The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    This has been debated before
    Specifically with regards to dwarves getting out of the system by worshipping another pantheon and moving there
    The fact that Durkon got a Hel spirit instead of a nergal one suggests otherwise
    Right, but dwarves are specifically an exception to the usual rules. So a dwarf worshipper of Dragon will, as I understand it, go to Dragon if they die with honor and to Hel if they do not.

    Though this system gets weird if you have someone who (for some reason) worships a deity of radically different alignment than themselves. Like a Lawful Good Human who regularly prays to Loki.

    As for Hel providing Durkon's vampire spirit, Durkon is still a worshipper of a northern god. Cause of death doesn't influence most death related circumstances, so why should it affect who's in charge of supplying vampire spirits. Now, what we don't know is what would happen if Durkon, natively a Northerner and a Dwarf converted to worshipping, I dunno, Marduk and then got vampirized. Would Nergal provide the vampire spirit, because AU Durkon worships a Western deity, or does his birth and/or dwarfness give the reins to Hel? We just don't have enough information about weird edge cases like this. (In any event, converting between pantheons appears to be super-rare.)

  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    That’s one side closer to nine, which may or may not be the actual number of sides in the final battle.
    Ever since the demise of the Linear Guild, it's been clear that sides can exist and then drop out of the conflict. So there's no reason at all to think that the "nine sides" thing has any relevance to the final battle. It was just a clue that there were, at that point, more sides yet to be revealed (which there have been -- the Vector Legion and Hel), and the clue is now played out and has no further meaning.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    In older systems Marduk was portrayed as evil - especially those that have him with multiple eyes
    More recently he has been turned into an aspect of Bahamut more concerned with law than good
    From what we’ve seen Red eyes tends to be the sign of evil deities (thinking of the deities that befriended DO)
    And the western continent according to Tarquin (admittedly could be biased) has been full of small feuding kingdoms
    As an aside that concept always feels like a western dismissal of /prejudice for another desert like area
    'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"

  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Please share with us what she does less well than Luke did, since he's pretty much the benchmark for "strong force-sensitive main character that starts with no knowledge of the force and ends up mastering it".

    Being a junk trader doesn't explain being a martial artist proficient with all forms of weapons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Please share with us what she does less well than Luke did, since he's pretty much the benchmark for "strong force-sensitive main character that starts with no knowledge of the force and ends up mastering it".

    Being a junk trader doesn't explain being a martial artist proficient with all forms of weapons.
    Gonna stop you right there, because she's not proficient with all forms of weapons. She's proficient with a staff and and sword. That's it. Now, if you want to argue, "but the staff and sword are very different!", I can just point to "Luke flew an entirely different kind of ship in the original, and coincidentally enough, Boeing very kindly told us recently that even in the exact same vehicle, if changes are made, pilots need to be entirely retrained or the vehicle will quite literally crash, despite being flown by experienced pilots specifically trained for that vehicle. So Luke jumping from a T-16 to a T-65 - a civilian shuttle to high-performance military hardware - is far and away more complex and ridiculous than going from a staff to a sword. And even then, she didn't master the lightsaber; she was against less-than-fully-trained fighter who was shot in the gut by a weapon that explodes most other people. The fact that he was still standing alone is kind of ridiculous, the fact that he lost to a newbie isn't at all, because he should have lost to her. Hell, he should have lost to Finn, dude was barely holding it together there!

    And hey, that ship thing also shows us something that Luke did way better than Rey; he flew against moon-sized space station, with the entire surface covered in guns that were shooting at him, with a full complement of TIEs that were shooting at him, with Darth Vader personally shooting at him, and ended up being one of the few that lives. Rey, conversely, starts crashing the Falcon all over the desert, then manages to survive against a measly two TIEs long enough for Finn to shoot one down, then performs a maneuver through a motionless wreck that she intricately knows because she spends large amounts of her life in there. So she's nowhere near as good a pilot as Luke, who we can assume is such a good pilot due to the Force.

