OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

[Wizard_Lizard]

I was thinking about buying a prosthetic hand when some people nearby started to inquire on the stats of the hands and eyes of Vader and Palpatine, Squire appeared and asked if they were being sold, where some sort of lizardman wizard revealed he owned part of Plagiuses left big toenail, he the offered to sell his Maul legs, I then inquired, completely legitimately, just to help any future investigation, if he had any others and he revealed that he won then from a shady guy in a trench coat, who had crazy grey hair, carried a stick and had dark blue eyes. He then stole my antique pineapple trilobite replacement shells, and received several offers on the legs, I believe the wizard who was a lizard man revealed he was collecting Maul's legs, while a good person revealed that he owned pieces of a failed jedi and the nameplate of one Jedi Oboe-wand Ken-no-buy.

I hope my information proves useful and helpful in finding the unredeemably evil wizard and Squire, who are the only people involved who have done anything illegal and anything they say otherwise is slander.

*I do believe that you mean LizardFOLK.

*Immediatly shoves jar full of Asaaj Ventress's kidney stones underneath bed.*

[Kantaki]

And a massive hypocrite, but that goes without saying.

How so?
Because he tried to find a way to cheat death?
But that's entirely in line with his own teachings.

There are always two Sith.
The master, embodying power.
The apprentice yearning for that power.
When there's nothing more to gain from the master the apprentice challenges them.
The strongest survives and leads the Order.

If your apprentice lets you take over their body they clearly weren't worthy of replacing you.

The Sith are all about strength and power after all.
As long as you're the strongest, most powerful Sith you are the boss.

If anyone did it wrong then Palpatine.
Murdering your master in his sleep is not the true way.

[Schroeswald]

How so?
Because he tried to find a way to cheat death?
But that's entirely in line with his own teachings.

There are always two Sith.
The master, embodying power.
The apprentice yearning for that power.
When there's nothing more to gain from the master the apprentice challenges them.
The strongest survives and leads the Order.

If your apprentice lets you take over their body they clearly weren't worthy of replacing you.

The Sith are all about strength and power after all.
As long as you're the strongest, most powerful Sith you are the boss.

If anyone did it wrong then Palpatine.
Murdering your master in his sleep is not the true way.

In the last days of his life Bane became so worried about Zannah killing him when he was weak that he started running across the galaxy looking for a way to cheat death, and then whilst that went on he sent his apprentice on some distraction mission, which led to the one person who could disprove their lie finding them, and Zannah training a fool who would proceed to steal Bane’s holocron. When they went to battle Zannah had no apprentice, but Bane had taken one.

But yes, Palpatine (and Plagueis, and probably Tenobrous before him) cared precisely not at all about the Rule of Two, Plagueis was apprenticeless for years and let his apprentice have his own apprentice for more than a decade.

[Fyraltari]

How so?
Because he tried to find a way to cheat death?
But that's entirely in line with his own teachings.

There are always two Sith.
The master, embodying power.
The apprentice yearning for that power.
When there's nothing more to gain from the master the apprentice challenges them.
The strongest survives and leads the Order.

If your apprentice lets you take over their body they clearly weren't worthy of replacing you.

The Sith are all about strength and power after all.
As long as you're the strongest, most powerful Sith you are the boss.

If anyone did it wrong then Palpatine.
Murdering your master in his sleep is not the true way.

Four things :

1) His worldview that the "weak" are only weak because they lack the will and ruthlessness of the "strong" and that one must deserve their power conviniently ignores that he, like all force users was born with an advantage.

2) He objects to Kaan uniting the Sith by co-operating as a perversion (ironically this makes the Brotherhood of Darkness the most dangerous iteration of the Sith Order if only for the fact that it slightly tempered the madness inherent to Sith teachings with actual common sense) even after it was revealed that Kaan used deception and mind control to enslave the other Sith Lords, making him a true Dark Lord in everything but name, one who ironically enough stikes a balance between the sheer power of the previous Sith Empire and the cunning of Bane's Order.

3) He objects to Zannah bidding her time to kill him, waiting for him to become weaker despite it being the core of his grand plan to overthrow the Jedi.

4) The basis of the whole Rule of Two is that it would allow the Order to grow and evolve something that is impossible with an immortal master.

Bane is very good at spinning rationalizations for his actions but he changes his tune every time it becomes convienient for him and fails to see it, making him an hypocrite. He claims that the Sith should do anything to reach their objectives and then criticizes other Sith for their actions which is inconsistent. And you know what a person with inconsistent beliefs is? An hypocrite.

