OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

[Goblin_Priest]

Ok... I'm nearly speechless, as that is fascinating. Why is Hel cruel to the dwarves? I assumed it was because she got a terrible deal, by her father.

In dnd lore, is Hel normally vicious towards souls or is that specific to OOTS?

Well, she's an evil god. I would kinda expect things like this from evil gods. They weren't her worshippers, after all, they got sent there despite themselves.

Plus, that's all she's got, and it's far less than she was looking forward to. She got tricked and she's resentful, on top of being a petty and spiteful evil god to begin with. They serve as a constant reminder of how she got completely played.

[Worldsong]

I mean that's a big part of it, if the same stuff happened to Thor (suddenly the amount of clerics significantly increases relative to the whole and losing a year of souls) he wouldn't exactly be happy but he'd be nowhere near this level, its that it happened to the already pretty weak that pushed her into this territory.

Can I just say "remember what we said last time"? Or do I have to actually make all of the points again? I'll just repeat one of them and tell you that no, these are not the "greatest dwarves military force" and they are no in the "great dwarves fortress" nothing at all implies that, the fact there were like four guards implies otherwise.

Be fair, I think we've seen at least eight guards.

That said, Deuterio, repeatedly ignoring how people point out that your assumptions are incorrect doesn't return your assumptions to being valid. As Schroeswald said, this has been done to death, not because it's a worthwhile discussion but because you just keep trying.

[Mad Humanist]

Hmm...I wonder if Loki is going to instruct his conveniently-nearby cleric to do something about the Cleric of Hel currently wandering the dwarven capitol?

I think that would probably count as interference (not that it would bother Loki if he thought he could get away with it). Rather I expect Hilgya to casually end her with a flame strike or two probably as a punchline to the strip.

[KorvinStarmast]

Others answered this already but I want to point out that Xykon is definitely a dictator. He took over a tribe of ogres, a community of goblins and a self-described horde of hobgoblins before conquering and enslaving a human city. That Redcloak is doing the day-to-day ruling doesn’t mean Xykon isn’t at the top of the food chain there. In fact his end goal is to be a world dictator.

Yes, he's been interested in ruling the world as his long term goal.

"and that was with the backup of his mary-sue clan that roflstomps everything in their path, including the vampires that in turn roflstomped the next greatest dwarven military forces that were guarding the greatest dwarven fortress that can afford no-save petrification traps but were completely powerless to stop the vampires from taking over.

Neither of your asserted "roflstomps" exist in the strip. That is your description, not what the narrative has presented. As an aside, the blue horned exotic dwarf fighter is still rolling down an endless hill somewhere on another plane, an old dwarf died - eaten by a large sightless worm - and this building is not "the greatest dwarven fortress." It's a meeting hall with some magical protections. Suggest you read the web comic and the story that the rest of us are reading, rather than inventing one from whole cloth. Otherwise, we have nothing to talk about with you on this sub forum.

[Schroeswald]

Most of these vampires were low-level, many of which presumably vampire spawns. I don't see the need to call the dwarves mary-sues. Rey is a Mary Sue, she can just do everything, without effort, training, or explanation. These dwarves? What did they do that was so special? Absolutely nothing. They just dogpiled their foes. Vampires can only dominate one target at a time, and action economy stronger favors overwhelming numbers. They also probably had off-screen buffing, and Protection from Evil is a low level spell that many classes get which prevents domination.

I didn't really like the resolution of the fight with Durkon*, but I don't really have any issues with the resolution of this fight.

Emphasis mine.
Oh no! A person living their life in a dangerous scavenger planet is good at fighting! What effort, training or explanation could there be! What explanation could there be for her powerful force-sensitivity, ignoring the fact that super powerful force sensitives have been established as existing in this galaxy since the first movie!

Be fair, I think we've seen at least eight guards.

That said, Deuterio, repeatedly ignoring how people point out that your assumptions are incorrect doesn't return your assumptions to being valid. As Schroeswald said, this has been done to death, not because it's a worthwhile discussion but because you just keep trying.