    Lastly, there's a vast gulf between "I'm going to have strong female characters" and "she's an idealized character without any flaws," which was what you claimed. Ripley is a strong female character. So is Leia in the first movie. So is Sarah Connor. Kennedy is saying that they are vastly underrepresented in Hollywood, and that she is trying to change that. She is not saying "and the way to do that is to have super-good not-bad-at-anything characters" like you are implying.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-08-21 at 03:31 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I think you've managed to grasp the core concept of the Drow, yes.

    Think of them like Hutts, but with some Sithy bits in there.
    Also Lolth has a specific hold over all Drow except those that find another deity or very exceptional cases - these was seen in war of the spider queen
    Of course that is helped along by her clerics clamping down on any knowledge of the other deities
    When a ritual was done that cleansed some of the Drow back into ‘brown’ elves she couldn’t take them by default as they were no longer Drow but elves. This meat corellon could protect them
    'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    No it really doesn't.


    That doesn't sound like a viable mindset. What's the average drowish life expectancy? 14?
    It’s slightly less than for elves
    But Lolth seems to have given them massive fecundity so despite massive losses internally and externally they thrive
    'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"

  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    If you want to describe why Rey is a bad character, describe why Rey is a bad character.
    This.

    I don’t think Rey is a very well-written character, but I don’t think she’s a Mary Sue. She’s badly written for the same reason that a lot of action heroes are badly written: heroes in this mold are boring, with paper-thin motivations and no depth. They are there to push plot. Luke is an orphaned youth, sent to a foreign land to be raised by surrogate parents, who discovers mighty new powers with the help of a wise old mentor and goes off to fight evil because Reasons. He’s about as deep as, say, Superman, not quite as deep as Harry Potter, both of whom share many of the same story beats, except reskinned as supermagic Dumble-Dor-El Muggle Krypton Fortress of Hogwartitude. Sure, some heroes sometimes get bland motivations like “Rrrrevenge!!” (“Okay, I’m sorry I ate your fish!”) but most of the time, they do good because they are good, and for no other reason.

    Rey is about as well-written as Luke, which is to say, not well. Luke wanted to fight the Empire because all his friends did, and Rey is saddled with an ill-defined identity quest whenever the scriptwriters remember and it’s convenient. The thing is, Luke gets a free pass on his bad writing because it was a white dude writing power fantasies about a white dude. Rey doesn’t, because of the gloriously circular argument that Rey is bad because Kathleen Kennedy is bad, and Kennedy is bad because she somehow created Rey to be so bad, because she’s a bad person.
    Last edited by Fish; 2019-08-21 at 03:46 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Well the average lifespan for a dwarf is like 200 years, so Hel would be very effective at least.
    I don't follow?
    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    In older systems Marduk was portrayed as evil - especially those that have him with multiple eyes
    More recently he has been turned into an aspect of Bahamut more concerned with law than good
    From what we’ve seen Red eyes tends to be the sign of evil deities (thinking of the deities that befriended DO)
    And the western continent according to Tarquin (admittedly could be biased) has been full of small feuding kingdoms
    As an aside that concept always feels like a western dismissal of /prejudice for another desert like area
    D&D rules also say that goblins should be about Belkar-sized, so there.
    And an area having a lot of war doesn,'t mean that people are more evil there. Or that the gods are to blame.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Are they dumb or enjoying being used?
    They enjoy not getting tortured by Lolth for not obeying.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I don't follow?
    Your argument there seemed to be that "drows don't live very long, therefore the carrot of killing your enemies isn't very effective" and my response was that dwarves live pretty long so the carrot would be more effective there if what you say is true.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Sure, some heroes sometimes get bland motivations like “Rrrrevenge!!” (“Okay, I’m sorry I ate your fish!”)
    Given your username, this motivation might not be so bland if you have a loved one that would take it poorly if some villain ate you.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Your argument there seemed to be that "drows don't live very long, therefore the carrot of killing your enemies isn't very effective" and my response was that dwarves live pretty long so the carrot would be more effective there if what you say is true.
    No I'm saying that if all the typical drow cares about is killing their ennemies over their own well-being (hence serving an abusive goddess on the basis that she's worse to their ennemies) then the few of them crafty enough to survive to their natural elvish life-span of a few centuries would offset the deaths of the many who die very young to such a messed-up society to drag the average life-expenctancy to around 14.

