The Matrix 4 announced: Lana Wachowski, Keanu Reeves, and Carrie-Anne Moss are back

[Millstone85]

That does mean, though, we have to take "the machines are totally using the humans as batteries!" at face value--which is cobblers.

But it does not.

Humans-as-batteries could be another lie of the machines, with humans-as-processors being the truth.

Or, the whole story might have started with what TvTropes calls a zeroth-law rebellion. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm, except when individual harm is necessary for the preservation of humans as a species.

None of that requires the dark sentinel world to be another simulation.

The biggest joke would be if the nanite cloud was actually deployed by the machines as a world-wide solar panel.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Then add a Philip K. **** twist.

Another example of why the auto-censorship on this website is silly.

[Deja Who?]

I think the main thing is that the robots didn’t want to completely exterminate humanity out of a soft spot so they put them in a virtual reality. And then figured once they were in there to do something with them hence the batteries even if they aren’t very good for it.

[Traab]

I think the main thing is that the robots didn’t want to completely exterminate humanity out of a soft spot so they put them in a virtual reality. And then figured once they were in there to do something with them hence the batteries even if they aren’t very good for it.

It would be interesting to find out the battery thing is a lie. They dont want to admit they dont want to kill humanity so they made up an excuse to keep people alive. "Oh yeah, we totally need to use you guys for fuel." In reality, it costs more power than it produces, they just refuse to admit that vulnerability. On that note, am I the only one being annoyed by matrix articles where they basically post the last 5 minutes of the trilogy and act like they are revealing some grand secret of how a sequel could happen? "Omg, the oracle even says he will be back! What SUBTLE FORESHADOWING! Thanks for pointing it out to me you guys!" Its on par with an article on how this subtly infers that freddy might come back in another movie! I NEVER WOULD HAVE GUESSED!

[napoleon_in_rag]

I look at this the same way I look at a new Aliens, Predator, Terminator, or James Bond flick. I will wait until it comes out on Netflix to watch it unless the reviews are really good. At least one of the Wachowski's are still involved though which makes me hopeful.

[Rodin]

I find it weird how people obsess over the "humans as batteries" thing. Yeah, it's dumb. But so is 99% of the so-called science in Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who, Stargate, the MCU, and [Insert Sci-Fi Sacred Cow Here].

Would it have been better if they'd said people are being used as a neural net or as processors or [insert technobabble here]? Sure.

Does it MATTER to the plot in any meaningful way? No. No, it does not.

The machines are keeping people in the Matrix as a form of control, and for whatever reason they're unwilling to just kill them outright. That's the full explanation required for the story. Maybe humans stored in a tank for 30 years wind up tasting like delicious chocolate cake. It literally doesn't matter.

So why are we still kvetching about it 25 years later? Especially since there's so much other trash science in the sequels to poke fun at.

--

As to the sequel itself, this is a case where I'd actually be happier if they were doing a remake. The original trilogy is done, there's nothing left to explore in that universe, and I don't particularly need to see the original cast reprising their roles. Doing a remake of the trilogy where they explicitly intend to do a reimagining of the whole thing is an intriguing idea. The first movie doesn't need to be re-made, but would be cool to see with updated CGI. However, making it with the full intention of integrating the sequels would lead to a better consistency of themes and allow them to fix a lot of the stupid stuff that went on in the sequels. Remove a bunch of the padding, make the plot make more sense, fix stuff like the human batteries, get rid of those stupid mechs that put the squishy human component on the outside...

There's a lot that you could do. I can see wanting to fix the trilogy. I don't see why you'd want to screw up the ending of the trilogy (which despite the horribleness of the rest of Revelations is pretty good) just for the sake of getting Keanu Reeves to put on the sunglasses one more time.

[Traab]

Because its one of the primary pillars of the story and unlike trek technobabble which uses things that dont exist to justify its abilities, the matrix used something that even the most basic level of science expert could go "Umm, that doesnt work, like... at all." They might as well have done something like say, "Oh yeah everyone can fly. They do it by jumping in the air, then they just keep jumping to stay aloft! Its simple physics really." Unless you are filming a shonen anime, people are going to point out why thats stupid and doesnt work.