Okay, the force is not able to taken out by starting Belkar alone, just current Elan alone, didn’t bother to actually count them all.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

A god with the emotional maturity of a child. You would think after thousands and thousands of years she might grow up a little or learn something. Guess she is jus like some real world people I know.

To bring up a point (using this post as an example to lead in), no, she wouldn't. Look at Odin. He's clearly having his thought processes altered drastically and is still in terminal recovery several worlds later. I think Loki is realizing, just now, that his bet may have had a drastic and potentially irreversible effect on his daughter.

I don't even think it's _primarily the hatred. Despite his mantra of literally only caring about himself I think he does care about other people (such as Thor and, in this case, Hel). He was so reckless because he was acting like this was all fun and games without thinking about whether this could really hurt or even kill his daughter, and further that there's any number of things he could have done to stop the dementation process from advancing as hard as it did before it got to this state where she's functionally insane and irrational.

We know how crazy and utterly unreasonable she is in the present day, and we assume that's how she was thousands of years ago simply through connecting the dots. She could have been much more calm, collected, and normal if still evil as hel. Merely having the cardinal sin of being an easy mark for tricks, instead of being out and out murderous and demented. I think the largest pain for Loki here is guilt.

[Peelee]

Loki: "Your scheme only worked because nobody could've expected vampires using their (un)natural abilities to energy drain, quickly multiplicate and mind-control people."

...

Really?

That's like saying that nobody could've expected giants to smash stuff and throw rocks.

Or that nobody could expect fire elementals to burn stuff.

Was this seriously the first time in this world that vampires tried such a thing? It doesn't even take many, just one dedicated vampire and some isolated village or a dozen.

If vampires are a common, or even not uncommon, or even not rare, or even not super-rare, sure. But...

Being a vampire is super-rare

[TheTinyMan]

Oooouch, good to have a reminder that as evil as she's been, she's trying desperately to not be intentionally starved out by her own parent.

[drazen]

Most of these vampires were low-level, many of which presumably vampire spawns. I don't see the need to call the dwarves mary-sues. Rey is a Mary Sue, she can just do everything, without effort, training, or explanation. These dwarves? What did they do that was so special? Absolutely nothing. They just dogpiled their foes. Vampires can only dominate one target at a time, and action economy stronger favors overwhelming numbers. They also probably had off-screen buffing, and Protection from Evil is a low level spell that many classes get which prevents domination.

I didn't really like the resolution of the fight with Durkon*, but I don't really have any issues with the resolution of this fight.

Indeed. While I think Durkon's clan came running late, Sigdi sent a message, and I'm sure it mentioned vampires. Maybe some of the extended Thundershield family had Protection from Evil clasps like Belkar; presumably, they would still work after going through the barrier. There were 3 vampires; I suspect Curly is relatively low-level as a cleric compared to the rest of them (the blue-tunic clerics seem to be lower-level). Gontor* and Sandy (aka "the other one" with no name) were sent to the chamber in advance to prepare for the vote. Gontor comments he had a lot more spells before the Order and the dwarves show up. Presumably he and Sandy used up a lot of spells on something, thus the vampires could only use Dominate inside the orange barrier, as they needed something in reserve, and the barrier would dispel all magical effects.

As for overpowering vampires? Curly was in the blue chamber in #1168 - someone had to manage the meeting so it was not simply suspended (oddly, had they simply let that happen, they might have had a better chance of succeeding, because then they could just Dominate them all with no protections and have Gontor's card-table vote). So that leaves two vampires and a few low level, obviously ceremonial guards. Durkon engaged Gontor* directly. Some of the dwarves dealt with the guards (the fact that they did so with relative ease would seem to have demonstrated that they were low level) That just left Sandy, who dealt with Not-Thad and then had Minrah and several others attacking her simultaneously. Durkula's dominate trick worked due to the Order's dispelled protections, and he had a lot more vampires to attempt Domination. Also, a bunch of mid-level dwarves may be a little stronger-willed than the likes of Elan, Belkar, and Haley.

