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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Reddish Mage's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    And "Their criminal organisation is run in an extremely orderly fashion" is generally sufficient reason.
    True. Of course, a criminal organization better be run in an extremely orderly fashion for it to work IRL or things tend to go down in a very messy and bloody fashion, but a very chaotic one is just fine for D&D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    I'd argue Two-Face as Lawful Evil, the Lawful part of it being imposed by the double-headed coin: even if it's sometimes convenient when he flips it, in most of his incarnations he does follow the dictates of how the coin comes up - and in the Bale film series, he's explicit that the coin is the only way to deliver justice.
    Eh its probability, so randomness is right there, and its a personal rule of Two-Faced to follow it. Following a coin flip is the literal example of how a Chaotic Neutral person behaves.

    So, at best that thing could go either way. If you focus on how methodological the guy is that could be enough to make him Lawful...if instead you point out how arbitrary and sick the guy's choices are (he'll plan a whole murder, get to the point where the person is tied up, and then do the coin flip), he could be Chaotic Neutral or even Evil.

    In this case, I'd go with Chaotic because its like he's right there in the description.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Final Fantasy VII Characters:

    Cloud Strife (Chaotic Good)
    Sephiroth (Lawful Evil)

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Eh its probability, so randomness is right there, and its a personal rule of Two-Faced to follow it. Following a coin flip is the literal example of how a Chaotic Neutral person behaves.
    The thing is Two-Face makes up the consequences of the coin flip and so can manipulate proability to get what he wants.

    Two great examples: In Batman The Animated Series he ties Batman to the side of a giant penny and plan on using a machine to throw it in the air, telling Bats "Tail, you die. Heads, every bone in you body breaks."

    In The Dark Knight when his coin toss tells him not to kill Falcone he does a second toss for the guy who drives the car Falcone is in.

    It really isn't as random as he makes it to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Ok more DC characters:

    Wonder Woman (Neutral Good)
    Supergirl (Neutral Good)
    Batwoman (Chaotic Good)
    Black Canary (Chaotic Good)

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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The thing is Two-Face makes up the consequences of the coin flip and so can manipulate proability to get what he wants.

    It really isn't as random as he makes it to be.
    Does that sound like lawful behavior to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Now Bob's Burgers

    Bob Belcher (Neutral Good)
    Linda Belcher (Neutral Good)
    Tina Belcher (Lawful Good)
    Gene Belcher (Chaotic Good)
    Louise Belcher (Chaotic Good)

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Does that sound like lawful behavior to you?
    Not really, I just wanted to point that out.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Ok and now Pac-Man characters:

    Pac-Man (Neutral Good)
    Ghosts (Neutral Evil)

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Regarding Lex Luthor, how much real 'evil' has he done? I'm way behind on my Superman lore. I think most of the time he doesn't kill people even indirectly.

    If I remember right, it might be a tough call between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Neutral (Neutral?). He's absolutely selfish, but he does recognize that other people being alive and buying his stuff makes money for him. It's just that with how many laws he breaks I think of an error screen when trying to think of him as Lawful.
    Personally, I think that Luthor is Lawful Neutral in his typical portrayal. He's a criminal, but most is considered a legitimate businessman because he uses and manipulates the legal and political system to further and coverup his criminal activities. IMO, that's how a criminal can be lawful--he doesn't want to destroy the system of laws in his society, but instead twist them to his own ends.

    OTOH, Luthor commits his crimes to enrich himself, not to harm others. In most portrayals, he doesn't enjoy the suffering of others; he's largely indifferent to it as long as it advances his plans (exceptions to this occur when writers depict him as more concerned with his rivalry with Superman than with practical plans for his own gain). That makes him Neutral on the Good/Evil axis IMO.

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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    Personally, I think that Luthor is Lawful Neutral in his typical portrayal. He's a criminal, but most are considered a legitimate businessman because he uses and manipulates the legal and political system to further and coverup his criminal activities. IMO, that's how a criminal can be lawful--he doesn't want to destroy the system of laws in his society but instead twist them to his own ends.

