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    eek [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Is this class ability as crazy broken as I think it is, or am I misreading it?

    Rashemi Spirit Magic (Ex): A hathran's training in the unique magic of her homeland gives her uncanny versatility. Beginning at 1st level, a hathran who prepares spells may choose to spontaneously cast any spell she knows in place of any spell of the same level that she has prepared, even if it is not on the same spell list as the substituted one. If the hathran normally does not prepare spells, she may instead utilize metamagic feats without the additional casting time normally required, though a spell so altered still uses up a higher-level spell slot, as normal. The hathran must be within the boundaries of Rashemen to use this ability, and there is no limit to the number of times she may do so.
    So...this would give a Druid, or Cleric, access to spontaneously cast any Cleric or Druid spell?

    Or a Druid 7/Cleric 1/Hathran 1 could spontaneously cast any Cleric or Druid spell, using their Druid spell slots???

    I may be late to the discussion here, but that's bonkers! OK, it is limited to one (rather large) geographic location, but still. Could Acorn of Far Travel shenanigans be used to get around the geographic limitation?

    I mean, I know many FR PrCs push the upper limits of power play, but I'd never stumbled across this particular ability until now.

    Cheers - T

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Yes and Yes.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Is this class ability as crazy broken as I think it is, or am I misreading it?



    So...this would give a Druid, or Cleric, access to spontaneously cast any Cleric or Druid spell?

    Or a Druid 7/Cleric 1/Hathran 1 could spontaneously cast any Cleric or Druid spell, using their Druid spell slots???

    I may be late to the discussion here, but that's bonkers! OK, it is limited to one (rather large) geographic location, but still. Could Acorn of Far Travel shenanigans be used to get around the geographic limitation?

    I mean, I know many FR PrCs push the upper limits of power play, but I'd never stumbled across this particular ability until now.

    Cheers - T

    Well it depends if you rule that even a level 1 druid knows every spell in his spell list and not just the cantrips and lv 1 spells. If that is the case then yes at level 20 you can get 19 levels of full casting in 2 classes with just 2 dips. If the druid receive knowledge of all the spells of a particular level when he is able to cast them you get basically nothing in exchange for one of your higher level spells per day and possibly the class capstone.

    But again as many things it's up to the DM to decide wheter or not it works.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    It's unclear to me that a Druid or Cleric knows their spells---that language is not used in their description. Wizards know spells, as do every spontaneous caster.

    Perhaps a better way to exploit this is via Wizard 7/Archivist 1/Hathran 3 since Wizards and Archivists surely know their spells.

    Do note that Universal Spirit Magic (at 3rd level) applies everywhere.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Acorn of far travel explicitly works.

    SRD Cleric says

    A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level,

    SRD druid says

    A druid may prepare and cast any spell on the druid spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level

    I think you would have to have said level in the class to cast, ie 7th level cleric to cast 4th level cleric spells, but its a bit murky and I can see argument either way. Ask your dm.

    Known spell is a bit iffy since cleric and druid spells are granted, but I think it is within RAI.

    Wizard or archivist checks outs though, as do sorcerer, favored soul etc. AFB so not sure on dread necro, beguiler, and warmage.
    Last edited by Efrate; 2019-08-21 at 10:39 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Divine casters don't know their spells (except for the ones that do).

    As per the glossary:
    known spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.
    In the hypothetical where they do know their spells, however, I don't think acorn of far travel would necessarily work either. "As long as you carry the acorn [...] you are considered to be standing under that oak tree's canopy (and thus within an area of forested terrain)." In my estimation, you don't count as being in that location for any purpose other than the presence or absence of the tree. It's less "I'm effectively still in Rashemen" than "The tree is effectively following me around like Pikachu in Pokťmon Yellow."

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    In the hypothetical where they do know their spells, however, I don't think acorn of far travel would necessarily work either. "As long as you carry the acorn [...] you are considered to be standing under that oak tree's canopy (and thus within an area of forested terrain)." In my estimation, you don't count as being in that location for any purpose other than the presence or absence of the tree. It's less "I'm effectively still in Rashemen" than "The tree is effectively following me around like Pikachu in Pokťmon Yellow."
    So, this would mean you never get sunburn, a Horizon Walker gets Hide+4(Competence), a Ranger 13 can use Camouflage anywhere, and Ranger 17 can HiPS anywhere. That does seem like a nicely toned down interpretation more commensurate with a 2nd level spell.

