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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Here's an attempt at the intro section. I copied the first few example paragraphs, and then started adding new stuff. Part of the goal was to get rid of the purely nature-focused elements of the description, and allow a slightly more inclusive conceptualization.

    Ranger

    Rough and wild looking, a human stalks alone through the shadows of trees, hunting the orcs he knows are planning a raid on a nearby farm. Clutching a shortsword in each hand, he becomes a whirlwind of steel, cutting down one enemy after another.

    After tumbling away from a cone of freezing air, an elf finds her feet and draws back her bow to loose an arrow at the white dragon. Shrugging off the wave of fear that emanates from the dragon like the cold of its breath, she sends one arrow after another to find the gaps between the dragon's thick scales.

    Holding his hand high, a half-elf whistles to the hawk that circles high above him, calling the bird back to his side. Whispering instructions in Elvish, he points to the owlbear he's been tracking and sends the hawk to distract the creature while he readies his bow.

    Grizzled beard leading the way, and wearing the dirt of leagues of road travel, the dwarf finally catches sight of the man he's been hunting for the last month. Adjusting his cap and unslinging his crossbow, he begins stalking towards the inevitable confrontation.

    Primal and Independent

    A wanderer and explorer, the ranger sits on the border between the wild world and the tamed. A ranger is both hunter and defender, protecting civilization in ways that ordered structure cannot. Outsiders often see them as primal, making use of the tools of nature to defend against it, but rangers are just as much a part of the civilized world that birthed them as any other, compelled to protect that world from the darkness that lurks beyond the comforting fire.

    Rangers often work independently, as there are few who would join them on that thin border, and the strictures of organization do more to hinder than help when in pursuit of the dangers that are under no obligation to follow the rules of polite society. But some find companionship with adventurers willing to aid them in defeating monsters both grim and familiar.
    It pretty much exactly fills the first page, wrapping around the overall class table. I didn't want to expand it much further, though the document still needs the "Creating a Ranger" section filled in, which covers a bit more of ideas for "Why are you a ranger?"


    Comments, alterations, additional text, etc, all welcome.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Lying cat!


    You mean give them a second? I'm not sure. It would be a reasonable progress expectation, but at the same time the ranger can technically change the pet's skill any time they call a new beast (such as at 7 and 14, plus any deaths). I suppose it depends on how that interacts.
    I meant that I agree with you, giving all beasts a proficiency, even if they have one or two already?

    Also, the current wording of BM only gives proficiency to the skill of your choice, not to the skills the beast already has. Is that intentional?

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Here's an attempt at the intro section.
    ----snip----
    I have also tried looking into a ranger description, and I find it quite hard to write an invocative text that has to be so generic, it can encompass "all the rangers". Namely a description that invokes fantasy images of your Robin Hood-style green clad archer, but also fits an urban bounty hunter and batman..
    Also, how much did we want to include the "borderlands protector" theme?

    Because we could just take the PHB description, and make some adjustments. Like keeping the intro description, the "Independent Adventurers" and "Creating a Ranger" and then changing the "Deadly Hunters" to something like:

    Deadly Hunters
    Warriors of the wild, rangers specialize in hunting the monsters that threaten the edges of civilization—humanoid raiders, rampaging beasts and monstrosities, terrible giants, and deadly dragons. They learn to track their quarry as a predator does, moving stealthily through the wilds and hiding themselves in brush and rubble.

    Observing the natural circle of predator and prey first hand, rangers have an almost instinctual knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of their game. Rangers familiarize themselves with their surroundings to allow them to move silently and unhindered, as the tiniest snap of a twig or a minutes hesitation could mean the difference between preying and becoming prey.

    Some rangers channel the spirit of the crashing lightning, the whispering willows, or the rain-slick cobblestone street, and gain the ability to cast spells, much as a druid does. Their spells, like their combat abilities, emphasize speed, stealth, and the hunt.
    A ranger’s talents and abilities are honed with deadly focus on the grim task of protecting the borderlands.
    Oh, and I might describe your dwarf bounty hunter something like:
    With a satisfied grunt, a grizzled dwarf, wearing the dirt of many leagues of travel in his beard, finally catches sight of the man he’s been stalking for weeks. Adjusting his cap and rubbing some warmth into his good arm, he unslings his crossbow and loads his favorite bolt: The Penny-Dropper, or Penny for short.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I was working on a Ranger rework that's very similar to this one, but this one is just a bit better.

    So if I were to finish a personal rework and used a lot of this one that you guys have been working on as a baseline, who would I credit? This thread? Notable people in the thread?

