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  1. - Top - End - #511
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by drazen View Post
    No but...
    You said you had a specific problem with a specific person doing a specific thing. When asked to provide evidence of that person doing that thing, you change the subject.

    I don’t believe you’re arguing in good faith.

    I’m done with this conversation, then.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Finally someone besides me who actually likes a Star Wars movie besides Rogue One released after 1980! Because I wasn't feeling that anyone actually did, which seems a bit weird.
    I'll chime in too, since I think this thread has had far too much negativity already.

    I enjoyed all of the new movies. Last Jedi not as much as the others because it dragged towards the end, but a lot of it was good. Rogue One was excellent, Solo even more so, and The Force Awakens was my favourite of the new movies.

    Some the criticisms have some truth in them, but when I go to movies I'm not looking for deep characterisation, I want to be entertained, and I found the movies entertaining enough to paper over any flaws. I prefer to stay away from this kind of bashing party, so I'll bow out of this one now.

  3. - Top - End - #513
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    I don’t understand why they don’t show how that red striped guy with horns got so good at fighting that he could kill the CIA trained dude from Taken.

    There should have been a training montage or something, so we would know why that was possible.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Gonna stop you right there, because she's not proficient with all forms of weapons. She's proficient with a staff and and sword. That's it. Now, if you want to argue, "but the staff and sword are very different!", I can just point to "Luke flew an entirely different kind of ship in the original, and coincidentally enough, Boeing very kindly told us recently that even in the exact same vehicle, if changes are made, pilots need to be entirely retrained or the vehicle will quite literally crash, despite being flown by experienced pilots specifically trained for that vehicle. So Luke jumping from a T-16 to a T-65 - a civilian shuttle to high-performance military hardware - is far and away more complex and ridiculous than going from a staff to a sword. And even then, she didn't master the lightsaber; she was against less-than-fully-trained fighter who was shot in the gut by a weapon that explodes most other people. The fact that he was still standing alone is kind of ridiculous, the fact that he lost to a newbie isn't at all, because he should have lost to her. Hell, he should have lost to Finn, dude was barely holding it together there!

    And hey, that ship thing also shows us something that Luke did way better than Rey; he flew against moon-sized space station, with the entire surface covered in guns that were shooting at him, with a full complement of TIEs that were shooting at him, with Darth Vader personally shooting at him, and ended up being one of the few that lives. Rey, conversely, starts crashing the Falcon all over the desert, then manages to survive against a measly two TIEs long enough for Finn to shoot one down, then performs a maneuver through a motionless wreck that she intricately knows because she spends large amounts of her life in there. So she's nowhere near as good a pilot as Luke, who we can assume is such a good pilot due to the Force.

    Lastly, there's a vast gulf between "I'm going to have strong female characters" and "she's an idealized character without any flaws," which was what you claimed. Ripley is a strong female character. So is Leia in the first movie. So is Sarah Connor. Kennedy is saying that they are vastly underrepresented in Hollywood, and that she is trying to change that. She is not saying "and the way to do that is to have super-good not-bad-at-anything characters" like you are implying.
    Really have to argue on two points, first Luke was bulls-eyeing womp rats in his T-16, they're only about two meters. So the T-16 may be an atmospheric-only ship, but that's OK, Star Wars space combat is WWII combat in space. Luke was flying an armed craft on Tattoine.

    Second, Boeing made _major_ changes to the flight characteristics (which would probably have been easy to deal with) then made _major_ software changes to cover that up (so they didn't need to retrain crews at $50,000/pilot for a new type), then screwed that up, then requested the FAA let them delete reference to the new software. The aerodynamic changes to the "same plane" were fairly sedate in the regime a commercial pilot spends his life, the software package actively trying to murder the crew and passengers when you pull the flaps in was a new and undocumented "feature." This may have to be scrubbed under forum rules, not sure. It's more like I let you drive a sedan, then I let you drive a station wagon version of the same car, but I put a bomb in the trunk. You failing to get to your destination says more about me than it says about you.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BarakDeathBlade View Post
    Really have to argue on two points, first Luke was bulls-eyeing womp rats in his T-16, they're only about two meters. So the T-16 may be an atmospheric-only ship, but that's OK, Star Wars space combat is WWII combat in space. Luke was flying an armed craft on Tattoine.