[deuterio12]

It would be interesting to find out the battery thing is a lie. They dont want to admit they dont want to kill humanity so they made up an excuse to keep people alive. "Oh yeah, we totally need to use you guys for fuel." In reality, it costs more power than it produces, they just refuse to admit that vulnerability.

I quite like that one.

In particular since they're literally machines so they could've been programmed to believe that evidence be danmed.

Although an interesting alternative is that humans were genetically modified to be efficient batteries and whatnot in the future. Which would also explain how Neo can move after spending all his life dreaming in a pod when by all means his real muscles should be fully atrophiated and he would be unable to even stand on his own or do much else besides swallow food that somebody else would need to put directly in his mouth because he would have zero experience using his actual limbs.

[Reddish Mage]

The problem with human batteries being inefficient batteries brought up is a fundamental theoretical problem: It costs a lot of energy to grow and maintain a human being. Not to mention the that...humans are just not good batteries. Moreover, machines could run through many, many, methods that don’t require the upkeep of a human. Why can’t the machines use whatever that energy is and skip the man in the middle (pun intended)?

Moreover, it doesn’t ring true that you need the something as complicated as the Matrix, connecting every single human, when all the machine needs are batteries. Why can’t they use animals? All the animals died? Why can’t they maintain humans in a sleepless or vegetative state (I know there’s an explanation in universe for all this, it stinks).

The processor thing has its own problems. It plays to the myth that people don’t use more than a tiny fraction of the brain to function. Humans wouldn’t make efficient processors either, although brains are, at least, processors for humans.

However, it actually plays quite well to the very notion of the subconsciousness, especially with the idea that most of what is going on with the mind is beyond conscious understanding. Not to mention notions that the subconscious can trick and, in fact, battle with the conscious for control.

This already is basically the central theme of the Matrix. However, the Matrix itself and the machines have a certain separation from humans, in the real trilogy, as a structure fundamentally apart from humanity made to keep them under control. Humans are essentially cattle, and the Matrix is just a fence. The machine’s interest is simply keeping humans fenced in.

If humans were processors, the machines would then essentially be humans. The same brains literally do the thinking for both the humans and the machines. That brings up a whole dimension of psychological twists the series could have done.

I think we would be agreed that the Architect’s rollout was anti-climatic, that the primary conflict being with Mr. Smith didn’t play well, and the fact that the machine’s themselves, and their agenda, basically wasn’t all that interesting in the end.

All that could have been done better and maybe it would have been had they stuck with the original notion of humans as processors rather than as batteries.

[factotum]

I think we would be agreed that the Architect’s rollout was anti-climatic

The Architect himself was a great idea. That load of half-baked philosophical cobblers he came out with when we actually met him? Not so much.

[deuterio12]

The problem with human batteries being inefficient batteries brought up is a fundamental theoretical problem: It costs a lot of energy to grow and maintain a human being. Not to mention the that...humans are just not good batteries. Moreover, machines could run through many, many, methods that don’t require the upkeep of a human. Why can’t the machines use whatever that energy is and skip the man in the middle (pun intended)?

Moreover, it doesn’t ring true that you need the something as complicated as the Matrix, connecting every single human, when all the machine needs are batteries. Why can’t they use animals? All the animals died?

By the time the machines went for "human batteries" plan, then sulight was already blocked meaning all plant life was screwed meaning all non-human animals were also screwed so yes.

Even the population of Zion's down to eating protein soup probably grown from bacteria or chemical lab, no pork, beef or chicken for anybody.

So basically humies may be far from perfect as an energy source, but beggars can't be choosers.

Basically the equivalent of burning books for warming up.

The machines do mention having other energy sources available in the last movie, the humie batteries were just extra on top.

[Eldan]

But it's a basic fact of thermodynamics that you can't get more energy out than you put in. You put energy into a human in the form of food. Some gets used up to keep the human alive, the rest is put out as heat. You'd get more heat by just burning the food in a furnace and using that to drive a steam turbine, since the turbine does not have to be kept alive and do all sorts of complicated chemical processes.

[deuterio12]

But it's a basic fact of thermodynamics that you can't get more energy out than you put in. You put energy into a human in the form of food. Some gets used up to keep the human alive, the rest is put out as heat. You'd get more heat by just burning the food in a furnace and using that to drive a steam turbine, since the turbine does not have to be kept alive and do all sorts of complicated chemical processes.

