Barbarian / Monk Build

[Sparky McDibben]

Hey all,

I'm starting a new campaign soon, and I have a mechanical question about the synergies between monk and barbarian.

The narrative source of this apparently ludicrous combo is that the character has some real bad anger issues, and got kicked out of his tree-monastery for not being able to deal with it (we've all had those days, right?). So I'm starting as a level 1 monk. Assuming he survives, I can see three paths forward. Either he gets control of his anger and continues on in monk, he embraces his anger and goes about Monk 1 - 4 / Barbarian 5 - 20, or he weaves a middle path and does about ten levels in each.

What subclasses, feats, equipment, and magic item combos can you all see being beneficial for the last two options?

Parameters: 5th edition D&D, no UA, but we are not limited to AL restrictions. DM allows 3rd-party products, but if you recommend one, please post a link.

Information: The character is a half-elf with the Selesnya initiate background. Level 1 stats are:

STR: 13 (+1)
DEX: 18 (+4)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 11 (+/-0)
WIS: 16 (+3)
CHA: 15 (+2)

Poster's intent: Build a character that is as optimized as they can be under these guidelines. I realize this may result in an ordinally sub-optimal build; I'm OK with that. Assume stats, race, background and current class (Monk 1) are locked.

Thank you!

[RickAllison]

Half and half would be taking an already-bad multiclass and making it so much worse. Commit to one or the other. Since you don't really have the Strength to make use of Barbarian, I'd say go Bearbarian and work toward Long Death Monk or Kensei. Long Death makes you super-tank; you are incredibly resilient so you can tank a lot of damage, while The fear AoE and the ability to defy death can keep you able to tank at higher levels and when you are heavily damaged.

[Sparky McDibben]

Ok, thanks! I guess that raises two questions. One, I'm unsure of what this guy's role in the party will be. I've seen tank as a suggestion, but what about others?

Second, why is this a bad multiclass? I don't mean "bad compared to either straight Barbarian or straight Monk " but is it "bad"?

[JNAProductions]

Ok, thanks! I guess that raises two questions. One, I'm unsure of what this guy's role in the party will be. I've seen tank as a suggestion, but what about others?

Second, why is this a bad multiclass? I don't mean "bad compared to either straight Barbarian or straight Monk " but is it "bad"?

There's almost no synergy between Monk and Barbarian. With good enough stats, it can work, but it'd be worse than either alone.

[clash]

The problem is that it is mad(multiple ability dependent). Monk wants high dexterity and wisdom and some con and barbarian wants high strength as well. In theory the barbarians rage damage boost would go great with the monks flurry of blows. But the problem is the barbarian bonus only works with strength and monk wants to attack with dexterity. It can work, it's just more difficult. Ideally you want your first level in barbarian to get their unarmored defense reliant on con. Then you can drop wisdom to 13, make your strength your highest stat then con then dexterity. With those stats take 18 in strength then 16 in con and 15 in dexterity. That will give you +6 to hit with proficiency and still start with 15 ac.

[bid]

Ideally you want your first level in barbarian to get their unarmored defense reliant on con.

Trap option for anyone boosting Str. Medium armor is always a better pick.
Moreover, starting barbarian removes the same-name monk feature.

Rage is only damage reduction, unarmored defense is a trap, reckless attack does nothing, danger sense works well with evasion. You don't gain enough.
I'd say just fluff it, don't waste a level on barbarian.

[CTurbo]

I want to do this one day when I'm playing in a campaign with high rolled stats and can afford the MADness. It would be a Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde type character.

Mostly likely would go Barbarian 2/Monk X

I'd play him as a straight Monk with previously agreed upon triggers that sets him into a rage.

I think it would be a fun character, but yeah definitely suboptimal under normal circumstances.

[RickAllison]

There are Barb/Monks which can be effective, but they are more specific builds, and usually higher leveled. A Tortle Long Death Monk/Bear Totem could maybe pull it off, since they aren’t reliant on Dexterity so you can focus Strength and Wisdom. This keeps your Stunning Strike and fear AoE DC high, Con can be third and you can rely on your raw HP and Bear rage to mitigate damage rather than a high AC.