    Second, Boeing made _major_ changes to the flight characteristics (which would probably have been easy to deal with) then made _major_ software changes to cover that up (so they didn't need to retrain crews at $50,000/pilot for a new type), then screwed that up, then requested the FAA let them delete reference to the new software. The aerodynamic changes to the "same plane" were fairly sedate in the regime a commercial pilot spends his life, the software package actively trying to murder the crew and passengers when you pull the flaps in was a new and undocumented "feature." This may have to be scrubbed under forum rules, not sure. It's more like I let you drive a sedan, then I let you drive a station wagon version of the same car, but I put a bomb in the trunk. You failing to get to your destination says more about me than it says about you.
    At the very least it says that you're not very subtle with your assassinations.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You ever shot a gun before? They're ordered to let them go. So the stormtroopers are having to shoot at moving targets, who are also firi g at the stormtroopers, with the specific goal of not hitting them, but also not looking like they're trying to not hit them. Thsts pretty dang hard. Han and Luke clearly believe it was earnest attempts to kill them, and only Leia isn't fooled.


    Han does "basic maneuvers" in the Falcon too. They're able to be more flashy because technology has risen to let them shoot it that way. EVERYONE flies with amazing stunts in the movie. Poe takes out what, six TIEs in 5 seconds? It's power creep and bad filmmaking, not an indicator that Rey is better than Luke.

    In the OT, what amazing stunts does Han do? Fly straight when he says "I know a few maneuvers, well lose 'em"? Filmmaking limitations.


    See above, filmmaking limitations at the time vs power creep and bad filmmaking now. You say you don't care what the lore says, then if course you're going to have issues.

    We do you just choose to ignore those parts. Luke gets hit a few times, then blocks three shots. Rey gets the stormtrooper guard angrier and angrier, then convinces him. But according to you, that translates to Luke failed and Rey succeeded immediately.
    Yes, I have wielded and fired firearms. And other types of weapons. Have you? Aligning the sights isn't rocket science. Hitting a target at short range is pretty easy, unless you are a total clutz.

    I'm not sure which scene you have in mind, but stormtroopers have shot at the protagonists in much more than once, usually trying to kill them.

    As for flying, yes, that's what I said. HAN does tricks, because HAN has a LOT of experience flying THAT particular ship. Luke, on the other hand, does not. Yet Rey is compared to Luke, when really he did nothing fancy, and she pretty much did better tricks with the Falcon than Han did himself. As for Poe, that's pretty irrelevant? He's supposed to be an ace x-wing pilot, iirc. Nobody argued the universe lacked ace pilots. As for which maneuvers Han does, well, sliding through really narrow spaces, quick flips. Like with that space worm on the meteor and, more relevantly, the attack on the second death star. Man, I remember that in video games, that was TOUGH! Luke just flies in a large trench and shakes a little, and then shoots at a bullseye target at the end of his run.

    And yes. Luke getting shot wounds him, even if mildly, and is a visible defeat, even if minor. When does Rey get wounded? The failures have zero consequence, there is no apparent struggle. She's just trying random things out of desperation and pulls it off without knowing what she's doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Hey, if we're talking about Force Awakens, that I haven't seen Last Jedi isn't a problem!

    So close...and yet so far.

    Rey gets about as much character development time as the rest of the cast...which is the actual problem. Force Awakens is a series of action scenes...with very little bridging between them. And, as these past couple pages have shown, there are all sorts of "surprise" details that could be readily explained...if the movie bothered to show any of it. Character-driven stories work by the action pushing the characters forward, and the characters pushing the action forward...and Force Awakens looks about like what I expect would happen if the scenes of characters pushing the action forward were all cut; there's a lot of cheap stunts that could have been dramatic payoffs if they'd been set up.

    Of course, Rey isn't a Mary Sue. We do see her fail...twice, as I recall: First where she's Force-convincing the guard to release her, and then when she's fighting...Ren. (I can't decide if having "Rey" and "Ren" is better or worse than having "Chi Cho" and "Chuchi"...but I digress*) What's telling is the structure of both scenes: Rey isn't succeeding, dramatic pause, Rey tries again and succeeds. I find myself wondering how many struggles were cut because they couldn't be overcome in the same/adjacent scene.

