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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    We know that Belkar is getting less obnoxious and selfish about his Evil. I do not at all know he is getting less Evil.
    I'd argue he clearly has. IF I just had this book to go on, I wouldn't say he's anything worse then Chaotic Neutral. He's clearly improving, even if he still hasn't reached one/one millionth of redemption.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    He seems to understand the concept that he CAN change, and it will take some introspection. He also apologized for some of his specific inflicting of wrongs. But I agree that we haven't seen him actually put forth a serious effort at repentance. He seems to be sliding towards "less evil" but it's a slow slide rather than a dramatic rejection of evil.
    Ah, Halfling Baby Steps Are Very Small, also known as Belkar is on the Path to Redemption, He’s Just Moving Very Slowly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Ah, Halfling Baby Steps Are Very Small, also known as Belkar is on the Path to Redemption, He’s Just Moving Very Slowly.
    I think the problem with this kind of talk is the unspoken assumption that the path is a straight road to redemption. Even when people take into account that Belkar doesn't have much time left, the underlying assumption is that he'd be redeemed if he had time on his side. But in reality, Belkar has just taken a few steps away from the polar extreme of Evilness. None of the traits he has recently acquired are even rare among Evil characters, after all.

    So my opinion is that yes, Belkar is less Evil in absolute terms, and that does put him closer to being Neutral than he used to be, but that's a far cry from being close to Neutral, or even on the road to neutrality, except in the most general sense that would also apply e.g. to Redcloak's realization that hobgoblins are his people too. I imagine that's ultimately what rubs Peelee the wrong way.
    Last edited by hroțila; 2019-09-25 at 06:28 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    I think the problem with this kind of talk is the unspoken assumption that the path is a straight road to redemption. Even when people take into account that Belkar doesn't have much time left, the underlying assumption is that he'd be redeemed if he had time on his side. But in reality, Belkar has just taken a few steps away from the polar extreme of Evilness. None of the traits he has recently acquired are even rare among Evil characters, after all.

    So my opinion is that yes, Belkar is less Evil in absolute terms, and that does put him closer to being Neutral than he used to be, but that's a far cry from being close to Neutral, or even on the road to neutrality, except in the most general sense that would also apply e.g. to Redcloak's realization that hobgoblins are his people too. I imagine that's ultimately what rubs Peelee the wrong way.
    I would like to point out that you have to look at what is being said in that strip, Durkon is talking to Belkar about how Good is a slippery slope, you do one good thing and doing more starts to feel better, so you do more good, which makes you feel better, so you do more good, if you think that was just the Giant giving a philosophy on Good you are seriously misunderstanding it, Belkar has started to do more (slightly) Good things, he’s trekking upwards, and will be finding out that he likes it, Durkon has recognized that he’s moving upward a little bit, and so he tells Belkar that as you move up it can get easier (he’s also telling the audience this because it is still partly the Giant giving a philosophy on Good), and then when Belkar starts to like what he hears and puts it into Ultimate Extreme terms (because he’s still Evil), Durkon realizes that can help him understand it better and uses those terms, as Belkar moves a halfling baby step by apologizing about a minor act of Evil, he is still very far from Neutral, but Good is a slippery slope, he will find that after one of his halfling baby step he’s going to fall, and that slope will carry him towards, I doubt he’ll live to make it to Good but I doubt even more that he won’t live to make it to Neutral.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I would like to point out that you have to look at what is being said in that strip, Durkon is talking to Belkar about how Good is a slippery slope, you do one good thing and doing more starts to feel better, so you do more good, which makes you feel better, so you do more good, if you think that was just the Giant giving a philosophy on Good you are seriously misunderstanding it, Belkar has started to do more (slightly) Good things, he’s trekking upwards, and will be finding out that he likes it, Durkon has recognized that he’s moving upward a little bit, and so he tells Belkar that as you move up it can get easier (he’s also telling the audience this because it is still partly the Giant giving a philosophy on Good), and then when Belkar starts to like what he hears and puts it into Ultimate Extreme terms (because he’s still Evil), Durkon realizes that can help him understand it better and uses those terms, as Belkar moves a halfling baby step by apologizing about a minor act of Evil, he is still very far from Neutral, but Good is a slippery slope, he will find that after one of his halfling baby step he’s going to fall, and that slope will carry him towards, I doubt he’ll live to make it to Good but I doubt even more that he won’t live to make it to Neutral.
    None of that makes it inevitable, or easy. Durkon was trying to encourage Belkar, of course he'd focus on the positive feedback loop which I'm not denying is a thing. But the comic also gave us "Redemption is not for everyone", after all.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    None of that makes it inevitable, or easy. Durkon was trying to encourage Belkar, of course he'd focus on the positive feedback loop which I'm not denying is a thing. But the comic also gave us "Redemption is not for everyone", after all.
    It’s not going to be easy of course, I’m not saying it will be, but this comic is all about morality, it’s not going to go without a successful redemption ark, especially when one of the clearest statements about morality is that it feels Good to feel Good, which is a much better thing to focus on when it is said to the character in the middle of a redemption ark, and I would also much rather look at that comic to see what you must do:
    “True Redemption requires that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds. That you atone for the actions that caused the Twelve Gods to turn away from you. That you even acknowledge that you could, in fact, be wrong.”
    And well look at this, it seems to me that Belkar is in the midst of doing these things, on a small scale currently (because he’s Evil, and is taking halfling baby steps), but he is taking these steps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    I have yet to see Belkar admit to being wrong, but he is certainly somewhat conflicted internally (see his raging remarks as he tries to and eventually succeeds in getting through the anti life shell during the end of the vamp battle).
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I have yet to see Belkar admit to being wrong, but he is certainly somewhat conflicted internally (see his raging remarks as he tries to and eventually succeeds in getting through the anti life shell during the end of the vamp battle).
    I’d say his apology to Durkon counts as recognizing that he was wrong to hit him in the face with a palm tree, it also counts as seeking forgiveness but that’s because that the thing is much more specific to Miko (and others that don’t lie in the Good row who think that they do), because recognizing that he could be wrong goes hand in hand with seeking forgiveness and atoning for Belkar (and also those like Xykon or Tarquin if they went through a redemption ark).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelalex242 View Post
    As for what kills Belkar?