    It still leaves Universal Spirit Magic granting an Archivist 1/Wizard 7/Hathran 10 the ability to cast 3 up-to-9th level Archivist spells per day, something I hadn't fully appreciated.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    I hadn't read Universal Spirit Magic. So even if Acorn of Far Travel is disallowed, you can still ignore the geographical restriction up to 3/day.

    And like 99% of FR casting PrCs, it's 10/10 casting progression.

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    I'm still curious about Clerics and Druids "knowing" spells...

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-on-their-list

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I hadn't read Universal Spirit Magic. So even if Acorn of Far Travel is disallowed, you can still ignore the geographical restriction up to 3/day.

    And like 99% of FR casting PrCs, it's 10/10 casting progression.
    And you haven't even mentioned Circle Magic.

    W.r.t. Clerics and Druids knowing spells, Troacctid's interpretation has support from RAW and is more conservative for what is already a high-powered class, hence it's the one I've gone with. Ruling otherwise implies Versatile Spellcaster allows a cleric/druid to draw on any of 1000+ spells many times / day.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    So probably the safest way to break this ability by RAW is to be a Wizard/Archivist, with a bucket-load of spells in your Spellbook and Prayerbook.

    Comes close to being an omnimancer who can access almost every spell in the game, spontaneously.
    Last edited by Thurbane; 2019-08-21 at 09:22 PM.

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Being a wizard/archivist and not taking mystic theurge seems a bit suspect.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Being a wizard/archivist and not taking mystic theurge seems a bit suspect.
    Well, I guess that come down to how you define those classes "knowing" their spells. Do they need to be of high enough level to cast them? Or is simply having them scribed in a book, after making a successful Spellcraft check?

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    It doesn't matter, because you can't use slots from one class to spontaneously cast spells from another class. Only your archivist spell slots could be used to cast your divine spells.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    It doesn't matter, because you can't use slots from one class to spontaneously cast spells from another class. Only your archivist spell slots could be used to cast your divine spells.
    ... except that Rashemi Spirit Magic creates an explicit special case exception to this rule via:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rashemi Spirit Magic
    ...even if it is not on the same spell list as the substituted one.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Well, I guess that come down to how you define those classes "knowing" their spells. Do they need to be of high enough level to cast them? Or is simply having them scribed in a book, after making a successful Spellcraft check?
    From Troacctid's quote: "For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks." The Archivist's prayerbook and the Wu Jen's spellbook have identical mechanics.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    To be fair that's not even the tip of the iceberg on Hathran cheese.

    They get Circle Magic. Enough said.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    ... except that Rashemi Spirit Magic creates an explicit special case exception to this rule via:
    That's true. I forgot about that. (Or, also a possibility, some sort of Ellimist may have retroactively altered the timeline to add that clause to the book after my post. You never know.)

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    They get Circle Magic. Enough said.
    These also appear to combine? Circle magic can allow you to prepare a 9th level spell and get caster level 17 allowing Universal Spirit Magic to spontaneously cast any known wizard or divine 9th level spell at character level 13 via Archivist 1/Wizard 7/Hathran 5.

    A few variations:
    1) An Archivist 7/Hathran 6/Chameleon 1 can apparently know and spontaneously cast any spell (divine or arcane).
    2) An Archivist 7/Hathran 5 can know and spontaneously cast any spell with a permissive DM allowing all possible sources of divine spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    (Or, also a possibility, some sort of Ellimist may have retroactively altered the timeline to add that clause to the book after my post. You never know.)
    Time travelers mucking with causality are the bane of sanity.
    Last edited by Anthrowhale; 2019-08-21 at 11:45 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    From Troacctid's quote: "For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks." The Archivist's prayerbook and the Wu Jen's spellbook have identical mechanics.
    The closest quote I've got for Divine spellcasters 'knowing' their spells is from the PHB (p180):

    NEW DIVINE SPELLS

    Divine spellcasters most frequently gain new spells in one of the following two ways.

    Spells Gained at a New Level: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures. Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, he or she learns new spells from that level automatically.