    I understand that stringing energetic scenes together and leaving the audience to piece things together themselves is kind of J.J. Abrams' thing, but that approach certainly doesn't seem to have translated well at all. And if movie doesn't care about Rey as a character, what's the audience supposed to evaluate her by?


    As is frequently the case, Film Crit Hulk has a much more interesting read about it from the production side of things.


    * And I do it well! Or at least often.
    Rey is the main character, though. Yes, all characters in the sequels get bad treatment. But the expectations are usually higher for the main character.

    Those are two examples of her being exactly a Mary Sue. She tries, and she succeeds. She did not fail on either of these attempts. Just because it took her more than 1 second and a bit of dramatic tension was inserted, doesn't mean she failed. Luke fails over and over and over and over. Gets his ass kicked by Vader. Gets his ass kicked by that ice monster. Gets pushed around and saved by Ben. Fails to complete his training, fails to lift his x-wing. Rey never fails. She "struggles", at best, but it's a thin veil over her imminent total victory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Watch any movie from, say, 1945 to 1985. “Bullets hit the ground at the target’s feet” is common cinematic language for “near miss.” An actual near miss (with bullets) is invisible to the camera, so squibs are planted at the actor’s feet. This trope is everywhere. It is as common as six-shooters that shoot 95 bullets and guns that throw the target through brick walls and plate glass windows. It’s a thing Hollywood has done for decades and isn’t meant to depict a literal reality.

    The “bullets throw people a long way” wasn’t always so prevalent. It’s become a tradition more recently, because filmmakers think it makes the film more visceral, more exciting. It’s a kind of stylized power creep. If you want to show something is dramatic, you have to go over the top from what has been seen before. That, I feel, is a main reason why Rey is depicted as better than Luke; we’ve seen Luke already, and the new thing has to be bigger, with go-faster stripes. Not because Rey is female, but because the old movies are 40 years old.


    This is a sign of an impatient filmmaker trying to hit a home run and secure a new SW franchise. The heroine has to progress from talented nobody to full-fledged badass, but has to make the journey in one movie. There was too much money at stake to go for the slow build, so they rushed it. It was briefly satisfying but ultimately made little sense.

    Bad writing, I grant you.

    The movie is very inconsistent with Luke’s prowess. He is a superb flier who one-shots the Death Star without a targeting computer but a single Tusken raider sneaks up on him undetected and kicks his butt.


    No, we don’t, but we also don’t see Luke learning the saber or mind tricks either. When a lot of accusations are aimed at the woman, but not the man who does the same things, I wonder why. It seems unfair.


    Totally agreed. Finn’s backstory is underserved.


    A lot of adventure heroes are pretty bland. I’d call her typical, rather than disappointing.


    There certainly are people who think the movie is bad, and who aren’t sexist. There are people who do, and are. When someone says the movie is badly written I just say “welcome to Star Wars, have you watched the other films at all?” When they say “Mary Sue” and “it’s Kathleen Kennedy’s fault” and blatantly disregard and ignore examples of the male character being as badly written as the female one, i have a harder time giving the benefit of the doubt. There were lots of men making decisions in that production — JJ Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan, Michael Arndt, the head of Disney Bob Iger ... but let’s blame the woman? Curious. I mean,JJ Abrams has a daughter; doesn’t that mean it could be his fault? Nope. Blame Kennedy, I guess.

    (...)

    There have also been terrible “strong female characters” written. There just haven’t been many women around to blame when it happens, because there are so few women producers. So people generally blame the actress (eg, Halle Berry in “Catwoman”).

    (stuff)

    Again, conservation of run-time. As a sequel, less time must be spent explaining what stuff is. Star Wars was fast for its day, throwing a ton of new things at the viewer without pausing to explain. Force Awakens has the same story, without the setup, so it cruises. Yes, they probably could have set up the characters better, rather than cramming in more CGI and action.
    Bullets are invisible. Laser shots are not. That shots at the feet were common in earlier movies is utterly irrelevant anyways. Sure, the flesh wound to the shoulder is totally cliché, but overall stormtroopers barely ever hit anyone on screen. And even when they are pitted against redshirt rebels, they still are crappy shots. They always win by sheer strength of numbers, when they win at all.