    OTOH, Luthor commits his crimes to enrich himself, not to harm others. In most portrayals, he doesn't enjoy the suffering of others; he's largely indifferent to it as long as it advances his plans (exceptions to this occur when writers depict him as more concerned with his rivalry with Superman than with practical plans for his own gain). That makes him Neutral on the Good/Evil axis IMO.
    Maybe Lawful Neutral. I do agree with the lawful part but not entirely sure on the neutral part. I have watched so many cartoons and TV shows on Lex on so many occasion that he wants to destroy Superman. But to me, he's Lawful Evil in my eyes.

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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Marvel, cuz theyíre unrepresented here.

    Iron Man(Neutral Good)
    Captain America(Lawful Good)
    Hulk(Chaotic Good)
    Thor(Neutral Good)
    Ant-Man(was Chaotic Good, now Neutral Good)
    Wasp(Lawful Good
    Hawkeye(Neutral Good)
    Black Widow(Chaotic Good)
    Sentry(Chaotic Good)
    Ghost Rider(Chaotic Neutral)
    Thanos(Lawful Evil)
    Here's to cheating, stealing, fighting, and drinking!

    Should you cheat, may you cheat death.

    Should you steal, steal a woman's heart.

    If you fight, may it be for a brother.

    If you drink, it shall be with one another.


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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    More DC Characters

    The Brain (Lawful Evil)

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    OTOH, Luthor commits his crimes to enrich himself, not to harm others. In most portrayals, he doesn't enjoy the suffering of others; he's largely indifferent to it as long as it advances his plans (exceptions to this occur when writers depict him as more concerned with his rivalry with Superman than with practical plans for his own gain). That makes him Neutral on the Good/Evil axis IMO.
    Nope - "does Evil purely for profit" is no less Evil aligned than "Does evil because they enjoy knowing they are making others suffer."

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/descriptio...NineAlignments


    Neutral Evil, "Malefactor"
    A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesnít have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.

    Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake.
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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    OTOH, Luthor commits his crimes to enrich himself, not to harm others. In most portrayals, he doesn't enjoy the suffering of others; he's largely indifferent to it as long as it advances his plans (exceptions to this occur when writers depict him as more concerned with his rivalry with Superman than with practical plans for his own gain). That makes him Neutral on the Good/Evil axis IMO.
    Thereís a lot in the alignment system that is inconsistent, and there is a great degree of variation among portrayals. This is not one of those.

    Lex Luthor commits evil acts, and its his regular pattern. No one is making him do those acts. It is irrelevant if he does so ďto profitĒ (which you probably mean loosely, Lex wants a lot of things other than just money, like power and knowledge).

    There are some characters in D&D supplements that are neutral and yet are willing to do evil things for pay or because they have other affiliations with evil characters. Lex does not fit that profile. Henchmen do not typically fit that profile either, and in fact, most mercenary villains in DC and Marvel donít fit that profile (they are otherwise inclined to commit evil acts, they are not true switch hitters).
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Ok and now Pac-Man characters:

    Pac-Man (Neutral Good)
    Ghosts (Neutral Evil)
    Are you kidding? Pac-Man is the definition of Neutral Evil! He is the archetype of consumerist greed, running around gobbling up every bit of sustenance he can, not even leaving the poor souls of the departed to their rightful rest! And even when the ghosts act in defence of their hallowed ground (they're Lawful Neutral, they exist only to protect a place!) he then consumes even more and sets out to crunch their incorporeal forms in his ever-destroying maw!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Are you kidding? Pac-Man is the definition of Neutral Evil! He is the archetype of consumerist greed, running around gobbling up every bit of sustenance he can, not even leaving the poor souls of the departed to their rightful rest! And even when the ghosts act in defence of their hallowed ground (they're Lawful Neutral, they exist only to protect a place!) he then consumes even more and sets out to crunch their incorporeal forms in his ever-destroying maw!
    How is Pac-Man Neutral Evil and how the Ghosts Lawful Neutral? First out the Ghosts are Neutral Evil because they're going after Pac-Man and Pac-Man is Neutral Good because he's going to stop the Ghosts. I've played his game before.

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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    How is Pac-Man Neutral Evil and how the Ghosts Lawful Neutral? First out the Ghosts are Neutral Evil because they're going after Pac-Man and Pac-Man is Neutral Good because he's going to stop the Ghosts. I've played his game before.
    But he isn't after them, he is after the pellets. He will kill them if he can weaken them, but his goal is simply pellet hoarding.

