OOTS #1176 - The Discussion Thread

[gatemansgc]

dang all the souls hel gave up are leaving her drained.

i like the touch with the changes in the speech bubbles!

[The MunchKING]

I’m not even sure how Hel could be the child of Loki, everyone was created at the same time.

Is there any in comic evidence they were all created at the same time? I didn't think we saw any of the original bunches' lives. For all we know they were chilling out for aeons together before they decided to try that whole "making a reality" thing and got into their snarl-fight. Also we do know that Apotheosis is a thing in this universe so the idea that she could be born later and raised up to a Goddess isn't inherently contradictory to the lore.

[mjasghar]

If gods could change quiddities, there'd be some with of that. The fact that you don't have any strangely out-of-pantheon gods (like a western zodiac animal having the yellow aura of the norse northeners) strongly implies that you're stuck with the quiddity you were born with.

And while in theory nothing would stop a blue western god from hanging out with the yellow northeners, gods squabble. So long as it's just intra-pantheon squabbling, any resulting snarl-like manifestations are single color and easily dealt with. Inter-pantheon dealings are formal and removed because the risks are so high. If someone with a different color starts hanging out like they were family, they'll most likely start squabbling like family but the risks will be much worse.

Southern pantheon is Blue and zodiac
Western is Red and sort of Babylonian

[HouseRules]

A snarl could kill less color than it.

If two pantheon argue, a two color snarl could kill a one color god, so they have to join together to push it back.
They need three colors to kill a two color snarl.

The current snarl is four colors, and one pantheon is dead, so they only have three colors.
They need four colors to push the snarl back, and five colors to kill it.
The Dark One is a fourth color.

And then Elan formed an opposition pantheon, though it is still a minor god Banjo the Puppet God and rival Giggles the Slapstick God.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Man, there’s not much sadder than someone wishing death on a parent. The Lokissons are a screwed-up family.

I think her appellation would be Lokisdottir, wouldn't it?

[The MunchKING]

Lokispawn?

[hroþila]

I find it interesting that Hel may be suggesting that the world being undone by the Snarl (rather than safely demolished by the gods) is historically the most frequent outcome by far, and this world's expected fate too.

I think her appellation would be Lokisdottir, wouldn't it?

Lokadóttir. Loki is a weak noun, so the genitive is Loka (see Lokasenna).

[jwhouk]

Loki now has a reason to fight to save this world. And Hel is definitely in no shape to help Curly right now.

[Cazero]

Lokadóttir. Loki is a weak noun, so the genitive is Loka (see Lokasenna).

One of the characters of an old videogames I liked is actualy called Lokasenna. Thanks for that.

[Jay R]

Man, there’s not much sadder than someone wishing death on a parent. The Lokissons are a screwed-up family. :smallsad:

As opposed to the happy, well-adjusted family you'd expect from being raised by, and swindled by, Loki.

Also, is this the first time a divine being has referred to the Snarl by name? I recall them all pointedly avoiding that during the godsmoot.

She is rejecting all of Loki's teachings, including, presumably, "Dude, don't taunt the god-killing abomination."

[Schroeswald]

Loki now has a reason to fight this one. And Hel is definitely in no shape to help Curly right now.

I think it’s possible that granting those spells to all those clerics at dusk drained her (along with the years worth of souls she just lost) to this point, she might be able to recover a little bit tomorrow with two low level clerics to give power to and gaining some souls.

[weasel_airlift]

I wonder the same thing since Thor explained that.

Loki really did something wicked to his own blood with this wager.

:)

Be that as may, but who enters into a bet with the TRICKSTER god and expects to come out on top?

[Guus]

I have to wonder though, would a vendetta of that scale between two gods of the same pantheon risk creating a mini-snarl? Or is that only when gods of different pantheons clash?

I'm guessing it probably could, but it would only be of one 'color'. Thus allowing the gods to smite it easily.

[Gift Jeraff]

That might count as living clerics which would break the Bet

The majority of worshippers aren't clerics. As long as Hel doesn't actually give spells herself I'd imagine she'd be good. Though I can never see her agreeing to essentially playing second fiddle to Thrym.

