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Thread: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
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2019-10-09, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
My read is that Dorukan's and Lirian's spell sucked him into the Rift as reality folded to close it by making the Gate.
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2019-10-09, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
I have the weird idea that Kraagor will be found wearing sunglasses and a swim suit while living on a beach in that mostly water/ocean filled world that Laurin saw through the gate in the Desert in BRiTF. He'll be sipping a rum based drink, and complaining that you can't get a decent mug of beer on this world ... ... dwarves live long enough for this to be possible.
Belkar's infamous "maybe someone's been yanking everybone's chain" observation keeps cropping up as I ponder this. Maybe that's Rich dropping a big hint ...
What Blackwing saw included a land mass
Therefore, that world has a beach somewhere.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-10-09 at 01:13 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2019-10-09, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
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2019-10-10, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-10-15, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
My own personal theory on this is Belkar chooses his death. Maybe it's because in some major battle to come, the IFCC calls V to keep them out of the fight, and Belkar, knowing the wizard will be more needed than he is, decides to go down there and rescue his frenemy the only way he knows how: with violence! Of course, he has to die to get down to the Hells, so he tells old Durkon to look after Mr. Scruffy and makes sure he dies somehow. He fights his way through the lower planes, rescues V, and decides not to come back, on account of the fact that he's having the time of his afterlife killing every demon and devil he meets. I think that would be a nice ending for him, after a fashion.
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2019-10-15, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-15, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-10-15, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
To be fair, we're referring to a universe where death can be regularly, if temporarily, thwarted by a a mid-level Cleric and a satchel of crushed-up carbon. And, for that matter, i'm reasonably certain Belkar's now one of, if not the, highest-level Ranger in the world. But I get your point.
Last edited by woweedd; 2019-10-15 at 01:09 PM.
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2019-10-15, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
First time poster. Been reading OOTS for the last few years, now have all the books. Anyway, I've been lurking on the forums for a while, and it seems that everyone assumes that Oracle must be right about Belkar's immident demise. So I have my own theory:
Belkar is not going to die (permanently) until much later, perhaps even of old age. Definitely not by the end of the (in-comic) year. We have been teased with his death a few times already (getting drained by Durkon*, dominated and made to jump off Mechane by Durkon*, pushed off the mountain by Durkon* and some cases not instigated by Durkon* as well). Storytelling demands that we'll probably get a few more in the same vein. Maybe he'll even die (as in HP to -10), but not *permanently*.
It's also not going to be a "technical" loophole (becoming undead or something along those lines).
No, the Oracle is going to be wrong on this one, plain and simple.
This draws back to the #567, where Belkar gives feedback on the prophecy. Belkar's original did not come true until Belkar made it true (by killing Oracle).
Essentially: Belkar's CHOICE made him to self-fulfill the prophecy (and his curse activated and all that jazz). He could have simply decided NOT to kill the Oracle and instead gone "nyah-nyah-nyah" and insisted his money back. But that was Belkar before recent...changes.
So, we will see Belkar run into situation where he has to again make some big Choice. And this time he takes some other option than the one leading to his death (fulfilling the prophecy). It might even a Good vs Evil thing, such as running away vs. doing a heroic sacrifice. Of course we might get some further dramatics (it's supposed to be a story after all), such as him clearly appearing to be dead and not resurrectable (but then it turns out that Blackwing actually nabbed a piece of him for the spell or something). Meaning that the option that *should* kill him will actually end up sparing his life, while the running away will make rocks fall and everybody dies.
Or, well, the situation in #567 might even be completely reversed, with Oracle (with some pushing by Tiamat) coming to personally make sure the death prediction becomes true...
Reason why I've come to this conclusion? Mostly meta. The entire OOtS has been giving out pretty consistent message: Choices matter, even if prophecies and predictions and destinies are real things. Eugene's Blood Oath. Haley's choice to go out with Elan (Nale in disguise, but she didn't know that). Elan's speculation on would Nale have been the hero and he the jerk, and his choices about sparing Nale and letting Tarquin fall of Mechane. Durkon's whole life (as seen across book #6). Roy's regrets about abandoning Elan to bandits. Vaarsuvius' own choices with the dragon, and regrets, and atonement.
You'll note that the above list does not include Belkar. He hasn't yet had to make a *truly* hard choice - but it's going to come up, and it's going to keep him alive despite whatever Oracle might have thought.
(If you want to explain this mechanically, well, Oracle is channeling Tiamat, and even Tiamat doesn't know everything.).
Bottom line is that I simply do not think that we are going to see a classic "Redemption equals death" plot with regards to Belkar. Especially if it has been given years in advance.
Oracle will be wrong (and might try to weasel out claiming that he was accurate, after all, Belkar died during Girard's illusion and didn't come back).Last edited by Zarhan; 2019-10-15 at 01:44 PM.