    Independent Research: A divine spellcaster also can research a spell independently, much as an arcane spellcaster can. (The Dungeon Masterís Guide has information on this topic under Creating New Spells in Chapter 2.) Only the creator of such a spell can prepare and cast it, unless he decides to share it with others. Some such creators share their research with their churches, but others do not. The character can create a magic scroll (provided that he or she has the Scribe Scroll feat) or write a special text similar to a spellbook to contain spells he or she has independently researched. Other divine spellcasters who find the spell in written form can learn to cast it, provided they are of sufficient level to do so and are of the same class as the creator. The process requires deciphering the writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above).

    (Emphasis added)

    The argument would go that, because Divine spellcasters: (a) learn spells each time they receive a new level of spells; and (b) can research new spells, or learn new spells from magical writings left by other divine casters, they effectively 'know' spells.

    See also the description of Scribe Scroll: 'You can create a scroll of any spell that you know' (emphasis added). The DMG expressly notes that Clerics can scribe scrolls (although that's non-contentious) (at page 238): 'For example, clerics create scrolls of divine spells, wizards create scrolls of arcane spells, and so forth)'.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    These also appear to combine? Circle magic can allow you to prepare a 9th level spell and get caster level 17 allowing Universal Spirit Magic to spontaneously cast any known wizard or divine 9th level spell at character level 13 via Archivist 1/Wizard 7/Hathran 5.

    A few variations:
    1) An Archivist 7/Hathran 6/Chameleon 1 can apparently know and spontaneously cast any spell (divine or arcane).
    2) An Archivist 7/Hathran 5 can know and spontaneously cast any spell with a permissive DM allowing all possible sources of divine spells.
    A level of Wu-Jen could be thrown in for an extra spellbook to raid. There are a handful of really nice Wu-Jen only spells.

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    To be fair that's not even the tip of the iceberg on Hathran cheese.

    They get Circle Magic. Enough said.
    And at epic levels, they're the only full caster class in the game which gets a bonus feat 1/2 levels. Oh, and they get an extra use of universal spirit magic 1/3 levels as well.

    Yeah, Hathrans are ridiculous even without assuming that a single level of Cleric or Druid allows them to spontaneously cast their entire spell list...

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
    Other divine spellcasters who find the spell in written form can learn to cast it, provided they are of sufficient level to do so and are of the same class as the creator.
    I generally think of 'learn' as implying 'know' since 'know' is the logical result of 'learn'. As a consequence this is strong evidence. However, Troacctid's quote adds two criteria, so the full default criteria are:
    1. Arcane Spellcaster
    2. has learned
    3. can prepare

    The second two criteria are clearly satisfied, but the first criteria is not. This is making me doubt that archivists "know" their spells despite sharing the same learning mechanic as a wizard due to the lack of the first criteria. This also nerfs any possibility of single feat based access to spontaneous casting off the entire list for Cleric and Druid.

    Even if we assume that, you still get something broken good via Wizard 1/Archivist 7/Hathran 6. To check:
    1. Arcane Spellcaster: Wizard 1
    2. has learned: any spell scribed into their spellbook.
    3. can prepare: use Circle Magic[Heighten L1 wizard spell] + Limited Wish[Rary's Arcane Conversion] (limited wish is coming from the Archivist side).

    At this point, you've enabled spontaneous casting off all scribed wizard spells on the wizard list 2/day via Universal Spirit Magic.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Too bad you have ethran as a prerequisite otherwise you could pick magical training to have a spellbook and put spells there.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    I generally think of 'learn' as implying 'know' since 'know' is the logical result of 'learn'. As a consequence this is strong evidence. However, Troacctid's quote adds two criteria, so the full default criteria are:
    1. Arcane Spellcaster
    2. has learned
    3. can prepare

    The second two criteria are clearly satisfied, but the first criteria is not. This is making me doubt that archivists "know" their spells despite sharing the same learning mechanic as a wizard due to the lack of the first criteria. This also nerfs any possibility of single feat based access to spontaneous casting off the entire list for Cleric and Druid.

    Even if we assume that, you still get something broken good via Wizard 1/Archivist 7/Hathran 6. To check:
    1. Arcane Spellcaster: Wizard 1
    2. has learned: any spell scribed into their spellbook.
    3. can prepare: use Circle Magic[Heighten L1 wizard spell] + Limited Wish[Rary's Arcane Conversion] (limited wish is coming from the Archivist side).

    At this point, you've enabled spontaneous casting off all scribed wizard spells on the wizard list 2/day via Universal Spirit Magic.
    Is there a distinction between a 'known spell' and a spell that you know?