Also I disagree with your assessment of Sidious' actions. He manipulated his master so that Plagueis himself would put him in a postion to hijack his own plan and once he had no further use for him, he got him drunk he murdered him. Cunning is just as valid a form of power as brute strength, hell for the Sith, especially the Rule of Two Sith, it is more valid since their whole plan is based on stealth and deception and indeed a powerful warrior with no cunning would just end up being somebdy's pawn.

Plagueis was dumb enough to lower his guard around a man he taught to be the best manipulator possible and who murdered his own parents, what was he even thinking?

He was thinking, like all Sith, that the rules don't apply to him, because the Sith teachings amount to a bunch of decorations around the core of "I am the only thing that matters in this universe".

So yeah, when I say that Bane is a massive hypocrite that just means he is a good product of the "philosophy" he embraced since being a Sith amounts to being a blood-thirsty power-mad raging megalomaniac.

[Schroeswald]

Four things :

1) His worldview that the "weak" are only weak because they lack the will and ruthlessness of the "strong" and that one must deserve their power conviniently ignores that he, like all force users was born with an advantage.

An Evil character with an Evil and wrong philosophy!

2) He objects to Kaan uniting the Sith by co-operating as a perversion (ironically this makes the Brotherhood of Darkness the most dangerous iteration of the Sith Order if only for the fact that it slightly tempered the madness inherent to Sith teachings with actual common sense) even after it was revealed that Kaan used deception and mind control to enslave the other Sith Lords, making him a true Dark Lord in everything but name, one who ironically enough stikes a balance between the sheer power of the previous Sith Empire and the cunning of Bane's Order.

Might I remind you that he was going crazy at time of death? I also don’t understand how the one that was trapped on one planet for years slowly grinding away morale and resources is better than the ones that actually took over half the galaxy/the entire Republic.

3) He objects to Zannah bidding her time to kill him, waiting for him to become weaker despite it being the core of his grand plan to overthrow the Jedi.

He objects to her waiting because he think she’ll wait for him to be so weak the fight is easy, which proves nothing of her strength, he wants her to be stronger than him and sitting around doing nothing proves nothing but being patient.

4) The basis of the whole Rule of Two is that it would allow the Order to grow and evolve something that is impossible with an immortal master.

But Bane didn’t want to be immortal? He wants every Sith to be killed by another and he’ll take over another body so he can live long enough for that to happen to him, what he did was bad for the Sith because it allowed that, but living forever was never in his thought processes.

Bane is very good at spinning rationalizations for his actions but he changes his tune every time it becomes convienient for him and fails to see it, making him an hypocrite. He claims that the Sith should do anything to reach their objectives and then criticizes other Sith for their actions which is inconsistent. And you know what a person with inconsistent beliefs is? An hypocrite.

Yup, I’m only disagreeing with your reasonings here.

Also I disagree with your assessment of Sidious' actions. He manipulated his master so that Plagueis himself would put him in a postion to hijack his own plan and once he had no further use for him, he got him drunk he murdered him. Cunning is just as valid a form of power as brute strength, hell for the Sith, especially the Rule of Two Sith, it is more valid since their whole plan is based on stealth and deception and indeed a powerful warrior with no cunning would just end up being somebdy's pawn.

Plagueis was dumb enough to lower his guard around a man he taught to be the best manipulator possible and who murdered his own parents, what was he even thinking?

He was thinking, like all Sith, that the rules don't apply to him, because the Sith teachings amount to a bunch of decorations around the core of "I am the only thing that matters in this universe".

So yeah, when I say that Bane is a massive hypocrite that just means he is a good product of the "philosophy" he embraced since being a Sith amounts to being a blood-thirsty power-mad raging megalomaniac.

Only debating Palpatine here, the thing is he only proved better in that one respect, in cunning, I mean he was definitely much stronger than Plagueis in all ways that mattered (including killing his master, Plagueis just sort of led a rockslide kill his), on the other hand Zannah (who is the best Sith ever and will murder everyone who disagrees) beat Bane in every single possible way one could win, better power, proficient enough in lightsaber combat, in cunning, in patience, and finally in willpower even if Bane only really cared about the force and the lightsaber.

[danielxcutter]

...Why was Tsukiko a parody of a Mary Sue again? The different colored eyes, the goth fashion style, and maybe double casting or something? Feels like more "special snowflake uwu" or anime parody, though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

...Why was Tsukiko a parody of a Mary Sue again? The different colored eyes, the goth fashion style, and maybe double casting or something? Feels like more "special snowflake uwu" or anime parody, though.

