The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Odin was similarly malnourished by faulty belief system and made it through fine. Plus, nobody has mentioned that they think she won't survive, and I don't believe that she wouldn't unless someone mentions it in-comic.
    I would have 100% agreed with you before the fade. But since we've seen it, I can't think what it would mean other than that Hel isn't as well as she would like to be. I don't think she'll die within the timespan of the comic, but I wonder what you think the fade means if not that she's having a rough time of things.

    I also believe the bet is firmly baked into the rules of the world and can't or won't be changed. Nobody has mentioned that the bet could be able to end while the world still turns.
    Hel firmly believed that she'd win, and before Durkon died at a fortuitous time probably didn't let anyone see how bad things were due to her pride. It wouldn't be in her character to forfeit unless the situation were truly dire, and I don't think she sees it as that bad yet.

    If Hel has been keeping up appearances pretty well, Thor and Loki wouldn't have any reason to believe that she was really in trouble. Her diet might be doing a number on her, but gods have bounced back from screwy diets before.

    And from an outside perspective, we have three options for how things stand at the end of the story. Hel is dead (in a pretty fast timeframe, and with Thor being instrumental to that as the other side of the bet). Hel is alive, and dwarves are still stuck with the unfair honor rule. Or the bet is somehow called off. When all is said and done, two of those don't seem like the sorts of notes that Rich would want to end on.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    I would have 100% agreed with you before the fade. But since we've seen it, I can't think what it would mean other than that Hel isn't as well as she would like to be. I don't think she'll die within the timespan of the comic, but I wonder what you think the fade means if not that she's having a rough time of things.
    I absolutely think she's having a right time of things. I just don't think it's lethal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Hel firmly believed that she'd win, and before Durkon died at a fortuitous time probably didn't let anyone see how bad things were due to her pride. It wouldn't be in her character to forfeit unless the situation were truly dire, and I don't think she sees it as that bad yet.
    We see how bad it is just now, but she's seen how bad it was every second of every day so far. Besides which...
    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    If Hel has been keeping up appearances pretty well
    Then she would absolutely know how bad it was, to have to actively disguise it. And it's not like Thor wouldn't reverse that bet in a heartbeat if he was offered and could, I also believe. As soon as he told the dwarves she should have called it off. She's been wasting away for at least a millennium and isn't a long-term planner. She surely would have tried to call it off before now if she could
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    The only options I can see for Hel are to call the bet off or die, thus freeing the dwarves from the bet. The world certainly isn't ending any time soon, and the Giant is on record saying that the bet is unfair to the dwarves and he's spent a lot of this book detailing how it's unfair to Thor and Hel too and just now showed Loki of all people looking distressed about what it's doing to Hel.

    The bet cannot stand, one way or another. If the bet really truly can't be called off then my money is on Hel fading into nonexistence by the end of book 7. I just can't see Rich ending the comic with "oh yeah and the dwarves still get sent to Hel and suffer for all eternity if they choke on a chicken bone or get caught in a gas leak in the mines."

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    The only options I can see for Hel are to call the bet off or die, thus freeing the dwarves from the bet. The world certainly isn't ending any time soon, and the Giant is on record saying that the bet is unfair to the dwarves and he's spent a lot of this book detailing how it's unfair to Thor and Hel too and just now showed Loki of all people looking distressed about what it's doing to Hel.
    Familicide was unfair to the dragons, but I don't see that being reversed anytime soon.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Familicide was unfair to the dragons, but I don't see that being reversed anytime soon.
    But that is unfair to the dragons it killed, not every dragon that has ever and will ever exist from now until the end of time (and it wasn’t technically unfair to V, whose name we know).

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    But that is unfair to the dragons it killed, not every dragon that has ever and will ever exist from now until the end of time (and it wasn’t technically unfair to V, whose name we know).
    ...and?

    The dwarves built their entire culture around the bet. They are happy when a dwarf gets killed in a fight. It's weird, and it sucks for them, but I don't see them changing at any point. I'm calling that the bet won't be ended (well, really, can't be ended) without the world ending, and that Hel will not die.

