The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I disagree. Bank and bank are two different nouns derived from Italian and Danish respectively that just happen to sound and be spelled the same. Mary Sue is just experiencing a shift in meaning.
    Fair. I actually switched from using an actual insult, since board rules, so I didn't think the example all the way through. Definition shifts happen often enough, so lets say (google a mild example or two), "hussy", which used to mean "housewife" and now... doesn't.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-08-28 at 08:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  2. - Top - End - #782
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I wouldn't consider that equivalent to even corporal, and a corporal is not in the command structure.
    That is technically incorrect.
    A corporal is the lowest level of NCO: Non Commissioned Officer, just as the Ensign or Second Lieutenant is the lowest level of officer.

    In an infantry unit, the lowest level of unit breakdown/command chain is the Fire Team.
    Corporals are frequently fire team leaders and are accountable to their squad leader for their fire team's performance.

    A corporal can be the second-in-command of a squad to the sergeant, but that seems to vary quite a bit.

    From the bottom up: Fire Team - Squad - Platoon - Company and so on.
    As an example: (By the Table of Organization that I was familiar with) a doctrinal USMC squad at full strength 13 people made up of one squad leader + 3 fire teams. Each fire team is four people: one fire team leader and three members.
    The Doctrinal US Army squad (from a ToE that has probably changed again) was 11 with subordinate fire teams, and oddly enough that is exactly how many troop seats fit into a UH-60 Blackhawk. (In case you are wondering: that was on purpose, based on an old friend of mine who worked on stuff like that in the Pentagon back in the 90's).

    So, strictly speaking, and particularly in late 20th century and early 21st century military operations that are very dispersed and spread out, the corporal is the a part of the command structure for privates/private soldiers. (And in the USMC there are lance corporals which of course complicates it a bit more ...)

    Anyway, since we are splitting hairs, there ya go.

    Howeve Luke's situation isn't infantry but rather a flying unit. When it comes to flying, the lowest "unit" is typically a section (two ship, let by a section leader) and then a flight (four ship made up of two sections) thence to squadron and so on. But that's rather NATO centrick, the details of a flying organization will vary by nation and service, and then there are "detachments" which are a whole different animal.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-08-28 at 08:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Player agency doesn't mean they get to roll for everything. Agency means that they control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) or so I am told ... by 2D8HP

  3. - Top - End - #783
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    That is technically incorrect.
    I'm confused, are NCOs part of command? Did Heinlein lie to me when he explained, in great and hilarious detail, that one needs to be a commissioned officer to be legally allowed to give orders, and not just pass orders along?

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-08-28 at 08:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  4. - Top - End - #784
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I'm confused, are NCOs part of command? Did Heinlein lie to me when he explained, in great and hilarious detail, that one needs to be a commissioned officer to be legally allowed to give orders, and not just pass orders along?

    Grey Wolf
    The corporal is a part of the chain of command and no, Heinlein didn't lie to you. That is why I observed that you are technically incorrect.
    Heinlein's data points refer to a 40's - 50's era in the military, but even then an NCO can issue lawful orders, it's just that their scope is far less than that of commissioned officers, and in the majority of cases what Heinlein points to is that the orders being given by the NCO are in support of the orders received from higher up the chain of command, or as he puts it "passing them along." But there is a distinction in small unit operations: once the mission type orders are given, the "how" orders are frequently given by an NCO, be it Gunnery Sergeant, Sergeant, or Corporal. (Or in a Naval organization, a Petty officer or Chief Petty Officer)

    FWIW: when I was in the military, a subordinate failing to follow the orders of a petty officer (NCO) or Chief Petty Officer (NCO) could depending on the situation result in a formal charge under the UCMJ. The most egregious case I recall was a sailor failing to follow the orders of a petty officer in charge of a watch section on a ship. That went to Captain's Mast.

    Scope varies with the level within in the chain of command. Similarly, the Article 15 Authority (Punitive) of an Army Captain is of a lesser scope than that of a Colonel or General.

    Also, Heinlein was writing to entertain.

    In terms of scope, a corporal can't make the command decision that "this division will take this hill" since that is within the scope of the division commander, who is a general. When the corporal is in charge of a guard section covering a part of a perimeter, he'll have occasion to issue orders to his subordinates and expect them to be obeyed.

    Scope is the difference.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-08-28 at 09:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Player agency doesn't mean they get to roll for everything. Agency means that they control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) or so I am told ... by 2D8HP

  5. - Top - End - #785
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I'm confused, are NCOs part of command? Did Heinlein lie to me when he explained, in great and hilarious detail, that one needs to be a commissioned officer to be legally allowed to give orders, and not just pass orders along?

    Grey Wolf
    Regardless of how it works in that military, structure, Luke clearly gives multiple orders ("we're going in and we're going in full throttle," "Increase speed, full throttle," "get clear, Wedge. You can't do any more good back there.") during his trench run, just as previous trench run leaders did, so it's safe to assume he's allowed to do that.
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  6. - Top - End - #786
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Regardless of how it works in that military, structure, Luke clearly gives multiple orders ("we're going in and we're going in full throttle," "Increase speed, full throttle," "get clear, Wedge. You can't do any more good back there.") during his trench run, just as previous trench run leaders did, so it's safe to assume he's allowed to do that.
    In that respect, he was acting as either a flight lead or a section lead ... if one is trying to map that to how the flying units that Lucas was trying to model (carrier fighter units) tended to operate. (TV Ref: Black Sheep Squadron was IIRC contemporary ...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Player agency doesn't mean they get to roll for everything. Agency means that they control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) or so I am told ... by 2D8HP

  7. - Top - End - #787
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    And just as importantly, Dante did not use the Aeneid as a source for Purgatory and Heaven and as such Virgil does not guide him there.
    {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-08-28 at 11:44 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #788
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    The Mod on the Silver Mountain: No more Dante in this thread.
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  9. - Top - End - #789
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain: No more Dante in this thread.
    I guess we're Dante with that topic then.
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  10. - Top - End - #790
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I guess we're Dante with that topic then.
    Now then, which Rey do we go from here?
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  11. - Top - End - #791
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The Mod on the Silver Mountain: No more Dante in this thread.
    Randal's still cool, right?

  12. - Top - End - #792
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2019-08-28 at 09:55 PM.
    Attention LotR fans
    Spoiler: LotR
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    The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

  13. - Top - End - #793
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Randal's still cool, right?
    Sure. He was supposed to be there today, after all.
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  14. - Top - End - #794
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sure. He was supposed to be there today, after all.
    "Screw me?"

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