And the conviction that if you love undead enough, they will love you back. This is the crucial characteristic, clear parody of the fantasy YA romance genre (which reached its pinnacle and most public notoriety with Twilight, and fills entire sections of bookstores). This genre is famous for the number of fanfiction it generates, and how often the fanfiction is published in its own right, so the worst examples do tend to contain a substantial amount of Mary Sues.

Grey Wolf

[danielxcutter]

And the conviction that if you love undead enough, they will love you back. This is the crucial characteristic, clear parody of the fantasy YA romance genre (which reached its pinnacle and most public notoriety with Twilight, and fills entire sections of bookstores)

Grey Wolf

Ah. I can see that then.

Guess the Mystic Theurge part was mostly just secondary and not a "can doez everything lulz" thing, then.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ah. I can see that then.

Guess the Mystic Theurge part was mostly just secondary and not a "can doez everything lulz" thing, then.

No, it is part of the package, I’d say. Especially given her comment about having more spells per day than RC. Now, we could split hairs over whether it’s a true parody or a deconstruction or simply commentary, and I can see a case for each one of those.

Ultimately, she’s an interesting complement to Tarquin: both are characters that believe themselves to be main characters in the narrative, but turned out to have misread the genre. So in a way they’ve become a sort of signature character for Rich.

Grey Wolf

[Cazero]

You know what's really funny about the whole Sith situation regarding the movies? Kylo Ren was the only one to kill his master to take his place on the big screen, and that makes him best Sith by default.

[Schroeswald]

You know what's really funny about the whole Sith situation regarding the movies? Kylo Ren was the only one to kill his master to take his place on the big screen, and that makes him best Sith by default.

Not even off-brand Canon Zannah was able to do it (and I’m not bitter), technically in all of canon only Kylo is actually confirmed to do it, we don’t know much about Plagueis so Palpatine might not have killed him, and then we don’t know any other older Sith besides Bane and knock-off Zannah and the Jedi killed Bane.

EDIT: No wait, Sidious was confirmed to kill him, so just Sidious and Kylo in all of canon.

[Peelee]

Not even off-brand Canon Zannah was able to do it (and I’m not bitter), technically in all of canon only Kylo is actually confirmed to do it, we don’t know much about Plagueis so Palpatine might not have killed him, and then we don’t know any other older Sith besides Bane and knock-off Zannah and the Jedi killed Bane.

EDIT: No wait, Sidious was confirmed to kill him, so just Sidious and Kylo in all of canon.

That's kind of like saying we only see the Millennium Falcon actually make the jump to lightspeed in the first movie so the Death Star wasn't confirmed as hyperspace-capable.

[Fyraltari]

An Evil character with an Evil and wrong philosophy!

Yup.

Might I remind you that he was going crazy at time of death?

Sith aren,'t known for their mental stability. It's been a while but wasn't that, at least in parts, due to Bane?

I also don’t understand how the one that was trapped on one planet for years slowly grinding away morale and resources is better than the ones that actually took over half the galaxy/the entire Republic.

You mean the Sith Emperor? Well for one he didn't exist when the novels were written but didn't he turned out not to be a Sith but a guy from yet another Empire or something like that?
Because it allows the Sith to work with another (a little bit) rather than constantly against one another.
Also wasn't the idea that should the army of light be beaten on this planet, conquering the galay would be a breeze or something?

He objects to her waiting because he think she’ll wait for him to be so weak the fight is easy, which proves nothing of her strength, he wants her to be stronger than him and sitting around doing nothing proves nothing but being patient.

Which is the number one quality needed by a strategist and the core of Bane's grand plan.
One must know which fights to pick and when. Especially since this wasn't even what Zannah was doing. She just thought that she had more to learn from Bane.

But Bane didn’t want to be immortal? He wants every Sith to be killed by another and he’ll take over another body so he can live long enough for that to happen to him, what he did was bad for the Sith because it allowed that, but living forever was never in his thought processes.

Yesssss, he sure says that he wants to be killed by an apprentice, but when he start getting older it looks like his apprentice is going to get a shot he decides to look for ways to become immortal. Totally because Zannajh isn't doing right, you guys, the fact that that would mean he wouldn't have to die never crossed his mind at all. After all it's not like people have different opinions on the inevitability of their own death when it sounds like a far-away prospect and when it looks close.