[Lunali]

Trap option for anyone boosting Str. Medium armor is always a better pick.
Moreover, starting barbarian removes the same-name monk feature.

Rage is only damage reduction, unarmored defense is a trap, reckless attack does nothing, danger sense works well with evasion. You don't gain enough.
I'd say just fluff it, don't waste a level on barbarian.

Medium armor is a better pick most of the time, but if you're dead set on multiclassing monk, you'll want to go unarmored. Of the two forms of unarmored defense, barbarian's is the superior one since you will want con regardless. Since you can only have one, starting barbarian is the better choice.

[Moxxmix]

Fluffing it is certainly an option.

I had a sorcerer who could arguably have justified taking a level or two or either rogue or bard. Ultimately, though, I didn't want to be a rogue or bard; I just wanted to do rogue-y or bard-y things, which was accomplished through spell selection and roleplaying.

As for barbarian/monk, I actually have a barbarian that could reasonably be described as very monk-like. He's from the far east, using a meditative trance rather than a frothing rage for the Rage ability, and is a Totem Warrior focusing on Eagle traits. Getting the third Eagle trait will mean all kinds of wire-fu shenanigans, and I'm considering picking up Mobile just for the extra movement speed (can have 100' of flight every turn), even though boosting Con would probably be better, numbers-wise.

~~~~

For your own character...

There's no point in worrying about barbarian Unarmored Defense. Your monk defense is already higher (17, vs the 16 that barbarian would grant). You'd have to raise Con by 4 points to improve on the monk's version, and that's a somewhat costly trade-off.

While monk generally focuses on Dex, because they can use it for monk weapons as well as AC, that's only an option. It's entirely possible to go Str focused instead. In that case, you can make use of Rage and Reckless Attack.

Monk grants you proficiency with Str and Dex saving throws, while barbarian grants you advantage on Str and Dex saving throws (while raging, and that you can see, respectively). It should be extremely rare to fail either of those.

~~~~

Barbarian Archtypes:

Berserker: No. Aside from the exhaustion issue, it competes with monk for use of bonus actions.

Totem: Eagle at level 3 is sort of obsoleted by a monk's Step of the Wind (1 ki for disengage and dash as bonus action, vs dash as bonus action and disadvantage on opportunity attacks against you while raging). Bear resistance is always nice. Wolf might combo very nicely, though, as you can easily move between targets to give your party advantage.

6th level Eagle gives you a perception boost, which should work well for you. 14th level Eagle would be great for wire-fu antics, but I'm not sure that you'd want to go that far.

Ancestral Guardian: More of a tank type, and I don't think mixes well with monk.

Storm Herald: Bonus action requirements conflict with monk. Probably not a good mix.

Zealot: Might work, but doesn't really seem to fit the character theme.


So of the barbarian archetypes, only Totem seems like it would be a good mix.


Monk Archetypes:

Open Hand: Maybe.

Shadow: Not really fitting.

Four Elements: Magic conflicts with Rage.

Drunken Master: Might fit. Given that he was kicked out of his monastary, I could see him turning to drink, which in turn could open up this path. Drunken Technique would combo nicely with Wolf totem.

Kensei: Maybe.

Sun Soul: Not really.


So Drunken Master could work, with Kensei and Open Hand as viable alternates.

~~~~

Given where abilities split up, I'd consider a Monk 11/Barb 9 (for Brutal Critical on barbarian and 11th level subclass feature on monk), Monk 12/Barb 8 (for ASI on monk), Barb 11/Monk 9 (Relentless Rage + Unarmored Movement), or Barb 12/Monk 8 (ASI).

You definitely want monk up to at least 6th level, to make unarmed strikes count as magical. That would allow up to level 14 subclass abilities on barbarian. Barbarian is a lot fuzzier in the lower levels, since you'd already get Extra Attack from monk at level 5. You also have a little flexibility between 5 and 7 for some class options, and similarly nice stuff on monk between 13 and 15.


Overall, I'd stop barbarian at either level 3, 6, 9, or 12. 3 gives baseline subclass and 3 rages per day. 6 gives 4 rages per day and another subclass feature. 9 improves your bonus rage damage to +3. And 12 gives you an ASI. I'd consider them as decreasing in order of preference, most likely stopping at 3, but having a convincing reason to go to 6, and lesser reasons to go to 9 or 12.

You have a strong reason to go to at least level 11 on monk, between features, and increasing your martial arts die.