[Cazero]

Be that as may, but who enters into a bet with the TRICKSTER god and expects to come out on top?

The direct relative of said trickster god who was led to believe the trick was being played on the other party of the bet who was drunk at the time.

[mjasghar]

The majority of worshippers aren't clerics.

The post I was referring to had her being partnered with Thrymm
If his priests incorporated her she would effectively have them as her priests which isn’t allowed
In addition Thrymm is a Demi god so I’m not sure how much that would help

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The direct relative of said trickster god who was led to believe the trick was being played on the other party of the bet who was drunk at the time.

The first step in many cons is to make the mark think he is conning the conman, indeed.

Grey Wolf

[Mith]

I'm in favour of TDO coming in and proposing a deal to Hel for her to stay alive.

My thought is that if Hel fades, that the result is immediate oblivion to honourless dwarves. Perhaps if she switches to TDO as part of an alliance (see actual Norse myths for this), you see Hel rising back to prominence with goblinkind, while if the bet is part of The Rules, the default state of the dwarves upon death is Oblivion.

[Shoelessgdowar]

I suggested they could reach an agreement where the vampires are allowed to staff Hel temples (with some kind of arrangement that stops the vampires from murdering the population, etc) so that she can have some proper worship in this world.

ETA:

Not quite, as I understand it. She'd be allowed to have worshipers as long as they aren't priests, but it's impossible to get worshipers without priests to guide them, I'm guessing.

Grey Wolf

No living dwarf would worship her, simply because her way is counter intuitive. To end up in her realm, they must avoid conflict at all cost, which by default means never leveling. Conflict risks dying in combat, ergo an honorable death and a ticket to Valhalla.

Technically she could have non-Dwarven Worshipers, but who dedicates themselves to an afterlife of known torment and misery?

[Rogan]

A snarl could kill less color than it.

If two pantheon argue, a two color snarl could kill a one color god, so they have to join together to push it back.
They need three colors to kill a two color snarl.

The current snarl is four colors, and one pantheon is dead, so they only have three colors.
They need four colors to push the snarl back, and five colors to kill it.
The Dark One is a fourth color.

And then Elan formed an opposition pantheon, though it is still a minor god Banjo the Puppet God and rival Giggles the Slapstick God.

You got some source for this? As far as I know, the gods can destroy a single color creation just fine. So I suppose, four colours would be sufficient to get rid of the snarl.

The post I was referring to had her being partnered with Thrymm
If his priests incorporated her she would effectively have them as her priests which isn’t allowed
In addition Thrymm is a Demi god so I’m not sure how much that would help

However, no prosecutor, no judge.
So Thor might decide there is no reason to complain about those priests in order to allow Hel a better diet.

[MReav]

What Hel needs to do is introduce the Necropolitan template.

Or heck, some 4e Revenants. Maybe even use the dwarves she has in her custody. "Here's the deal you filthy, stinky dwarves. Go forth and spread my word and if you do a good job, then when you get back here I'll upgade your accommodations."

[2D8HP]

Not really?
He's a classic Nice Guy* and should've quit several pages ago (possibly after some Real Talk with Thor), but persists because he's Nice*and surely she'll see that one day**!
*who expects shows of false sympathy and fawning to win over the girl because that's what every rom-com and love song tells him will work
As for Hels little rant, it's very much in the 'I hate you forever!' category of teenage arguments, and Lokis probably a little stunned that she blames him, but also how impotent her threats are seeing as she might not survive to the next world (she's getting worn out from being angry now, never mind about after a fewer centuries without worship)
**because putting someone else in charge of your own happiness is healthy. Unfortunately I can't mark that sentence as both white and blue. But consider it an Azorius statement

"Nice guy" behavior (as you describe it) totally works though (if it's real sympathy instead of fake at least), "friends first" led to my being with the women who is now my wife since '92, previous "relationships" based on initial mutual attraction only lasted a few nights.

Though I think this Thrym guy be better off pursuing someone less angry, we desire what we desire, and it's understandable as she is hella foxy!

[Anansiil]

Well deserved anger. Just because you "love me" doesn't mean I can't despise you for screwing me over...