Only debating Palpatine here, the thing is he only proved better in that one respect, in cunning, I mean he was definitely much stronger than Plagueis in all ways that mattered (including killing his master, Plagueis just sort of led a rockslide kill his), on the other hand Zannah (who is the best Sith ever and will murder everyone who disagrees) beat Bane in every single possible way one could win, better power, proficient enough in lightsaber combat, in cunning, in patience, and finally in willpower even if Bane only really cared about the force and the lightsaber.

I may remember this wrong but wasn't it Bane who organized their final duel? I don't remember actually outsmarting him per se.

Not even off-brand Canon Zannah was able to do it (and I’m not bitter),
[...] the Jedi killed Bane

Source?

we don’t know any other older Sith besides Bane and knock-off Zannah

And a handful more.

[Schroeswald]

Sith aren,'t known for their mental stability. It's been a while but wasn't that, at least in parts, due to Bane?

He was definitely going insane before Bane returned but yeah, Bane did push him into thinking "Hey, blowing up this force killing bomb is a good idea!"

You mean the Sith Emperor? Well for one he didn't exist when the novels were written but didn't he turned out not to be a Sith but a guy from yet another Empire or something like that?
Because it allows the Sith to work with another (a little bit) rather than constantly against one another.
Also wasn't the idea that should the army of light be beaten on this planet, conquering the galay would be a breeze or something?

I'm pretty sure the emperor was a Sith (maybe not a member of the still-extant species but he was a high-powered dark side user leading an empire of people called Sith), and I did forget that he didn't exist when the novels were written, but you know Watsonian perspective, the Sith Empire still existed, but no one felt like mentioning it until he was created. And the Sith were better at working together, but they were still very good at tearing each other apart, I'm not sure I can say they were any better. I think they had a very good chance of winning if they killed the Army of Light, but the campaign would have ground both down to very little, whoever won would be pretty weak, and there were still quite a few high-power Jedi outside of the planet, and every single high-powered Sith was on Ruusan, its reasonable to think that either the Army would get reinforcements or just win, or that it would be pretty hard to take over the republic after taking out the Jedi.

Which is the number one quality needed by a strategist and the core of Bane's grand plan.
One must know which fights to pick and when. Especially since this wasn't even what Zannah was doing. She just thought that she had more to learn from Bane.

Patience was very important and I don't think Bane really understood that, but you also have to take initiative, give corporations more rights, take control of the businesses, bribe the government and get yourself elected before creating an emergency, and well Bane didn't think Zannah was poisoning him did he. He was wrong, but Zannah was in fact looking for an apprentice and wary of Bane tricking her into thinking he was weak.

Yesssss, he sure says that he wants to be killed by an apprentice, but when he start getting older it looks like his apprentice is going to get a shot he decides to look for ways to become immortal. Totally because Zannajh isn't doing right, you guys, the fact that that would mean he wouldn't have to die never crossed his mind at all. After all it's not like people have different opinions on the inevitability of their own death when it sounds like a far-away prospect and when it looks close.

I find it hard to find the line between "never wants to die" and "will be fanatically devoted into ensuring that his apprentice is powerful enough to kill him by fighting as hard as possible to live", which I think makes Occam's razor fall in my favor considering that his thought processes (which we saw) are much more in line with the latter, and in book two he tried to get her to kill him rather than surrender to the Jedi.

I may remember this wrong but wasn't it Bane who organized their final duel? I don't remember actually outsmarting him per se.

Not choosing a battlefield that disadvantages you counts as outsmarting, and then using the battlefield to the advantage, counts as outsmarting in my book (though not by any overwhelming force).

Source?

It says that they defeated him, which unless Knock-off Zannah used the exact same strategy as in Legends means they killed him, though it is less certain than I made it out to be.

And a handful more.

I guess that is true, though they are all pre-Rule of Two

And I must say I love the direction this thread is going, the Bane books are some of my favorite and debating star wars without discussing genocide or sexism is fun.

[Fyraltari]

He was definitely going insane before Bane returned but yeah, Bane did push him into thinking "Hey, blowing up this force killing bomb is a good idea!"


