What's Going To Kill Belkar?

[Emanick]

He gets hit by flesh to stone and left as a statue? Technically petrified creatures are still alive under 3.5 rules.

As long as it happens on another plane, that works.

[Dion]

Honest answer: I don’t know.

But if I were going to bet, I’d join the people who have suggested he’ll die much like Kraagor did: He’ll sacrifice himself to save the world.

[KorvinStarmast]

Honest answer: I don’t know.

But if I were going to bet, I’d join the people who have suggested he’ll die much like Kraagor did: He’ll sacrifice himself to save the world.

And him doing that will be linked to Durkon's sacrifice in Book 5. Belkar's been fighting that but it gets to him over time.
1. the dialogue with Roy in 880 and 881,
2. he didn't blame me
2. The outrage at his feelings changing as he goes to spike Durkula, how dare you make me think about things, durkon!" and "how could you not think about how your selflessness would affect me?"

And here's the fun part. Belkar saves the world through that sacrifice, and over time his name gets to be associated as the one with the legends of how the world was saved.

Myths and legends can be based on half truths, or partial narratives, yes?

The narrative becomes, in universe, not that the Order of the Stick saved the world but the stories are told of how Bellar Bitterleaf and his band of heroes went to the North Pole and fought horrific evil and monsters and saved the world.

And there sits Roy Greenhild, grinding his teeth but at least Eugene gets into Celestia. Also, Roy's idea of "keeping Belkar pointed at the bad guys" pays off in a way that even he did not expect.


Haley and Elan live happily ever after.

V goes off to try and make restitution for Familicide ...

And Durkon goes home.

[Zyvlyn]

Here's my theory:

We are going to find out that containing the rifts requires a sacrifice of some sort. Soon was supposed to be the one to sacrifice himself, but he backed out at the last second, forcing Kraagor to be the one to sacrifice himself instead.

This is why Girard says "It should have been you who died in that rift you cowardly son of a bitch."

Belkar will complete his character arc by throwing himself into the rift to allow it to be closed, pushing the first character to choose to make the sacrifice (probably Roy, but I could see Durkon or even V doing it) out of the way.

[Peelee]

I'm not saying that people are assuming that he's omniscient; I am saying that not everything he says is accurate, and thus his predictions of Belkar's death also might be.

What is the point of an Oracle if the oracle's predictions are inaccurate?

Also, what prediction has the Oracle made so far which has been inaccurate? Not Roy with the memory charm; he said that passing through the memory charm would wipe his memory (a true statement), and he predicted that Roy would not leave on his own volition (an accurate prediction), but failed to realize that the method he chose would bypass the memory charm (not an inaccurate prediction at all, since he didn't predict whether or not Roy would remember, he just made a mistake choosing the method to ditch Roy).

[Kelenius]

What is the point of an Oracle if the oracle's predictions are inaccurate?

Also, what prediction has the Oracle made so far which has been inaccurate? Not Roy with the memory charm; he said that passing through the memory charm would wipe his memory (a true statement), and he predicted that Roy would not leave on his own volition (an accurate prediction), but failed to realize that the method he chose would bypass the memory charm (not an inaccurate prediction at all, since he didn't predict whether or not Roy would remember, he just made a mistake choosing the method to ditch Roy).

Perhaps "inaccurate" is not the right word. "Misleading"? The point is, he never says directly that Belkar is going to die. He implies it. And he has a tendency to phrase his prophecies in such a way that they are technically correct but imply something else or are just useless. Which leads me to believe that it is possible that he is seeing something other than death for Belkar, but makes it sound like he's going to die because he hates him.

[Dion]

Which leads me to believe that it is possible that he is seeing something other than death for Belkar, but makes it sound like he's going to die because he hates him.

True. Belkar might polymorph into a merman with gills and not lungs, and spend the rest of his life swimming around on the snarl planet. And the snarl planet might not have a sun, so there are no years, so he won’t have birthdays.

