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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    So one of the players in my current campaign has gotten a new job. He is unable to to play with us every week. So we all decided to make a different set of characters and do a campaign for when he isn't able to play. We don't want to play that campaign with him missing. He'd miss out a lot on the story.

    So, we decided to instead rather than skipping on weeks he can't join, is to play something else. The idea we had was play as monsters, the villains and defend a dungeon from "good" parties. So, our DM likes the idea. I'm honestly not sure what to play. Probably gestalt, I had a few thoughts on either Thrikreen or Trolls, but before I start design I wanted opinions on what everyone else would do in a dungeon defense / pillage or raid towns for resources. So, what would everyone else play in that situation?
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Wizards are weak because they need to read! Sorcerers can take the Illiterate trait to minmax themselves to extremes that other classes can only dream of!
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Anything with <=1 rhd and artificier. Barring that a space only accessible by flight, burrowing or another hard to acquire movement mode so the terrain works as your first line of defense. Extremely hostile environments work too, like fire elementals who live in a series of caves under a lake of lava in a semi-active volcano.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Do you have any details on what type of dungeon you'll be defending? Do you need to construct it yourself?

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepultra View Post
    Do you have any details on what type of dungeon you'll be defending? Do you need to construct it yourself?
    We'll be constructing it to fit our characters needs. Within reason, I think he plans to limit it based on WBL slightly modified we'll get to talking about that in a bit. We were gonna figure characters out first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Wizards are weak because they need to read! Sorcerers can take the Illiterate trait to minmax themselves to extremes that other classes can only dream of!
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    DM- Overlord Campaign - Ainz wiped the floor but they did manage to clear several floor guardians. Playing - Gestalt game character WIP.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Half Minotaur w/Leadership.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jack_Simth's Avatar

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Heh.

    As a DM, I once built a Sorcerer who could construct dungeons. Disintegrate, the Planar Binding line (plus supporting spells), Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, Illusory Wall, and Fabricate were all on his list. Charm Monster wouldn't have been out of line. Fully comes online at 13th, able to construct decent dungeons with just daily resources.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorddenorstrus View Post
    We'll be constructing it to fit our characters needs. Within reason, I think he plans to limit it based on WBL slightly modified we'll get to talking about that in a bit. We were gonna figure characters out first.
    I mean, what do you want to do then? Like what do you want to be able to do to defend the dungeon? Set traps & ambushed? Swarm people with mobs? Catch adventurers in rooms and beat them down in a 1v1?

    There's a huge amount of variety. Kinda hard to suggest stuff if you don't know what you want to do.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Undead, warforged, or other constructs: adventurers like to attack when you are sleeping.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepultra View Post
    I mean, what do you want to do then? Like what do you want to be able to do to defend the dungeon? Set traps & ambushed? Swarm people with mobs? Catch adventurers in rooms and beat them down in a 1v1?

    There's a huge amount of variety. Kinda hard to suggest stuff if you don't know what you want to do.
    That's why I asked what people would do themselves. I personally think making the dungeon crafted to fit your party will solve the problem. If I design a 1v1 arena guy I'd design it to create that scenario for example. I'm just unsure what I'd want to play *shrug*. Or what would be effective, tbh I don't spend a ton of time in "dungeons" on most of my characters. Most of our settings haven't been applicable for that. Politics angles etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Wizards are weak because they need to read! Sorcerers can take the Illiterate trait to minmax themselves to extremes that other classes can only dream of!
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Eh, it depends.

    For a cheesy one-shot, or at low level, I'd probably go Shadow or Pixie. Be able to go places that the adventurers can't, attack with surprise. (EDIT: also, raid the village for Shadow-geddon)

    For a high-level one-shot, Vampire. Same basic concept, totally not worth the LA for a real game.

    What I'd really enjoy? Hmmm… Void. 20-headed Lernaean Paragon Shadow Dragon. Breathes for -320 levels/HD, save for half. Throw in some Ur-Priest levels (and Leadership) for s&g.

    Although Illithid Savant and Beholder Mage (or even just plain Beholder) wouldn't be terrible.

    For a serious low-level game? Hmmm… honestly, Dark Petal Rogue isn't horrible. Sneak attack party members to death without ever being seen. Steal their stuff. Flee if necessary.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2019-08-22 at 06:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarvenWarCorgi View Post
    Half Minotaur w/Leadership.
    on top of that make him a Knight with the feats "Martial Stance" and "Martial Study" making sure you take "Iron Guards Glare"
    it makes it so that moving through your threatened squares is like moving through difficult terrain for your opponents.