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxby
    With a satisfied grunt, a grizzled dwarf, wearing the dirt of many leagues of travel in his beard, finally catches sight of the man he’s been stalking for weeks. Adjusting his cap and rubbing some warmth into his good arm, he unslings his crossbow and loads his favorite bolt: The Penny-Dropper, or Penny for short.
    I like it. Updating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxby
    I have also tried looking into a ranger description, and I find it quite hard to write an invocative text that has to be so generic, it can encompass "all the rangers". Namely a description that invokes fantasy images of your Robin Hood-style green clad archer, but also fits an urban bounty hunter and batman..
    Yeah, that describes the problem pretty well. What I ended up doing was focusing on what seemed to be a common point of intersection among the various themes: being on the border between civilization and absolute wilderness. The ranger in the PHB is described mostly from the perspective of being in the wilderness, but their goals are really about defending civilization from the wilds (and in the Batman case, the "wilds" is the unbound madness of the criminal underbelly). They straddle the edge between pure primal (such as barbarians and druids) and the civil (where you shift into ordinary fighters).

    So I tried to evoke that element, of trying to protect the civilized world from the uncivilized world, but needing to make use of the uncivilized world's tools because the civilized world's tools are designed to deal with the civilized world's problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxby
    Because we could just take the PHB description, and make some adjustments.
    I'll admit that part of my motivation was keeping the text short enough to fit on one page, so I sort of merged the Independent Adventurers and Deadly Hunters sections. I wouldn't mind expanding on things if we can get a truly solid narrative to establish the point of having a ranger class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxby
    Deadly Hunters
    Warriors of the wild, rangers specialize in hunting the monsters that threaten the edges of civilization—humanoid raiders, rampaging beasts and monstrosities, terrible giants, and deadly dragons. They learn to track their quarry as a predator does, moving stealthily through the wilds and hiding themselves in brush and rubble.

    Observing the natural circle of predator and prey first hand, rangers have an almost instinctual knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of their game. Rangers familiarize themselves with their surroundings to allow them to move silently and unhindered, as the tiniest snap of a twig or a minutes hesitation could mean the difference between preying and becoming prey.

    Some rangers channel the spirit of the crashing lightning, the whispering willows, or the rain-slick cobblestone street, and gain the ability to cast spells, much as a druid does. Their spells, like their combat abilities, emphasize speed, stealth, and the hunt.
    A ranger’s talents and abilities are honed with deadly focus on the grim task of protecting the borderlands.
    This is pretty solid. I'll go ahead and paste it in. Will go back later to see if it needs editing to keep the overall flow.

    For reference, here's v2. Lots of "Lorem ipsum" text as placeholders in spots. Here's v3 after adding your text.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by cajbaj View Post
    I was working on a Ranger rework that's very similar to this one, but this one is just a bit better.

    So if I were to finish a personal rework and used a lot of this one that you guys have been working on as a baseline, who would I credit? This thread? Notable people in the thread?
    Ah, useful reminder. I've added a credits section to the end of the document (updated v3). It includes a link to the thread and all the people who have posted in the thread. That should give you a workable credits list.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    A couple little side trips in the design challenge.

    1) We've done a lot to build this ranger class. However we now need to look back and ask, "If I were to design a ranger based on concept X, would this class be able to fulfill that concept in a satisfying way?"

    2) We've got our three basic subclasses, but we need to be sure that the class design space allows us to create additional subclasses. Can we at least think of general ideas that are sufficiently distinct enough to warrant their own subclass, and do they feel like they'd fit with the base class design?


    My responses:

    1.

    So far, I like the Beastmaster for builds that focus that direction. The Hunter is solid, but doesn't match the stealthy skirmisher/guide concept, and the Warden doesn't really pick up the slack (although it maybe could, depending on spells.)

    So while we've made it so that it doesn't need the sneaky wilderness aspect, it's lacking if you want to go in that direction.

    While we've put a lot of thought in the Hunter and Beastmaster, I don't know that we've put enough thought into the Warden. What is it that it brings to the table, aside from spellcasting?


    2.

    Our starting classes include the 1/3 caster (which has sufficient precedent in EK and AT that we don't need to dig too much into it right now), the Hunter (ie: Ranger+), and the Beastmaster.

    The Hunter's focus is on extra skills, adaptation to the environment, and multiattack. He also defends against surprise attacks, and gains the Eternal Hunter feature. Essentially, this subclass focuses on the hunt, gaining expertise in a tracking-focused skill. (So the rogue doesn't automatically outperform the ranger at basic tracking tasks.) It is offense-oriented. Its defense is primarily only in the pursuit of offense (eg: the resistances are in part related to the dragons of each environment). It takes the Quarry idea, and pursues it to the limit. Think "The Terminator".

    What it does not do is address a set of very common associations with the ranger: skirmishing, and scouting. The skirmisher is not a single-minded Terminator. This concept is built on stealth, ambush, traps, and caution in general. The skirmisher assumes the enemy is stronger than the ranger, but that the ranger's knowledge and tools can overcome that. He's less interested in direct combat than the Hunter. This subclass should get lots of options for traps and tactical movement.