    Blinky is driven and dedicated, following Pacman relentlessly. LN
    Pinky is cunning, trying to get ahead to launch an ambush. NE
    Inky is fickle, sometimes chasing, sometimes hiding, other times wandering off. CN
    Clyde is a bungling idiot who wanders off and will actively ignore Pacman. NN

    Spoiler
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    Was that all just because I love reminding people of the ghost's names? Maybe.
    GNU Terry Pratchett

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilDMMk3 View Post
    But he isn't after them, he is after the pellets. He will kill them if he can weaken them, but his goal is simply pellet hoarding.

    Blinky is driven and dedicated, following Pacman relentlessly. LN
    Pinky is cunning, trying to get ahead to launch an ambush. NE
    Inky is fickle, sometimes chasing, sometimes hiding, other times wandering off. CN
    Clyde is a bungling idiot who wanders off and will actively ignore Pacman. NN

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    Was that all just because I love reminding people of the ghost's names? Maybe.
    That's true. Is NN True Neutral?

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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    That's true. Is NN True Neutral?
    That's always how I wrote it. On the basis of lacking sufficient intelligence to make moral/ethical decisions :)
    GNU Terry Pratchett

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilDMMk3 View Post
    That's always how I wrote it. On the basis of lacking sufficient intelligence to make moral/ethical decisions :)
    Ok. I was just making sure.

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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    True. Of course, a criminal organization better be run in an extremely orderly fashion for it to work IRL or things tend to go down in a very messy and bloody fashion, but a very chaotic one is just fine for D&D.
    Unless its changed in recent editions (which is entierly likely), isn't "Lawful" in D&D more about "believes in the importance of rules, heirachy, ordered society, and people doing what they're told", rather than merely "following the laws of the land"? Whereas Chaotic means the opposite (i.e. "rules, heirachy, ordered society, and people doing what they are told are all bad things").

    So a mafia-like criminal organisation is Lawful because it has its own internal rules and heirachies and codes of conduct (and also usually tries to work with or subvert the law of the land). Whereas a Chaotic criminal "organisation" would be more like a loose association of people causing trouble for the lulz, or a gang of psychos who rearely get anything useful done because they are always trying to screw each other over.

    Likewise, you can also have both Lawful and Chaotic rebels. The Rebel Alliance from Star Wars (and many incarnations of Robin Hood) are Lawful rebels - they think the government has siezed power illigitimately, and want to restore the original government that they think is good. Whereas V from V for Vendeta is a Chaotic rebel - [going by my memories of the film] he not only thinks that the extant government is bad, but government in general is bad, and prefers to tear it down and see what happens rather than trying to build a better system.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Hamishspence can tell you how often you get Lawful organizations that ignore the law of the land (EDIT In the sense I know he knows the stuff cold). I can note that there is always reasons organizations arenít following the ruling authority, often lawful sounding ones.

    The law of the land isnít the end all and be all of what lawfulness is, but itís a part of it. In the books that go into detail on this sort of thing, acting contrary to authority will be among the non-lawful acts.

    Of course, a PC that acts contrary to their alignment will shift alignment and NPCs are typically not supposed to do this.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2019-09-09 at 06:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    More DC characters:

    Lightning Lad (Chaotic Good
    Brainiac 5 (Lawful Good)
    Bouncing Boy (Neutral Good)
    Superman X (Chaotic Good)
    Timber Wolf (Chaotic Good)
    Imperalix (Chaotic Evil)
    Brainiac (Lawful Evil)

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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    If this is any fictional character, I have a whole bunch of stuff to drop here. I'll start with Les Mis:

    Marius? The Rebels
    Fantine
    Jean Valjean
    Toussaint Cossete Eponine
    Marius' Grandfather
    Javert N/A The Thernardiers
    Anyone I missed? Note that I'm using the book, not the play.

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    Default Re: Fictional Character Alignment Thread #2

    Rugrats characters:

    Tommy (Neutral Good)
    Chuckie (Neutral Good)
    Phil (Neutral Good)
    Lil (Neutral Good
    Angelica (Chaotic Evil)
    Suzie (Neutral Good)

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