    The fact that I've been wrong about literally every prediction I've ever made about the comic except one doesn't matter.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Familicide was unfair to the dragons, but I don't see that being reversed anytime soon.
    Familicide is also not getting cast every day from now until the end of time and the person who cast familicide has already resigned themselves to a life of atonement.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Familicide is also not getting cast every day from now until the end of time
    I'm sure that a quarter of the black dragon population are comforted by that.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'm sure that a quarter of the black dragon population are comforted by that.
    The point was that whatever justice there is to be had has already been had, and the crime was finite. When it comes to the bet, it's still ongoing and no justice is forthcoming. I'm ready to accept it if the giant does indeed end the comic that way, but it would strike me as supremely odd to have one bit of divine injustice against mortals (goblins as exp fodder) be the cause of and addressed by the plot while just skating right over another example of the same.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    The point was that whatever justice there is to be had has already been had, and the crime was finite. When it comes to the bet, it's still ongoing and no justice is forthcoming. I'm ready to accept it if the giant does indeed end the comic that way, but it would strike me as supremely odd to have one bit of divine injustice against mortals (goblins as exp fodder) be the cause of and addressed by the plot while just skating right over another example of the same.
    The world isn't just. I don't expect a happy ending for everyone. Heck, that may be what the Oracle meant by "for you, at least;" if anyone would object to a happy ending if the Dwarven deal isn't changed, well, the Oracle called it.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The world isn't just. I don't expect a happy ending for everyone. Heck, that may be what the Oracle meant by "for you, at least;" if anyone would object to a happy ending if the Dwarven deal isn't changed, well, the Oracle called it.
    Yes, exactly. I mean, let's say the Dark One agrees to help fix the Gates. Do you think all the other races will suddenly be cool with goblins? Nah, they'll still be very hostile and treat them as an enemy at pretty much all times. For that matter, the goblins themselves won't suddenly stop murdering and enslaving humans and elves at the drop of a hat either.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Yes, exactly. I mean, let's say the Dark One agrees to help fix the Gates. Do you think all the other races will suddenly be cool with goblins?..
    And that is why the Dark One will not help fix the gates. Why help them become 4 colors to match Snarl when he can instead help Snarl become 5 colors to 3? Basic capitalism, work for the side that pays and treats you the best.

    Lets face it, it is final curtain call... Snarl has grown too strong, his new world is in place, if the "gods" try to unravel theirs, everyone will just fall into Snarl's better world below. If they wait, then the rifts will keep growing bigger and more will join the Holey Brotherhood of Love.

    Hel could also join the Holey Brotherhood and survive, but otherwise she will perish.
    Last edited by multilis; 2019-08-21 at 10:15 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by multilis View Post
    And that is why the Dark One will not help fix the gates. Why help them become 4 colors to match Snarl when he can instead help Snarl become 5 colors to 3? Basic capitalism, work for the side that pays and treats you the best.
    The Snarl stiffs you, though.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Would she be alive again? Or would this be a new death god(dess) named Hel? (Same ship with a different captain?)
    It could be a Sandman sort of thing, where you have Morpheus and Daniel. Both are Dream of the Endless, but they’re not quite the same person.


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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    I think part of the point of this is to show that she wouldn't. The fact that she just gave up a lot of her freshest souls probably hurts as well. She put everything she had into this scheme and it didn't work.

    That said, given how narrative arcs like this work, it's extremely unlikely that the world is going to be destroyed, so we will likely never get a definitive answer.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    What puzzles me somewhat is that the Gods existed before the first world did, when there were no mortals around to feed them souls--so what did they survive on up until that point?
    My guess is that they drew energy directly from the cosmic strings. They can't do that now because those strings are either bound up in a world, or else connected at the other end to the rampaging Snarl.
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The Snarl stiffs you, though.
    Yeah, it's less like doublecrossing the side that wins if you are on it for triple the pay and more like dooming everyone, everywhere, and then being killed by the Snarl.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    What puzzles me somewhat is that the Gods existed before the first world did, when there were no mortals around to feed them souls--so what did they survive on up until that point?
    In the Beggining, there was only the Demiurge
    The Demiurge was bored, so he began to think
    Those thoughts created the Outer Planes
    And the Demiurge saw that it was good
    though also evil and neutral.

    Then, the Demiurge dreamt the Gods
    And the Demiurge saw that them were good
    but also evil and neutral
    and the not good ones wanted to rule
    they slayed the Demiurge

    Alas, the Gods began to fade
    as their essences were fueled
    only by the thougths of the Demiurge
    So the Gods created the Mortals
    to have someone dream about them

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Alas, the Gods began to fade
    as their essences were fueled
    only by the thougths of the Demiurge
    So the Gods created the Mortals
    to have someone dream about them
    Dream a little dream with me.