    If you take the view that they are both the same definition, that suggests that no divine spellcaster can ever use scribe scroll. From the description of the feat:

    SCRIBE SCROLL
    [ITEM CREATION]

    You can create scrolls, from which you or another spellcaster can cast the scribed spells. See the Dungeon Masterís Guide for rules on scrolls.

    Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.

    Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a scroll is its spell level ◊ its caster level ◊ 25 gp. To scribe a scroll, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price.

    Any scroll that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when scribing the scroll.


    (Emphasis added).

    See also page 282 of the DMG:

    Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the itemís creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

    On the same page, the DMG assumes a Cleric is capable of creating scrolls on their own:

    The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
    Is there a distinction between a 'known spell' and a spell that you know?
    I'd say no, unless some sort of contradiction arises.

    Looking closely at the scroll creation rules, I see:
    Quote Originally Posted by Creating Scrolls
    The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed...
    So, scribe scroll allows you to scribe any spell that you know, but the scroll creation rules (which also require scribe scroll) expand this to any spell that you prepare.

    This avoids a contradiction since clerics can scribe scrolls via spell preparation rather than via spell knowledge.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Are there any sample NPCs with Hathran levels? I mean, stat blocks are never a good source of RAw, but they sometimes give a glimpse into RAI...

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    I'd say no, unless some sort of contradiction arises.

    Looking closely at the scroll creation rules, I see:

    So, scribe scroll allows you to scribe any spell that you know, but the scroll creation rules (which also require scribe scroll) expand this to any spell that you prepare.

    This avoids a contradiction since clerics can scribe scrolls via spell preparation rather than via spell knowledge.
    I thought about that, but the full language of that passage (and other item creation feats) provides:

    The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the casterís XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

    I.e. the passage is talking about this in the context of providing the spell as part of the item creation process (and expending a spell slot in that process). For example, even though the passage refers to a spell slot being expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, I assume you're not suggesting that Sorcerers and Bards can create items without expending a spell slot.

    That makes it consistent with the earlier passage I quoted:

    Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the itemís creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Let's reread this with a different emphasis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
    Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the itemís creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
    This implies that the requirement for any item creation is not knowing a spell, but rather merely accessing a spell (a strictly weaker condition according to the known spell criteria). Clerics can access spells allowing them to scribe scrolls. Related, a wizard that has a wand of fireball but does not know fireball can make a scroll of fireball.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Are there any sample NPCs with Hathran levels? I mean, stat blocks are never a good source of RAw, but they sometimes give a glimpse into RAI...
    Not that I'm aware of, but it would be cool to find one. Note that Hathran is one of those classes which changed substantially from 3.0 to 3.5.
    Last edited by Anthrowhale; 2019-08-23 at 10:52 PM.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Hathran - Rashemi Spirit Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Let's reread this with a different emphasis.

    This implies that the requirement for any item creation is not knowing a spell, but rather merely accessing a spell (a strictly weaker condition according to the known spell criteria). Clerics can access spells allowing them to scribe scrolls. Related, a wizard that has a wand of fireball but does not know fireball can make a scroll of fireball.


    Not that I'm aware of, but it would be cool to find one. Note that Hathran is one of those classes which changed substantially from 3.0 to 3.5.
    I agree that a Wizard that has a wand of fireball but does not know fireball can make a scroll of fireball - but isn't that just 'access through another magic item or spellcaster' (i.e. access through something other than the spellcaster himself or herself)?

    I.e., to take our Cleric, aren't the ways in which he could scribe a Cure Moderate Wounds scroll as follows:

    • knowing the spell and preparing it (since the Cleric is not a Sorcerer or Bard, and must additionally prepare it); or
    • using a magic item; or
    • using another spellcaster?

    I agree that knowledge is not required if you use a magic item or spellcaster, but otherwise it still seems to be a requirement.

    Separately to the above, the Spell Glyph version of a Glyph of Warding (Clr 3) has the following text:

    Spell Glyph: You can store any harmful spell of 3rd level or lower that you know. All level-dependent features of the spell are based on your caster level at the time of casting the glyph.

    If Clerics don't know spells, then that text has no work to do.

    I wonder if one reason for the definition in the PHB is that, in the PHB, the only casters that have to select spells that they 'know' are arcane casters.

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