Or, Belkar might die.

[woweedd]

What is the point of an Oracle if the oracle's predictions are inaccurate?

Also, what prediction has the Oracle made so far which has been inaccurate? Not Roy with the memory charm; he said that passing through the memory charm would wipe his memory (a true statement), and he predicted that Roy would not leave on his own volition (an accurate prediction), but failed to realize that the method he chose would bypass the memory charm (not an inaccurate prediction at all, since he didn't predict whether or not Roy would remember, he just made a mistake choosing the method to ditch Roy).

Actually...Was that a mistake? I tend to headcanon that The Oracle KNEW Roy would remember, and did so intentionally: If Roy knows Belkar killed The Oracle, something which he seems to view as the last straw, such that he, like Haley, probably would have finally kicked Belkar to the curb, had he not been told that fate was gonna take care of this one...He might end up being just the slightest bit more cavalier with Belkar's life, in a way that may help in fulfilling that prophecy. Plus, The Order, through Roy, knowing that Belkar stabbed The Oracle, is the reason they haven't visited him since, which is an unambiguous win in his book. But, basically, I think the Oracle is pseudo-omniscient. What I mean by that is, he can view what will happen in the future...But he has to consciously focus on it. Hence how he gets interrupted: He wasn't bothering to check ahead. Plus, even assuming the prophecy doesn't end in his death, I don't see any way the prophecy could be true and not screw Belkar over.

[Peelee]

Actually...Was that a mistake?

I choose to present it as a mistake, almost entirely because if I can make my argument work under the worst case scenario, then it continues to work under better conditions regardless and I dk t have to worry about changing anything or coming up with other explanations for worse conditions.

[woweedd]

I choose to present it as a mistake, almost entirely because if I can make my argument work under the worst case scenario, then it continues to work under better conditions regardless and I dk t have to worry about changing anything or coming up with other explanations for worse conditions.

True enough.

[hroþila]

Perhaps "inaccurate" is not the right word. "Misleading"? The point is, he never says directly that Belkar is going to die. He implies it. And he has a tendency to phrase his prophecies in such a way that they are technically correct but imply something else or are just useless. Which leads me to believe that it is possible that he is seeing something other than death for Belkar, but makes it sound like he's going to die because he hates him.

In principle, I agree with much of this. It would be perfectly in-character for the Oracle to be vague and for one of his prophecies to come true in a non-obvious way. And theoretically speaking, such a prophecy being subverted in an interesting way might be a cool plot twist.
In practice, there's not much room for a resolution that fits the Oracle's prophecies without resulting in Belkar being dead (or as good as dead for all intents and purposes, even if technically alive somehow).

It's not clear why the Oracle would be so misleading just to screw with Belkar - Belkar doesn't remember, and the Oracle also tells Roy when Belkar isn't around. Unless we posit that he expected Roy to tell Belkar later, but then that would mean the Oracle knew that Roy would bypass the memory charm, so you can't use that incident as a sign of the Oracle being fallible.

The only benefit I could see from lying about Belkar's imminent death is that this knowledge has been an incentive for Roy to not deal with Belkar. He knows he'll die soon, so he's decided it's not his problem, at least the way things are right now. If Belkar proves to play a key role in saving the world, this would provide a good reason for the Oracle to imply Belkar was dying. But honestly, this strikes me as much less likely than the straight reading of the prophecy, so I just assume that the Oracle was vague because that's what he does, and because The Giant wanted people to speculate. Same way Belkar's prophecy and Roy's death were written the way they were to allow people to connect the two.

(Also, the above reasoning does not need Belkar to live, as it explains why the Oracle would bother telling Roy in the first place)

[CriticalFailure]

Here's my theory:

We are going to find out that containing the rifts requires a sacrifice of some sort. Soon was supposed to be the one to sacrifice himself, but he backed out at the last second, forcing Kraagor to be the one to sacrifice himself instead.