    With strip # 1177, we now see confirmed that Hel may not make it.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-08-26 at 10:49 AM.
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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    I think I'm allowed a small booyakasha
    I wish I'd made my post on #1144 for a longer shot ^^

    Anyway, glad to have the answer (even if it won't happen). Still remains the question of how Hel can continue on this world.

    Also glad to know why Loki teach his followers to destroy undeads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Hard to do. Turns out that, even if he didn't believe in Death, Death did believe in him.



    Called Hel. So she'd be alive. Again. At which point you'll say something about change, and I'll point to Theseus' Ship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Would she be alive again? Or would this be a new death god(dess) named Hel? (Same ship with a different captain?)
    I wasn't familiar with the name "Theseus' Ship" even if I was familiar with the concept (actually from a Scrooge McDuck story where he speaks about his favorite golf club). I'm happy to know it now.

    Anyway, I think that if Hel dies between world and Northerners happen to make a new God or Godess of Death ascend, this wouldn't be Hel at all.

    Aaaaand, Hel being the Godess of Hel seems to be something she has only been doing since a few worlds. But we didn't knew that.
    Last edited by Quild; 2019-08-26 at 01:12 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quild View Post
    I
    Aaaaand, Hel being the Godess of Hel seems to be something she has only been doing since a few worlds. But we didn't knew that.
    What makes you say that?
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The world isn't just. I don't expect a happy ending for everyone. Heck, that may be what the Oracle meant by "for you, at least;" if anyone would object to a happy ending if the Dwarven deal isn't changed, well, the Oracle called it.
    I feel like there's a difference between "a happy ending for everyone" and "not addressing the very obvious things I set up to be addressed". Because maybe it's just me, but Mr. Burlew doesn't strike me as the type to go into so much depth with the Bet and how terrible is, and not address it.

    Forget how that wouldn't be satisfying for large portions of the audience, he doesn't strike me as the type who'd be satisfied with it himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quild View Post
    I think I'm allowed a small booyakasha
    I wish I'd made my post on #1144 for a longer shot ^^

    Anyway, glad to have the answer (even if it won't happen). Still remains the question of how Hel can continue on this world.
    You don't have the answer. Loki being worried that she might not survive isn't a guarantee that she wouldn't. All this did was confirm there's a possibility. There was no definitive "yes, she will" or "no, she won't" said in this latest strip.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-08-26 at 03:13 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    I feel like there's a difference between "a happy ending for everyone" and "not addressing the very obvious things I set up to be addressed". Because maybe it's just me, but Mr. Burlew doesn't strike me as the type to go into so much depth with the Bet and how terrible is, and not address it.

    Forget how that wouldn't be satisfying for large portions of the audience, he doesn't strike me as the type who'd be satisfied with it himself.
    "The world is not fair, this isn't that kind of escapist fantasy, and the dwarves have learnt to cope with it to the point where Hel is half-starved due to getting so few of their souls" is already addressing it.

    While it'd love to see the bet finished, dissolved or ameliorated, I do not think it is a requirement or even something to be 100% expected from this story.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-08-26 at 03:28 PM.
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    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    I feel like there's a difference between "a happy ending for everyone" and "not addressing the very obvious things I set up to be addressed". Because maybe it's just me, but Mr. Burlew doesn't strike me as the type to go into so much depth with the Bet and how terrible is, and not address it.
    He did address it; the Bet means it sucks to be a dwarf, so they created an entire culture based on the one way to get out of being caught up in the Bet. Bam, addressed.
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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    He did address it; the Bet means it sucks to be a dwarf, so they created an entire culture based on the one way to get out of being caught up in the Bet. Bam, addressed.
    That, much like the whole "spot-welding rifts" plan is but a band-aid, and doesn't strike me as particularly satisfying for the story to just end on that. Which is one of several reasons I'm sure that Thor's plan isn't going to be the actual solution.

    Like, I'm not saying there's going to be world-peace or all prejudice eliminated by the time the story is ended. Just going that this very much strikes me as the type of story where things like "goblinoids get better lot in life" and "dwarves get out from under the bet" happens. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they'll have to deal with, but no story can show every detail like that anyway.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-08-26 at 03:45 PM.
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    I feel like there's a difference between "a happy ending for everyone" and "not addressing the very obvious things I set up to be addressed". Because maybe it's just me, but Mr. Burlew doesn't strike me as the type to go into so much depth with the Bet and how terrible is, and not address it.
    Hm....Does Durkon know about the bet? I mean, he certainly knows about Hel getting the souls of dishonored dwarves...but does he know there's a bet behind it? One Thor is in on?