    Occam's Razor would suggest: the Snarl.

    Can't get True Rezzed if that kills you.
    Belkar doesn't have to be killed by the Snarl to not return.

    Roy has made it rather clear that he does not intend to resurrect Belkar. I don't think anyone else will want him to return, either.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Roy has made it rather clear that he does not intend to resurrect Belkar. I don't think anyone else will want him to return, either.
    Mr Scruffy would likely appreciate it. And Bloodfeast.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-09-25 at 10:30 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Clearly, a resurrected Miko, a revealed MITD, and Redcloak's niece will kill Belkar, but they will do it in order to give Elan a happy ending.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Vampires usually have trouble digesting or even enjoying non-blood food. We can't be sure that is the case in OotS, but it is not an unreasonable hypothesis. And the problem with immortality is that you can't retire, because you aren't getting any older, and thus at best you'd take sabbaticals.

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    Also, a 401K would definitely still be worthwhile for an ageless being. You can save until you're wealthy enough to live off your investments.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Mr Scruffy would likely appreciate it. And Bloodfeast.
    Sure, but they won't be able to get someone to resurrect Belkar.

    Even if you convinced Roy that Belkar was in the process of changing, he'd probably not want to risk it.

    If they started resurrecting people to give them a chance at redemption, Miko would be a likelier candidate.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    I'm out of crazy nonsense ideas to kill Belkar right now, since both Man-Go and potara fusion were absurd enough, but I'll comment on the "less evil" debate.

    Is Belkar Good now? Surely no.
    Is he remotely close to Good? Hel, no.
    Is he Neutral? Probably not.
    Is he less Evil? Probably yes, since his kilonazi count has dropped since encountering Roy and seems to be on a tendency to drop, at least in the graph shown.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Belkar doesn't have to be killed by the Snarl to not return.

    Roy has made it rather clear that he does not intend to resurrect Belkar. I don't think anyone else will want him to return, either.
    Durkon, the one actually capable of doing the resurrecting and who Belkar has already showed signs of turning over a new leaf to, might.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    I tend to think Durkon's team loyalty would have him resurrect Belkar if he could. He wouldn't just intentionally leave him dead. Which goes back to my vote for the Snarl. Then there's nothing kind hearted Durkon can do.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Sure, but they won't be able to get someone to resurrect Belkar.
    I think there is someone who would.
    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Durkon, the one actually capable of doing the resurrecting and who Belkar has already showed signs of turning over a new leaf to, might.
    And Hilgya might, depending on who asked her. (Elan, perhaps, who seems to get along with her).
    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    If they started resurrecting people to give them a chance at redemption, Miko would be a likelier candidate.
    That would be OK by me, but at this point I think she'd need a True Resurrection as I don't think her body parts survived the clean up after the taking of Azure City by the Goblins and Hobgoblins. And I think Rich has said TR isn't a feature in OoTS world, or maybe that he'd not use it as it is such a menace to narrative ... I think it's best to leave Miko in whatever afterlife she ended up in.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    I do not think this story is going to the direction of "Belkar's dead? Okay, screw him, let's move on", so, yes, something is going to have to make bringing him back impossible.