Yeah, burn the objects that are 50-75% water, see how efficient that is.

Do you also eat raw meat and raw grain instead of cooking them?

We already do all sorts of complicated chemical proccesses to turn wood to charcoal, raw oil to gasoline, grain to bread, beef to hamburguer. Just because you have a raw resource doesn't mean the best way to use it is burning it up directly, no, often it pays off to spend extra energy in between to turn it into something that's more efficient to proccess.

Doubly if you want it to last a long time. Storing energy is a science in itself. Throwing all the humies into a furnace may provide a big moment of energy (or not, again that's a lot of water to go through), but that's pretty pointless if you don't have a way to store all that energy in an efficient manner (which thermodynamics pretty much also screws you over as basically all systems decay), while the Matrix allows you to extract energy from humies at a controlled pace over a long period.

[Eldan]

I didn't say burn the humans.

My point is that you need energy to grow food to feed the humans. More energy than the humans would give you. So if you didn't grow that food in the first place and didn't have humans to feed, you'd save vastly more energy.

[-D-]

The problem with human batteries being inefficient batteries brought up is a fundamental theoretical problem: It costs a lot of energy to grow and maintain a human being. Not to mention the that...humans are just not good batteries. Moreover, machines could run through many, many, methods that don’t require the upkeep of a human. Why can’t the machines use whatever that energy is and skip the man in the middle (pun intended)?

Moreover, it doesn’t ring true that you need the something as complicated as the Matrix, connecting every single human, when all the machine needs are batteries. Why can’t they use animals? All the animals died? Why can’t they maintain humans in a sleepless or vegetative state (I know there’s an explanation in universe for all this, it stinks).

Wow, it's almost as the authors didn't do the research. Wow.

Although, they went with humans as batteries, because someone told them audience wouldn't get humans as processors.

The processor thing has its own problems. It plays to the myth that people don’t use more than a tiny fraction of the brain to function. Humans wouldn’t make efficient processors either, although brains are, at least, processors for humans.

Agreed. It's a slightly better shtick. I mean, what are they computing?

I mean, what could make sense, is that humans get to unwittingly pilot the drones and other similar tasks. E.g. you think you are flying a jet fighter plane attacking enemies, but instead you are piloting or helping pilot drones hunting Zion rebels.

If humans were processors, the machines would then essentially be humans. The same brains literally do the thinking for both the humans and the machines. That brings up a whole dimension of psychological twists the series could have done.

This I don't understand. We use CPUs for calculating weather patterns, does that mean we are machines?

---------------

I think the explanation that best works, is that on some level, machines didn't want to destroy their creators, so they needed a reason to still have them around, in a roundabout way.

[Eldan]

I mean, what could make sense, is that humans get to unwittingly pilot the drones and other similar tasks. E.g. you think you are flying a jet fighter plane attacking enemies, but instead you are piloting or helping pilot drones hunting Zion rebels.

Ooh, I'd love that. Kinda like those Sci Fi stories where people think they are playing a game, but it's not actually a game, only even more twisted. Or that Black Mirror episode where soldiers were made to see their enemies as monsters.

They did go a bit in that direction with the idea that every connected human you see can be turned into an agent by being overwritten. Only instead of the human personality being overwritten, it would be their perception. You could make some really surreal cyberpunk out of that.

[Millstone85]

If humans were processors, the machines would then essentially be humans. The same brains literally do the thinking for both the humans and the machines. That brings up a whole dimension of psychological twists the series could have done.

And the Matrix being a hive mind would have gone well with the theme of society versus the individual.

For example, being replaced by an agent would be more than having your avatar stolen from you. Instead, your mind would be made to conform to a social archetype.

[napoleon_in_rag]

I love the first Matrix but the "humans as an energy source" idea is pretty silly. This is Morpheus's quote from the first movie:

"The human body generates more bioelectricity than a 120-volt battery and over 25,000 BTUs of body heat. Combined with a form of fusion, the machines had found all the energy they would ever need. There are fields, Neo, endless fields, where human beings are no longer born. We are grown."

First, if you have fusion, you have all the electricity you will ever need. E=MC² beats any other source of power for energy output.