~~~~

I know you said that stats are locked, but I would still consider a change up. In my first revision attempt, I'd move Con into Wis (14 Wis, lose 1 AC), Wis into Str (16 Str), and Str into Con (13 Con). That hurts Con a little bit, and lowers your AC. However since Rage gives you damage resistance, lowering your AC is not that big a deal. And you can either pick up Resilient:Con, or wait til Monk gives you proficiency in all saving throws.

Alternatively, move Dex into Str (18 Str), Wis into Dex (16 Dex), Con into Wis (14 Wis), and Str into Con (13 Con). That hurts your AC more (15 AC instead of 17), but significantly improves your offense (partly to compensate for the slower speed to get Extra Attack). Consider Resilient:Con or Tavern Brawler to round Con up to 14. Tavern Brawler lets you grapple as a bonus action, which synergizes well with unarmed martial arts combat plus Rage bonuses.

Default monk damage, unarmed: 1d4+4 = 6.5 [+6 to hit]
Default Rage damage, unarmed: 1d4+1+2 = 5.5 [+3 to hit]
v1 modified Rage damage, unarmed: 1d4+3+2 = 7.5 [+5 to hit]
v2 modified Rage damage, unarmed: 1d4+4+2 = 8.5 [+6 to hit]

(For both versions, I ignored Cha, since I assume it has the +2 Cha from half-elf, and thus not useful for swapping things around.)

~~~~

Level progression.

This is a bit subjective, and is the main problem I have with multiclassing: Actually getting to the higher levels where all the features fit together means it takes longer to get a lot of important early features. At level 20 the combo may look amazing, but there's a lot of frustrating juggling going on to get there.


I would go:

Monk 1/Barb 0 - Martial Arts
Monk 1/Barb 1 - Rage
Monk 1/Barb 2 - Reckless Attack, Danger Sense
Monk 1/Barb 3 - Totem Wolf or Bear, 3 Rages
Monk 2/Barb 3 - Unarmored Movement (movement=40')
Monk 3/Barb 3 - Drunken Technique (Disengage+move), Deflect Missiles
Monk 4/Barb 3 - ASI, Slow Fall
Monk 5/Barb 3 - Extra Attack, Stunning Strike, 1d6 monk weapon damage
Monk 6/Barb 3 - Attacks are magical, Tispy Sway, movement=45'
Monk 7/Barb 3 - Evasion, Stillness of Mind
Monk 8/Barb 3 - ASI
Monk 8/Barb 4 - ASI
Monk 8/Barb 5 - Fast Movement (movement=55')
Monk 8/Barb 6 - Eagle Perception, 4 Rages
Monk++

or:

Monk 1/Barb 0 - Martial Arts
Monk 1/Barb 1 - Rage
Monk 1/Barb 2 - Reckless Attack, Danger Sense
Monk 1/Barb 3 - Totem Wolf or Bear, 3 Rages
Monk 1/Barb 4 - ASI
Monk 1/Barb 5 - Extra Attack, Fast Movement (movement=40')
Monk 2/Barb 5 - Unarmored Movement (movement=50')
Monk 3/Barb 5 - Drunken Technique (Disengage+move), Deflect Missiles
Monk 4/Barb 5 - ASI, Slow Fall
Monk 5/Barb 5 - Stunning Strike, 1d6 monk weapon damage
Monk 6/Barb 5 - Attacks are magical, Tispy Sway, movement=55'
Monk 7/Barb 5 - Evasion, Stillness of Mind
Monk 8/Barb 5 - ASI
Monk 8/Barb 6 - Eagle Perception, 4 Rages
Monk++


I feel like the second progression is a bit better. Basically, push barbarian up to 5 ASAP, then progress on monk after that. You can pick up Barb 6 at any point if you need to increase your number of Rages, or want the perception or strength totem bonus. The main downside is that your unarmed attacks aren't considered magical until character level 11, which is annoying. You can get around it if you can get someone to cast Magic Weapon on a club or something (or just get a +1 dagger), since that counts as a monk weapon.