    You may also look into some pathfinder feats like "Hold the line" "Step up" and a few others that will help stop charging and moving characters that are trying to get through your area. then you may want a weapon that can be used for "Trip" attempts. i have a knight build that i use that has a 30 foot radius of reach, and can stop or slow down anything in that area and trip up to 3 people per round.

    this will make it quite easy for your party to pick them off or gang up on the powerful ones. just a thought, but its worth looking into.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Play a Rust monster! lol

    Joke aside, i would say play either your favorit or you most hated monster, both can be fun.
    Also, do i must ask, only monsters/monstrous humanoids are allowed or normal humanoids too?

    Im a fan of ambush/combo attacks and tactic as well as traps!
    also, i would recommend you read up on Tucker's kobolds, they are great!

    and i would advise against going 1vs1, as those pesky mur- *ahem* adventurers will gang up on you or will buff up whoever challange you however they can.

    Antimagic field might be your friend, probably....

    Edit #1: Max sleight of hand with move silently and hide lol
    Last edited by TheCount; 2019-08-22 at 07:41 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Also pseudodragons takes easily more screen time than "true" dragons.
    (but it is fair: "true" dragons are not telepathic venomous flying cats and so does not deserve screen time like a pseudodragon)

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Edit #1: Max sleight of hand with move silently and hide lol
    Yup, that's what the Dark Petal Rogue I mentioned is designed for.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Spider riders. All of yah. Ride giant spiders.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Yup, that's what the Dark Petal Rogue I mentioned is designed for.
    ninjaed, dammit! and why are there petals in my room?

    Also, only chose ranged attacks if you can outgun the mages or more sesibly, you made preparations.

    AMF is basic after that though? you probably want either rockfalls, oil showers or being on top of a ramp thats euther rocky or bushy fordificoult terrain (or any combination of the above).

    alas i its just general recommendation.
    Last edited by TheCount; 2019-08-22 at 10:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Also pseudodragons takes easily more screen time than "true" dragons.
    (but it is fair: "true" dragons are not telepathic venomous flying cats and so does not deserve screen time like a pseudodragon)

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    If you get to design both monsters and dungeon, it opens up avenues that are suboptimal for players. If you further know that you will be facing mostly human or human-sized opposition, I would find it fun to build around feats, class/race abilities, and spells that involve moving your enemies around, then design the dungeon to be full of lethal deathtrap you can trip, bull-rush, throw, Defenstrating Sphere, etc. People into.

    Have a Kobold Martial Adept specializing in Setting Sun. Have a minotaur optimized for bull rushing (dungeon crasher, maybe?) Spend every encounter one-shotting adventurers by tossing them into lava pits, pushing them into Gelatinous Cubes, and so on.

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Alright i guess i never actually put forward an ACTUAL character so here goes

    (Assuming pathfinder and D&D 3.5 cuz thats how i normally play)
    Savant Doppleganger shadow creature (LA 8)
    Factotum or Archivist
    +12 to Int (which is the main focus)
    Factotum should use all his feats for Font of Inspiration, giving him more damage and more options in combat.
    factotum should also take debuff spells for his spellcasting
    factotum should also take the Knowledge devotion feat so he can gain more damage based on his knowledge rolls.

    Archivist should focus on buffing his party to deal more damage
    Archivist should also focus his feats on gaining more knowledge as it will help the whole area.
    Archivist should sit in the back and be an off healer or primary healer if needed
    Archivist should also try working in a few debuffs into his spell list.

    the factotum would focus mainly on bringing characters in close by posing as a wounded adventurer begging for help then attacking while they are flat footed. (also take the Iaijutsu focus and Quick draw feats to do even more damage)

    the archivist will be mostly a shot caller, strategist, healer, buffer and semi debuffer.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Or, this could finally be my opportunity to play a Marilith! Teleportation, Animate Dead, Cloud Kill, crazy number of attacks - what's not to love?

  19. - Top - End - #19
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Or, this could finally be my opportunity to play a Marilith! Teleportation, Animate Dead, Cloud Kill, crazy number of attacks - what's not to love?
    Is she riding a giant spider?

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Be xorns, have the entire place in an amf, no corridors that lead anywhere relevant, and mundane traps, especially if you can manually trigger deadfalls and such from total cover in a rock. Somewhere with noxious fumes as well, again volcanoish works, you should be able to earth glide around lava lakes.

    You want to do your best to eliminate magic from your enemies, and take full advantage of dangerous mundane features like terrain and hostile environment. You force the infiltrators to play mundane and strip them of most of their powerful tools. You then force attrition and most of your threats are consistent and hard to defend against. Spring attacking hit and run tactics are your go to, you NEVER stand and fight.