I'm pretty sure the emperor was a Sith (maybe not a member of the still-extant species but he was a high-powered dark side user leading an empire of people called Sith), and I did forget that he didn't exist when the novels were written, but you know Watsonian perspective, the Sith Empire still existed, but no one felt like mentioning it until he was created. And the Sith were better at working together, but they were still very good at tearing each other apart, I'm not sure I can say they were any better. I think they had a very good chance of winning if they killed the Army of Light, but the campaign would have ground both down to very little, whoever won would be pretty weak, and there were still quite a few high-power Jedi outside of the planet, and every single high-powered Sith was on Ruusan, its reasonable to think that either the Army would get reinforcements or just win, or that it would be pretty hard to take over the republic after taking out the Jedi.

I'll concede that the the Brotherhood of Darkness wasn't the most efficient iteration of the Sith Order.
But it certainly wasn't the worst as Bane thought. It probably was the sanest though.

Patience was very important and I don't think Bane really understood that, but you also have to take initiative, give corporations more rights, take control of the businesses, bribe the government and get yourself elected before creating an emergency

That was Sidious' plan, not Bane's. Bane's plan amounted to "be as stealthy as possible while stirring as much toruble for the Republic and the Jedi as possible and wait for an opportunity to arise". In fact, Darth Plagueis basically states that far from all acting the same millenium-long plan each successive Dark Lord had their own idea of how to take over the Galaxy and all were murdered by their apprentice before fullfilling it (except Sidous, obviously). Which was a big flaw of Bane's reformation in hidsight.

and well Bane didn't think Zannah was poisoning him did he. He was wrong, but Zannah was in fact looking for an apprentice and wary of Bane tricking her into thinking he was weak.

I'm not sure I understand your point here.

I find it hard to find the line between "never wants to die" and "will be fanatically devoted into ensuring that his apprentice is powerful enough to kill him by fighting as hard as possible to live", which I think makes Occam's razor fall in my favor considering that his thought processes (which we saw) are much more in line with the latter, and in book two he tried to get her to kill him rather than surrender to the Jedi.

The Jedi were going to kill him no matter what so it was basically a choice between being avenged in the future or not. The thing is becoming a body-snatcher makes it impossible for his apprentice to kill him, it's self defeating.

Not choosing a battlefield that disadvantages you counts as outsmarting, and then using the battlefield to the advantage, counts as outsmarting in my book (though not by any overwhelming force).

Didn't she beat him by using her energy tentacles of death or something?

It says that they defeated him, which unless Knock-off Zannah used the exact same strategy as in Legends means they killed him, though it is less certain than I made it out to be.

"It" is not a source. Wookieepedia states that the Jedi "defeated him" which could mean anything and that "Although historical records were not accurate about [...] how Bane died, it seemed possible he was murdered by his student".

I guess that is true, though they are all pre-Rule of Two

One of them does kill his master, though.

And I must say I love the direction this thread is going, the Bane books are some of my favorite and debating star wars without discussing genocide or sexism is fun.

Seconded.

[Jasdoif]

Knock-off Zannah

Ersatz Zannah? ...Ersatzannah?

[Schroeswald]

I'll concede that the the Brotherhood of Darkness wasn't the most efficient iteration of the Sith Order.
But it certainly wasn't the worst as Bane thought. It probably was the sanest though.

It was not nearly as bad as Bane thought, I could see an argument for it being the worst if only because most iterations of the Sith were pretty successful, even the Lost Tribe managed to get a few points in (winning a war with an enemy who has been preparing to kill you for millennia is pretty good).

That was Sidious' plan, not Bane's. Bane's plan amounted to "be as stealthy as possible while stirring as much toruble for the Republic and the Jedi as possible and wait for an opportunity to arise". In fact, Darth Plagueis basically states that far from all acting the same millenium-long plan each successive Dark Lord had their own idea of how to take over the Galaxy and all were murdered by their apprentice before fullfilling it (except Sidous, obviously). Which was a big flaw of Bane's reformation in hidsight.

All in all his plan was pretty vague and Palpatine filled it in, my point was meant to be that she wasn't helping him along all that much, which makes sense because she wasn't prepared yet. Also point taken on the different ideas stuff, though I imagine whatever quite a few of them were planning (most of them up till Gravid and then quite a few since), they would likely need more time than the person's natural lifespan (especially those recruited older like Cognus), and that at least Tenebrous's, Plagueis's and Sidious's plans seem much the same and continued with slight modifications after each death, but yes, that is a flaw once you are capable of taking out the enemy in a timespan of a few decades.

I'm not sure I understand your point here.

My intended point there (which didn't come across well I recognize), was that Zannah had different reasonings for waiting than you had said, but yeah, that does look wrong.

The Jedi were going to kill him no matter what so it was basically a choice between being avenged in the future or not. The thing is becoming a body-snatcher makes it impossible for his apprentice to kill him, it's self defeating.