So most of the dwarves engaged Sandy - only Logann, Sigdi, and Durkon approached the inner chamber initially, and there were plenty of other dwarves in that fight. It was just sheer numbers, and Minrah held her own in the first fight and was the primary person engaging Sandy. As for Gontor*, he allowed his rage and arrogance to overcome him, which meant he was defenseless against the bum rush at the end. I'm more curious how Minrah got her hands on Sandy for that final fling into the sunlight (you'd think Sandy would mist out, or can a vampire not do that when grappled?)

The resolution seems mostly fine, although I have found this final fight to be a little more disjointed than the endings to the last couple of books. It feels like it skipped around a lot and sometimes didn't flow very well from a storytelling perspective, for me at least. The story itself for the Council mini-arc doesn't seem to have many holes in it, though.

[skim172]

"And then they'll make grand works about you in which you are naught but fiction! A whole saga of works, in some sort of moving picture medium perhaps - a kinematic-graphic fictional universe, if you will! In which you get routinely beaten up by a rich boy, an octogenarian, a redhead who does kung fu, a man with emotional problems, and some dude with a bow and arrow! And instead of gods, you'll be, like, space aliens or something, I dunno, it's not that clear - but it really won't matter in the long run, I think. Also, you're, like, evil in this universe."


We live in Hel's reality.

[The MunchKING]

That would defeat the point of him being forgotten and dying.

That would just turn him into an obnoxious weak twit, but he would still survive...

[skim172]

That would defeat the point of him forgotten and dying.

That would just turn him into an obnoxious weak twit, but he would still survive...

"And you'll be played by Tom Hiddleston! Who is a fine actor, sure, but will have nowhere near the earning power or celebrity pull of some of his contemporaries! Muahahaha!"

"And people will call you a twit online! Not just any people - the Munch King! He's royalty!"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"And you'll be played by Tom Hiddleston! Who is a fine actor, sure, but will have nowhere near the earning power or celebrity pull of some of his contemporaries! Muahahaha!"

"And people will call you a twit online! Not just any people - the Munch King! He's royalty!"

"But you'll be hailed as a top bad guy. Like, not Kingpin or Thanos, sure, but up there! Much better than the elf guy who you overshadowed! And you'll have it better than me, Hel, who only gets one film! Wait, maybe I didn't think this through"

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

Loki: "Your scheme only worked because nobody could've expected vampires using their (un)natural abilities to energy drain, quickly multiplicate and mind-control people."

That's not what he said. Why are you using quotation marks when you are substantially changing the meaning of what was said?

I'll once again suggest that you try reading the actual strip, not the one you invented in your head to complain about.

[Quebbster]

Presumably he and Sandy used up a lot of spells on something, thus the vampires could only use Dominate inside the orange barrier, as they needed something in reserve, and the barrier would dispel all magical effects.

Ponchula mentioned she had used a lot of the Quick raise spell Before the dining hall battle. Presumably the Ex-arch and Sandy did the same to split the burden. As evil clerics, they haven't had a chance to refresh their spell slots since it hasn't been dusk yet while the Durkon. Minrah and the others refreshed their spells at dawn.

[D.One]

"But you'll be hailed as a top bad guy. Like, not Kingpin or Thanos, sure, but up there! Much better than the elf guy who you overshadowed! And you'll have it better than me, Hel, who only gets one film! Wait, maybe I didn't think this through"

Grey Wolf

:loki: "Pumpkin, the way I see it, I've got a better deal and have more screen time than many heroes and so-called protagonists."

[Schroeswald]

:loki: "Pumpkin, the way I see it, I've got a better deal and have more screen time than many heroes and so-called protagonists."

I even get a TV show, posthumously!

[Goblin_Priest]

Emphasis mine.
Oh no! A person living their life in a dangerous scavenger planet is good at fighting! What effort, training or explanation could there be! What explanation could there be for her powerful force-sensitivity, ignoring the fact that super powerful force sensitives have been established as existing in this galaxy since the first movie!