~~~~

Potentially useful feats:

Tavern Brawler: Round up Con (if you adjust stats) or Str (if you don't); grapple as a bonus action.
Prodigy: Extra skills, expertise in Athletics, if you find grappling useful.
Mage Slayer/Sentinel: Can attack as a reaction in some circumstances. Useful to mix with constant repositioning, particularly combined with Wolf totem to give party advantage.

Otherwise, I'd focus on raising Str and Wis. If you don't adjust stats, pour it all into Str (including initial Tavern Brawler to round up). If you do adjust stats, I'd probably put the remainder after Tavern Brawler into Wis.

[Spacehamster]

Trap option for anyone boosting Str. Medium armor is always a better pick.
Moreover, starting barbarian removes the same-name monk feature.

Rage is only damage reduction, unarmored defense is a trap, reckless attack does nothing, danger sense works well with evasion. You don't gain enough.
I'd say just fluff it, don't waste a level on barbarian.

Curious on why ppl say unarmored defense is a trap, always makes me laugh, have fun with your ten ac when the camp is attacked and the plate armor is neatly in your pack dude. ;)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Curious on why ppl say unarmored defense is a trap, always makes me laugh, have fun with your ten ac when the camp is attacked and the plate armor is neatly in your pack dude. ;)

Who takes off armor when they go to sleep?

[Lunali]

Who takes off armor when they go to sleep?

People that live in worlds where getting interrupted during the night is rare.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

People that live in worlds where getting interrupted during the night is rare.

Gotcha, nobody.

[Remover of Obst]

Assuming you don't have to tank, could you adjust your stats for STR based attacks to benefit from rage? CHA 15 seems like a weird fit for this character.

Looks like you could still get monk weapon dice improvements as you level, but you don't have to use DEX for the rolls if you don't want to. I believe your Bonus Action unarmed monk attacks count as melee weapon attacks using strength to get the rage damage bonus.

Again, if you don't have to be a stay in place/front line tank, mobility would be a fun feat. Run in and get four reckless attacks and run out without opportunity attacks.

[Sparky McDibben]

Fluffing it is certainly an option.

[Snip]

Thank you Moxxmix. That was very helpful and exactly what I needed!

[Amechra]

Who takes off armor when they go to sleep?

People with a DM that penalizes you for sleeping in armor?

---

Yeah, you've kinda screwed yourself by dumping Strength, as far as your Barbarian features go. That being said...

• Despite what Moxxmix said, Ancestral Guardian could be really good for a Monk. You have a bunch of chances for setting up Ancestral Protectors, and a Monk's mobility means that they'll have a real issue going after you. Splash in Drunken Master (for some "disengage while engaging in violence" fun) to taste.
• Eagle Totem actually works rather well with Monk, because it lets you get that Dash in without having to spend Ki.

Honestly, you could make the whole thing work a whole lot better by swapping Strength and Dexterity and begging your DM to let you use Martial Arts/Unarmored Movement with shields. Then come to town.

[Spacehamster]

Who takes off armor when they go to sleep?

Well the rules say you can’t rest in medium or heavy armor so there is that.

[RickAllison]

Unarmored Defense for Barbarians is still useful for medium armor people; when you can't wear your armor for whatever reason, you are still quite resilient.

[Lunali]

Well the rules say you can’t rest in medium or heavy armor so there is that.

The rules say you recover fewer hit dice and don't reduce exhaustion if you sleep in medium or heavy armor, but you still get the rest of the benefits of a long rest.

[Spacehamster]

The rules say you recover fewer hit dice and don't reduce exhaustion if you sleep in medium or heavy armor, but you still get the rest of the benefits of a long rest.