    As for the consistency of Luke's prowess... no? Not at all? The tusken raider attack... you mean at the beginning of the movie? When the whole point is that we constantly see him improving? And the death star shot... pretty much anyone was expected to be able to pull that off. All they had to do was fly in a large trench up to the end, and shoot at the wall. Most of them died as canon fodder without ever getting a shot, just because they were up front. One shot and failed. Luke did no better than that guy, really, except that he relied upon the force, which he had spent the rest of the movie learning to focus on, and guided by Ben's spirital guidance, to time that last shot properly. He had a very consistent and logical power growth.

    You seem to assume that critics against women are because they are women. Because... why, you don't see the person also criticizing men, when they aren't on topic? Nowadays, it's like every critic against a woman needs to be accompanied by a praise for another woman and a critic against a man, and even if you do that someone's still gonna call you sexist. Rey's a terrible character, but I've got no issue with Daisy. Nor whathername that had that silly character that everyone hated, Rose. I've got absolutely no critic for these actresses, their characters suck, but none of that is on them. And the people Kathleen hired to direct her movies also have blame to bear, and they are both white men. Rian Johnson in particular. He's a white male, but I quite dislike that guy. It's unclear how much comes from the top and how much comes from him, and even how much of what comes from him really comes from him (since he exposed his vision during the hiring process, so had there been a clash there he'd simply not have gotten the job). I also wouldn't have a problem with a strong female lead, I absolutely love the Alien franchise for example.

    But there's a difference between a good character that displays strength, and a character which is simply defined by strength. And "strong female characters", lately, is little more than a marketing con. As if repeating it enough will make it true. But for as much as how Rey always wins and wields unprecedented power, she's also pathethic, simple-minded, and a pushover. What's her ambition? Her objectives? What does she want to do, and why does she want to do it? There's nothing. She kinda wants to know who her parents are. But, you know, not really. And she doesn't actually do much to find out, she just goes on random errands every time someone asks her to.

    The male characters? They aren't the main character, for starters. Even Finn feels most of the time like a secondary character playing out an irrelevant side quest. And for two, they don't display anywhere near her level of power. Finn, even though I find him too powerful still in some regards, still gets his ass kicked where Rey will prevail. And there's no "strong male character" trope anyone's trying to emulate. In fact, the male characters often seem to just be there to make the female characters shine. Finn gets his ass kicked by Ren, and right after, Rey defeats him. Poe tries to save the fleet and fails, so right after, Holdo does it.

    The issues involved are not that character concepts are being attributed to the wrong genders (a male Rey would still suck), but rather that genders are being made fundamental parts of the characters. "Strong woman" vs "Mansplainer". Luke's whiny, Ren's whiny, Poe's whiny. Luke gets humiliated by a puppet instead of a woman, though, so hurray?

    That there are 6 movies (plus spinoffs) that came before the sequels doesn't justify the pacing issues, because the pacing issues aren't the result of the assumption of the viewer knowing something in advance, since the sequels just spend their whole time ****ting on everything the viewer knew in advance. Return of the Jedi didn't have to spend too much time showing the force or Luke training, because they had already spent a lot of time on that in the two previous movies. The prequels, for all their faults, didn't really skip out on explaining the differences they were presenting, either. But in the sequels, things now work differently, and no time is spent to explain why. That's a problem. A big one, in my book. I like world-building. I like stories to elaborate on the world around its characters so that we may better understand where they are coming from, and what's going on around them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    All I’ll say about Rey is this: there are lots and lots of absolutely terrible characters in movies.

    But for some reason that I can’t figure out, a lot of very loud critics seem to have the most trouble with the female characters.

    Many of these same critics seem to have the most trouble with the way women do things in real life, too.

    But those critics are the first to tell you they’re not sexist. In fact, it turns out that I’m the sexist one, for noticing that certain people always seem to have trouble with women.
    Well, yes, because you appear to be making it about gender. Over 50% of the population is female. If you are to assume sexism every time someone complains about a woman, then you will necessarily assume sexist in more than half of critics you observe. Add some balls to Kathleen, and I wouldn't like her any more. Make Rey male, and he's not any better of a character. None of the issues with any of these female persons and characters has a thing to do with them being female. But SW is a big, big franchise. And right now, a woman's in charge of it, and they put a woman as main character. So yes, critics will necessarily target mostly women in this case, even if it has nothing to do with them being women. Lucas got a LOT of **** for the prequels, and he's a white male. The actor of Jar Jar got a lot of ****, and he's a male. I think the actor of Anakin got a lot of **** too, and he's a white male. People have shat on Die Hard 5's Bruce Willis here and elsewhere, and he's a white male actor, and without knowing what box made that movie, it's a fair bet to assume it was done by a white male. The ones in charge of the last season of GoT got a lot of ****, and again, afaik, both are white males. Rian Johnson in particular is getting a lot of ****, and he's a white male.