This is why Girard says "It should have been you who died in that rift you cowardly son of a bitch."

Belkar will complete his character arc by throwing himself into the rift to allow it to be closed, pushing the first character to choose to make the sacrifice (probably Roy, but I could see Durkon or even V doing it) out of the way.

I wonder if they went to seal the rift they found the world in the rift and Kraagor wanted to explore, then when the Snarl made it's presence known Soon freaked and demanded it be closed without waiting for him to return or something. Or he refused to explore the rift and Kraagor went in alone and that's why they weren't able to fight it back and had to close it with Kraagor inside.

[brian 333]

My guess is that Kraggor intercepted an attack by The Snarl that was intended for someone else, (Liran?) even though it was Soon's j6b to protect her while the rift was being sealed. Thus Girard's posthumous, "It should have been you," statement.

[Rrmcklin]

What is the point of an Oracle if the oracle's predictions are inaccurate?

Also, what prediction has the Oracle made so far which has been inaccurate? Not Roy with the memory charm; he said that passing through the memory charm would wipe his memory (a true statement), and he predicted that Roy would not leave on his own volition (an accurate prediction), but failed to realize that the method he chose would bypass the memory charm (not an inaccurate prediction at all, since he didn't predict whether or not Roy would remember, he just made a mistake choosing the method to ditch Roy).

Depending on the story, there very much could be a point. If this was a "fighting fate" story to show the future isn't set in stone or anything having the Oracle being usually right, only to be wrong about Belkar because Belkar/The Order actively fight against what he has said would be pretty standard.

But, there's no indication that this is that kind of story. There has been no indication that Rich wants us to think the Oracle's powers are inaccurate in any regard, and the Order aren't taking any steps to try and avoid Belkar's impending death.

Though it probably goes without saying, the only reason people are so desperate they keep repeating the same "twists" to the prophecy that has been said a million times over is just because they like Belkar and don't want him to do. They've just come to a conclusion first (as we all do sometimes) and are trying to twist things to match it instead of the other way around.

[Peelee]

Depending on the story, there very much could be a point. If this was a "fighting fate" story to show the future isn't set in stone or anything having the Oracle being usually right, only to be wrong about Belkar because Belkar/The Order actively fight against what he has said would be pretty standard.

But, there's no indication that this is that kind of story.

If I was a smarter man, I would have put words to that effect in.

Appreciate it!

[denthor]

I still say food poisoning. Anti climactic and funny considering nothing even plot relevant characters have tried and failed. But some assist baker takes him out is funny to me.

[Emanick]

I still say food poisoning. Anti climactic and funny considering nothing even plot relevant characters have tried and failed. But some assist baker takes him out is funny to me.

How's Vaarsuvius's ex-spouse going to get up to the North Pole?

[Squire Doodad]

How's Vaarsuvius's ex-spouse going to get up to the North Pole?

Epic teleport from one of the errant soul splices

[Fish]

I think I know how Belkar will die.

He’s going to die at the hands of Kilkil the kobold.

Think about it: Belkar’s current character journey is toward less random murder and chaos, and toward a more responsible and emotionally vested role. He might not try to murder Kilkil because it’s funny, or because it’s his “thing,” or because he likes a running gag. Kilkil is (supposedly) just a bureaucrat, and (in theory) helpless. (I doubt that myself; Tarquin invited him on a dungeon crawl, so he’s probably not a total duffer.)

But if Belkar refuses to do the job, Kilkil might not have such qualms about killing him.

Also, KilKil is a winged kobold, possibly with draconic blood. If he’s got dragon breath, he might be able to pull it off. Plus ... the name. Also, the Oracle is also a kobold who worships the Dragon Queen. There’s a possible connection there.

[D.One]

A Flumph will fall over Belkar and he'll be crushed to death...

[Squire Doodad]

A Flumph will fall over Belkar and he'll be crushed to death...