    They never get a rest inside your domain, you always interrupt every half hour or so, if they exit you pursue only far enough that you can retreat safely no matter what. You kill mounts, wreck camps, eat followers and everything when they are not there.

    Have your amf tied to things you can cover to temporarily shut off, then use wall of stone and stone shape to rearrange your domain every time they leave.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    These are some great ideas, thanks guys. Gonna hit the drawing board with the group and see what we figure out. One player has landed on Beholder pretty strongly. Dunno if this'll be a one shot or not, but see how it goes. I'm pretty intrigued on playing as monsters rather than hero's unique angle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Wizards are weak because they need to read! Sorcerers can take the Illiterate trait to minmax themselves to extremes that other classes can only dream of!
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    DM- Overlord Campaign - Ainz wiped the floor but they did manage to clear several floor guardians. Playing - Gestalt game character WIP.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Or, this could finally be my opportunity to play a Marilith! Teleportation, Animate Dead, Cloud Kill, crazy number of attacks - what's not to love?
    There are a few sleeper abilities on a Marilith.
    I once had a party fight a Marilith in Pathfinder. Since the party was a bit optimized, I tacked on the Graveknight template.
    They fought her in a dojo type room, with several racks of Large sized Longswords (15 to a rack, some of the treasure so they were all masterwork).
    She was also 'levitating' over a 20' diameter hole in the ground(that was obviously the top of a blade barrier, so they would be wary of falling in) that extended further than their light sources, and no natural lights of course.
    As soon as the invisible barbarian/rogue enters the room, she starts taunting them, going to teach them a lesson... that whole shtick. Because True Seeing.
    The barbarian/rogue immediately charges and uses a reach weapon to not fall into the hole and 'misses' and then rolls a Will saving throw but nothing happens (because he failed).
    A couple other players take actions and the Wizard makes his Spellcraft check to realize that the Graveknight Marilith is just an illusion.
    "Just an illusion? Can an illusion do this?" She says as she uses her Telekinesis SLA to pick up a rack of 15 Longswords, which all promptly burst into flame because I decided to allow the Graveknight's Channel Destruction and the Marilith's innate Infuse Weapon to apply and flings 15 attacks at 2d6+1(physical) +4d6(fire). Granted only about half of them hit(8), but even then 16d6+8+32d6 adds up quickly. I think he had some minor fire resistance, but the average for that amount of dice is 176.
    The illusion is Project Image and you can cast and target spells as if you were the image. Mariliths in 3.5 and PF both have Project Image and Telekinesis at-will and can simply Greater Teleport to reset the fight anytime they want. Without Graveknight or in 3.5, the TK/Racks of Large Longswords is still 15 +23 to hit for 2d6/each attack with a decent chance to hit, since its only a couple points lower than their full bab attack.
    Oh, and she was 250' down the hole in the ground, and had placed 2 more blade barriers every 100 feet so if you just jumped in (or TKed into the hole) you would fall through 3 blade barriers. When they actually got to her, she immediately rolled a natural 1 on a dazing fireball turned to acid to get past her immunity to fire from graveknight, so 3 rounds of doing nothing. Anticlimactic.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Shadow or another incorporeal intelligent undead, with Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes, and Lifesense. Hide in the wall/floor, peeking out between the stones. AoO a physically weak character as they walk by, initiative is rolled, move through the wall/floor without exposing yourself if they've readied actions. Spring Attack and hit someone with Str damage, always end your turn in the wall. If they ready actions, just take a few turns to move around so you're not in reach when you strike, or wait them out.

    Take Evolved Undead for Greater Dispel Magic, but keep everything at the lowest CR possible. You don't want the good guys to be high enough level to afford Soulfire armor or similar. The only thing you should really worry about is a readied Turn Undead, so be as buff against that as possible. Say you were created in the area of a Fell Energy Desecrate (+6 hp/hd), by a Dread Necromancer 8+ with all of the Corpsecrafter line of feats.