    In other words "there are old drwos and there are drows of average intelligence, but there are no old drows of average intelligence".
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  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    It’s slightly less than for elves
    But Lolth seems to have given them massive fecundity so despite massive losses internally and externally they thrive
    She also literally tells them to knock the backstabbing off sometimes just so their population can recover.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2019-08-21 at 04:00 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdant Mage View Post
    Hello, I'm new here, just wanted to post because I thought of a loophole in the bet that Hel made:

    She is prevented from making any Clerics of the LIVING.

    Things she is NOT prevented from doing:

    - receiving worship of the living. (which she currently lacks)

    - making clerics of the dead. (of which she currently has 1)

    Thus, one thing she could do is the classic "undead rulers" trope. Direct her undead cleric to go and find a small (and preferably already in trouble) village of living people, and have her vampire visibly protect them in exchange for a small sample of blood on the regular. Emphasize the villagers' happiness, freedom, and protection. DO NOT let the vampire turn them unless they specifically ask for it, and if the population can support losing one of the living.

    Basically, form an order of (Un)Holy Vampire Clerics dedicated by the goddess Hel herself to making life as good as possible for the living villagers in their chosen location, with the purpose being to encourage the living villagers to begin thankful worship of Hel.

    Becoming a vampire could even become part of the basic process for induction as a Cleric, for those who wish to give their life to her service (literally). Even if they're trapped inside their own head, they could be upfront about this and spin it as some noble sacrifice for the protection of the people, which the Vampire spirit will do its best to honor. The number of villagers who may desire that wouldn't be so many to start with, but hey, the ones she has are immortal unless killed. She can slowly stock up as the village grows under her protection, until she has her own major city like The Dark One has Azure City now.

    Only she'd get her city with less murder, and more enlightened self interest.
    There appears to be something preventing Hel from being worshipped at all by the living (given that Rich has said that literally no one worships her), and every time she has managed to get a wight cleric or something, it gets killed off as a low level boss.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    They enjoy not getting tortured by Lolth for not obeying.
    Yeahn that belongs in the "stick" category.
    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    She also literally tells them to knock the backstabbing off sometimes just so their population can recover.
    Ah, so she has some sense, after all.
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  16. - Top - End - #376
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Given your username, this motivation might not be so bland if you have a loved one that would take it poorly if some villain ate you.
    That’s a chip up the nose.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    No I'm saying that if all the typical drow cares about is killing their ennemies over their own well-being (hence serving an abusive goddess on the basis that she's worse to their ennemies) then the few of them crafty enough to survive to their natural elvish life-span of a few centuries would offset the deaths of the many who die very young to such a messed-up society to drag the average life-expenctancy to around 14.

    In other words "there are old drwos and there are drows of average intelligence, but there are no old drows of average intelligence".
    They do care about their own well-being. They just believe they will be spared their goddesses' capriciousness. If your neighbor got turned into a drider (half-spider thing), well, they must have deserved it. Certainly I don't.

    Self-delusion is a hell of a drug.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    It's that the narrative treats her as pretty well always right, everything revolves around her to an unreasonable extent, and other characters are defined only by their relations to her.
    And Marty Stu characters as as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    The definition of Mary Sue I’m most familiar with is the one from Wikipedia: “A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Typically, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.”
    That is the def I tend to use when I see the term.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I am also reminded of a young lady I was trying to date about ten years ago who asked me if I knew what My Immortal was, and that made me feel old (even though I wasn't that old then).
    Was she referring to the song by Evanescence or the harry potter fan fic?
    Quote Originally Posted by JBiddles View Post
    TLJ was a terrible failure and richly deserves its spot at the bottom of the RT audience ratings, but "Rey is good at things" isn't even on the Top 100 problems with it.
    This summary I agree with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Incidentally, Hel's just said "release the Snarl" is a viable short-term goal.
    So did about half of the gods at the Godsmoot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Rey is a largely uninteresting character. {snip} Honestly, I find her as boring and unappealing as Superman, another ridiculous character that can achieve just about anything, and then can't, as the plot demands. {snip} She can do everything Luke could, except better, and without training. She's not stealing any "male roles" because the franchise has no male equivalent for being able to do everything without any training whatsoever.
    That's a take that fits what I saw on screen. Badly written characters are a Star Wars staple, however. Why should Rey be any different?

