What's Going To Kill Belkar?

[Quizatzhaderac]

Silly question: do we have a good reason to think any of the outer planes are incapable of supporting the existence of cake?

I'm kind of thinking that dying isn't actually that big of an impediment to having cakes on your birthday.

[Fyraltari]

Silly question: do we have a good reason to think any of the outer planes are incapable of supporting the existence of cake?

I'm kind of thinking that dying isn't actually that big of an impediment to having cakes on your birthday.

How often do you think the damned get cake in the Abyss ?

[Peelee]

How often do you think the damned get cake in the Abyss ?

To be fair, even if he gets to have birthday cake, I doubt he would be able to (or want to) savor it, given the source.

[The MunchKING]

How often do you think the damned get cake in the Abyss ?

The other answer is if it's the evil version of Celestia, he'll probably get tortured so much he loses track of all passage of time, and forgets when his birthday is, let alone that it is that day in the mortal world.

[F.Harr]

Heroism! It'll be SO embarasing!

[Quizatzhaderac]

How often do you think the damned get cake in the Abyss ?

There are more kinds of cake than fire, so a sufficiently random environment should have more cake than fire. Given that the plane is chaotic and described as containing fire, we can conclude it most likely contains cake as well.

[KorvinStarmast]

There are more kinds of cake than fire, so a sufficiently random environment should have more cake than fire. Given that the plane is chaotic and described as containing fire, we can conclude it most likely contains cake as well.

I had forgotten how often Clevinger has made me laugh over the years ... thanks.

[Dion]

I bet he’s killed by a train, because foreshadowing.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I bet he’s killed by a train, because foreshadowing.

I bet that he's killed by four shadowdancers, because foreshadowing.

[thekingofb]

Another thing is, Vampires convert through grapple and blood drain. I am guessing Belkar, who uses light weapons, would be hard to pin down, and can keep fighting while grappled, would off himself over becoming someone else's puppet.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Another thing is, Vampires convert through grapple and blood drain. I am guessing Belkar, who uses light weapons, would be hard to pin down, and can keep fighting while grappled, would off himself over becoming someone else's puppet.

We had this scene already, dominating gaze worked pretty well.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Rather than vampires converting, I wonder if, maybe, Belkar might be the one that the IFCC have targeted as their desired "vessel". He is one of the most powerful combatants in the world by now, and he's more vulnerable as he is or recently was heavily drunk, and Roy definitely still is.

Emptying out a vessel would certainly achieve the "death", "not long for this world", "take their last breath ever", etc. stuff and, amusingly, also sorta-satisfy the people who think he will ascend to godhood.

Or perhaps he gets transformed into some other sort of being that doesn't breathe or savor anything -- a revenant perhaps? Or has his personality transferred into a living construct?

All I know is that the Oracle has proven himself to be a master of weasel-wording. And the only form of the prophecy he delivered in glowy-hovering-divine-power-backed-mode was the last iteration about "take his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year". For that to be meaningful in any way, mundane speech ("not long for this world", "savor next birthday cake", etc.) must then be secondary.

[KorvinStarmast]

Rather than vampires converting, I wonder if, maybe, Belkar might be the one that the IFCC have targeted as their desired "vessel". He is one of the most powerful combatants in the world by now, and he's more vulnerable as he is or recently was heavily drunk, and Roy definitely still is.

Belkar knows who Sabine is. Mr Scruffy would likely alert him since Mr Scruffy also knows who she is.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Belkar knows who Sabine is. Mr Scruffy would likely alert him since Mr Scruffy also knows who she is.

You don't think a succubus could neutralize a cat and then dominate someone with a terrible Will save?

I was spitballing anyways. I think their "vessel" is probably someone else.

[Rrmcklin]

Rather than vampires converting, I wonder if, maybe, Belkar might be the one that the IFCC have targeted as their desired "vessel". He is one of the most powerful combatants in the world by now, and he's more vulnerable as he is or recently was heavily drunk, and Roy definitely still is.