Oh right remembered it wrong then, we run it that you can’t sleep in heavy medium since it’s quite unrealistic to sleep properly in a cold steel shell

[bid]

Curious on why ppl say unarmored defense is a trap, always makes me laugh, have fun with your ten ac when the camp is attacked and the plate armor is neatly in your pack dude. ;)

Well, if you want to spend the day fighting in pjs, that's AC15... no ten ac.
Or for the low-low cost of 760gp, you can up it to AC19.
Maybe you'd like to start Str14 Dex16 Con16, use your ASI to Con20 by level 8 and reach AC18. But I don't think it's worth gimping your attack power.

Monk doesn't gimp anything by going Dex20 by level 8 and still gets the same AC18.


That's why unarmored defense on a Str class is a trap, while unarmored defense on a Dex class is godsent.

[Spacehamster]

Well, if you want to spend the day fighting in pjs, that's AC15... no ten ac.
Or for the low-low cost of 760gp, you can up it to AC19.
Maybe you'd like to start Str14 Dex16 Con16, use your ASI to Con20 by level 8 and reach AC18. But I don't think it's worth gimping your attack power.

Monk doesn't gimp anything by going Dex20 by level 8 and still gets the same AC18.


That's why unarmored defense on a Str class is a trap, while unarmored defense on a Dex class is godsent.

Thought we talked about unarmored defense in general not just for monk/barb mc.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The rules say you recover fewer hit dice and don't reduce exhaustion if you sleep in medium or heavy armor, but you still get the rest of the benefits of a long rest.

Yup, not many people get out of armor in this fantasy game because exhaustion isn't typically a problem and HD are typically forgotten.

[xp3ngu1nkn1gh7x]

Like some of the others have said this current stat array would be better suited for a single class Monk or maybe a Monk/Ranger multiclass. If you really want to bring these two together you would need to swap your stats and make Str and Con your highest priority with just enough Dex and Wis to multiclass. Which gets the best is going to depend on your playstyle. I'm playing this same build as a tank. The plan is Bear Totem 4/Kensei 16. Barbarian Unarmored defense so you can focus Con and bring up your AC at the same time. Bear Totem helps you resist almost everything and Kensei adds a little extra to your damage and also allows you to use battleaxes or longswords to help your damage output. Basically get your Con to 20 fast, which if you take that 18 and make that your Con it shouldn't take too long. Then focus your strength. Somewhere along the line if you want to tank then take Tough to help increase your HP. If you want more damage output then go Zealot. I feel like this combination always gets a lot of hate for being MAD (which it is) but if you have the stats for it (which if you relocate yours then you do) it can be a very strong build with a lot of synergy (Evasion/Danger Sense, Reckless Attack/All those Monk attacks, Rage damage/Unarmed attacks, Step of the Wind really helps you when enemies try to run so you don't lost Rage, Stillness of Mind so you don't become that Barbarian that gets charmed and wails on your party, etc...)

[Phoenix042]

Oh right remembered it wrong then, we run it that you can’t sleep in heavy medium since it’s quite unrealistic to sleep properly in a cold steel shell

This is actually quite untrue!

Historically, it was quite common for marching and traveling soldiers to sleep in their armor while in hostile territory, because of how long and cumbersome it is to put armor on.

Heavy armor in particular was full of padding and arranged to be comfortable for long term wear. If you've ever worn proper armor for a LARPing event, for example, in which there was a great deal of marching and or fighting, and then made camp in the wilderness, I can tell you from experience that there's absolutely nothing at all more uncomfortable about sleeping in armor compared to sleeping directly on the ground.



Try going on a two week backpacking trip where you're wearing armor. It'd be pretty hard, heavy stuff, but then answer me this: You're two weeks away from civilization, two weeks away from any help, and then...