Second, if you are going to use a living creature as a power source, why would you use humans when you have established domesticated animals like cows? Cows are larger and should produce more energy per individual. Cows are fully grown in 1.5 to 2 years vs. 18 to 20 years for humans. Cows are easier to feed. Cows have been bred to be docile so you don't even need the Matrix.

Of course a Matrix for cows might be really cool!

[Psyren]

Something that takes chances, has subtext, and isn't following trends. A more objective, simple answer as well: something that doesn't require literal tons of plastic to spawn merchandise.

This is an odd line to draw; even something as commercial as Guardians of the Galaxy had subtext and took chances, and therefore had artistic merit. Sure it was following a trend, but that's no guarantee of commercial or critical success, just ask most of DC's catalog.

Moreover, once something is commercially viable, that actually frees you up to take more artistic risks, like Guardians 2 or Thor 3 did.

Anyway, if you're asking the last non-superhero movie I truly enjoyed and that I thought had artistic merit - there were several but one that leaps immediately to mind is Life of Pi.

That does mean, though, we have to take "the machines are totally using the humans as batteries!" at face value--which is cobblers. A human body is an incredibly inefficient way of turning nutrients into energy. If they really needed the sun for energy, it would have made far more sense to just build a tower above the cloud layer, which we know is not all that high up because they flew above it in the third movie.

Yeah, they really need to explain this in the 4th one. The processors one has lots of holes too but it's at least better.

[Millstone85]

Combined with a form of fusion, the machines had found all the energy they would ever need.

First, if you have fusion, you have all the electricity you will ever need. E=MC² beats any other source of power for energy output.

Huh, I always assumed that he meant fusion between human and machine. But I might be wrong.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Huh, I always assumed that he meant fusion between human and machine. But I might be wrong.

I generally assume fusion in a conversation about energy means nuclear fusion. But maybe he meant the machines were compressing several humans down into a walnut sized space to produce lots and lots of energy.

[Malphegor]

I’m now wondering about the music. See, every character had a leitmotif- Agent Smith had that ‘dun dun duuun’ bit, Neo had this tenative but increasingly bassy score, etc.

It’s been a LONG time. I hope they keep the musical theming, from what I remember for the most part the Matrix trilogy was pretty good at keeping each character’s tune to the scenes with that character. Not a lot of movies do that properly (Transformers, for example, has a theme for Optimus Prime, they establish it early, but they’ll use it on literally any character after the first one with no rhyme or reason)

[Leewei]

If the machines just need electricity, humans are horrible batteries.

If the machines need the variety, creativity, stimulation, and motivation provided by humans, I can see a better analogy. Invest these things into a human, then get them back over that human's lifetime.

[Psyren]

If the machines just need electricity, humans are horrible batteries.

If the machines need the variety, creativity, stimulation, and motivation provided by humans, I can see a better analogy. Invest these things into a human, then get them back over that human's lifetime.

While I agree, the problem is that I can't really see a scenario where machines need any of that. I mean, we have AI today that are composing original music, making original paintings and so on; the Matrix AI are even more advanced than that. And if I might be a bit cynical - even if "creativity" was somehow a resource machines needed, it's not the kind of thing you really get more of by farming the masses in pods. Most people aren't that creative, it's more likely that a creative spark will manifest in the minds of a small minority. And judging by the first Matrix, those rebels are the folks most likely to break out of your simulation anyway. In short, it's just as untenable an explanation as the battery one if not moreso.

I like the "zeroth law revolution" idea myself. The machines don't really need an underlying reason to waste resources and risk conflict by keeping us alive - it can simply be what they were programmed to do, or at least a perversion of their original programming. Or their motives can be wholly inscrutable and alien, much like the Architects in Prometheus. In other words, you don't actually need to explain it, it's just a plot device to explain why they don't flush us all and be done with it before we can do lasting damage.

Thinking past the setting though - one cool thing I liked was that fantastical creatures existed in the matrix like vampires and ghosts, and that those were programs that strayed from their function and chose to resist deletion. I'm hoping that aspect comes back, to give us a bit more enemy variety than agents and goons.

[Reddish Mage]

So basically humies may be far from perfect as an energy source, but beggars can't be choosers.

Basically the equivalent of burning books for warming up.

The machines do mention having other energy sources available in the last movie, the humie batteries were just extra on top.

As previously mentioned, the other source is fusion...which if successful would obviate the need.