Emptying out a vessel would certainly achieve the "death", "not long for this world", "take their last breath ever", etc. stuff and, amusingly, also sorta-satisfy the people who think he will ascend to godhood.

Or perhaps he gets transformed into some other sort of being that doesn't breathe or savor anything -- a revenant perhaps? Or has his personality transferred into a living construct?

All I know is that the Oracle has proven himself to be a master of weasel-wording. And the only form of the prophecy he delivered in glowy-hovering-divine-power-backed-mode was the last iteration about "take his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year". For that to be meaningful in any way, mundane speech ("not long for this world", "savor next birthday cake", etc.) must then be secondary.

The Oracle weasel-words because he's a jerk who doesn't like (usually) to give straight answers. But the thing about that is it that he also hates Belkar and would be very satisfied with his death. You need to give an adequate explanation for why he would make a bunch of statements implying Belkar's death, something we know he'd look forward to, but would actually have a reason for something else.

[Peelee]

And the only form of the prophecy he delivered in glowy-hovering-divine-power-backed-mode was the last iteration about "take his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year". For that to be meaningful in any way, mundane speech ("not long for this world", "savor next birthday cake", etc.) must then be secondary.

False; the glowiy-hovering mode is meaningful in that it is the only thing allowed yp bypass the memory chaem unaltered. Mundane speech is not secondary, it is simply caught in the memory charm.

[KorvinStarmast]

You don't think a succubus could neutralize a cat and then dominate someone with a terrible Will save?

Belkar took steps to boost his will save a bit with that amulet he got in gnome town. Granted, it's not immunity, but it changes the odds.

Sabine will likely underestimate Mister Scruffy. ;)

I know enough Morse code to realize that you prepared explosive rules.
But I had to dig hard into long term memory.

[Kelenius]

While it's true that the Oracle hates Belkar... if you assume that Belkar is not, in fact, going to die, then it makes sense why the Oracle is being dodgy with the words. He says:

• "Because I have an unfortunate tendency to ramble on a bit, and if I happen to slip that, say, the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA, I don't want it to influence anything."
• "Well, I'm just thinking he should savor his next birthday cake. 'Nuff said."
• "At any rate, your pal isn't long for this world, so I saw no reason not to have my fun where I could."
• (Making a prophecy) "Belkar will draw his last breath—ever—before the end of the year."

Since he hates Belkar, if he was going to die, why wouldn't the Oracle just say "Belkar is going to die"? Instead, he just implies it. It's just as possible that Belkar is not going to die, but the Oracle makes it sound like he is - because he hates him. Furthermore, we don't even know how accurate his non-prophecy statements are, and whether or no he's telling the truth. He gets caught by the party when he's about to take a bath, after all - this would mean that either he didn't see them coming (which questions his accuracy) or he's lying to them about it (which questions truthfulness).

[Rrmcklin]

While it's true that the Oracle hates Belkar... if you assume that Belkar is not, in fact, going to die, then it makes sense why the Oracle is being dodgy with the words. He says:

• "Because I have an unfortunate tendency to ramble on a bit, and if I happen to slip that, say, the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA, I don't want it to influence anything."
• "Well, I'm just thinking he should savor his next birthday cake. 'Nuff said."
• "At any rate, your pal isn't long for this world, so I saw no reason not to have my fun where I could."
• (Making a prophecy) "Belkar will draw his last breath—ever—before the end of the year."

Since he hates Belkar, if he was going to die, why wouldn't the Oracle just say "Belkar is going to die"? Instead, he just implies it. It's just as possible that Belkar is not going to die, but the Oracle makes it sound like he is - because he hates him. Furthermore, we don't even know how accurate his non-prophecy statements are, and whether or no he's telling the truth. He gets caught by the party when he's about to take a bath, after all - this would mean that either he didn't see them coming (which questions his accuracy) or he's lying to them about it (which questions truthfulness).