    There's a LOT of problem with the female characters in SW. But guess whose fault that is? White males'! Or Kathleen, maybe, I mean, it's a bit hard to draw that line, but still, looking at the difference between TFA and TLJ, one can safely assume that Rian Johnson deliberately made it far worse than was necessary. Yes, there are definitely sexists in the crowd. A lot of the garbage sent to the actresses' social media accounts was utterly disgusting. But the real problem was not with the actresses themselves, I've got no issues with their acting. But their characters, and the plot around them. It's cringy, it's obnoxious, and it's a total waste.

    And seriously, I think you are projecting on people way too much. People are largely anonymous on the internet. And there's a whole lot of people crammed on there, even when accounts aren't anonymous. How the hell could you know how any Rey critic relates with women in real life? You are honestly expecting people to believe that you have read "many of these same critics" "have the most trouble with the way women do things in real life, too"? Because that just comes off so often, right? Got a stat on that? "two out of three Rey haters subsequently admit they think women should all just stay at home and have babies and cook for their husbands", right? Yea, no, I don't recall seeing much of that at all.

    People who have issues with "strong female characters" might have issues with strong women, but for the most part, there's really no link. Because the first is just a marketing scam. It's been going on for a while, but Frozen really brought it to the front. That really made Hollywood realize "Hey, these 'Strong female characters' bring in big bucks! People love them, it sells so much merch to all those parents who want their little girls to grow up strong and independent!" Some of these were good. I really liked Moana, for example. Many of these, like SW or the Ghostbusters sequel, not so much. Ironically, the movie that launched the "strong female characters" craze really didn't portray any at all. It just had two female protagonists, neither of which were "strong women". Elsa was always just self-absorbed, living in hiding, and Anna literally falls in love with the first guy she crosses (and then, basically, the second). I guess Anna at least perseveres, though. Come to think of it, I'd like Rey much better if she was more like Anna. Deeply flawed, but, you know, at least she tries, even when she can't do it all on her own. And I don't remember anyone ever really complaining about her more "badass" moments, like when she attacks the wolves that are chasing them. Random note: some people made the ridiculous claim that Frozen was sexist because male characters had all the dialogue. I had actually fetched the script, and female characters have at least two thirds of the speech. But hey, I remember that claim taking over Facebook all over the place, decrying the patriarchy and all, despite how it wasn't even close to being true. But hey, I guess some people just love calling others "sexist".
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  7. - Top - End - #517
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    *brings in a 100-foot pole for the specific purpose of not touching the Star Wars discussion with it*

    I actually don't feel sorry for Loki here. This is not an unforeseeable consequence. He engineered a situation that resulted in his daughter experiencing centuries of malnutrition, and she knows he's the one behind it. If Hel has had enough time to come to terms with what she agreed to and try to adjust for it, Loki has had enough time to realize the outcome wouldn't be what he wanted.

    Either he could have done something in the past to help -- encourage Hel to forfeit the Bet, give her help adapting to the situation, or something -- or the Bet and its effects are unalterable and he arranged it without thinking through the consequences. I feel as sorry for Hel as i did for Nale with Tarquin (not enough to want them to succeed or escape, but more than i did previously), but in my opinion, if Loki is hurt or saddened, good. That's what happens when you screw up this much.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Well Loki has already admitted that he failed as a father.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arverst_aegnar View Post
    I actually don't feel sorry for Loki here.
    Well, yeah. They're both terrible individuals who richly deserve one another. The only individuals worth feeling sorry for here are the dwarves, caught in the crossfire of this little morality play of theirs.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BarakDeathBlade View Post
    Really have to argue on two points, first Luke was bulls-eyeing womp rats in his T-16, they're only about two meters. So the T-16 may be an atmospheric-only ship, but that's OK, Star Wars space combat is WWII combat in space. Luke was flying an armed craft on Tattoine.
    He was firing a metaphorical of a pop gun. Civilian weapon on a civilian ship.
    Quote Originally Posted by BarakDeathBlade View Post
    It's more like I let you drive a sedan, then I let you drive a station wagon version of the same car, but I put a bomb in the trunk.
    It's really not though. Luke talks a big game, but he doesn't know how space travel works ("Why don't you outrun them?" he asks about why they're not going to light speed) or basic functions on starship ("what's that?" he asks about the deflector shield). If you learned how to drive an automatic then got the same model car with manual, you sure as hell wouldn't be on an F1 track anytime soon, but Luke can manage. I've never once seen anyone complain about that, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Yes, I have wielded and fired firearms. And other types of weapons. Have you? Aligning the sights isn't rocket science. Hitting a target at short range is pretty easy, unless you are a total clutz.