    Too many characters are having/have had characters arcs that would make that neither emotionally nor narratively satisfying.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-09-25 at 04:28 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Durkon, the one actually capable of doing the resurrecting and who Belkar has already showed signs of turning over a new leaf to, might.
    Which is part of the issue - which is why it seems like Belkar being knocked down and disintegrated seems like the most probable outcome if we disregard the Snarl. Undeadilyzing him wouldn't be something the Oracle enjoys nor something that honestly feels like it would have the right level of punch. Same goes for deification, which has another 50 problems. Overall, Belkar is probably going to die in a True Res scenario, or to the Snarl (other situations might occur, but I wouldn't know which ones). The finer points, like if its in the final battle or from a skirmish or what, are what we have lots more speculation about.
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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Ah, Halfling Baby Steps Are Very Small, also known as Belkar is on the Path to Redemption, He’s Just Moving Very Slowly.
    This reminded me of something, but its a silly hypothesis I came up with and not worth taking seriously.

    The title "Halfling Baby Steps Are Very Small" could be the title of a strip down the road where belker knocks up that woman from the thieves guild and his baby makes him change his mind on his ways, his methods and stops being evil "for his son" or whatever.

    Or he dies and refuses ressurection to avoid child support payments, because in death you can't take your wealth with you, but you don't need it in death, and they can't take your money if you don't have any.

    I always thought the "belker" who died in roys dream in that pyramid where they were all entranced was the belker the oracle was talking about. Theres holes in that theory, but a belker who dies in a dream sequence could technically still count, I guess. He tried several loop holes to get out of dying before, and he has 4th wall breaking powers, talking to the readers directly ala dead pool.

    Then theres the concept of belkers evil tendencies dying and "belker" as they knew him was no more and character growth induced belker has filled his shoes, and it was a metaphorical death, not a literal one.

    Of course, theres always the snarl eternal death route.

    Take the above with a grain of salt. I wasn't really serious and was just throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks. Have a good day everyone.
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    True res is mentioned to exist in the comic; when Roy's skeleton gets golemified they discuss needed a 17th level cleric to raise him without it and mention that they don't know if any exist. It seems likely that it's avoided by the fact that the only person involved in any of the story (and quite likely the only person in the world) with access to true res very decidedly does not control his team's finances and who does or doesn't get resurrected. And also currently doesn't have any particularly reason to be trying to do a true res.

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    Because he's too ashamed to face the main person he'd want to resurrect.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Due to this past arc for the Roy-Belkar relationship and the Durkon-Belkar Relationship, I imagine when Belkar dies Roy won't have the same attitude as he did in the Microcosm. They'll find a way.
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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gluteus_Maximus View Post
    Due to this past arc for the Roy-Belkar relationship and the Durkon-Belkar Relationship, I imagine when Belkar dies Roy won't have the same attitude as he did in the Microcosm. They'll find a way.
    ... Except we know they won't.
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  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gluteus_Maximus View Post
    Due to this past arc for the Roy-Belkar relationship and the Durkon-Belkar Relationship, I imagine when Belkar dies Roy won't have the same attitude as he did in the Microcosm. They'll find a way.
    To give him a little respect at his funeral rather than say blowing it off or doing some Perform (jig) checks, maybe. But bring him back? They will not.
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  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    I think there's a pretty decent chance that they won't bring Belkar back not because they won't want to, but because they won't be able to.
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  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    It's also just possible that Belkar will die before the climax of the story and that, in a moment of profound character growth (or at least growth in the field of "team spirit"), Roy will decide to bring Belkar back, out of a mixture of pragmatism and team solidarity, and perhaps partly because he expects Belkar to die permanently anyway before the end of the year.

    Then Belkar dies for good in the final battle, but the prior death and resurrection will have acted as a nice twist.
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  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Every team member has had their moment in the spotlight, except Belkar. He is now on a slow but steady route to redemption. This is going to be the subject of the next book. I'm predicting that Belkar will 'take one for the team' and die, just as Kraagor died. No coincidence ofcourse that the next gate is in Kraagor's tombe.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garwain View Post
    Every team member has had their moment in the spotlight, except Belkar. He is now on a slow but steady route to redemption. This is going to be the subject of the next book. I'm predicting that Belkar will 'take one for the team' and die, just as Kraagor died. No coincidence ofcourse that the next gate is in Kraagor's tombe.
    My thought as well.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garwain View Post
    Every team member has had their moment in the spotlight, except Belkar. He is now on a slow but steady route to redemption. This is going to be the subject of the next book. I'm predicting that Belkar will 'take one for the team' and die, just as Kraagor died. No coincidence ofcourse that the next gate is in Kraagor's tombe.
    How did Kraagor die?
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    Default Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    How did Kraagor die?
    The crayon story of Soon suggests he died as the spell was cast to seal the last gate - and it also seemed to suggest that it was a case of perceived "friendly fire" by Soon. But - we never saw what exactly happened.
    Last edited by jwhouk; 2019-10-09 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Added the link to the crayons
    "Character is what you are in the dark." - D.L. Moody
    Life's too short to be ashamed of how you were born.

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