    [Memo: Add Quarry damage to all creatures that fall into a skirmisher's trap, as long as no other creature is currently marked.]

    The Beastmaster leverages an animal companion for greater power. And not just an animal companion, but all the animal companions, using Call of the Wild. Rather than the traps that a skirmisher might use, the Beastmaster uses living, thinking weapons to overcome the enemy.

    Another aspect of the ranger concept is travel and exploration. The Guide. Is there space to design a character that handles the "survival" aspect of exploration without breaking things? Handle the issues of getting lost, finding food, etc, without simply skipping them the way Favored Environment does? This would be more of a support character. Might scrounge aspects of the Horizon Walker?


    Xanathar's subclasses:

    General note: How do we want to handle the possibility of bonus spells, such as the Xanathar subclasses get?

    Gloom Stalker: A Hunter/Skirmisher cross, with a bit of shadow magic.

    Horizon Walker: Uses something akin to Quarry as its basic damage feature. Employs movement magic. Presents itself as a planar traveler, but really isn't, mechanically. It just uses that idea as a theme to allow features that are fluffed to look like they're based on planar movement.

    Monster Slayer: Slayer's Prey is again very close to the Quarry feature. Adds ability to counterspell the quarry. Combines well with the Mage Slayer feat.

    Rogue/Scout: A wilderness-focused rogue, which is just as reasonable as an urban-focused ranger. Survivalist is similar to the Hunter's, except different skill options outside of Survival. The Hunter is focused on tracking, so has the option of Investigation and Perception. The Scout is just gaining info about Nature in general. While the Scout's feature names overlap with what we'd want to do with the more wilderness-focused ranger, the abilities are still very much in the realm of the rogue, so I don't think we need to worry about it.
    Last edited by Moxxmix; 2019-09-13 at 06:19 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #188
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    On the fluff text:
    I admit I've never really done more than glance over any class description. I'm definitely not a good person to ask on the topic.

    On design-to-mechanic:
    Speaking from a personal note, I prefer my rangers with spellcasting built in but that's not what this thread is about. I think everything comes together very well and will cover most concepts with minimal effort. If we make changes based on edge-cases that would probably be at a detriment to what is currently covered.

    The Stealth/Skirmisher focus will definitely be covered in our 'Xanathars'

    The guide aspect is the most challenging to design for, mechanically speaking. It constantly has to contend with the Favored Terrain problem, where the exploration rules just aren't all that fleshed out and may or may not be a big deal in any particular campaign. It's like building a rogue subclass based around being a crime lord. I think the best way to do it with the tools we have in this edition is to build around it, offering ribbons and benefits that also happen to apply to exploration rather than a full subclass or multiple features that primarily work for exploration and not much else. At least until we get a big splatbook that expands on exploration that we can work with.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    So, an idea bounced around my head for another subclass, for the skirmisher type. Was just going to note down a couple ideas for it, but it kept growing, so....


    Skirmisher

    Focus: Stealth and traps.

    Meta:

    - This character will probably pick the Land's Stride option from Nature's Boon, for extra movement speed and ignoring difficult terrain. Very difficult to catch if stealth fails. Second choice would be the Camouflage option, for invisibility on hiding, which, at 9th level, is a good follow-on to Hide as a bonus action at 7th.

    - Works extra well against surprised targets. Prep requirements means setting up ambushes, which means scouting requirements. Bonus to stealthy movement supports that.

    - Can add difficult terrain, which, in conjunction with prone or restrained status traps, helps in containing targets. (A proned target can't get out of a small trap area in one turn.)

    - Primary stat is Wisdom, rather that direct combat stats.

    - Didn't add double proficiency for level 3 skills because the base class gets Expertise at level 5.



    Skilled (3): Gain proficiency in stealth and two sets of tools.
    Dabbler (3): You may use half your proficiency score on any skill check using tools for which you are not proficient. (Can cobble together traps using cooking utensils or painter supplies or masonry tools or whatever. Home Alone/Jackie Chan traps.)

    Trapper (3): You may spend one minute to build a small trap that can target up to 3 creatures within an area of either a 10' radius or up to 12 adjacent squares, or spend one hour to build a large trap that can target up to 30 creatures within up an area of either a 30' radius or up to 120 adjacent squares. Make a Wisdom (Tool) check appropriate for the type of trap being created. [Determine DC? DC determined by status effect rider?] If successful, you may then maintain Concentration (like with a spell) to keep the trap ready until you activate it with an action.

    The Save DC for the trap is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier. If more creatures are in the trap's area than its capacity, select as many creatures to be affected as the trap's capacity. The targets must make either a Dex or Con save, as appropriate to the trap and determined by the DM. The trap does [1d10 + quarry die? scaling?] damage, plus one status effect [choice list?] against each creature that fails its save. A successful save does half damage and no status effect. The status effect lasts until the end of the creature's next non-surprised turn.