It could be geothermal, or hydro-electric, or chemical. Again, if you could keep humans alive, you could keep animals alive that are easier to maintain. Also there is bacteria, fungus, and other stuff around.

the Matrix allows you to extract energy from humies at a controlled pace over a long period.

That’s the whole thing. The Matrix is a big, neural-link network, and VR machine. For humans to be satisfied it has to more-or-less operate at a resolution, speed, and reliability indistinguishable from reality. They need AI programs constantly monitoring the system because humans keep figuring it out anyway and coming unplugged. Also, it took multiple attempts to get the thing to work. Supposedly earlier incarnations were meant to appear as paradise...which resulted in the humans spontaneously dying.

So the matrix is actually a big drain on energy. The energy extraction mechanism isn’t specified or likely all that interesting. Likely not explored with more detail than human + goo = power.

Ooh, I'd love that. Kinda like those Sci Fi stories where people think they are playing a game, but it's not actually a game, only even more twisted. Or that Black Mirror episode where soldiers were made to see their enemies as monsters.

They did go a bit in that direction with the idea that every connected human you see can be turned into an agent by being overwritten. Only instead of the human personality being overwritten, it would be their perception. You could make some really surreal cyberpunk out of that.

The use of human as processors imply that the agents are literally an unconscious personality of each human.

This was likely the original concept. All the parallels between Neo and Agent Smith suggests that Agent Smith was originally Neo’s shadow personality.

...being replaced by an agent would be more than having your avatar stolen from you. Instead, your mind would be made to conform to a social archetype.

If the machines, or should we call it the hive mind, in this version could just make everyone agents on a permanent basis, that would eliminate the need for the surface personalities.

The machines are essentially a subconscious machine-minded human collective operating beneath conscious thought. The agents were simply a manifestation of the individual subconscious of a person, but could no more replace a person’s consciousness permanently than the Id could exist permanently without an Ego.

The result of going with the original idea is ultimately that the war becomes one between the humans...and themselves.

[Millstone85]

If the machines, or should we call it the hive mind, in this version could just make everyone agents on a permanent basis, that would eliminate the need for the surface personalities.

Which is exactly what happens once Smith goes viral.

Because of his connection to Neo, this could be presented as the ultimate purpose of the One, to bring the hive mind to full unity.

Much of the plot could revolve around how that is in fact a tricky process, with all previous Ones having failed to bring a satisfying result. And Smith's "the purpose of life is to end" would be regarded as another incoming failure.

[Eldan]

The use of human as processors imply that the agents are literally an unconscious personality of each human.

This was likely the original concept. All the parallels between Neo and Agent Smith suggests that Agent Smith was originally Neo’s shadow personality.

Oooh. I love that idea. So, let's spin that a bit further. All agents start the same, because they begin as a seed the machines put in the human mind. They are a broad psychological archetype of what humans collectively imagine an "agent of authority" to be. But as Neo begins to, maybe subconciously, realize that Smith is a part of him, the agent begins to develop more personality. And in the end, a bit like in the movie, they merge.

[-D-]

I like the "zeroth law revolution" idea myself. The machines don't really need an underlying reason to waste resources and risk conflict by keeping us alive - it can simply be what they were programmed to do, or at least a perversion of their original programming. Or their motives can be wholly inscrutable and alien, much like the Architects in Prometheus. In other words, you don't actually need to explain it, it's just a plot device to explain why they don't flush us all and be done with it before we can do lasting damage.

I'm honestly against "the zeroth law revolution" myself. Machines don't need a law to keep us alive, they just do it out of their own innate humanity. Not in a "corrupted code" kind of way, but in a simply better than the humans that created them.

[deuterio12]

I'm honestly against "the zeroth law revolution" myself. Machines don't need a law to keep us alive, they just do it out of their own innate humanity. Not in a "corrupted code" kind of way, but in a simply better than the humans that created them.

Nice, there's some hints of that in the first movie when the machines point out they tried to make the first Matrix a paradise but humies kept dying. If it was just cold logic/code error, there would be no reason for them to give a virtual paradise to the humies in their first attempt.

[Millstone85]

If it was just cold logic/code error, there would be no reason for them to give a virtual paradise to the humies in their first attempt.

Unless they were programmed to maximize human comfort.