM is free to add his own houseruled fighting styles at his own table, they should not come bundled with the class IMO.

    For playtesting purposes, I'd love to get some general guidelines on how to do it effectively. What ranger build should I use, and what other class should I use in the party for comparison? I'm thinking about having two rangers and two baseline classes, to get the most amount of playtesting done in each session.

    TWF Hunter and a TWF Rogue is an obvious choice, but I'm unsure what the baseline should be for the Warden and Beastmaster.

    SnB Ranger and SnB Paladin, perhaps? But what subclass of paladin?

    Longbow Hunter and Longbow Fighter. But what subclass of fighter?
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-09-09 at 06:37 PM.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
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    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    OK, more damage analysis.

    First: MISTAKES!

    I had rewritten the spreadsheet pages to streamline how they worked, so it would be easier to make changes and toggle switches. When I was copying worksheets, however, I forgot to reset the TWF's page's weapon damage die. So the numbers I provided above were using 1d8 for the weapon instead of 1d6. Fixing this helps a lot in bringing things back into line.

    I also found an error in the Beastmaster's pet damage that was increasing damage. Fixed that.

    Second: I put in handling of the Hunter's feature to take the best of two die rolls for Quarry damage. This provides a nice boost for the sample (level 7 vs AC 18). That helps bring things in line with the target damage value of 60.

    Putting both of those in, these are the revised numbers:

    Baseline ranger: 43
    Dueling Hunter: 53
    Archery Hunter: 54
    TWF Hunter (no BA Quarry): 58
    TWF ranger (with BA Quarry): 65
    Beastmaster, Dueling (no pet Quarry): 59
    Beastmaster, Dueling (pet Quarry): 64
    PAM Champion: 52
    Rogue TWF: 49 (75% SA) to 58 (100% SA)
    Old Hunter (manual): 59

    The two instances of higher-than-desired damage come from getting Quarry damage from bonus actions (either offhand attack or pet attack). If we remove those, then the damage mostly lines up pretty well, at close to 60 (ranging from 53 to 59).

    Since TWF on Hunter comes in near the target of 60, I'm less inclined to try to further hinder it. I had been considering whether it would be useful to add a bonus action to Hunter to steer away from TWF, but I don't think it's necessary now. It's still an option if an interesting idea comes up, though I suspect most new ideas will be routed to new subclasses.

    Also, I added alternate values for rogue, considering I believe it was said by Mike Mearls that they balanced rogue on the assumption that they'd almost always get SA each round. If we allow for that, then it puts the rogue close to the 60 mark that the others are reaching.

    With the fix to Beastmaster damage, it's also now falling in the same range as the others, at 59 without Quarry damage, and 64 with Quarry damage.


    ~~~~

    Overall, I'm pretty happy now with where things fall. Turning off Quarry damage on bonus actions puts all the damage in the range of 53 to 59, which I feel is acceptable. Dueling is on the low end, but it comes with the bonus of extra AC from the shield, so it's a fair tradeoff.
    Last edited by Moxxmix; 2019-09-09 at 07:15 PM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    For playtesting purposes, I'd love to get some general guidelines on how to do it effectively. What ranger build should I use, and what other class should I use in the party for comparison? I'm thinking about having two rangers and two baseline classes, to get the most amount of playtesting done in each session.

    TWF Hunter and a TWF Rogue is an obvious choice, but I'm unsure what the baseline should be for the Warden and Beastmaster.

    SnB Ranger and SnB Paladin, perhaps? But what subclass of paladin?