    (7) utility: You may Hide as a bonus action.
    (7) utility: You may move stealthily while traveling at a normal pace.
    (7) utility: Your traps may create difficult terrain in the area affected if the status effect they generate is either Prone or Restrained.

    (10) offense: Surprise! You may activate a surprise small-sized trap within 30' of you as an action. You may not use this feature again until you finish a short or long rest.

    (14) defense: Bunker. You activate a trap that displaces a large amount of material — a secretly dug pit, a collapsing wall, or other such distraction. You and any allies within 30' of you may hide in this location without being discovered for up to an hour. Leaving the location makes you discoverable again.
    (14) utility: Home Protection. You may create one trap that does not require concentration to maintain, and that will remain active for up to seven days. You may dismantle this trap at any time if you wish to build a different one.

    (18) minicap: Surprise, Mother****er! You may activate a surprise large-sized trap within 120' of you as an action. You may not use this feature again until you finish a long rest.


    (Yes, the minicap will need a name change.)


    Status effects for traps might include:
    Poisoned
    Blinded
    Deafened
    Prone
    Restrained
    Frightened
    Sleep (special: may not do damage with the trap; requires alchemist or herbalism tools and proficiency)

    Other statuses feel overboard for this.


    Needs specifics for damage, scaling, save DCs, etc, and it's hard to judge if it might be overpowered in some ways, or unworkable in others. But there are tons of little ways I could see this being used, and it feels like it would be fun.
    Last edited by Moxxmix; 2019-09-13 at 10:49 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I am trying to go through hunters and rangers in media. Aragorn could be a hunter or a warden, Legolas a hunter, Van Helsing or blade would likely be a hunter with a few cleric or paladin levels, goblinslayer would probably just be a hunter, Minsc and Boo could either be a beastmaster or hunter depending on the focus.

    The stalker/stealth class would be more along the lines of gloom stalker to me. First turn bonuses, more damage to creatures who haven't noticed you, better at hiding; an assassin lite. The same way warden is related to druids, this could be a step towards a more roguish subclass.

    We are missing the ranger that hunts the intelligent monsters. Geralt in the Witcher series, Dr. Who, and John Constantine are all some kind of semi-rangers that don't directly hunt. They often barter with the monsters and try to solve the conflicts in other ways than killing. Learn a bunch of monsters' languages is the easy part. All three of these have weirdly big toolboxes of how to deal with odd situations at a personal level (Sonic screwdriver, religious know-how and sacred artifacts, the music box in bloodborne, or weapon oils, concoctions, and sign magic).

    I also think we are missing a Colossus/giant/Titan Slayer subclass. You fight big things and have perks from it. Climbing skills and/or grappling hooks, avoiding big smashes, and dealing more damage depending on the size of the target? It should fit between Jack and the beanstalk, Legolas climbing mumakils, attack on Titan, David and goliath, (this could possibly work for Batman as well?). Is it well written enough, it could also apply to those who hunts other big things like dragons or such.

    On the topic of traps.
    These are just my opinions but I would prefer a list of trap types that works in different ways over 1 very generic trap that is hard to get nuanced enough. I think we easily could make a list of traps similar to the battlemaster, arcane archers, or four element monks lists of options. A rolling log trap should mechanically be different that a spike pit, a snare, or a poison dart trap by more than just giving different conditions. Further, I think a trapper/trapsmith could be a strong enough archetype to have it's own subclass without the stealth. I would also like if it had a ribbon/utility feature that you set up traps around your camp while you take a rest.
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2019-09-14 at 01:05 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    New Boon: Traps
    Can have up to Wis mod traps laid at any given time, which are an action to place within reach and take up a 5' radius. A creature that moves into the space or starts its turn there makes a save or is inflicted with one condition (Blinded, Deafened, Poisoned, Prone) until the start of their next turn.
    If selected a second time, a trap can be deployed up to 30 feet away as a bonus action and takes up a 10' radius area.

    Stalker (assumed boons Stealth and Traps):
    Level 3: When you roll initiative, on your first turn you gain an extra action (one attack only)
    Level 3: As a bonus action you can mark a creature that is unaware of you as your quarry.
    Level 7: Bonus action Hide, and your Hide action also works against Darkvision, Blindsight and Tremorsense
    Level 10: When attacking a quarry that is surprised or has not yet taken a turn in combat your Quarry die is treated as the maximum result.
    Level 14: Double quarry roll using the level 6 reaction when obscured or in shadow
    Level 18: Not sure yet

    Marauder (assumed boons stride and something else):
    Level 3: Superiority Dice & Manoeuvres (colossus slayer, skirmish, disrupt concentration, block teleportation, stop healing, teleport before attack, create difficult terrain, etc)
    Level 3: Your movement doesn't provoke Opp attacks from your Quarry
    Level 7: Learn creature resistances/immunities/vulnerabilities
    Level 10: When you take the attack action you can teleport up to 10' before each attack
    Level 14: When you roll initiative with no superiority dice you gain 1
    Level 18: Not sure yet