    Actually, just read this post, you should do fine.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebug View Post
    There are a few sleeper abilities on a Marilith.
    I once had a party fight a Marilith in Pathfinder. Since the party was a bit optimized, I tacked on the Graveknight template.
    They fought her in a dojo type room, with several racks of Large sized Longswords (15 to a rack, some of the treasure so they were all masterwork).
    She was also 'levitating' over a 20' diameter hole in the ground(that was obviously the top of a blade barrier, so they would be wary of falling in) that extended further than their light sources, and no natural lights of course.
    As soon as the invisible barbarian/rogue enters the room, she starts taunting them, going to teach them a lesson... that whole shtick. Because True Seeing.
    The barbarian/rogue immediately charges and uses a reach weapon to not fall into the hole and 'misses' and then rolls a Will saving throw but nothing happens (because he failed).
    A couple other players take actions and the Wizard makes his Spellcraft check to realize that the Graveknight Marilith is just an illusion.
    "Just an illusion? Can an illusion do this?" She says as she uses her Telekinesis SLA to pick up a rack of 15 Longswords, which all promptly burst into flame because I decided to allow the Graveknight's Channel Destruction and the Marilith's innate Infuse Weapon to apply and flings 15 attacks at 2d6+1(physical) +4d6(fire). Granted only about half of them hit(8), but even then 16d6+8+32d6 adds up quickly. I think he had some minor fire resistance, but the average for that amount of dice is 176.
    The illusion is Project Image and you can cast and target spells as if you were the image. Mariliths in 3.5 and PF both have Project Image and Telekinesis at-will and can simply Greater Teleport to reset the fight anytime they want. Without Graveknight or in 3.5, the TK/Racks of Large Longswords is still 15 +23 to hit for 2d6/each attack with a decent chance to hit, since its only a couple points lower than their full bab attack.
    Oh, and she was 250' down the hole in the ground, and had placed 2 more blade barriers every 100 feet so if you just jumped in (or TKed into the hole) you would fall through 3 blade barriers. When they actually got to her, she immediately rolled a natural 1 on a dazing fireball turned to acid to get past her immunity to fire from graveknight, so 3 rounds of doing nothing. Anticlimactic.
    This story was worth it

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Kobold trapsmith. Go full Tucker’s. Even if you’re the only kobold in the party.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

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  26. - Top - End - #26
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    This story was worth it
    Agreed. BTW, @Firebug, how did the party ever find the Marilith?

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    Be xorns, have the entire place in an amf, no corridors that lead anywhere relevant, and mundane traps, especially if you can manually trigger deadfalls and such from total cover in a rock. Somewhere with noxious fumes as well, again volcanoish works, you should be able to earth glide around lava lakes.
    So, even if nothing ever goes anywhere, most adventurers can eventually go through every room, and map the place out.

    But make a true 3d maze, filled with twisting, organically-shaped corridors? Few beings can successfully map or even navigate such structures.

    As an added bonus, from Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, hallways are free.

    So, for 0 GP, you can build miles and miles of twisting passageways that branch and merge and double back on themselves.

    Enjoy!
    Last edited by Quertus; 2019-08-25 at 06:18 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorddenorstrus View Post
    Probably gestalt
    What? No! If you're defending a dungeon, you should be ordinary monsters. Like goblins! You each get 10 characters and have to defend against a typical party of over-powered, self-entitled special snowflakes blessed by the gods themselves to murder you merely to enhance their glory. Watch as your beloved characters die to single hits or are destroyed by accident as the leveled PC classes carelessly toss around eldritch magic so powerful it could make your entire village wealthy.
    That'll teach ya...
    Last edited by Yahzi Coyote; 2019-08-26 at 06:00 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    Alcore's Avatar

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    What i would find most enjoyable? Lich. Be the badass villain! Ham it up as much as you can. Make the heroes coke on your ham or your spells.



    If i wanted to ensure i win? A creature that can behave in a gasious manner or something low HD that can fit where the party can't. Why low HD? So i can take levels of sorcerer and cast bestow curse and blindness as soon as possible.

    Have a second "midget" sized dungeon wrapping around the medium sized one with plenty of holes/doors and vantage points to dog the heroes at every step.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Half Minotaur/Half Goliath

    Use a reach weapon (Can be up to huge because of powerful build)
    Dungeoncrasher variant fighter
    Pick up Powerful Charge and Greater Powerful charge
    Leap attack and Powerful Lunge
    Occasionally abuse your Massive grapple
    Power attack - Cleave - Great Cleave

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    Malphegor's Avatar

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    Default Re: Defending a dungeon, what would you play?

    Dungeon Lord from Dungeonscape.

    Basically, have you ever played Dungeon Keeper? Well, it's a class.

    You can now dimension door anywhere within your dungeon at will.

    All your allies get a constant bonus to their attack rolls whilst you're there.

    You can at will clairvoyance anywhere in the dungeon, and get an alarm spell effect when an intruder gets in.

    You gain leadership to fill it with minions.

    All you need to be is be one of the specific evil races, be a spellcaster or have SLA or SU abilities.
    never piss off people for who one of their main hobbies involves aggressive and thorough note-taking.

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