    Longbow Hunter and Longbow Fighter. But what subclass of fighter?
    Playtesting is always 'whatever I can get' in my experience, but if you have the opportunity to plan it out i'd do something like:

    Run the same adventure multiple times if you can, like something from TftYP as an example. Have a rounded party of 4-5
    Pair the playtest ranger with another class of rough equivalent. The three PHB fighters are good counterparts but there is also the barb, paladin and rogue. Don't run old and new rangers together and try not to run two new rangers together unless you're specifically testing subclasses.
    Raw numbers are only part of the picture, feedback on more subjective things like 'how much I contributed' and 'X wasn't as fun as Y' are also valuable.
    Don't optimize out the gate, take 'reasonable' builds then we work on breaking everything at the second stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    -Damage-
    Excellent! I'm OK with beastmaster having some slightly above-curve damage since the beast carries its own drawbacks (like being killed), TWF is always a tough one to tangle with. As long as it's just a few points above average that doesn't sound gamebreaking (well, any more gamebreaking than pre-extra attack TWF already is anyways).
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-09-09 at 07:45 PM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmunder
    Since the fighting styles are starting to make more sense, I still think you should use the fighter ones as written. Each DM is free to add his own houseruled fighting styles at his own table, they should not come bundled with the class IMO.
    Regarding the fighting styles, I think it's fine to use the ones provided in the PHB ranger (dueling, archery, TWF, and defense). Fighter's Great Weapon Fighting doesn't feel appropriate for ranger, and Protection has been handed off to the Beastmaster's pet.

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Yes, the first attack doesn't get the quarry bonus in my spreadsheet. The second attack isn't affected because you can set Quarry after an attack, regardless of hit or miss.


    Note: The wolf doesn't add the proficiency bonus to its damage. This should be 35 damage.


    Note: TWF Hunter is at 29.5 damage without the doubled Quarry damage.


    Note: Longbow hunter is at 20 damage without the doubled quarry damage.


    Given the rogue is at 25 damage, the longbow is low and the beastmaster is high. The TWF Hunter is within reasonable range if double damage is removed. The Beastmaster is still a bit high even if we remove the beast's Quarry damage (32.5).

    I added the rogue to my spreadsheet to compare. Its set using TWF, and a 75% chance to achieve Sneak Attack each round. During levels 1-4, it's about double the baseline ranger, similar to the TWF ranger and Beastmaster after level 3. Basically, TWF dominates at levels 1-4, regardless of class. At level 5, the difference drops to marginally ahead of baseline ranger, but increases as levels go up, til it gets to around 30% above baseline ranger.

    Given that the rogue is more intended to use stealth, and thus get advantage on attack (which my spreadsheet doesn't account for), and that the rogue subclasses don't add much in the way of combat benefits, I get the feeling that reaching about 40% over baseline is a decent position for a ranger subclass.

    The Dueling and Archery fighting styles add something like 10%-15% to the baseline class, which leaves room for extra combat features in the subclasses. TWF is where things get icky.

    Beastmaster with Dueling fighting style ends up close to 40% over baseline, as long as the pet doesn't do Quarry damage. As long as the pets don't get more than a +3 in their attack stat, everything looks good. The only CR1 creature that breaks that is the brown bear, which gets +4 Str. Since there's a wide variety of other beasts to choose from that are +3 in their attack stat, I'm OK with not being too concerned about the bear.

    Also, even the basic wolf is a solid choice all the way up to level 20. Given the likelihood of becoming attached to their animal companion, the fact that they're still viable at later levels also helps mitigate the issue of getting overpowered with later beasts. The options to encourage more utility and defense use should also work to mitigate overpowered-ness.


    For level 7, vs AC18, and covering 3 rounds, I'm currently getting average damage values of:

    Baseline ranger: 43
    Dueling ranger: 50
    Archery ranger: 51
    TWF ranger (no offhand Quarry): 60
    TWF ranger (offhand Quarry): 66
    Beastmaster (no fighting style, no pet Quarry): 57
    Beastmaster, Dueling (no pet Quarry): 63
    Beastmaster, Dueling (pet Quarry): 68
    PAM Champion: 52
    Rogue TWF: 49 (no advantage)


    Edit: There are errors in the above numbers; don't use them. See corrected values in post below.