    Edit: On traps
    They are hard to do right. In D&D the party is usually the aggressor, and usually constantly moving (either through plot or through the dungeon). Traps are the opposite of an offensive, mobile style of play. Making an entire subclass (or even a feat!) around them is incredibly challenging to get right so that they aren't either nigh useless because of the constraints around their use or far too strong and causing the ranger to constantly stop progress in order to make use of them. Funnily enough you see the same issue play out in similar places like shooter games.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-09-14 at 01:59 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot
    We are missing the ranger that hunts the intelligent monsters. Geralt in the Witcher series, Dr. Who, and John Constantine are all some kind of semi-rangers that don't directly hunt. They often barter with the monsters and try to solve the conflicts in other ways than killing.
    I kinda see that as a Hunter that took Investigation as the skill pick. Bargaining isn't really a class feature in the game, and I don't think it should be. An Int/Cha focused Hunter would be perfectly viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot
    I also think we are missing a Colossus/giant/Titan Slayer subclass.
    If we rebuild the Monster Slayer subclass from Xanathar's, I'd put it in there. The rest of the stuff you describe, I'd think of as more generic ranger-y stuff than subclass-specific.


    ... And come back to see Kane0's post. Nice stuff. Good options to work with, and making traps part of the Nature's Boon section is an interesting alternative, though it might start getting a bit dense compared to how many picks are available.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    The current monster slayer is more of a mage-hunter than a Colossus Slayer. Kane0's marauder is a better fit for this to me. Add some climbing or vertical movement to it and I would be ok with it. Edit: the teleportation could just be re-fluffed to fit that. Edit again: the marauder looks like a more interesting take on the horizon walker the more that I look at it! Well done!

    I would be fine with having more boons. In the worst case, you could have a sub-class that got to pick 2 additional level of boons.

    Add a boon that is something like this and an investigation hunter would work for me to do the social monster confrontations.
    New boon: Monsterspeaker
    You can communicate with non-humanoids who speak a language you don't know. You must observe these creatures interacting with one another for at least 1 day, after which you learn a handful of important words, expressions, and gestures – enough to communicate on a rudimentary level.

    If you take this boon again, when you communicate with them this way, you can use your Wisdom modifier instead of Charisma when doing Persuasion skill checks against them.
    Last edited by Fnissalot; 2019-09-14 at 03:08 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot View Post
    Add some climbing or vertical movement to it and I would be ok with it.
    Thats already covered by a variant rule in the DMG actually, works similar to grappling IIRC.

    Edit: theres also downtime rules for learning languages plus comprehend languages and the like. And the Linguist feat, but we don’t talk about the Linguist feat.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-09-14 at 03:39 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Moxxmix View Post
    Yeah, that describes the problem pretty well. What I ended up doing was focusing on what seemed to be a common point of intersection among the various themes: being on the border between civilization and absolute wilderness. The ranger in the PHB is described mostly from the perspective of being in the wilderness, but their goals are really about defending civilization from the wilds (and in the Batman case, the "wilds" is the unbound madness of the criminal underbelly). They straddle the edge between pure primal (such as barbarians and druids) and the civil (where you shift into ordinary fighters).

    So I tried to evoke that element, of trying to protect the civilized world from the uncivilized world, but needing to make use of the uncivilized world's tools because the civilized world's tools are designed to deal with the civilized world's problems.


    I'll admit that part of my motivation was keeping the text short enough to fit on one page, so I sort of merged the Independent Adventurers and Deadly Hunters sections. I wouldn't mind expanding on things if we can get a truly solid narrative to establish the point of having a ranger class.
    I think the wilderness vs civilization is an interesting theme to explore! I didn't edit your text, as I wasn't sure if we all wanted to go down that path. And just editing the phb text is way easier than starting a description from scratch. Though the phb focuses much more on the "borderlands" theme than our more hunter-focused rework does.

    People mentioned that the Warden was a bit lackluster in terms of flavorful feats. I'm not sure I agree, as getting spells and customizing them is a pretty big thing. But what do you guys see as the fluff theme for the Warden? Is it a protector? Is it elemental or more spiritual? Is it druid-light?

    I guess it's kind of a plus that it can currently cover it all, but again makes it hard to write flavor text.

    On traps and subclasses: Shouldn't we finish the core ranger and the initial 3 sub-classes before branching out? Possibly make a new thread for the new sub-classes?