    I'm not sure which scene you have in mind, but stormtroopers have shot at the protagonists in much more than once, usually trying to kill them.
    Yes, hitting a stationary target at short range is pretty easy. Deliberately not hitting multiple moving targets, while making it seem like you are trying to hit that target, especially when everyone can see where the shots are going, is significantly more difficult. This is what's happening in the Death Star (and, really, you're the one who called Luke's enemies incompetent, but you dont even know what scenes you're calling them incompetent in?).
    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    As for flying, yes, that's what I said. HAN does tricks, because HAN has a LOT of experience flying THAT particular ship.
    Look, you said you don't care about lore, you care about what you see on screen. On screen, Han does zero tricks. When the Star Destroyer is chasing down on him, says he knows a few maneuvers, but then flies in a straight line. If you only care about what you see on screen, then in ANH he does a whopping no tricks whatsoever.

    Luke, meanwhile, in a ship he's never been in before and didn't even know what deflector shields were a few hours before, out flies the TIE fighter complement that his teammates (who we can assume are trained military pilots) cannot. He's suddenly one of the Rebellion's best pilots with zero training and all of five minutes of Force instruction (remember, we're only going with what we see on screen, by your own assertion). But no, it's Rey who gets the complaints.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    But there's a difference between a good character that displays strength, and a character which is simply defined by strength. And "strong female characters", lately, is little more than a marketing con.
    For decades and decades, when we had a "female character" it was simply understood that the character will be a "female character who will be conveniently helpless and incompetent to allow the male characters to show their strength". Those were not "weak female characters", at least they were not thought of that way. There was no point in qualifying. Almost all female characters were that way.*

    "Strong female character" boils down to a "character who happens to be female who is allowed to be generally competent throughout".

    Now if you are much younger than me, perhaps the track record of recent movies is sufficiently mixed in your eyes that the point seems weird. That someone like Kathleen Kennedy uses the language of "strong female character" does not make her point wrong -- she has a lot of experience and data to back up her opinions.

    I am very happy to live to see the time that female characters in film are often allowed to be "strong" in a stupid marketing kind of way, just like countless male characters have been since forever. Alas some people, including both well-meaning and not so well-meaning people, are getting hung on terminology here, but I do not expect everything to be perfect all at once.

    As for marketing ever being non-stupid, for that I do not hold out hope.


    *(Part of the fun of the Leia character is that she was both literally a princess that needed rescuing and actually consistently competent. That was very odd back then in 1977. A neat trick on Lucas' part, but he had the advantage of copying the feel of Hidden Fortress.)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    I don’t understand why Indiana Jones was able to beat up that giant nazi mechanic dude. He’s literally a college anthropology professor. How did he get so good at fighting?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    I take it you've never tried to grab the last doughnut in the staff lounge.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I don’t understand why Indiana Jones was able to beat up that giant nazi mechanic dude. He’s literally a college anthropology professor. How did he get so good at fighting?
    It’s never shown in the movies so it’s up to you whether it was originally canon, but he served as a soldier for Belgium in World War 1.

    Edit: Also I haven’t been keeping up with the past few pages of... “conversation” and just realized that may have been your point.
    Last edited by Dogcula; 2019-08-23 at 01:09 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogcula View Post
    It’s never shown in the movies so it’s up to you whether it was originally canon, but he served as a soldier for Belgium in World War 1.
    Using a bayonet is nothing like punching, so that can't possibly be it. Punches have no pointy end and no rifle attached, so he couldn't possibly use that experience to learn universal melee skills like being aware of relative reach and watching his footing. He would need boxing training for that.