Except who is doing that for? Belkar doesn't know any of this, he doesn't remember any of the Oracle's snide remarks, and Roy hasn't told Belkar about this prophecy. That is not a meaningful jab at Belkar in any way.

The Oracle being able to be surprised by things doesn't not inherently imply either of those things: his power can be completely 100% accurate, that doesn't mean he's using it constantly to see literally everything. I don't know why you'd assume he would be doing that, actually.

[Kelenius]

Except who is doing that for? Belkar doesn't know any of this, he doesn't remember any of the Oracle's snide remarks, and Roy hasn't told Belkar about this prophecy. That is not a meaningful jab at Belkar in any way.

For the viewers? For Roy? Why would he say anything at all then?

The Oracle being able to be surprised by things doesn't not inherently imply either of those things: his power can be completely 100% accurate, that doesn't mean he's using it constantly to see literally everything. I don't know why you'd assume he would be doing that, actually.

Yes, exactly, it means that not everything Oracle says is accurate/true. He could be wrong, misleading or even making large chunks of it up completely.

[Rrmcklin]

For the viewers? For Roy? Why would he say anything at all then?



Yes, exactly, it means that not everything Oracle says is accurate/true. He could be wrong, misleading or even making large chunks of it up completely.

Because he's a jerk that enjoys it. But making Belkar think something that's not going to happen to annoy/terrify him makes absolutely no sense when he knows that Belkar won't remember. But if you want a meta, yes, for the viewers. How else are we going to know that Belkar is going to die in advance, as Rich wanted us to know, unless he tells us?

And, no, that's not what that means at all. Saying the Oracle is not always using his power, does not invalidate that power always being accurate. Nor does it imply he's ever lied about the things he has said.

You're grasping straws here.

[Kelenius]

Because he's a jerk that enjoys it. But making Belkar think something that's not going to happen to annoy/terrify him makes absolutely no sense when he knows that Belkar won't remember.

The same logic could be applied to the question, why is he talking about Belkar's death at all?

But if you want a meta, yes, for the viewers. How else are we going to know that Belkar is going to die in advance, as Rich wanted us to know, unless he tells us?

The Oracle actually addresses the readers directly.

And, no, that's not what that means at all. Saying the Oracle is not always using his power, does not invalidate that power always being accurate. Nor does it imply he's ever lied about the things he has said.

But that's the thing - the only prediction he makes when using his power is the one where he says that Belkar will draw his last breath soon. The rest of it is him talking normally, which could be accurate, could be inaccurate, and could be lies - just like him talking about his plans for a bath.

[Peelee]

For the viewers?

If its not true, then it's a pretty senseless thing to say to the viewers.

But that's the thing - the only prediction he makes when using his power is the one where he says that Belkar will draw his last breath soon. The rest of it is him talking normally, which could be accurate, could be inaccurate, and could be lies - just like him talking about his plans for a bath.

There is no indication that anything he says in normal voice is a lie or inaccurate. Do you doubt he was going to take a bath?

[Kelenius]

If its not true, then it's a pretty senseless thing to say to the viewers.

That depends on his understanding of the status of the reader of the comic and his own status of the comic character, and goes into meta territory. And from the meta perspective, he's a very unreliable oracle character that gives very vague or useless prophecies. Him predicting Belkar's death doesn't seem to have any effect on the plot. Aside from Roy mentioning it a few times (?) I don't recall anyone referencing it or being affected by it. So, if the message is only intended for the viewers, then it could still be either an actual prediction that comes true as expected, or it could be a subversion where it comes true not as expected.

There is no indication that anything he says in normal voice is a lie or inaccurate. Do you doubt he was going to take a bath?

Yes, actually, but there's more to it than that. Here's what you get if you take everything he says at the face value

• He didn't know the party is going to visit him and they interrupted his bath time.
• But when they arrive, he already knows that Belkar will die soon.
• He later tries to convince Belkar that his prophecy has already come true.
• However, right after that we see that he knew he'd be killed.
• He knew in advance that Roy is going to bother him, and had a wand of Dismissal on him.
• He also tells Roy that he'll lose memory after passing through the memory charm, which didn't happen, because he used Dismissal.