  16. - Top - End - #196
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot
    The current monster slayer is more of a mage-hunter than a Colossus Slayer.
    I thought so too, at first, but when reviewing the Monster Slayer features, they really apply to a lot of different things that even non-caster monsters can do. It certainly meshes well with the Mage Slayer feat, and could be a mage hunter, but it isn't quite that restricted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnissalot
    I would be fine with having more boons. In the worst case, you could have a sub-class that got to pick 2 additional level of boons.
    Nature's Boon does lend itself to allowing some decent variety in the class. I expect we'll end up coming back and revising it after we work through the extended subclasses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxby View Post
    People mentioned that the Warden was a bit lackluster in terms of flavorful feats. I'm not sure I agree, as getting spells and customizing them is a pretty big thing. But what do you guys see as the fluff theme for the Warden? Is it a protector? Is it elemental or more spiritual? Is it druid-light?
    It's not (for me, at least) that the Warden doesn't have some nice features. It's that I'm not entirely sure what the Warden's role is, other than to be the 1/3 caster for the class. Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster each build on something that helps define them in particular (cast+attack for EK, Mage Hand for AT). Warden starts off with Primal Awareness, but doesn't really take it anywhere. The rest of the features are useful, but don't really form anything coherent, to say, "This is what a Warden is."

    In general, each subclass is expected to define itself with its level 3 feature, and then expand on that in later features. Same thing as with the base classes. Warden just doesn't feel like it's done that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxby View Post
    On traps and subclasses: Shouldn't we finish the core ranger and the initial 3 sub-classes before branching out? Possibly make a new thread for the new sub-classes?
    Oh, definitely. I just had a moment of my muse kicking in, and wanted to make sure it wasn't forgotten. I don't suggest we spend any significant time on alternate subclasses for now; they're just evidence that there's solid design space to expand on the ranger concept (something that was possibly in question in the thread that spawned this one), and that ideas are recorded for reference, for when we're ready to move to the next stage.

  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    There was once a UA with something for the ranger we could probably steal some Warden fluff from
    https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/d...e_0117JCMM.pdf

    Edit: We could model the Warden being a protector or defender, even extending that to keeper of 'the old ways'. A more bulky style of ranger is also a mechanical niche that is missing, so if the mechanics aren't integrating well we can use that as a guideline.

    Edit again: Actually looking at the Warden we have indeed not given it as much scrutiny as the other two. Does anyone feel like level 3 and 7 are a bit lacklustre? I could swap around Ritual Casting and Wildsense, then add in a new feature at level 3. Maybe gain Temp HP when you cast a druid spell or mark a Quarry? Levels 10, 14 and 18 look alright though Rangers already get a reaction at level 6 which conflicts with level 14.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-09-14 at 06:10 PM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    There was once a UA with something for the ranger we could probably steal some Warden fluff from
    ---snip---
    Edit: We could model the Warden being a protector or defender, even extending that to keeper of 'the old ways'. A more bulky style of ranger is also a mechanical niche that is missing, so if the mechanics aren't integrating well we can use that as a guideline.

    Edit again: Actually looking at the Warden we have indeed not given it as much scrutiny as the other two. Does anyone feel like level 3 and 7 are a bit lacklustre? I could swap around Ritual Casting and Wildsense, then add in a new feature at level 3. Maybe gain Temp HP when you cast a druid spell or mark a Quarry? Levels 10, 14 and 18 look alright though Rangers already get a reaction at level 6 which conflicts with level 14.
    I think this is a good idea. We could play up the "borderland" protector for the Warden.

    I was thinking about temp HP myself, as the eldritch knight and the arcane trickster get an offensive and a utility caster feature respectively. This leaves a good role for the Warden being defensive both in terms of ranger subclass, but also in terms of third casters. Even though the eldritch knight relies a lot on defensive spells.

    I've seen people arguing that rangers should get prof in Con saves at some point. What about giving the Warden prof in Con saves while concentrating on a spell? And maybe 1dx * spell lvl of temp HP when they cast a spell? This could be their third lvl feature, as it would scale with spell lvl.

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    confused Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I'm creating a classic (non fey) Firbolg Warden using this rework. I just wanted again to complement you all for the amazing effort and care yo have put into this project. The converted Ranger spells are just spot on, too!

    I actually think the Warden is in a great place right now. You have to remember that each spell functions as a class feature on its own. It's not lacking in Flavor or function. I will be creating the tough defender of the wild you talked about. Go check out MrRhexx on YouTube, his video on Firbolgs just screams Warden to me.

    It's really hard making a class, since as a player you naturally want it to be able to DO ALL THE STUFF. I think this is the case with the Warden. I reeeaaallly want ritual casting earlier, but that's just me being greedy wanting to play a fighter and a druid at the same time. If you want to give it more stuff, why not give it something that feels powerful, but isn't. A flavorful ribbon. How about "When you reduce an aberration or undead creature to 0 hit points, you gain temporary hit points equal to your level" . It really pushes the defender of the wild Archetype, gives the player a fun feature to get excited about, but doesn't add too much power.
    .
    Warden
    "I help those native to my forest, hunt those that seek to upset its balance, and guide those through it that mean it no harm"
    .