6 - 8 times in a day, you are pitched in a deadly struggle for your life.
Attacked by a grizzly bear that would have ripped out your throat but for your Gorget.
Ambushed by Sasquatch, who would have crushed your skull but for your helm.
Arrows rained down upon you by little ugly man-like creatures, each one bouncing from your chest because of your breastplate.
You stumble upon three dead travelers, only to have them suddenly grab you and drag you to the ground. Their lifeless eyes lock with yours as they scrabble against your armor, searching for a place to bite, to tear, to break you. They find no purchase, and finally you prevail.

And on and on, all day long, every hour or two, you are hunted, attacked, ambushed, and in the end, saved only by the steel that encases you and your own grit and strength.

And then you make camp, because you must. You're exhausted, beat to hell, you'd sleep on a cold slab of granite at this point. You set up your unsealed fur tent and your thin cloth bedroll, and then you look across at me in the dim, feeble firelight, surrounded by silent darkness filled with deadly horrors determined to part your flesh from your bones, and your blood from your body, and you tell me again how unrealistic it is to sleep in your armor as you begin to take it off.

Yea, no. Not happening.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

This is actually quite untrue!

Historically, it was quite common for marching and traveling soldiers to sleep in their armor while in hostile territory, because of how long and cumbersome it is to put armor on.

Heavy armor in particular was full of padding and arranged to be comfortable for long term wear. If you've ever worn proper armor for a LARPing event, for example, in which there was a great deal of marching and or fighting, and then made camp in the wilderness, I can tell you from experience that there's absolutely nothing at all more uncomfortable about sleeping in armor compared to sleeping directly on the ground.



Try going on a two week backpacking trip where you're wearing armor. It'd be pretty hard, heavy stuff, but then answer me this: You're two weeks away from civilization, two weeks away from any help, and then...

6 - 8 times in a day, you are pitched in a deadly struggle for your life.
Attacked by a grizzly bear that would have ripped out your throat but for your Gorget.
Ambushed by Sasquatch, who would have crushed your skull but for your helm.
Arrows rained down upon you by little ugly man-like creatures, each one bouncing from your chest because of your breastplate.
You stumble upon three dead travelers, only to have them suddenly grab you and drag you to the ground. Their lifeless eyes lock with yours as they scrabble against your armor, searching for a place to bite, to tear, to break you. They find no purchase, and finally you prevail.

And on and on, all day long, every hour or two, you are hunted, attacked, ambushed, and in the end, saved only by the steel that encases you and your own grit and strength.

And then you make camp, because you must. You're exhausted, beat to hell, you'd sleep on a cold slab of granite at this point. You set up your unsealed fur tent and your thin cloth bedroll, and then you look across at me in the dim, feeble firelight, surrounded by silent darkness filled with deadly horrors determined to part your flesh from your bones, and your blood from your body, and you tell me again how unrealistic it is to sleep in your armor as you begin to take it off.

Yea, no. Not happening.

Also, the mobility of someone in full armor isn't as robotic as most would believe.

Sound warning!

https://youtu.be/qzTwBQniLSc

It's a video showing how... Dexterous people would be in full armor. Dude is doing cartwheels in it.

[Protolisk]

It's a video showing how... Dexterous people would be in full armor. Dude is doing cartwheels in it.

Which is why they still get all Dex saves, all dex attacks, and nearly all dex checks, at normal level. It's just the stealth checks that are at disadvantage because it makes a bit of sound, but it's not mobility that is particularly limited.

[Sparky McDibben]

Thanks, y'all. Not sure why, but a lot of the comments have focused on this character as a tank. I think that he will be a striker. So I'm reflavoring. Depending on what happens, I am going to use either Drunken Master to represent him giving into despair and his anger issues, or Open Palm for control and focus. That way I'm dropping barbarian entirely. This was a good discussion. Thanks to all!!

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Which is why they still get all Dex saves, all dex attacks, and nearly all dex checks, at normal level. It's just the stealth checks that are at disadvantage because it makes a bit of sound, but it's not mobility that is particularly limited.

I never said they didn't get those things or implied that they shouldn't

Going along with thebperson I quoted, I was pointing out more misconceptions of full armor.

If full armor was uncomfortable to wear, you wouldn't be able to do half that stuff... Heck, the full range of motion even shows that it's fitted rather well.