Point taken and then, I mean Zannah (stop correcting me autocorrect!) was able to defeat the body-snatching so imortality wasn't necessary, it just likely would have extended his lifespan by quite a bit and likely have made it far too hard to kill him.

Didn't she beat him by using her energy tentacles of death or something?

Yes, but IIRC those tentacles were so powerful due to the special dark side stain on Ambria, though I might remember wrong.

"It" is not a source. Wookieepedia states that the Jedi "defeated him" which could mean anything and that "Although historical records were not accurate about [...] how Bane died, it seemed possible he was murdered by his student".

Oh yes, I probably should have linked to the page, but yeah, it is possible but unless all of the Bane books are canon I find his survival unlikely, but that's just me.

One of them does kill his master, though.

Maybe he is the best Sith in canon then.

[Fyraltari]

It was not nearly as bad as Bane thought, I could see an argument for it being the worst if only because most iterations of the Sith were pretty successful, even the Lost Tribe managed to get a few points in (winning a war with an enemy who has been preparing to kill you for millennia is pretty good).

To be honest the Sith are only successful because the writers need them to be threatening and so keep showering them with new powers and resources out of nowhere (literally with the Star Forge) and glossing over the workings of their successive empires. Which isn't necessarily a problem, or at least one I can overlook given the genre.

All in all his plan was pretty vague and Palpatine filled it in, my point was meant to be that she wasn't helping him along all that much, which makes sense because she wasn't prepared yet.

Wasn't she doing most of the legwork? Bribing this guy, killing this guy and so on?

Also point taken on the different ideas stuff, though I imagine whatever quite a few of them were planning (most of them up till Gravid and then quite a few since), they would likely need more time than the person's natural lifespan (especially those recruited older like Cognus),

Yes that is the problem, the Rule of Two cannot ensure continuity. Sith are headstrong by nature and therefore unlikely to follow somebody else's plan, and given that there are only two of them at a given time each basically starts from scratch when they kill their master.

and that at least Tenebrous's, Plagueis's and Sidious's plans seem much the same and continued with slight modifications after each death, but yes, that is a flaw once you are capable of taking out the enemy in a timespan of a few decades.

Sidious claims that most of Plagueis' plan was his idea (and in fairness Plagueis seemed much more concerned with achieving true immortality than ruling the galaxy), though.

My intended point there (which didn't come across well I recognize), was that Zannah had different reasonings for waiting than you had said, but yeah, that does look wrong.

Right.

Point taken and then, I mean Zannah (stop correcting me autocorrect!) was able to defeat the body-snatching so imortality wasn't necessary, it just likely would have extended his lifespan by quite a bit and likely have made it far too hard to kill him.

Body-snatching is immortality. He was planning to live inside Zannah's body and probably Cognus' later on. And he would have gone on like that, justifiying each snatching with the apprentice not being up to his standard forever. In fact there was a popular theory (based on Zannah's shaking hand at the end) that this was what had happened and that Sidious was Bane until the author put his foot down and stated that Zannah did beat Bane.

Yes, but IIRC those tentacles were so powerful due to the special dark side stain on Ambria, though I might remember wrong.

That's possible, though that would probably boost Bane's abilities as well, no?

Oh yes, I probably should have linked to the page, but yeah, it is possible but unless all of the Bane books are canon I find his survival unlikely, but that's just me.

Oh, he is dead, sure enough, but I don't see the Jedi giving him a tomb on Korriban Moraband.

EDIT: That's Mark Hamill doing the voice, by the way, which is just great.

[Forikroder]

No, it is part of the package, I’d say. Especially given her comment about having more spells per day than RC. Now, we could split hairs over whether it’s a true parody or a deconstruction or simply commentary, and I can see a case for each one of those.

Ultimately, she’s an interesting complement to Tarquin: both are characters that believe themselves to be main characters in the narrative, but turned out to have misread the genre. So in a way they’ve become a sort of signature character for Rich.

Grey Wolf

Tarquin doesnt believe hes the main character just believes hes more of an end game villain then Xykon

and he was technically spot on, Elan was going to go after Xykon first before coming back for him

[Schroeswald]

[QUOTE=Fyraltari;24108438]To be honest the Sith are only successful because the writers need them to be threatening and so keep showering them with new powers and resources out of nowhere (literally with the Star Forge) and glossing over the workings of their successive empires. Which isn't necessarily a problem, or at least one I can overlook given the genre.[QUOTE]
Yeah, which is also why they keep giving massive periods of time between the rise of each Sith order, the amount of times the Sith rose from the ashes in Legends is a cliche at this point(and I bet you they'll do it a few more time before SWTOR stops updating).