    The specifically 'unnatrual' monster types are a great way to get this across. I think the Emerald Enclave had a similar goal.

    Is there a reason why great weapon fighting style is not presented as an option?
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-09-17 at 08:06 PM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Looking over Rituals and THP numbers i'm thinking:

    - Move Ritual casting to level 3 alongside spellcasting. The druid list contains 4 rituals at 1st level (5 if we add Alarm), another 4 at 2nd level (again 5 if we add Silence) and a final 4 at 3rd level which is perfect for our purposes
    - In place at level 7 add a feature that grants you (or an ally you can see within 30 feet of you) Temp HP when you cast a spell equal to three times the spell's level, which last one hour. It's not a lot, but then again it isn't supposed to be.

    Great Weapon style was omitted because it isnt there for the PHB ranger, but i see no issue adding it in.

    And thankyou this has been very enjoyable thanks to you guys.

    Edit: And with the level 14 reaction i'm thinking of changing it to add onto the level 6 reaction to avoid conflict.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-09-18 at 01:03 AM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Looking over Rituals and THP numbers i'm thinking:

    - Move Ritual casting to level 3 alongside spellcasting. The druid list contains 4 rituals at 1st level (5 if we add Alarm), another 4 at 2nd level (again 5 if we add Silence) and a final 4 at 3rd level which is perfect for our purposes
    - In place at level 7 add a feature that grants you (or an ally you can see within 30 feet of you) Temp HP when you cast a spell equal to three times the spell's level, which last one hour. It's not a lot, but then again it isn't supposed to be.

    Great Weapon style was omitted because it isnt there for the PHB ranger, but i see no issue adding it in.

    And thankyou this has been very enjoyable thanks to you guys.

    Edit: And with the level 14 reaction i'm thinking of changing it to add onto the level 6 reaction to avoid conflict.
    Since you get 12-14 rituals available with the druid list as you list them, Kane0, it seems quite powerfull to get ritual casting. I don't realy know if it is better balance-wise to get this at 3rd or 7th lvl, but it's quite a boost to the ranger.

    Yeah, it was mentioned earlier, that great weapon fighting isn't part of the ranger theme. Looking at hunters in the real world, I would tend to agree. You can still make a GWF ranger though, by for instance taking the +1 AC fighting style. It won't be as effective at dealing damage as a barbarian or a fighter, but then maybe that's fine.

    Good catch on the lvl 14 warden ability and the lvl 6 Quarry feature. The lvl 14 ability does seem to be a kind of upgrade to the quarry feature, so I think it makes perfect sense to highlight it as such.

    Bjarkmundur: I think you have a good point in "wanting it all" in a homebrew class.
    Concerning the abaration/undead feature, I think we should avoid this, as it falls into the same trap as the Favoured Enemy feature does. Where the player is constantly waiting for a specific monster type to come up, and might feel wanting if the DM doesn't serve them up regularly.

    All in all, it does look like the rework is almost complete from a mechanical standpoint. And what a beaut :)

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I could totally see a woodcutter ranger wielding a big two-handed axe. I might be wrong but was not barbarians included into the game after rangers? For example, Minsc was a ranger with a big sword, not a barbarian since there were no barbarian in the base game of baldurs gate.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    My only issue with ritual spells is the mileage it gives you. Being a third-caster means ritual casting is a HUGE boost, due to how few spell slots you normally get. I'm pretty sure we're just being greedy if we move it up to lvl 3.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Just finished outlining my Lumberjack Defender of the Forest and Guide to its Guests. The ranger spells really make the whole fighter-druid thing come together!

    ...still wish I had ritual casting...

    Trailblazer's climb and swim speed seem kinda out of place, I think its us being greedy again. I left it out of my character, it seemed more intuitive without it.

    ...I'm going to give myself ritual casting...

    I'm really looking forward to test it out sometime :D

    ...I don't think I'd play this without ritual casting at 3...

    I'm also not a fan of the Fey part of Wild Sense, but that's mostly as a DM. I either have to count a list of 100 fey creatures present in a forest, or make my game sound unpopulated and ill-thought out. Can we narrow it down to a single stat block containing those keywords? Instead of asking "Hey, how many hundred twig blights are there within a mile?" it becomes "We are hunting a pixies to use as currency for dealing with a hag. Can I use my Wild Sense to see if there are any pixies nearby?"

    I'm a big fan of "It does what it says on the tin" design philosophy (I'm looking at you Find Traps). It's obviously a feature meant for tracking down something you are actively looking for, or determining the safest route through the wild. Do you mind if we add the bolded sentence to the description?

