The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: how hel could have won

    Quote Originally Posted by hroĢila View Post
    In Greenhilt: Prince of Denmark, Vaarsuvius refers to the "sixteen unique planes of existence [that] form a great wheel around the central axis of reality". How canonical we should consider that is open to debate.
    Considering that's stuff that the average reader doesn't have access to and isn't connected to the main story, I'm going to have to give a hard "Not solid enough evidence" file.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: how hel could have won

    That Roy told the tale "Greenhilt, Prince of Denmark" is "canon" (unlike the Dragon Magazine strips which are a different continuity). So, Roy's narration of the tale mentions "sixteen planes of existence forming a great wheel". It really depends how accurate Roy's knowledge of the planes is assumed to be.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: how hel could have won

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Wait, what? Where is that from? Did Rich write more than 1 extra stories with the characters in Shakespeare?
    That was actually the first one, in Snip and Snails and Dragon Tales. Haleo and Julelan was the second.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    That's fifteen minutes more in the Dark One's afterlife than anybody else in the comic, Jirix is the ultimate expert on the matter right now, even more than Redcloak himself that's only been on this side of the veil.

    And again Jirix was happy. The goblinoids in the afterlife army were happy too. Whetever the specifics, the goblinoids are clearly satisfied with the Dark One's afterlife plan.

    If it was a bleak place of despair, fifteen minutes would've been more than enough for Jirix to notice it and warn the new Gobotopia "Hey guys if we keep serving the Dark One all that awaits us is painful torment, we should start looking to alternatives!" just like all dwarves will do their best to escape Hel.
    Again, resurrectes souls do not remember anything about the afterlife. So whatever Jirix remembers is from before entering the Afterlife proper.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-08-24 at 10:03 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    That was actually the first one, in Snip and Snails and Dragon Tales. Haleo and Julelan was the second.



    Again, resurrectes souls do not remember anything about the afterlife. So whatever Jirix remembers is from before entering the Afterlife proper.
    They remember vague details, Roy remembers "A big, happy fulfilling blur" and does have a vague idea for the spellsplitter maneuver, presumably if it was awful torture Jirix would recognize that he remembered pain.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: how hel could have won

    Given that the plane sits on the border between Evil and Neutral (if treated as Acheron) - makes sense that it would not be particularly unpleasant. I can see The Dark One putting the extra effort in to keep his followers moderately happy.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: how hel could have won

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Given that the plane sits on the border between Evil and Neutral (if treated as Acheron) - makes sense that it would not be particularly unpleasant. I can see The Dark One putting the extra effort in to keep his followers moderately happy.
    Specially if your followers are a race of warlike creatures who like discipline and combat.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Given that the plane sits on the border between Evil and Neutral (if treated as Acheron) - makes sense that it would not be particularly unpleasant. I can see The Dark One putting the extra effort in to keep his followers moderately happy.
    Well, his goblin followers. He is Evil. I imagine if any non-Goblin, or, indeed, any Goblin who didn't find the idea of eternal battle rewarding, were to end up in his afterlife...It would be a lot less pleasant for them. Hekc, it's not 100% clear he even gives a **** about Bugbears, let alone non-Goblinoids.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Well, his goblin followers. He is Evil. I imagine if any non-Goblin, or, indeed, any Goblin who didn't find the idea of eternal battle rewarding, were to end up in his afterlife...It would be a lot less pleasant for them. Hekc, it's not 100% clear he even gives a **** about Bugbears, let alone non-Goblinoids.
    Assuming TDO has put in some effort to make his eternal battles appealing, he probably has room for chefs and craftsmen and the like in his army who rarely see battle but who can forever work on their trade. I doubt anyone who just wants to relax would have an enjoyable time, but regardless it isn't just "slash! maim! gut! coup-de-grace!" for all of eternity (or until your soul dissipates).
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: how hel could have won