    I haven't put together a spreadsheet page for the original Hunter, but a quick calculation using Hunter's Mark, Colossus Slayer, and Duelist gives:

    (1d8 (weapon) + 1d6 (HM) + 4 (stat) + 1 (+1 weapon)) * 2 (attacks) + crits + 1d8 (CS) = 35.525 * 3 rounds * 55% accuracy (+8 att vs 18 AC) = 58.61625 ~= 59

    So we're actually not too far off in terms of damage output. Hitting something around a 60 should be acceptable. Also, 40% over baseline ranger is 60.2, so that supports that estimate.
    Since you can take large creatures, the drafthorse and the warhorse are quite better than the wolf if the wolf does not get advantage. That said, most beasts at these levels are way worse than wolfs and horses so I am not sure which is best to compare it to? If you take one of the worst beasts (crab for example) you are left far below every other style. If you instead take a more average beast (like axe beaks and crocodiles) and it doesn't get quarry, the damage seems to be just above the other styles and subclasses.

    Also, how many magic weapons are you assuming? I guess it would be fair to delay the magic weapon for the off hand a bit? Especially since that will further improve TWF while not being an as fair assessment?
    ---

    Added beastmaster to my sheet. Made the hunter have "advantage" on quarry dice instead of double it, and made it possible to include and exclude quarry on beast/dualwield. It might still not look as good as Moxxmix's sheet but anyway.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2019-09-10 at 01:16 AM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot View Post
    Since you can take large creatures, the drafthorse and the warhorse are quite better than the wolf if the wolf does not get advantage. That said, most beasts at these levels are way worse than wolfs and horses so I am not sure which is best to compare it to? If you take one of the worst beasts (crab for example) you are left far below every other style. If you instead take a more average beast (like axe beaks and crocodiles) and it doesn't get quarry, the damage seems to be just above the other styles and subclasses.

    Also, how many magic weapons are you assuming? I guess it would be fair to delay the magic weapon for the off hand a bit? Especially since that will further improve TWF while not being an as fair assessment?
    For magic weapons, all weapons are considered to be the same, so yes, the offhand was also assumed to be a +1. A non-magical offhand would weaken the results, but that gets into the issue of when you might get magical weapons, and what types (eg: dagger would drop the damage die to 1d4), and so forth, which is far too much to try to integrate into an evaluation. Since I want the estimates to be comparable, everyone got "equal" gear.


    As for companion options, I'll just scan through the CR 1/8-1/4 stuff for the starter.

    Wolf (what I used): 2d4 (5) damage for the dice portion of the attack; +2 attack stat; Pack Tactics (not included in evaluation); 59 damage

    Axe Beak: 1d8 (4.5) dice; +2 attack stat; 58 damage
    Blood Hawk [CR 1/8]: 1d4 (2.5) dice; +2 attack stat; Pack Tactics; flight; 56 damage
    Boar: 1d6 (3.5) dice; +1 attack stat; 55 damage
    Camel [CR 1/8]: 1d4 dice; +3 stat; 58 damage
    Constrictor Snake: 1d6/1d8 dice; +2 stat; Constriction; 57/58 damage
    Draft Horse: 2d4 dice; +4 stat; 64 damage (ouch)
    Elk: 1d6/2d4 dice; +3 stat; 59/61 damage
    Flying Snake [CR 1/8]: 1 + 3d4 damage; +4 to hit; flight, swim; 64 damage (nasty little bugger)
    Giant Badger: 2d4 dice; +1 stat; 57 damage
    Giant Crab [CR 1/8]: 1d6 dice; +1 stat; 55 damage
    Giant Weasel: 1d4 dice; +3 stat; 58 damage

    ... And it keeps going on like that. Basically, there's not enough variance that I would consider any of them bad, even the CR 1/8 options (which can be surprisingly powerful in their own way).