    So clearly the right answer is that Professor Jones (Sr) gave him boxing classes, offscreen, retroactively, and then never mentioned them
    Last edited by Cazero; 2019-08-23 at 01:16 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Well, yeah. They're both terrible individuals who richly deserve one another. The only individuals worth feeling sorry for here are the dwarves, caught in the crossfire of this little morality play of theirs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    And by a Wampa. After all that valuable Force training by Ben.
    I think you possibly missed the point of what he was saying. He said that characters occasionally failing makes for more interesting characters, regardless of their abilities, and yes, getting beat up by a Wampa was a failure on Luke's part. Can you think of any point in episodes 7 or 8 where Rey actually fails at something she sets out to do? At least, where she doesn't immediately succeed at the same task, thus making the failure somewhat irrelevant?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    Using a bayonet is nothing like punching, so that can't possibly be it. Punches have no pointy end and no rifle attached, so he couldn't possibly use that experience to learn universal melee skills like being aware of relative reach and watching his footing. He would need boxing training for that.

    So clearly the right answer is that Professor Jones (Sr) gave him boxing classes, offscreen, retroactively, and then never mentioned them
    Also bayonets were the only melee weapons (natural, improvised or otherwise) ever used in WWI, that's just well documented fact.

    Though I'm a tad confused about the intial post, I thought that mechanic was only killed/stayed down because of a moving propeller, it that part of the joke/irrelevant to it/ect?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think you possibly missed the point of what he was saying. He said that characters occasionally failing makes for more interesting characters, regardless of their abilities, and yes, getting beat up by a Wampa was a failure on Luke's part. Can you think of any point in episodes 7 or 8 where Rey actually fails at something she sets out to do? At least, where she doesn't immediately succeed at the same task, thus making the failure somewhat irrelevant?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Rey: ‘Come join the Resistance.’
    Luke: ‘Nope, you’re on your own, kid.’

    Rey: ‘Show me my parents.’
    The Dark Side: ‘Nope, you’re on your own, kid.’

    Rey: ‘Join the Light Side, we have cookies.’
    Kylo: ‘Nope, you’re on your own, kid.’
    Wait, so Rey's major failing is that her charisma is ****?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    Wait, so Rey's major failing is that her charisma is ****?
    You heard it here first people, Rey is clearly a min-maxed munchkin that dumped Charisma to get all the other stuff :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeTess View Post
    You heard it here first people, Rey is clearly a min-maxed munchkin that dumped Charisma to get all the other stuff :P
    She got a really good prestige class in return for it, though to be fair I think Kylo dumped a lot of Wisdom (and probably some Int) for Strength and a bit of Charisma so this min-mazing is pretty universal.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    She got a really good prestige class in return for it, though to be fair I think Kylo dumped a lot of Wisdom (and probably some Int) for Strength and a bit of Charisma so this min-mazing is pretty universal.
    Actually that’s a feature of the Sith Warrior subclass (well Knight of Ren since Third Edition) a Wisdom-for-Strength-and-Charisma trade. Not the intelligence, though.

    Sith Sorcerers get a way better deal, in my opinion, no additional Strength but some more Force Points and a spammable lightning attack that more than makes up for it. With that, the only things that can stop you are a Jedi Grandmaster with the Absorb Lightning Feat or a Jedi Battlemaster with Parry Lightning.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-08-23 at 05:59 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    You know, it seems very strange to me that there is so many sympathy to Hel in this thread.
    Maybe, just maybe, if Hel would not, for example, torture the dwarven souls for the rest of the eternity, the dwarfs would not develop such a honor-bound society (which is based on the same idea that anything is better than be forced to go to the Hel's afterlife)?
    ... and sorry for my bad English in the above post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thecommander236 View Post
    To be fair, why the hell did Loki decide to **** over his daughter so badly on the first place? I'm sure he had some reason for it, but it's still an incredibly horrible thing to do even if he is chaotic evil.
    My guess is he didn't think it through all the way, and didn't expect it to run on to this point. He didn't realise lack of Worship would be this detrimental, just like you never know you need certain vitamins till you try an all-meat diet. He thought this would be akin to cutting off Hel's pocket money but instead it's like cutting off her insulin. In short, he was a bit myopic in his pranking, and probably expected Thor to come out worse somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Actually that’s a feature of the Sith Warrior subclass (well Knight of Ren since Third Edition) a wisdom-Strength-and-Charisma trade. Not the intelligence, though.