These are contradictory, so at least in some of them the Oracle has to be wrong or lying.

[brian 333]

[*]He didn't know the party is going to visit him and they interrupted his bath time.

He may have relaxed in the tub and lost track of time. He didn't seem to have any clocks around. Also, he may have forseen the interruption of his bath and be as incapable as anyone else to avoid his own prophesies. Oh, right. We saw that when Belkar killed him.

[*]But when they arrive, he already knows that Belkar will die soon.

Yup.

[*]He later tries to convince Belkar that his prophecy has already come true.

And failed to avoid his own predictedd death, which is very obviously what he was trying to do.

[*]However, right after that we see that he knew he'd be killed.

Yup, just as he predicted.

[*]He knew in advance that Roy is going to bother him, and had a wand of Dismissal on him.

Yet another accurate prediction.

[*]He also tells Roy that he'll lose memory after passing through the memory charm, which didn't happen, because he used Dismissal.

And he didn't say that as a prediction, so according to earlier logic it wasn't a prediction.

No one has said that The Oracle is omniscient, even about his own life. It may be that he assumed the memory charm would work even if he dismissed Roy and he never checked, or it may be that undead are immune to charm type magic, (which they are,) and Roy, being a spirit of a dead guy on the Material plane qualified him as undead.

These are contradictory, so at least in some of them the Oracle has to be wrong or lying.

While your interpretation of them makes them appear contradictory, they are not when taken at face value, as presented in the comic. So, the question is, when, in this comic, has the author established a pattern of subverting what he has presented as fact?

Never.

The prophecy that Belkar perma-dies is intact. And I look forward to seeing how it is accomplished.

My quatloos are on, "Death by Snarl during heroic self-sacrifice for the greater good," with a side bet that it is Durkon he directly saves.

[Peelee]

That depends on his understanding of the status of the reader of the comic and his own status of the comic character, and goes into meta territory. And from the meta perspective, he's a very unreliable oracle character

[citation needed]

Yes, actually, but there's more to it than that. Here's what you get if you take everything he says at the face value

• He didn't know the party is going to visit him and they interrupted his bath time.

He may well know and chooses to take the bath anyway for a joke. It is a self-aware parody, after all, and characters do know the value of jokes. Conversely, he may just check the days when people will come without bothering to check the times. The oracle is not omniscient, he just looks into the future on certain things (such as when he will die next). For example, he knew that Ghost Roy would refuse to leave because he looked into that future, but he did not bother to think about whether banishing him would still trigger the memory charm. Any claims that the Oracle must know things are predicated on him being omniscient, or on him making no mistakes, both of which are poor and unfounded assumptions.

• But when they arrive, he already knows that Belkar will die soon.

He checks on people who come, as evidenced by the jokes about their credit score, as well as him being gone when Xykon arrives and him knowing the ABD is coming. He possibly checks on how dangerous they are to him, which would trigger him being gone when Xykon arrives, as well as his resentment against Belkar.

• He later tries to convince Belkar that his prophecy has already come true.

Which is what gets Belkar to stab him, fulfilling the prophecy. The Oracle openly admits he knew it would not work, and the city he set up shows he knew exactly what would happen.

• However, right after that we see that he knew he'd be killed.

See above. The Oracle acting in a way that fulfills the prophecy is not a mark against the prophecy.

• He knew in advance that Roy is going to bother him, and had a wand of Dismissal on him.
• He also tells Roy that he'll lose memory after passing through the memory charm, which didn't happen, because he used Dismissal.

The Oracle is not omniscient nor infallible. Stop assuming he is and you will have far fewer objections.

These are contradictory, so at least in some of them the Oracle has to be wrong or lying.