    Note that the low end of these (something like the giant crab, or boar) is still about on par with the archery Hunter option (not counting Sharpshooter). I would not consider any of them trap options, and there's lots of reasons I can think of to pick quite a few of the options. You're kind of spoiled for choice, here. I want a spitting camel, or an angry blood hawk, or a giant weasel, or a flying snake!

    Now, the Warhorse is definitely powerful

    Warhorse [CR 1/2]: 2d6 dice; +4 stat; 67 damage

    and there's a notable lack of other good CR 1/2 options, so I can see that being a concern. I'd almost be OK with just keeping the companion limited to CR 1/4, if not for losing the bear option, and all the fun stuff that shows up at CR 1 (lions and tigers and bears!).

    Still, despite the two horse options being ahead of the game in raw damage, I'm pretty sure most people don't pick Beastmaster to have a pet horse. And even if not optimal, just about every option looks good, in flavor and extra abilities like flight or Pack Tactics or special attacks.

    As for the bit about Quarry, remember that all my estimates assume that we remove Quarry damage from the beast companions. That overpowers Beastmaster too much. As such, the above numbers aren't restricted to only fighting the ranger's primary target.
    Last edited by Moxxmix; 2019-09-10 at 02:38 AM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    As for the bit about Quarry, remember that all my estimates assume that we remove Quarry damage from the beast companions. That overpowers Beastmaster too much. As such, the above numbers aren't restricted to only fighting the ranger's primary target.
    How about taking away +prof to damage instead? Same average damage, requires the same target.

  27. - Top - End - #147
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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Considering the responses I'm planning to leave Fighting Styles as they are, at least for now. Do people want the Defense option added back in or are happy with what's there?
    ----snip----
    Beast companion will not get either proficiency bonus or Quarry die to damage. Taking preferences on which to cut
    ----snip----
    Hunter's Mark i'm not so sure about. I don't want to just scrap it (as it is still an Ancients pally spell) but perhaps reduce its damage to once per turn or something.
    I think you should let the ranger have the defensive one. Its nice with the option, and it means that rangers eho take it will have slightly lower dmg, which is okay judging by the balancing math.

    It looks like both quarry dmg and prof dmg have to go, if I'm reading the numbers right. If we only remove one, I would say keep the quarry die, as it is more specific to the ranger.

    Hunter's Mark: paladins can still have hunter's mark. I'm not saying remove the spell, just don't add it to the expanded druid spell list with the other ranger spells. That way it's not on the "new ranger spell list". If we are still going Warden spell list = druid spell list.

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    How about taking away +prof to damage instead? Same average damage, requires the same target.
    It currently only adds prof to hit, not to damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    For magic weapons, all weapons are considered to be the same, so yes, the offhand was also assumed to be a +1. A non-magical offhand would weaken the results, but that gets into the issue of when you might get magical weapons, and what types (eg: dagger would drop the damage die to 1d4), and so forth, which is far too much to try to integrate into an evaluation. Since I want the estimates to be comparable, everyone got "equal" gear.


    As for companion options, I'll just scan through the CR 1/8-1/4 stuff for the starter.

    Wolf (what I used): 2d4 (5) damage for the dice portion of the attack; +2 attack stat; Pack Tactics (not included in evaluation); 59 damage

    Axe Beak: 1d8 (4.5) dice; +2 attack stat; 58 damage
    Blood Hawk [CR 1/8]: 1d4 (2.5) dice; +2 attack stat; Pack Tactics; flight; 56 damage
    Boar: 1d6 (3.5) dice; +1 attack stat; 55 damage
    Camel [CR 1/8]: 1d4 dice; +3 stat; 58 damage
    Constrictor Snake: 1d6/1d8 dice; +2 stat; Constriction; 57/58 damage
    Draft Horse: 2d4 dice; +4 stat; 64 damage (ouch)
    Elk: 1d6/2d4 dice; +3 stat; 59/61 damage
    Flying Snake [CR 1/8]: 1 + 3d4 damage; +4 to hit; flight, swim; 64 damage (nasty little bugger)
    Giant Badger: 2d4 dice; +1 stat; 57 damage
    Giant Crab [CR 1/8]: 1d6 dice; +1 stat; 55 damage
    Giant Weasel: 1d4 dice; +3 stat; 58 damage

    ... And it keeps going on like that. Basically, there's not enough variance that I would consider any of them bad, even the CR 1/8 options (which can be surprisingly powerful in their own way).