Flumph: "Huh, I can really see what they get out of this!"

[Particle_Man]

3.5 Belkar will be killed by 5th edition Belkar. It has been established that only Belkar can kill Belkar.

[Vessyra]

I'd always assumed it was going to be the Snarl since I first saw the prophecy, due to the whole no-resurrection property of it's soul-destruction. Plus, there's also the parallels with the Order of the Scribble's own barbarian dying, and the narrative of Belkar dying right at the end. I am hoping for subverted expectations; after all, Durkon's mission is basically to break the cycle, so doing a repeat of the Scribble would make more sense; however, I don't see Belkar getting killed by anything other than the Snarl.

[Dr.Zero]

I'd always assumed it was going to be the Snarl since I first saw the prophecy, due to the whole no-resurrection property of it's soul-destruction. Plus, there's also the parallels with the Order of the Scribble's own barbarian dying, and the narrative of Belkar dying right at the end. I am hoping for subverted expectations; after all, Durkon's mission is basically to break the cycle, so doing a repeat of the Scribble would make more sense; however, I don't see Belkar getting killed by anything other than the Snarl.

That makes a lot of sense, but I don't agree because this theory leaves out a point: the final, tearjerking sentence from B, that I'm sure (as I stated times and again) will be on the line of: "Why it... doesn't hurt... anymore? X_X" (referred to the clasp) showing us that B has moved from CE to a more CN field.
I mean, I see no other plot reason to introduce the whole pain issue but to show that at some point B won't feel that pain anymore.

Moreover, but I'm not sure, hasn't the author said that we will see B in the afterlife? I've kinda of a memory about this, but it might be completely wrong, though.

[Peelee]

Moreover, but I'm not sure, hasn't the author said that we will see B in the afterlife? I've kinda of a memory about this, but it might be completely wrong, though.

No. And even if Belkar succeeds at becoming non-Evil, he would go to lower the CN afterlife, the Windswept Depths of Pandemonium, which is still a pretty rotten fate.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I agree that the Snarl is the conservatively most likely bet, but I'm officially putting my money on whichever faction these new weirdly colored voices belong to. They are going to kill Belkar.

[Squire Doodad]

I agree that the Snarl is the conservatively most likely bet, but I'm officially putting my money on whichever faction these new weirdly colored voices belong to. They are going to kill Belkar.

Would you like to bet 10 quatloos, sir?

[RatElemental]

I mean, I see no other plot reason to introduce the whole pain issue but to show that at some point B won't feel that pain anymore.

We already got one, it woke Belkar up in the fight against the fHPoH.

[Dr.Zero]

We already got one, it woke Belkar up in the fight against the fHPoH.

Yes, that might be a possibility.

Too circumstantial, though, I'd say. A scratch from the cat, if pain was all that was needed for the plot, might have worked too. No reason to introduce that incredibly specific "pain because you're Evil". Moreover, just by chance, when B's character development was moving fast forward like in this arc.

So I keep my bet on the tearjerker final line, for now. (I'm a great believer in the law of conservation of details, as you might have guessed )

No. And even if Belkar succeeds at becoming non-Evil, he would go to lower the CN afterlife, the Windswept Depths of Pandemonium, which is still a pretty rotten fate.

Well, I'm not surprised my memory failed me here.

About B's afterlife, why not Arborea or Ysgard? After all, if he dies saving all the mortal in existence, that incredibly outnumbers the people he has killed or tortured. And you know, trying matters, he is trying to move away from evil, and...

Bah, I find it hard to convince myself, anyway I hope this had a stronger impact on you.

[Peelee]

trying matters

We know that trying matters for exactly one of the seventeen afterlives. The other sixteen? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I'm inclined to believe it does for the Good ones, but they're also exclusionary; I highly doubt the Abyss or the Nine Hells would be so discriminating. And who's to say for the Neutral or in-between planes?