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    Default How is Bant different from Sultai?

    I saw a planeswalker made by a fan which was listed as:

    Core: Blue/Green
    Lost: White
    Currently: Blue/Green/Black

    This got me wondering: What is the difference between Bant and Sultai philosophy, and what could cause a switch from the former to the latter?
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    Default Re: How is Bant different from Sultai?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhentarim View Post
    I saw a planeswalker made by a fan which was listed as:

    Core: Blue/Green
    Lost: White
    Currently: Blue/Green/Black

    This got me wondering: What is the difference between Bant and Sultai philosophy, and what could cause a switch from the former to the latter?
    From the wiki, the Sultai admire and follow their dragon's aspect of ruthlessness and are primarily Black, with Green and Blue sub focus.

    Meanwhile "Bant is a haven of order, honor, and community" and "the society is well-ordered with a strong sense of right and wrong". They are primarily White, with Green and Blue sub focus.

    I think that philosophically, they're completely opposed (ruthlessness and focus on the individual vs selflessness and focus on the group), just that they tend to have the same methods (cultural order, personal might and other social constructs) to achieve it.

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    Default Re: How is Bant different from Sultai?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhentarim View Post
    I saw a planeswalker made by a fan which was listed as:

    Core: Blue/Green
    Lost: White
    Currently: Blue/Green/Black

    This got me wondering: What is the difference between Bant and Sultai philosophy, and what could cause a switch from the former to the latter?
    The actual Bant and Sultai philosophies do not emphasize UG as the core of their identities, so they may not be useful in understanding this particular planeswalker.
    I personally think it's easiest to think about this particular planeswalker's three-color philosophies by breaking them down to their two-color components.

    The planeswalker is primarily concerned with progress, a UG value.
    As a Bant planeswalker, they probably valued order (UW) and community (GW) as a means of achieving progress. They might frame progress in terms of enlightenment or the development of society.
    However, as a Sultai planeswalker, they probably turned instead to forbidden knowledge (UB) and exploiting the cycle of life and death (GB).

    GW's focus on community has adverse effects on evolution, as GW opposes individuality. Meanwhile, UW's focus on order can prevent adaptability due to its rigidness. While society becomes more sophisticated over time, no new ideas can develop.

    As the planeswalker values progress most of all, they may have become disillusioned with either of these white-aligned color combinations, believing that the philosophy they fostered in the name of progress is stagnant. They instead turn to GB and UB.

    GB is the color of life and death, and of survival. They possess the raw drive to adapt and overcome. While they may not be as collectively powerful, they can overcome a threat that GW could not by virtue of the most resilient and well-adapted members surviving.
    UB is the color of forbidden knowledge. Unlike UW, they do not restrict themselves to what is acceptable - they are fiercely ambitious, and will do anything for the sake of power.

    As such, were I designing such a character's change in philosophy, I would probably frame their views regarding progress shifting to value a more individualistic desire to overcome and adapt, with a greater focus on the grittier aspects of progress, such as survival.
    Last edited by GraySeaJones; 2019-08-22 at 09:04 AM.

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    Default Re: How is Bant different from Sultai?

    What springs to mind following GraySeaJones's excellent answer is an example from Alan Moore's Watchman.
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    Ozymandius likely started out as Bant. Knowledge, order, society, togetherness. The enemy of chaos, anarchy, and amorality.

    What he became was Sultai. Knowledge, order, society, at the cost of thousands of lives, constant fear, and at the direction of a mastermind.
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    Default Re: How is Bant different from Sultai?

    Quote Originally Posted by GraySeaJones View Post
    The actual Bant and Sultai philosophies do not emphasize UG as the core of their identities, so they may not be useful in understanding this particular planeswalker.
    I personally think it's easiest to think about this particular planeswalker's three-color philosophies by breaking them down to their two-color components.

    The planeswalker is primarily concerned with progress, a UG value.
    As a Bant planeswalker, they probably valued order (UW) and community (GW) as a means of achieving progress. They might frame progress in terms of enlightenment or the development of society.
    However, as a Sultai planeswalker, they probably turned instead to forbidden knowledge (UB) and exploiting the cycle of life and death (GB).

    GW's focus on community has adverse effects on evolution, as GW opposes individuality. Meanwhile, UW's focus on order can prevent adaptability due to its rigidness. While society becomes more sophisticated over time, no new ideas can develop.

    As the planeswalker values progress most of all, they may have become disillusioned with either of these white-aligned color combinations, believing that the philosophy they fostered in the name of progress is stagnant. They instead turn to GB and UB.

    GB is the color of life and death, and of survival. They possess the raw drive to adapt and overcome. While they may not be as collectively powerful, they can overcome a threat that GW could not by virtue of the most resilient and well-adapted members surviving.
    UB is the color of forbidden knowledge. Unlike UW, they do not restrict themselves to what is acceptable - they are fiercely ambitious, and will do anything for the sake of power.

    As such, were I designing such a character's change in philosophy, I would probably frame their views regarding progress shifting to value a more individualistic desire to overcome and adapt, with a greater focus on the grittier aspects of progress, such as survival.
    I really enjoyed this post.
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    Default Re: How is Bant different from Sultai?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Fixler View Post
    What springs to mind following GraySeaJones's excellent answer is an example from Alan Moore's Watchman.
    Spoiler: Spoiler from Watchman graphic novel
    Show

    Ozymandius likely started out as Bant. Knowledge, order, society, togetherness. The enemy of chaos, anarchy, and amorality.

    What he became was Sultai. Knowledge, order, society, at the cost of thousands of lives, constant fear, and at the direction of a mastermind.
    Spoiler
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    Not so much, actually.

    What he did denied millions of humans the chance to live their own lives, and he denied humanity at large the opportunity to evolve on its own, even if it resulted in a nuclear war. He decided humankind could no longer be left to its own devices, and that it was up to him to achieve order - at any cost.

    So yes, he did adopt Black. Black achieves its goals at any cost. But he didn't renounce White, on the contrary. White values - order, peace, working together - are at the core of what he hoped to achieve.

    What he took away was the ability of millions of human beings - and humankind at large - to evolve, to grow, to change, and to live lives of their own making. Live according to their own natures and impulses. All of that was replaced by artifice and deception.

    You know what color that is anathema to? Green. Green abhors treachery, deception, and the unnatural. Ozymandias didn't turn Sultai - he turned Esper. He had completely lost faith in humankind itself, and turned his back on it - even with regards to himself. It was not in his nature to become a mass murderer - he was a kind man who genuinely wanted to help. It was White idealism, Blue scheming, and Black amorality that turned him into what he is at the end.
    Last edited by Silfir; 2019-08-24 at 07:44 PM.
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    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How is Bant different from Sultai?

    Bant. Sultai.

    They share a lot, but at the end of the day the question is if you are working to get the boot off your own neck, or to put it on someone else's.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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