    Reminds me of a novel where the good afterlife was so boring that a devil set up a fake one that people actually preferred to the real thing. If heaven has harps and Hel has casinos, guess where most people would want to go?
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: how hel could have won

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Again, resurrectes souls do not remember anything about the afterlife. So whatever Jirix remembers is from before entering the Afterlife proper.
    I think it's entirely possible that his memory of the afterlife the second time he was rezzed could have been granted him by the Dark One. First time, not so much, obviously.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Assuming TDO has put in some effort to make his eternal battles appealing, he probably has room for chefs and craftsmen and the like in his army who rarely see battle but who can forever work on their trade. I doubt anyone who just wants to relax would have an enjoyable time, but regardless it isn't just "slash! maim! gut! coup-de-grace!" for all of eternity (or until your soul dissipates).
    True enough. I imagine they have room for great artists and craftsmen to brighten the halls, wise men of good consul and strategic skill, or even otherwise-unexceptional men who possess great courage in service to the Dark One. That said, if you are a coward, there is no place for you, let alone a non-Goblinoid.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    True enough. I imagine they have room for great artists and craftsmen to brighten the halls, wise men of good consul and strategic skill, or even otherwise-unexceptional men who possess great courage in service to the Dark One. That said, if you are a coward, there is no place for you, let alone a non-Goblinoid.
    They have Goblin-Salvador-Dali working on the new uniforms. They seem pleasant enough for striking fear into the hearts of enemies, but no one has actually been able to decide what they are supposed to be.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: how hel could have won

    I think Thor's interrupted sentence on first panel of #1177 hints that Hel could have played differently and that things wouldn't have turned that way.

    Then again, I'm not sure she can change now. Even if they're not her followers, Northerners believe she acts the way she does, so... She may be stuck.

    This gods things really looks like a chicken and egg situation.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quild View Post
    This gods things really looks like a chicken and egg situation.
    Already pointed it out in another thread in the past but yeah it makes no sense that gods created mortals out of nowhere in such a way that there's this huge feedback loop, strongly hinting all the gods themselves started as ascended mortals, being empowered by faith in the first place.

    Of course the gods would keep it a secret along their own secrets, or perhaps they've forgotten it themselves, such as Odin going crazy just from his believers hating magic.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-08-26 at 06:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: how hel could have won

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Its pretty clear that, from the number of afterlives being the same as in the Great Wheel, and generally being described in similar ways - that they are "Great Wheel afterlives with the serial numbers filed off"

    From Jirix's "iron plateau" description, we can deduce that it is Acheron's equivalent.
    I agree. Lacking a name, I'm going to call it "OOTS's Equivalent Of Archeron, Which Is Not Archeron Exactly As It Is In 3.5, But Is Roughly Analogous To Archeron, Such That It's A Decent Comparison."

    Probably shorten that to "Archeron" in chats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Reminds me of a novel where the good afterlife was so boring that a devil set up a fake one that people actually preferred to the real thing. If heaven has harps and Hel has casinos, guess where most people would want to go?
    Well, is it a casino where I always win?
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I agree. Lacking a name, I'm going to call it "OOTS's Equivalent Of Archeron, Which Is Not Archeron Exactly As It Is In 3.5, But Is Roughly Analogous To Archeron, Such That It's A Decent Comparison."

    Probably shorten that to "Archeron" in chats.

    Well, is it a casino where I always win?
    Yes but if you try to go to the libraru your eyes fall off.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: how hel could have won

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Yes but if you try to go to the libraru your eyes fall off.
    Good thing i know braille.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Good thing i know braille.
    *hands fall off.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I agree. Lacking a name, I'm going to call it "OOTS's Equivalent Of Archeron, Which Is Not Archeron Exactly As It Is In 3.5, But Is Roughly Analogous To Archeron, Such That It's A Decent Comparison."

    Probably shorten that to "Archeron" in chats.
    I believe you could call it Acheron*, or Greg...