    Sith Sorcerers get a way better deal, in my opinion, no additional Strength but some more Force Points and a spammable lightning attack that more than makes up for it. With that, the only things that can stop you are a Jedi Grandmaster with the Absorb Lightning Feat or a Jedi Battlemaster with Parry Lightning.
    He also took Chaotic-friendly Whiny Snot so he could get Berserk Rage, it doesn’t seem to have been all that useful barring the combat encounters with the wall.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Hey now, sorrow is not in limited supply. I am perfectly able to feel sorry for everyone in this situation.
    And if you are rich enough that money is not in a limited supply, you can flush 100€ bills down the toilet. But it's not going to be worth it. Not saying you shouldn't (or can't) feel sorry for the two evil bastards in the room. Just that it's not worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I don’t understand why Indiana Jones was able to beat up that giant nazi mechanic dude. He’s literally a college anthropology professor. How did he get so good at fighting?
    Huh, déjà vu
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    How exactly does a archaeology PhD develop skills with the whip?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by StragaSevera View Post
    You know, it seems very strange to me that there is so many sympathy to Hel in this thread.
    Maybe, just maybe, if Hel would not, for example, torture the dwarven souls for the rest of the eternity, the dwarfs would not develop such a honor-bound society (which is based on the same idea that anything is better than be forced to go to the Hel's afterlife)?
    That's indeed an excelent point, you know?

    I mean, surely, Loki did a number on damaging Hel, but guess what? She would still be the default dominion of dwarven souls if they had chosen to go to her.

    From this line (panel 11), it's possible to infer that the dwarves that die with honor go to the normal afterlife way, what means they go to the plane of their gods, or the plane that matches their alignments.

    If most dwarves already revered her, she would get them, honor or no honor.

    Since dwarves are all she got, she could (and should, probably) make them her "chosen race", treating them with some level of preference and privileges (they are already more resistant to poison, and their higher Con makes then more resistant to diseases: that could be all considered "a blessing of Hel").

    Even establish some form of undead dwarven clergy. Her "holy scriptures" might say that, in order to dedicate oneself to Hel, one must forfeit life and become undead to be a priest.

    And she could still keep tormenting the living of other races, with shingles or whatever, but her dwarves, her death ambassadors, her sturdy mensegers of despair, they would thrive under her rule.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Not saying you shouldn't (or can't) feel sorry for the two evil bastards in the room. Just that it's not worth it.
    I don’t get the nuance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I think you possibly missed the point of what he was saying. He said that characters occasionally failing makes for more interesting characters, regardless of their abilities, and yes, getting beat up by a Wampa was a failure on Luke's part. Can you think of any point in episodes 7 or 8 where Rey actually fails at something she sets out to do? At least, where she doesn't immediately succeed at the same task, thus making the failure somewhat irrelevant?
    She went with Kylo Ren to confront Snoke convinced that she would be able to turn him back to the Light Side. That one kind of blew up in her face.

    I've noticed multiple comments claiming that Luke was only doing basic maneuvers in his X-wing. Remember the scene that showed how Luke's fighter was dancing around like crazy in Darth Vader's targeting sight? Prompting Vader to comment about how strong the Force was in this one? We saw multiple other rebel fighters in the same context, and NONE of them were managing anything like that. Whatever the limitations of the technology in portraying such things on screen at the time, the narrative implication was clear. Whether he was doing it on his own, or whether he was using the Force to guide him (and given that the very next scene was Ben's voice telling Luke to let go and use the Force instead of whatever he was currently doing, and that the very moment Luke agrees to do this and focus on the Force, Vader immediately gets him into shooting position, necessitating the save by Han, I would say that narrative is pretty clearly suggesting that Luke WASN'T using the Force to help him actually fly the fighter) Luke was managing complex, advanced evasive maneuvers so proficiently that Darth Vader, one of the best and most experienced combat pilots in the galaxy, was impressed.

    And that is all I am going to say about this particular irrelevant tangent.

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