    "As an action you can detect the number and direction of all Aberrations, Monstrosities, Fey, Dragons and Undead within one mile of you for up to one minute. This can be used to track down a specific monster type or determine the safest route through the territory with ease. Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.."
    This is quite similar how Suggestion has examples and explanations on how it could be used, so we are not out of line with 5e design habits at all. I think steering the player more into questions like "Can I use Wild Sense to find the Green Dragon we are looking for" rather than"I know the number and direction of all dragons in the area. How many are there and where are they?" is a small change with a big positive impact. And you know I love small changes that do a lot of work.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-09-18 at 04:17 AM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I dunno man, a climb speed sounds perfect for someone who makes a living felling trees.

    With regards to ritual casting my thought was that because you're a 1/3 caster you're getting Alarm, Detect Magic/Poison/Disease and Speak with Animals two levels late, Animal Messenger, Silence and Skywrite four levels late and Meld Into Stone, Water Breathing and Water Walk eight levels late. The casting progression means if you get rituals at level 3 or 7 only changes if you have access to 1st level rituals from levels 3 to 7, as that's when you get second level spells anyways.

    Edit: By the way your lumberjack knows two Druid cantrips if he's a warden.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-09-18 at 05:33 AM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Guidence is all I need ;)
    Yeah, I'm definitely using ritual casting from 3.

    Hmm, I'd personally love to see the hunter get a feature thst competes for his bonus action, hopefully something that rivals TWF. Right now that subclass is a trap option and pretty much pointless if you're not using TWF. Is that intentional? It just feels very underwhelming when compared to the power and utility of an animal companion or spellcasting.

    The hunter is consistently underwhelming in damage compared to the beastmaster with any other weapon than TWF, and by a huge margin.

    I'm looking for a bonus action that increases damage roughly by 5 points of damage at level 3.

    Bonus action to gain advantage if the target has no creatures within 5 feet of it? Call it Natural Selection? It's thematic, it's a niche, it's extremely satisfying to use, I think it's perfect. Thoughts?

    Cull the Herd is probably a better name. The predator theme is stronk.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-09-19 at 08:42 PM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    Hmm, I'd personally love to see the hunter get a feature that competes for his bonus action, hopefully something that rivals TWF. Right now that subclass is a trap option and pretty much pointless if you're not using TWF. Is that intentional? It just feels very underwhelming when compared to the power and utility of an animal companion or spellcasting.

    What's the theme of the hunter anyways?
    Keen Eye
    Feats (Shield Master, Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Crossbow Expert, even Charger and Magic Initiate)
    Multiclassing (Barbarian Rage, Bardic Inspiration, Cleric Channel Divinity/Spells, Druid Wildshape/Spells, Fighter Second Wind, Monk Martial Arts, Rogue Cunning Action, Sorcerer/Wizard/Warlock Spells)
    Two-Weapon-Fighting
    Magic items (Scimitar of Speed, Dancing Sword, Bag of Tricks, Prayer Beads, Boots of Speed, anything your DM comes up with)

    The hunter not having a built-in bonus action is a benefit in its own right, one might say a benefit in disguise. There is nothing competing with all the other options already on offer where Beastmasters and Warden don't have that luxury and have to choose one or the other.

    It's not a trap option. A trap option is something that seems good but in fact isn't and the Hunter doesn't have extra action costs attached to anything he gets. The entire premise is minimal opportunity cost.

    Thematically, the Hunter is the most basic form of Ranger and what it says on the tin. It's the frontiersman with no extra bits to dilute that. It's one of those cases where you don't actually want to analyse it for hours on end because it really is that simple.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    I don't think magic items, feats and Multiclassing is an excuse to be 5 points behind its other subclasses at level 3. Besides, Cull the Herd ticks all the boxes. It's unique, thematic AND solves a problem. Am I wrong?

    ... And are you suggesting the rogue would be more fun to play without Cunning Action?
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-09-19 at 08:46 PM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    The level 3 Hunter gains a passive +1-2 Quarry damage
    The level 3 Warden gains at most two uses of Hunter's Mark (bonus action, one minute each, concentration, +1d8 damage once per round)
    The level 3 Beastmaster using their companion as a bonus action can deal something like 3d4 +2 damage until it loses its 12 20 to 30 hit points (Edit: which may explain why it has a flat 4 per level in the PHB, the +10 we're giving makes it pretty beefy when you initially get it for the damage output it provides)

    It's a matter of perspective. It might appear boring but I wouldn't call it underwhelming. If you're truly worried about damage numbers TWF is there for you and needs zero investment, but picking other weapon options won't hamstring you.

    I'm saying that as you progress in the game you come across more competition for your bonus action. The more we throw in (wanting it all) the more competition is added, and I firmly believe that we shouldn't completely fill every space just because we can.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2019-09-19 at 09:06 PM.

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    Default Re: By request: Workshopping another Ranger

    Limit Quarry to once per turn? That keeps the edge of being apple to apply and trigger with TWF, but keeps it from becoming ridiculous by douvle-proccing (or triple, with extra attack) . It smoothes the curve from the other end.
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-09-19 at 09:12 PM.

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