Wasn't she doing most of the legwork? Bribing this guy, killing this guy and so on?

But not in the plan of killing Bane, she did most of the work as part of the plan but because Bane was weakening due to old age her killing him when he was weak would be mostly independent of her.

Yes that is the problem, the Rule of Two cannot ensure continuity. Sith are headstrong by nature and therefore unlikely to follow somebody else's plan, and given that there are only two of them at a given time each basically starts from scratch when they kill their master.

Agreed

Sidious claims that most of Plagueis' plan was his idea (and in fairness Plagueis seemed much more concerned with achieving true immortality than ruling the galaxy), though.

My interpretation of the book was that Plagueis and Tenebrous had at least been weakening the republic for decades when Palpatine joined the Sith, though he definitely made the specific plans we saw in the prequels.

Body-snatching is immortality. He was planning to live inside Zannah's body and probably Cognus' later on. And he would have gone on like that, justifiying each snatching with the apprentice not being up to his standard forever. In fact there was a popular theory (based on Zannah's shaking hand at the end) that this was what had happened and that Sidious was Bane until the author put his foot down and stated that Zannah did beat Bane.

Of course, I'd say eventually someone would manage to resist him and end him, though it would be at a point that yeah, Bane was very counterproductive to this whole Plan thing.

That's possible, though that would probably boost Bane's abilities as well, no?

I checked Wookipedia, so what happened was specifically the tendrils were brought out of the nexus.

Oh, he is dead, sure enough, but I don't see the Jedi giving him a tomb on Korriban Moraband.

EDIT: That's Mark Hamill doing the voice, by the way, which is just great.

I meant surviving the Jedi "defeating" him, but no matter what ErsatZannah buried him.

[Sindeloke]

Oh, he is dead, sure enough, but I don't see the Jedi giving him a tomb on Korriban Moraband.

Istanbul, Constantinople. Korriban, Moraband. Tython, Ach-to. Potato, tomato.

Anyway the unsustainable insanity of the Sith is, yes, 100% due to the genre, but I kind of like the tension it creates. You've got the True Believers like Kreia and Bane, who convince themselves that they're actually making the community stronger by purging weakness and encouraging struggle, and to some extent it's understandable that people find that appealing. We are both selfish and social animals, we love the idea that we can help our friends and family by indulging our personal desire for power or self-satisfaction. And then that philosophy inevitably promotes the rise of and and provides cover for folks like Vitiate or Palpatine, who genuinely don't care about "the Sith" or any other in-group at all and will happily burn the universe down as long as they can wrestle an empire out of the ashes. And they all have to exist in this very tenuous space where the True Believers can't ever realize the full implications of their philosophies and the other guys have to pretend they're True Believers in order to protect their power base among the True Believers, and it can make for some interesting storytelling.

Or for groups of fans that completely miss the point and think the good guys are jerks, the bad guys are justified and make perfect sense, and it's biased nonsense that the bad guy organization always falls apart, but that's not a phenomenon limited to Star Wars.

[Peelee]

Istanbul, Constantinople. Korriban, Moraband. Tython, Ach-to. Potato, tomato.

Why did Constantinople get the works?

[Schroeswald]

Istanbul, Constantinople. Korriban, Moraband. Tython, Ach-to. Potato, tomato.

Anyway the unsustainable insanity of the Sith is, yes, 100% due to the genre, but I kind of like the tension it creates. You've got the True Believers like Kreia and Bane, who convince themselves that they're actually making the community stronger by purging weakness and encouraging struggle, and to some extent it's understandable that people find that appealing. We are both selfish and social animals, we love the idea that we can help our friends and family by indulging our personal desire for power or self-satisfaction. And then that philosophy inevitably promotes the rise of and and provides cover for folks like Vitiate or Palpatine, who genuinely don't care about "the Sith" or any other in-group at all and will happily burn the universe down as long as they can wrestle an empire out of the ashes. And they all have to exist in this very tenuous space where the True Believers can't ever realize the full implications of their philosophies and the other guys have to pretend they're True Believers in order to protect their power base among the True Believers, and it can make for some interesting storytelling.