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2019-10-15, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
I don't think that will happen, but if it does, I'm guessing the Oracle get out of it by claiming the old Evil Belkar died when he made that Choice, and the new Good halfling is metaphorically a whole new guy.
Like I said, I doubt that will happen though because the Oracle has never been wrong before, AND he was as clear as he could be that it wasn't going to be a metaphorical death."Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2019-10-15, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
Well, "Belkar won't die" predictions are fairly frequent, but fair dues here, yours is an original one (to me, at least). I don't buy into it, mainly because I don't see the point of having an Oracle if the Oracle can be wrong. For Belkar specifically, the Oracle could have refunded his money and not died, or could have just said "no" and not had to worry about it to begin with, both of which would have been infinitely preferable to dying. Neither of those happened. The Oracle knew Belkar would kill him for being a jerk to him. The Oracle still chose to be a jerk to Belkar. Just because characters can make choices doesn't mean that the Oracle doesn't know what those choices will be. Belkar can still make the choices that lead to his death, and the Oracle would still know about them. If Belkar would end up making different choices, the Oracle would know about them instead.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2019-10-15, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
The Oracle's predictions haven't been wrong yet. If his powers were faible to individual choice, he would have screwed up at some point, but he hasn't. He didn't, for instance, see any future where V never attained ultimate arcane power, or a world where V's method of attainment did not involve saying the right words at the right time to the right person for all the wrong reasons, nor did he see a future where Haley didn't get her speech back, a future where Elan's story doesn't end happily, a future where a future where Belkar didn't kill one of Roy, Miko, Miko's horse, V, or him, ETC.
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2019-10-15, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
While I don't have a coherent scenario, I like to imagine his death won't be a selfless act at all, but through his actions he will make a substantial positive impact. He will do something violent and selfish (that will perhaps reaffirm his alignment) of course. Yet it will cause others to contemplate how they perceived him. It would be interesting if he manages to completely twist the outcome in a moment of tactlessness. I can almost hear him saying "this isn't fair".
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2019-10-27, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
I've got two theories on this.
The first is that Belkar pulls a Kraagor and dies to the snarl while sacrificing himself for a team mate as the snarl busts loose from its prison at the last second before the gods finally seal it away for good.
The second (the one I am personally hoping for) is that with all of the changes that Belkar has been going through at the end of the story he finally sees the error of his ways and takes a turn for the neutral (cause honestly he will never be "good") and decides that his old self is dead, he changes his name and leads a much less destructive life, perhaps even "helping" (IE: for pay) people by going after some of the more evil creatures left in the world.
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2019-10-27, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-10-28, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-28, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-10-28, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-28, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
Sorry, but I disagree. Belkar had his moment of glory in DStP. He is the one who undergoes the changes needed to rescue the order from completely falling out.
In that moment, Haley is facing the Thieves Guild with Celia, Roy is dead, Durkon and Elan are sitting on their thumbs, and V is going nuts. He is the first one to change for the rest of the order to follow.
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2019-10-28, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
I have a running theory that all the books after DCF are meant as "focused" around a specific Order member:
. NCFTPB is Roy's book, as he sees his pseudo-reflection in Miko, begins to think of his non-Durkon companions as actual friends/comrades rather than just "the incompetent bunch of yahoos i'm stuck with", and learns to be a true leader to his party, someone who can earn their loyalty and be loyal in return.
. WAXP is Haley's book, since a large part of the plot centers on her internal conflict vis-a-vis getting her speech back.
. DSTP is V's book: They make a deal with fiends, commit genocide, get force-fed humble pie, and overall learn where their eternal greed for arcane power has led them: nowhere good.
. BRITF is Elan's book: he meets his father, sees how his narrative fixation can hurt people, and comes away hypotheically-wiser.
. UD is Durkon's book: I shouldn't have to explain this one.
. That leaves one book and one Order member: it's Belkar's time to shine.Last edited by woweedd; 2019-10-28 at 12:44 PM.
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2019-10-28, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
You found the secret message! Don't forget to edit the wiki!
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2019-10-28, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-28, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
And the Oracle, who dislikes humanoids in general and hates Belkar in particular, revels in revealing that Belkar will get a change of heart because....?
When you've already achieved a conclusion and are trying to find evidence to support that conclusion, then you can twist things however you want, regardless of what the evidence is.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-10-28, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
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2019-10-28, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2019-10-28, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-28 at 10:54 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-10-28, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-28, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
Roy hasn't told him yet. Presumably the Oracle would look to see if he would.
Imean, that's assuming the Oracle wouldn't look to see if Belkar would even feel that in the first place, and even then he'd get at most less than a year's worth of Belkar feeling kinda sorta weird? The Oracle would really stink in this hypothetical.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-10-28, 11:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-29, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What's Going To Kill Belkar?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2