As demonstrated, none are contradictory, none show the Oracle to be lying when foretelling the future (the only one which can be argued for lying would be the excuses to Belkar, which again are explicitly what causes Belkar to kill him, and thus fulfills the prophecy). Also, the Oracle can absolutely be wrong, just not in his prophecies. Given that he has said multiple times in multiple ways that Belkar will bite it, in addition to an "on-the-record" prophecy that Belkar will bite it, theorizing that Belkar will not in fact bite it because the Oracle doesn't know what he's talking about seems.... odd, to say the least.

[Rrmcklin]

The Oracle isn't infallible and the Oracle's powers are never wrong are only contradictory if you are assuming that he uses his powers, constantly, to foresee literally everything that is going to happen. As we have no indication that he does that, it's not a contradiction.

It also seems common to equate the Oracle's helpfulness with his accuracy, when those are very distinct things. The Oracle is very obviously intentionally unhelpful, but there's every indication that he sees things exactly as they happen when he looks - that doesn't mean he has to tell the characters (and by extension, us, the audience) what will happen because it would suck for the story.

Also, going back specifically to the prophecy of who the Belkar would kill (or, in his words, whose death he would be responsible for) I am still bewildered that a number of people didn't understand what was going on there, even when it was all but spelled out - the Oracle knew that Belkar would kill him, futilely tried to avoid it anyway, and set up things so that Belkar would get some comeuppance for it and he could be revived. It was perfectly clear.

That Belkar made the prophecy come true himself isn't somehow a strike against the Oracle being accurate because all of the prophecies come true due to the actions of the people asking. And, for Belkar specifically, when he's asking if he's going to kill someone, he kind of has to actively do it for it come true. This is very straightforward.

[Kelenius]

He may have relaxed in the tub and lost track of time. He didn't seem to have any clocks around. Also, he may have forseen the interruption of his bath and be as incapable as anyone else to avoid his own prophesies. Oh, right. We saw that when Belkar killed him.

He was about to take a bath. They didn't walk in on him bathing.

-snip-
No one has said that The Oracle is omniscient, even about his own life. It may be that he assumed the memory charm would work even if he dismissed Roy and he never checked, or it may be that undead are immune to charm type magic, (which they are,) and Roy, being a spirit of a dead guy on the Material plane qualified him as undead.

He may well know and chooses to take the bath anyway for a joke. -snip- Any claims that the Oracle must know things are predicated on him being omniscient, or on him making no mistakes, both of which are poor and unfounded assumptions.

I'm not saying that people are assuming that he's omniscient; I am saying that not everything he says is accurate, and thus his predictions of Belkar's death also might be.

While your interpretation of them makes them appear contradictory, they are not when taken at face value, as presented in the comic.

I said that they are contradictory if you take them at the face value. Which means that they are to not be taken at the face value. Just like his predictions of Belkar's death could be.

So, the question is, when, in this comic, has the author established a pattern of subverting what he has presented as fact?

[citation needed]

Every other prediction the Oracle has made? None of them received straightforward, useful answers. There's always some twist. Durkon's is probably the most notable: he was told he'd return "posthumously", which, if you don't expect a tricky answer, would mean "you will die and your body will be sent there", not "you will be turned into a vampire and the vampire will get back".

---

In short; it's possible that this prediction will be different, and it will happen in the way the Oracle is implying. But it's also possible that the Oracle is foreseeing a different event, and twists his prophecies to make it seem like Belkar is going to die, because he hates Belkar. And notably, he avoids giving a straight answer about it. This is the only point I am making.

[Fyraltari]

Haley, Roy (the second and third time around), Eugene and Mama Dragon received the most useful answer possible to the question they asked. And debatably so did V and Belkar.

Durkon was the only one who received a ‘twisty’ prophecy.

Meanwhile ain’t nobody proposed a way for Belkar to fulfill the prophecies without dying even in a ‘twisty’ way.

[RatElemental]

Meanwhile ain’t nobody proposed a way for Belkar to fulfill the prophecies without dying even in a ‘twisty’ way.

He gets hit by flesh to stone and left as a statue? Technically petrified creatures are still alive under 3.5 rules.