    If not, what happens if he finds out that Thor's tasked him with (alongside saving the world) perpetuating this state of affairs? What if it isn't Thor who reveals it to him?
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2019-08-26 at 03:50 PM.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Hm....Does Durkon know about the bet? I mean, he certainly knows about Hel getting the souls of dishonored dwarves...but does he know there's a bet behind it? One Thor is in on?

    If not, what happens if he finds out that Thor's tasked him with (alongside saving the world) perpetuating this state of affairs? What if it isn't Thor who reveals it to him?
    Very interesting questions. I expect/hope they'll come up at some point in the future. Just like how the Order still doesn't know about the Goblins lot in life or why they are the way they are, and I expect they'll have to be informed of that eventually, as well.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    That, much like the whole "spot-welding rifts" plan is but a band-aid, and doesn't strike me as particularly satisfying for the story to just end on that. Which is one of several reasons I'm sure that Thor's plan isn't going to be the actual solution.

    Like, I'm not saying there's going to be world-peace or all prejudice eliminated by the time the story is ended. Just going that this very much strikes me as the type of story where things like "goblinoids get better lot in life" and "dwarves get out from under the bet" happens. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they'll have to deal with, but no story can show every detail like that anyway.
    The entire Dwarven culture is built around the bet. Do you think the author'll invalidate an entire culture just so one of the many various wronged groups in the comic will get the warm fuzzies (and ignoring other wronged groups like, for example, the black dragons who got genocided because an elf had an ego problem)?
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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The entire Dwarven culture is built around the bet. Do you think the author'll invalidate an entire culture just so one of the many various wronged groups in the comic will get the warm fuzzies (and ignoring other wronged groups like, for example, the black dragons who got genocided because an elf had an ego problem)?
    Well, I don't think that would invalidate their entire culture, and also consider that some incredibly loaded and skewed wording on your part, so I think it's a moot question. Which, if I'm also being honest, isn't something I'd normally expect of you.

    You are misinterpreting what I am saying - it is not "everything has to end all warm and fuzzy" it is "it would feel off for the series to devote so much time to these things, and then not actually address them in a meaningful sense." Going "hey, dwarves that have lived good and morally their entire lives, but died of a disease won't be out of luck anymore" wouldn't somehow invalidate a culture that lead to them living that way.

    A better comparison with the dragon example would be if I was arguing that all the souls that Hel already has would retroactively be freed from her grasp, which is not a position I am taking, or have taken.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-08-26 at 04:31 PM.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: Would Hel survive if the Snarl destroys the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Well, I don't think that would invalidate their entire culture, and also consider that some incredibly loaded and skewed wording on your part, so I think it's a moot question. Which, if I'm also being honest, isn't something I'd normally expect of you.

    You are misinterpreting what I am saying - it is not "everything has to end all warm and fuzzy" it is "it would feel off for the series to devote so much time to these things, and then not actually address them in a meaningful sense." Going "hey, dwarves that have lived good and morally their entire lives, but died of a disease won't be out of luck anymore" wouldn't somehow invalidate a culture that lead to them living that way.

    A better comparison with the dragon example would be if I was arguing that all the souls that Hel already has would retroactively be freed from her grasp, which is not a position I am taking, or have taken.
    I didn't intend it to be loaded, but my bias may have blinded me there. Definitely not skewed wording, though; I only use genocide there because the Giant has referred to it as genocide (typically when saying things like "Geez guys yes that was evil, it was genocide").

    The world has evil gods which live alongside with good and neutral gods. Good is not the dominant force in the universe. I dont see any more reason for the bet to change than I see reason for the good gods to overpower the evil gods and become the dominant force. It would be a net posotive, it would lead to a better and happier universe, it would alleviate a lot of suffering and damnation for those who suffer and are damned unfairly, but it won't happen. Greysky city won't stop ripping everyone off, the Western Continent won't stop being a war-torn land where the innocent suffer under the heels of ever-changing boots, and I don't think the dwarves will get out if the Bet just because we saw the inner workings a little bit more than the Westerners or Greysky civilians'.

    Of course, to be fair, my track record is 1 to infinity, do the odds are on your side here.
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