    She is no Ripley; she is no Sarah Connor.
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  19. - Top - End - #379
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    Right, but dwarves are specifically an exception to the usual rules. So a dwarf worshipper of Dragon will, as I understand it, go to Dragon if they die with honor and to Hel if they do not.

    Though this system gets weird if you have someone who (for some reason) worships a deity of radically different alignment than themselves. Like a Lawful Good Human who regularly prays to Loki.

    As for Hel providing Durkon's vampire spirit, Durkon is still a worshipper of a northern god. Cause of death doesn't influence most death related circumstances, so why should it affect who's in charge of supplying vampire spirits. Now, what we don't know is what would happen if Durkon, natively a Northerner and a Dwarf converted to worshipping, I dunno, Marduk and then got vampirized. Would Nergal provide the vampire spirit, because AU Durkon worships a Western deity, or does his birth and/or dwarfness give the reins to Hel? We just don't have enough information about weird edge cases like this. (In any event, converting between pantheons appears to be super-rare.)
    Hel explicitly told Durkula that it doesn't matter that he was sired by Nergal's snake, all dwarves are under her purview. Hence we see once again the formula "If Dwarf=True, ignore all other rules and send to Hel" at work.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Hel explicitly told Durkula that it doesn't matter that he was sired by Nergal's snake, all dwarves are under her purview. Hence we see once again the formula "If Dwarf=True, ignore all other rules and send to Hel" at work.
    Nope. The dwarves are under her purview because she makes Northern petitioner vampires. The dwarven soul also being under her purview doesn't come into play until the vampire is destroyed.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Hel does not have rightful dominion over Durkon's soul as part of her normal assignment of dishonored souls, however, because Durkon did in fact die in battle. She got involved because she is also, separately, the Northern deity of undeath, and one of her "duties" is making the evil spirits for all Northern vampires. The vampirization process basically jammed up the normal disposition of Durkon's soul by trapping it inside the undead body. Where Durkon's actual soul ends up will not be determined until/unless it is freed. It's a like a naturally occurring Trap the Soul spell.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-08-21 at 04:31 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Those aren't mutually exclusive positions. In fact, they flow together. Durkon is a dwarf. He is automatically under the jurisdiction of the Northern Gods. Hel makes the vampires for those under the jurisdiction of the Northern Gods.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Those aren't mutually exclusive positions. In fact, they flow together. Durkon is a dwarf. He is automatically under the jurisdiction of the Northern Gods. Hel makes the vampires for those under the jurisdiction of the Northern Gods.
    If Durkon worshipped the Southern gods, I'm pretty sure the Twelve would create his vamp, is the thing. His vampirism is not an instance of "If Dwarf=True, ignore all other rules and send to Hel."
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Badly written characters are a Star Wars staple, however. Why should Rey be any different?
    Finn is horribly written; Poe, is there an actual character there? But Rey is very bad too, her alleged motivation has nothing to do with her actions on the screen.

    Yeah, bad characterization all around and Rey is no exception. An assumption of sexism in criticism of Rey isn't unreasonable. She is a horrible character, so it's certainly possible to criticize her without being a sexist, but there's some question as to why you'd bother to pick her out of the crowd.

    And in my case, an assumption of sexism in reactions to TLJ is strongly reinforced by most of the criticism of Admiral Holdo that I've seen on the net. Which was so blatantly sexist that it amazes me. The character shows the leadership ability of a dead carp, she pulls a trick which renders every previous space combat scene of every Starwars movie (including the one she's in) an idiot plot (and she is one of the idiots, especially since she spends all day setting up the trick rather than doing so immediately after deciding to commit suicide by Imperial New Order fleet). But what people complain about is that she is a woman in command and refuses to listen to her loose cannon subordinate when he is blatantly WRONG, and then refuses to explain her secret plan to him when he is DEMONSTRABLY incapable of keeping a secret for more than 5 seconds.