And which super powerful force sensitives would we be talking about here? In the first movie, we see... Obie-Wan, Darth Vader, and Luke. Am I missing someone here? The first two trained since a very early age all the way up to adulthood, relatively old actually, taught by great masters of their time. The third one, Luke, is a total clutz the whole movie, and even after great training in the second movie, still loses. It's only up into the third movie, after lots of training and mentoring by master jedi Yoda, that he can finally compete with Darth Vader, and for a good part of the fight, he's losing.

Rey, without training, does mind tricks right away and defeats the powerful and trained Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel. Something she never held before, and which isn't to be wielded like a staff. She does everything better than any previously shown character despite having less reason to achieve it than any previously shown character. Being a junk trader explains nothing.

She is basically the very definition of a Mary Sue.

Maybe ROS will redeem her in some way, to be seen.

[Fyraltari]

Welp, this is a Star Wars thread now.

[Peelee]

Rey, without training, does mind tricks right away and defeats the powerful and trained Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel. Something she never held before, and which isn't to be wielded like a staff. She does everything better than any previously shown character despite having less reason to achieve it than any previously shown character. Being a junk trader explains nothing.

She is basically the very definition of a Mary Sue.

Rey is shown to have martial fighting skills early on. She fought with a staff, not a sword, but Luke flew a Skyhopper, not an X-Wing, and I don't recall people complaining about that. She also fought Kylo Ren after he was shot in the chest with a bowcaster - a weapon which is powerful enough to send literally everyone else hit with it flying. Kylo Ren is very clearly fighting at a significant disadvantage, and is nowhere near as capable as he was the first time he met Rey. He also infiltrates her mind, and we can see the connection is two-way, which can explain why she is able to both know about and use the Force powers that she only uses after his mind-meld attempt. She's also not a terribly good shot, IIRC.

The new movies are not well-written, IMO, but she's not a Mary Sue.

[Quebbster]

Welp, this is a Star Wars thread now.

All threads become Star Wars threads in due time.

[Schroeswald]

All threads become Star Wars threads in due time.

Hey! Hey! Some of them become over Miko/Tarquin!

[skim172]

"But you'll be hailed as a top bad guy. Like, not Kingpin or Thanos, sure, but up there! Much better than the elf guy who you overshadowed! And you'll have it better than me, Hel, who only gets one film! Wait, maybe I didn't think this through"

Grey Wolf

"Curses! I'll get my revenge - I'll edit their version of the Edda to include stories about you tying your genitals to the beard of a goat!"

[Fyraltari]

Hey! Hey! Some of them become over Miko/Tarquin!

These are just Anakin/Vader threads in disguise.

[Doug Lampert]

Rey is shown to have martial fighting skills early on. She fought with a staff, not a sword, but Luke flew a Skyhopper, not an X-Wing, and I don't recall people complaining about that. She also fought Kylo Ren after he was shot in the chest with a bowcaster - a weapon which is powerful enough to send literally everyone else hit with it flying. Kylo Ren is very clearly fighting at a significant disadvantage, and is nowhere near as capable as he was the first time he met Rey. He also infiltrates her mind, and we can see the connection is two-way, which can explain why she is able to both know about and use the Force powers that she only uses after his mind-meld attempt. She's also not a terribly good shot, IIRC.

The new movies are not well-written, IMO, but she's not a Mary Sue.

Agreed; IMOA: The defining factor of a Mary Sue is not that she wins, most heroes do that.

It's not that she wins against the odds, most heroes do that.

It's not that she is more capable than you'd expect given her background, most heroes are.

It's that the narrative treats her as pretty well always right, everything revolves around her to an unreasonable extent, and other characters are defined only by their relations to her.

The new movies have a bunch of characters running around doing stuff, in most cases with little or no concern for what Rey is doing at the time. But Kylo is the only character that treats her as unreasonably important, and to be blunt, a whiny little ass whose self image is entirely based on being powerful in the force reacting significantly to an attractive girl who's also powerful in the force isn't surprising and doesn't make the girl a Mary Sue.

[Dion]

I'll once again suggest that you try reading the actual strip, not the one you invented in your head to complain about.