    Note that the low end of these (something like the giant crab, or boar) is still about on par with the archery Hunter option (not counting Sharpshooter). I would not consider any of them trap options, and there's lots of reasons I can think of to pick quite a few of the options. You're kind of spoiled for choice, here. I want a spitting camel, or an angry blood hawk, or a giant weasel, or a flying snake!

    Now, the Warhorse is definitely powerful

    Warhorse [CR 1/2]: 2d6 dice; +4 stat; 67 damage

    and there's a notable lack of other good CR 1/2 options, so I can see that being a concern. I'd almost be OK with just keeping the companion limited to CR 1/4, if not for losing the bear option, and all the fun stuff that shows up at CR 1 (lions and tigers and bears!).

    Still, despite the two horse options being ahead of the game in raw damage, I'm pretty sure most people don't pick Beastmaster to have a pet horse. And even if not optimal, just about every option looks good, in flavor and extra abilities like flight or Pack Tactics or special attacks.

    As for the bit about Quarry, remember that all my estimates assume that we remove Quarry damage from the beast companions. That overpowers Beastmaster too much. As such, the above numbers aren't restricted to only fighting the ranger's primary target.
    Part on magic weapons are true even if I would ignore them completely for the same reason. =S

    Nice analysis, what if we add quarry damage instead of giving proficiency to hit?
    Edit: some quick checks on this. It seems about equal if we give +prof on beast attacks to hit to +quarry on damage. Quarry is slighty DPS vs Average AC. Prof to hit is better vs high AC. I am tempted to say that it would be more fun to give the beast the quarry to damage than the prof to hit. That should also make the poison dealing beasts slightly worse.
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2019-09-10 at 03:37 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #149
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Iceland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quick Strike
    When you take the Attack action you can choose to not add your ability modifier to your damage rolls. If you do so you can use your bonus action to make a secondary attack with the same weapon. You do not add your ability modifier to the secondary attack.

    So you can have a Longsword and get "two weapon fighting" or a longbow and get "two weapon fighting". Now the playing field is completely level, every one has a bonus action.

    Throw the numbers into anydice.com, I think you'll like what you see ^^

    If you use this I vote for quarry on hit, so each Ranger has a way to trigger quarry damage with a bonus action, although you might have to reduce the CR of the beast by one step to compensate.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-09-10 at 08:16 AM.

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    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  30. - Top - End - #150
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Aug 2019

    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I feel like it is starting to get messy, if we have to redesign TWF and the other styles completely just for the ranger class. I think I'm getting lost in the math here, so bear with me, but here are my proposals:

    If the BM beast deals too much damage, just remove the extra beast damage.

    If the TWF ranger deals too much damage, maybe make quarry only apply to one hit per turn (though I personally quite like it applying to every attack, for simplicity), or reduce the size of the die. Or as someone proposed, make it work only with the attack action, and not with bonus actions.

    If the archer version deals too little damage, maybe give the hunter a feature where he can use several quarry dice if he only attacks with a 2 handed/ranged weapon.

    If the warden does too little damage, give it hunter's mark, if it deals too much, take HM away.

    Beasts having varying hit modifiers (quarry die to hit):
    I'm aware that some spells and features give you a die extra to hit, like a d4 or something, but I don't think there is any precedent in the game for making a basic attack use a rolled modifier to hit.

    Edit: rolling for proficiency is actually described as an optional rule in the DMG, so I guess that's a thing.
    Last edited by Jaxby; 2019-09-10 at 10:06 AM.

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