    Gosh, she must only be presented as being correct because she's a woman and Disney is going all PC. The idea that a fighter pilot might actually be expected to occasionally at least consider obeying the orders of the Admiral in acting command of the entire military in which he is serving is totally unreasonable.

    The only evidence that she's not a competent commander in her interactions with Poe is that she doesn't have Poe shot.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Finn is horribly written; Poe, is there an actual character there? But Rey is very bad too, her alleged motivation has nothing to do with her actions on the screen.

    Yeah, bad characterization all around and Rey is no exception. An assumption of sexism in criticism of Rey isn't unreasonable. She is a horrible character, so it's certainly possible to criticize her without being a sexist, but there's some question as to why you'd bother to pick her out of the crowd.

    And in my case, an assumption of sexism in reactions to TLJ is strongly reinforced by most of the criticism of Admiral Holdo that I've seen on the net. Which was so blatantly sexist that it amazes me. The character shows the leadership ability of a dead carp, she pulls a trick which renders every previous space combat scene of every Starwars movie (including the one she's in) an idiot plot (and she is one of the idiots, especially since she spends all day setting up the trick rather than doing so immediately after deciding to commit suicide by Imperial New Order fleet). But what people complain about is that she is a woman in command and refuses to listen to her loose cannon subordinate when he is blatantly WRONG, and then refuses to explain her secret plan to him when he is DEMONSTRABLY incapable of keeping a secret for more than 5 seconds.

    Gosh, she must only be presented as being correct because she's a woman and Disney is going all PC. The idea that a fighter pilot might actually be expected to occasionally at least consider obeying the orders of the Admiral in acting command of the entire military in which he is serving is totally unreasonable.

    The only evidence that she's not a competent commander in her interactions with Poe is that she doesn't have Poe shot.
    While I wholly agree with everything you wrote, I also think that a major flaw with every character thus far is that they don't have Poe shot.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If Durkon worshipped the Southern gods, I'm pretty sure the Twelve would create his vamp, is the thing. His vampirism is not an instance of "If Dwarf=True, ignore all other rules and send to Hel."
    I remember raising this issue when it came to hilgya and Loki and so on
    If converting to another pantheon worked you would surely see masses of dwarves heading south or even west instead of a few in the west and south
    The fact we haven’t seen dwarven divine casters in those areas - umm maybe that Druid or was that in Greysky? - suggests that the Giant didn’t want to address that issue
    Maybe there’s an agreement not to encourage that sort of thing?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    And in my case, an assumption of sexism in reactions to TLJ is strongly reinforced by most of the criticism of Admiral Holdo that I've seen on the net.
    OK, was your post based on her role being written as sexist, or that the criticisms of how it played out in the movie were from a sexist motivation?

    I rather liked who they chose to depict the admiral (Laura Dern, she's been good in a lot of movies) but the movie had already lost me to massive eye rolling with the gravity bombs in the early battle scene.

    As to Poe being an ass ... the very tired trope of a junior officer (fighter pilot - wait, Maverick again?) defying the higher command is a rather old one in Hollywood, decades old, and was old before Tom Cruise put on a flight suit.

    All they did was recycle that with a lady as the flag officer, not a guy, in this particular case. *shrug* I don't get why people foam at the mouth over it.

    @Peelee:
    Yeah, Poe being shot might have resolved any number of issues with the film, but I suspect that the actor has a three picture deal with Disney. (In the Force Awakens, I recall my son catching a hole early on having to do with Poe's jacket and that plane crash ... but no, I am not going to watch that movie again just to remember what my son commented upon).

    As one of the posters further up pointed out, there are so many problems with TFA and TLJ that any imperfections in Rey's character hardly raise a blip on my rader screen.
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  27. - Top - End - #387
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Finn is horribly written; Poe, is there an actual character there? But Rey is very bad too, her alleged motivation has nothing to do with her actions on the screen.