    Edit: We've been doing that with "The Vampire Formely Known as Durkon Thundershield, Which Is Not Durkon Thundershield Exactly, But Shares (shared) His Body and Applied a Vampire Template to His Stats, Such That It's A Decent Analogy" and it has been working.
    Last edited by D.One; 2019-08-27 at 03:15 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    *hands fall off.
    *Books catch fire.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    I believe you could call it Acheron*
    Oh, I do use the asterisk. I just do it mentally, like it was recommended.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    *Books catch fire.
    That must have been a different episode.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-08-27 at 03:19 PM.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Oh, I do use the asterisk. I just do it mentally, like it was recommended.


    That must have been a different episode.
    It was only on channel 451 :)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    That Roy told the tale "Greenhilt, Prince of Denmark" is "canon" (unlike the Dragon Magazine strips which are a different continuity). So, Roy's narration of the tale mentions "sixteen planes of existence forming a great wheel". It really depends how accurate Roy's knowledge of the planes is assumed to be.
    Roy and the order are in all the Dragon Magazine comics. Roy telling the story doesn't make what he says canon.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    Roy and the order are in all the Dragon Magazine comics. Roy telling the story doesn't make what he says canon.
    Yeah, but Belkar having ranks in gourmet cooking was also in the Dragon comics, and then turned out to be canon. Maybe the other stuff is also canon, but just hasn't come up.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    Yeah, but Belkar having ranks in gourmet cooking was also in the Dragon comics, and then turned out to be canon. Maybe the other stuff is also canon, but just hasn't come up.
    Assume they are non-canonical until proven otherwise. That's my standard for ambiguous canonicity.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    Roy and the order are in all the Dragon Magazine comics. Roy telling the story doesn't make what he says canon.
    The Dragon Magazine comics arenít set during the actual story. The telling of the Sticktales explicitly takes during the voyage between the Azurite refugee island and Sandsedge.

    I donít really see any way to avoid the conclusion that itís canon. The Giant wouldnít have set it during a real voyage if he intended it to be noncanonical.

    Now, if you mean the actual tales told arenít canonical - no, of course they arenít. Theyíre just things the main characters made up and exist only as fiction, even in-universe. No one would suggest otherwise, I imagine.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2019-08-28 at 10:12 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Back on topic: What if we're wrong?
    Maybe Hel did win. We're just in an incredibly distant offshoot of the alpha timeline in which a ridiculous event happened that stopped Hel from winning.
    In the real timeline, Hel ends the world, gets all the souls, takes over the Northern Pantheon and lives for the rest of eternity trapped in the cycle with the Snarl devouring planets as the luxurious queen of the Northern Pantheon.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-08-29 at 04:32 PM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Back on topic: What if we're wrong?
    Maybe Hel did win. We're just in an incredibly distant offshoot of the alpha timeline in which a ridiculous event happened that stopped Hel from winning.
    In the real timeline, Hel ends the world, gets all the souls, takes over the Northern Pantheon and lives for the rest of eternity trapped in the cycle with the Snarl devouring planets as the luxurious queen of the Northern Pantheon.
    So you're proposing a universe in which deuterio is right?

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    So you're proposing a universe in which deuterio is right?
    Oh heavens no. The Thundershield clan still aren't Mary Sues, they just never entered the picture to begin with.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: how hel could have won

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Back on topic: What if we're wrong?
    Maybe Hel did win. We're just in an incredibly distant offshoot of the alpha timeline in which a ridiculous event happened that stopped Hel from winning.
    In the real timeline, Hel ends the world, gets all the souls, takes over the Northern Pantheon and lives for the rest of eternity trapped in the cycle with the Snarl devouring planets as the luxurious queen of the Northern Pantheon.
    Given that we're only looking at this timeline... What would that matter? What makes this not the real timeline? What makes me care that it's not? Is a rose by any other name not the timeline that these books are focused on?

    that last one may have gotten away from me there.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-08-29 at 08:07 PM.
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