It seems like it would be kind of rude to complain about things that actually happened in the comic strip.

For example: “I hate the way that Belkar died from flying too close to the sun. Everyone knows the sun is hot, so the wings should have been made using wax with a higher melting point. That’s an obvious plot hole and it destroyed my enjoyment of the strip.”

See? None of that actually happened in the strip. But I got to complain, which is fun, and many people will tell me that I’m wrong, so that will give me something to do this afternoon when I’m bored at work.

[Doug Lampert]

It seems like it would be kind of rude to complain about things that actually happened in the comic strip.

For example: “I hate the way that Belkar died from flying too close to the sun. Everyone knows the sun is hot, so the wings should have been made using wax with a higher melting point. That’s an obvious plot hole and it destroyed my enjoyment of the strip.”

See? None of that actually happened in the strip. But I got to complain, which is fun, and many people will tell me that I’m wrong, so that will give me something to do this afternoon when I’m bored at work.

You are wrong. Belkar is so COOL that his presence should have kept the wax from melting. Also, when Belkar hits the Earth, it should be the Earth that is damaged. THOSE are the plotholes!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Agreed; IMOA: The defining factor of a Mary Sue is not that she wins, most heroes do that.

It's not that she wins against the odds, most heroes do that.

It's not that she is more capable than you'd expect given her background, most heroes are.

It's that the narrative treats her as pretty well always right, everything revolves around her to an unreasonable extent, and other characters are defined only by their relations to her.

The new movies have a bunch of characters running around doing stuff, in most cases with little or no concern for what Rey is doing at the time. But Kylo is the only character that treats her as unreasonably important, and to be blunt, a whiny little ass whose self image is entirely based on being powerful in the force reacting significantly to an attractive girl who's also powerful in the force isn't surprising and doesn't make the girl a Mary Sue.

I've not watched the films, so I cannot say if this Rey person is a Mary Sue by the old definition. But I can say that to many people on the Interwebs and the twitters, "Mary Sue" is defined as "female character taking on a role previously reserved to male heroes". I understand that by this new definition, she is indeed a Mary Sue.

Of course, the thing is that some then conflate the definitions. The Old Mary Sue definition is a black mark against a character - a short hand for a form of character (self-)insert in fannon all too common of starting writers that usually indicated poor quality of writing. The new definition is nothing of the sort.

(I'm a descriptivist, so I'm not about to judge which of the two terms is "better". Like Thor said, all words are made up. But I am damn well going to point out the sleigh of hand attempt at conflating two terms that have nothing in common).

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

I've not watched the films, so I cannot say if this Rey person is a Mary Sue by the old definition. But I can say that to many people on the Interwebs and the twitters, "Mary Sue" is defined as "female character taking on a role previously reserved to male heroes". I understand that by this new definition, she is indeed a Mary Sue.

Of course, the thing is that some then conflate the definitions. The Old Mary Sue definition is a black mark against a character - a short hand for a form of character (self-)insert in fannon all too common of starting writers that usually indicated poor quality of writing. The new definition is nothing of the sort.

(I'm a descriptivist, so I'm not about to judge which of the two terms is "better". Like Thor said, all words are made up. But I am damn well going to point out the sleigh of hand attempt at conflating two terms that have nothing in common).

Grey Wolf

That may be what people use it as (it’s what it ends up describing most of the time), but no one ever has actual defined it as that, as D12 and were using basically the definition Doug laid out, just misusing it, if we were using the word jerk under the actual definition, but some people applied it to anyone who has a name starting with j, while insisting they did fall under the definition a normal person would use, they would be misusing the term, not the people who use it to describe a mean person.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(it’s what it ends up describing most of the time)

See, that's what I call "defining" a word. If they point at all these female characters in previously male roles and calling them Mary Sues, then that's what the word means now. Whether they intended to or not, and whether we accept it or not. Sure, "gay" used to be an euphemism. But now it does mean homosexual, regardless of what the people that first introduced the term meant. That's just language evolving before our eyes.

Grey Wolf