    Yeah, bad characterization all around and Rey is no exception. An assumption of sexism in criticism of Rey isn't unreasonable. She is a horrible character, so it's certainly possible to criticize her without being a sexist, but there's some question as to why you'd bother to pick her out of the crowd.

    And in my case, an assumption of sexism in reactions to TLJ is strongly reinforced by most of the criticism of Admiral Holdo that I've seen on the net. Which was so blatantly sexist that it amazes me. The character shows the leadership ability of a dead carp, she pulls a trick which renders every previous space combat scene of every Starwars movie (including the one she's in) an idiot plot (and she is one of the idiots, especially since she spends all day setting up the trick rather than doing so immediately after deciding to commit suicide by Imperial New Order fleet). But what people complain about is that she is a woman in command and refuses to listen to her loose cannon subordinate when he is blatantly WRONG, and then refuses to explain her secret plan to him when he is DEMONSTRABLY incapable of keeping a secret for more than 5 seconds.

    Gosh, she must only be presented as being correct because she's a woman and Disney is going all PC. The idea that a fighter pilot might actually be expected to occasionally at least consider obeying the orders of the Admiral in acting command of the entire military in which he is serving is totally unreasonable.

    The only evidence that she's not a competent commander in her interactions with Poe is that she doesn't have Poe shot.
    First off, does she have the leadership ability of a dead carp or is she competent except for not killing Poe?

    Second off, she has a very clear reason for not doing it immediately, she's putting the fuel in the escape vessels, the hyperspace thing is meant as a distraction for that so of course she's ensuring they can escape (its also the core reason besides general distrust and ****ery that Poe is worried about her being a traitor).

    Third off, this is a very specific scenario, it requires timing, no gravity well stuff messing you up, messing with hyperspace failsafes, unwillingness or inability to take prisoners or supplies, a 100% death rate amongst whoever's on the ship, and (head canon here) not too much size differences. I imagine it has been used before, and since this is galactic history, its happened thousands of times, we have just not been privy to the times it happened before now, and they are proportionally pretty rare, a false retreat is another perfectly viable strategy we've never seen in Star Wars, and that has been used quite a few times in real world history, doesn't mean its never happened, just means it isn't viable or the commanders didn't see it as viable/the most viable possibility (and even not including my head canon, there hasn't been another times besides the Death Star-type runs it would be useful, and then my head canon is there to explain those 3 examples, and there are any number of better explanations you can use for those as well).

  28. - Top - End - #388
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    I remember raising this issue when it came to hilgya and Loki and so on
    If converting to another pantheon worked you would surely see masses of dwarves heading south or even west instead of a few in the west and south
    For dwarven souls, sure. For dwarven vampires? That I'm not so sure. Here's how it's laid out, as I see it (and I can be wrong):

    Person worships deity from Pantheon X.
    Person is vampirized. Vampire is created by death deity from Pantheon X.
    When vampire is destroyed, Person's soul goes to [If Dwarf, Hel. Unless died honorably, in which case] its proper place in the great wheel.

    So, dwarves can still convert pantheons but it doesn't save them from Hel. Vampirism is super-rare, so that's not really a concern for converting (and even if it was common, it's not really all that great a reason to convert anyway). Death deity of whatever pantheon was worshipped gets the vamp, but not the soul, Hel's bet is still in place with no issues, everything is hunky-dory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    First off, does she have the leadership ability of a dead carp or is she competent except for not killing Poe?
    I'll highlight the answer:
    The only evidence that she's not a competent commander in her interactions with Poe is that she doesn't have Poe shot.
    There's evidence that she's not a competent commander in general, but this is only looking at whether she's a competent commander in her interactions with Poe, since that's what a lot of people base it on.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-08-21 at 05:09 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    OK, was your post based on her role being written as sexist, or that the criticisms of how it played out in the movie were from a sexist motivation?
    The criticisms were blatantly sexist. There's nothing particularly sexist about her role as written.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    There's evidence that she's not a competent commander in general, but this is only looking at whether she's a competent commander in her interactions with Poe, since that's what a lot of people base it on.
    Well, I guess I missed that , so um pretend I wrote something about how we only saw her connected to Poe and that plan and then that I'll explain how the plan was good below.

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