Or for groups of fans that completely miss the point and think the good guys are jerks, the bad guys are justified and make perfect sense, and it's biased nonsense that the bad guy organization always falls apart, but that's not a phenomenon limited to Star Wars.

The Sith are all bonkers, every single one of them (except for maybe Vectivus whose characterization being real I loathe with a passion), for example I’m reading one of the Legacy of the Force books and Jacen just got mad at Luke for being suspicious of him, when he was up to something (he also thinks being a Sith is the best way to save the galaxy but that’s big picture stuff).

Why did Constantinople get the works?

That’s nooobodys business but the Turks.

[Goblin_Priest]

You realize it wasn’t meant to be literal, right, I mean I was mostly talking about OOTS when I responded, and I completely ignored Hailey in it, because we were making a joke that wasn’t meant to be 100% accurate.

Wait, someone called Haley a Mary Sue?

There's no Mary Sue in OotS. Only Rey. OotS has deux ex machina instead.

[Schroeswald]

Wait, someone called Haley a Mary Sue?

There's no Mary Sue in OotS. Only Rey. OotS has deux ex machina instead.

I completely ignored that no one really insults Haley, everyone likes her, I was making fun of the insane hate so many female characters get (Miko, Celia, Hilgya, Bandana, Andi), and ignoring that no one insults Haley.

Also, what is your opinion on Darth Zannah? Is she an Evil Mary Sue? She after all used power force skills to kill people without ever meeting a Jedi Master. I'd much rather talk about her some more than Rey, or Mary Sues, or deus es machinas.

[Peelee]

Also, what is your opinion on Darth Zannah? Is she an Evil Mary Sue? She after all used power force skills to kill people without ever meeting a Jedi Master.

Bane too, IIRC.

[Schroeswald]

Bane too, IIRC.

Oh yes, I don't think he actually met a Jedi Master until the second book, but somewhat seriously, he is just as much a Mary Sue as Rey is (barring the whole being Evil thing), he's super strong in the force, he used a lot of it before any training, had plenty of other skills that were explained/explicitly stated to come from his backstory, by Goblin Priest's definition he is clearly an Evil Marty Stu (if such a thing is possible).

[Snails]

...Why was Tsukiko a parody of a Mary Sue again? The different colored eyes, the goth fashion style, and maybe double casting or something? Feels like more "special snowflake uwu" or anime parody, though.

I would rate Tsukiko as an affectionate parody of goth sub-culture with emphasis on the YA aspects. It is not meant as a meaningful statement, certainly not a negative one.

More in the spirit of "I wonder if we shoehorned a goth who thought she was in a YA novel in this universe, could that be funny?"

[Snails]

Wait, someone called Haley a Mary Sue?

Didn't she call Tarquin a "silver fox"? Need I say more?

[Goblin_Priest]

I completely ignored that no one really insults Haley, everyone likes her, I was making fun of the insane hate so many female characters get (Miko, Celia, Hilgya, Bandana, Andi), and ignoring that no one insults Haley.

Also, what is your opinion on Darth Zannah? Is she an Evil Mary Sue? She after all used power force skills to kill people without ever meeting a Jedi Master. I'd much rather talk about her some more than Rey, or Mary Sues, or deus es machinas.

I have no knowledge of Darth Zannah. I heard bits of EU material, and I never had any interest in wasting any time on any of those books. Even if some do receive some praise. To me, SW is limited to the movies. Though I guess I should go ahead and watch Clone Wars, one day. Not a huge fan of animated content, though, especially since the quality of the animations is underwhelming.

One can dislike a character without disliking their characterization, though. Content vs container thing. I have a hard time getting emotions for what I'd feel about Rey as a fictional person, because my immersion is completely broken almost every time we see her, pulling some new stunt that contrasts so much with the 6 previous films.

Miko has none of these issues. More like a love to hate kind of thing. So, overall, positive, I never thought she hindered the story, and indeed, quite the opposite. Same with Celia, and Hilgya, who are handy tools to make fun of various D&D tropes (alignment systems, murderhoboism, racial cultural tropes, etc.). I love to hate characters like that, when our GMs bring them at our table. And gender has really nothing to do with it, the characters I've hated with most passion tended to be male (curse you, friendly and helpful magical gnome that pops in to help once it doesn't matter anymore! I'LL KILL YA!). Bandana and Andi aren't really amusing or interesting all that much, but there's nothing wrong with punctual support characters to help make the setting a bit more dynamic, project a bit of lore about the world the heroes evolve in. I'd rather have spent a bit less time on them, but that's not something I feel strongly about.