[Ruck]

"Nice guy" behavior (as you describe it) totally works though (if it's real sympathy instead of fake at least), "friends first" led to my being with the women who is now my wife since '92, previous "relationships" based on initial mutual attraction only lasted a few nights.

Though I think this Thrym guy be better off pursuing someone less angry, we desire what we desire, and it's understandable as she is hella foxy!

"Nice guy" behavior isn't about being a friend. It's about pretending to be a friend and fawning over a woman you're only interested in sexually in hopes that you will be rewarded with sex.

(I imagine any woman could tell you how quickly the "Nice Guy" facade drops when they tell their "Nice Guy" that they're only interested in being friends.)

[Frozenstep]

Man, seeing Loki with the face is quite something. The details on Hel's dialogue bubble in page 4 really helped the panel and moment stand out.

Hel should really take some advice and pull the plug. Get her remaining clerics to safety, then have them start a cult.

[Marcotix]

Yeah wow, seems like none of the gods really though this through. The big missing piece of the puzzle, as I see it, is what Loki is getting / planned to get out of it.

The best motive I've seen so far is "Teaching Hel a Lesson" combined with general incompetence/ unconcern.

Loki hasn't been shown to be this incompetent, and he clearly cares about Hel, so what is he getting here?

Anyway, I wonder if a certain Epic Lich sorceror can/would sweep Hel and take her godhood?

[JumboWheat01]

Giving diseases to people is always a good way to calm the nerves.

[Dion]

The best motive I've seen so far is "Teaching Hel a Lesson"

I honestly think he’s uninterested in teaching anything to anyone. He’s a trickster god who likes to cause trouble. I don’t think there needs to more to it than that.

Or maybe it’s part of a bigger scam. The Loki of American Gods certainly knew how to play the long con. Maybe this Loki does too.

[antipodeF]

I never stopped to consider that Hel is basically a victim in all of this. She's over there dying from lack of Worship in a world that will only make her weaker and weaker. Of COURSE she wants to see it end! It's the only way she'll ever be healthy again!

I hope there's something they can do for her... Maybe agree to see the wager end early? If all parties agree, then I can't see why they couldn't do that. Unless they signed a Signamancy contract with a "no backsies" clause. (Yes, wrong comic, I know. : P )

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No living dwarf would worship her, simply because her way is counter intuitive. To end up in her realm, they must avoid conflict at all cost, which by default means never leveling. Conflict risks dying in combat, ergo an honorable death and a ticket to Valhalla.

No, the agreement that allows her to have temples and priests of her own, protected from adventurers randomly killing them due to them being undead would obviously be contingent on her never claiming a single other soul for dishonorable death. Give all of them a free pass to go to where they should.

Technically she could have non-Dwarven Worshipers, but who dedicates themselves to an afterlife of known torment and misery?

Same kind of person that worships any other evil deity. Presumably there are perks in life to be a Loki worshiper. And of course, Hel used to get worship from individuals that primarily worshiped other gods, but thanked her for not dying every time they could've and didn't. It was such a sweet gig that it made her think that she didn't need priests at all, ignoring that everyone knew to thank her only because of her priests' work, one gathers.

I never stopped to consider that Hel is basically a victim in all of this. She's over there dying from lack of Worship in a world that will only make her weaker and weaker. Of COURSE she wants to see it end! It's the only way she'll ever be healthy again!

I hope there's something they can do for her... Maybe agree to see the wager end early? If all parties agree, then I can't see why they couldn't do that. Unless they signed a Signamancy contract with a "no backsies" clause. (Yes, wrong comic, I know. : P )

The fairly solid assumption here, based on how Hel describes the bet, is that the mechanics of it are backed into the current world. That dwarf non-honorable-death souls do go to her realm first, and that somehow, living beings can't become her priests (not sure what'd happen if one tried). Thus my suggestion she agrees to never dispute any souls, no matter how obvious (which she can do, as we just saw three strips ago), in exchange for legal protection for her undead priests.

It's not quite ending the wager, but it does render it kinda moot.

Grey Wolf