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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Zhorn's Avatar

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    Default Brainstorming: DC of Crafted Poisons

    Just a short one:

    Crafting poisons, deciding on the save to be rolled (DC value). <<<<<<< Thread topic
    Taking a general approach with effects by using the DMG (p257-258) as example poisons, but I'd like to map the players skill at crafting poisons into the process.
    A purchased poison or one harvested from a creature is exactly as per the book, but I'm thinking crafted poison's DC to be a variable.

    Poison's DC = 8 + Proficiency Dice (with a minimum value of 8 + Bonus Proficiency)

    For Proficiency Dice see DMG (p257-258 edit: p263, foolishly I pasted the wrong page number)

    So crafted poisons made by player characters will have
    1st-4th level: DC of 10 to 12
    5th-8th level: DC of 11 to 14
    9th-12th level: DC of 12 to 16
    13th- 16th level: DC of 13 to 18
    17th-20th level: DC of 14 to 20
    Last edited by Zhorn; 2019-08-25 at 10:20 PM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Brainstorming: Crafting Poisons

    A poisoner Subclass for the Artificer or Rogue might work.

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    Zhorn's Avatar

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    Default Re: Brainstorming: Crafting Poisons

    Quote Originally Posted by BerzerkerUnit View Post
    A poisoner Subclass for the Artificer or Rogue might work.
    Assassination Rogues already get proficiency with the poisoner's kit at 3rd level, no need to reinvent that wheel.

    But more importantly I'm only interested in the crafting side for this topic. If a character gets proficiency with the Poisoner's Kit via any other method, I don't care for the "you can't make this because you're not of [x] class" reasoning.

    Strictly speaking of the poisoner's kit; it mentions letting the user apply their proficiency bonus to the crafting of poisons, but it's one of those things that in the PHB, DMG, and XGtE does not offer any details on how it applies.
    Last edited by Zhorn; 2019-08-25 at 03:39 PM.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Brainstorming: Crafting Poisons

    I'd base poison effects on spells, since they offer a broad variety and a convenient tier system.

    Hallucinogens would imitate illusion spells. Other psychoactives would imitate enchantments. Painful and debilitating targets would imitate harmful spells from a variety of schools.

    If the spell would deal any damage, the equivalent poison deals poison damage.

    If the spell would have multiple targets or an AoE, it simply doesnt.

    If the spell would require any kind of save or an attack roll, the equivalent poison requires a Constitution save. Poison save DC is determined at the time of crafting, using intelligence as the relevant ability.

    And if the spell would require concentration, the equivalent poison forces the TARGET to concentrate. Their concentration cannot be broken until the poison runs its duration.

    ~~~

    Instead of costing slots to cast, poisons would cost material to create. The cost of materials, if they can be bought at all, would be tied to the original spell level. Say, (spell level x 10)^2 gp.

    100 gp for a 1st level poison
    400 for 2nd
    600 for 3rd
    etc.

    Cantrips can be 25 gp, because why not?
    Last edited by GalacticAxekick; 2019-08-25 at 11:45 AM.

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    Zhorn's Avatar

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    Default Re: Brainstorming: Crafting Poisons

    Quote Originally Posted by GalacticAxekick View Post
    Poison save DC is determined at the time of crafting, using intelligence as the relevant ability.
    What formula did you have in mind?
    What DC range would this look like?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Brainstorming: Crafting Poisons

    It does move away from the rules as written, but I'd be willing to Houserule it if it is important to my players enjoyment. Your numbers seem fine. :D

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
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    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

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    Zhorn's Avatar

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    Default Re: Brainstorming: Crafting Poisons

    Cheers Bjark.

    Mostly I'm just trying to figure a good way to tie in proficiency bonuses and sense of progression.

    If going with a static DC, I could see going with what GalacticAxekick suggests and go with tying in Intelligence modifier.
    I'd assume that would be the same number used for spell casting DC; 8 + INT mod + Proficiency Bonus, giving a range of
    1st-4th level: DC of 10 5 (5 to 15)
    5th-8th level: DC of 11 5 (6 to 16)
    9th-12th level: DC of 12 5 (7 to 17)
    13th- 16th level: DC of 13 5 (8 to 18)
    17th-20th level: DC of 14 5 (9 to 19)

    and also giving more value to Intelligence is nice.
    But, I think I'm more a fan of trying to divorce tool proficiencies from ability modifiers.
    Still like having a roll element, hence the formula; 8 + Proficiency Dice (with a minimum value of 8 + Bonus Proficiency)

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Brainstorming: DC of Crafted Poisons

    8 + Prof seems perfect IMO.

    As for your design goal; I don't know if it gives a sense of progression though. I mean, the player doesn't DO anything to gain this progression, and the progression basically just keeps up with the increased saves of monsters he's likely to face. You could probably do better. Sure it's a progression, but if giving your player a sense of progression is your MAIN design goal, you can probably push it a bit and allow the player to feel REALLY good about it. Give him a sense of progression like he's never experienced before!

    Rewards and progressions work best when they feel EARNED. I hope your crafting system does that. 'your numbers increase because, and learn stuff just because' isn't progression, it's a handout.

    If I'd ever get a player who'd show interest in making poisons I'd probably create and add 'Experiment' to my List of Downtimes.

    We have 30-day downtimes every 3-4 sessions where the players can advance their characters in multiple different ways. Using that opportunity cost would allow the player to feel like he's earned his progression and then some.

    (Yeah I'm using your thread as an excuse to create a downtime, sorry. :/)

    Experiment
    You can use your downtime to engineer an alchemical or poisonous concoction, whichever you choose. Choose the rarity of your ingredients, represented by their market value and DC. At the end of your downtime roll an Intelligence ability check using your relevant tool proficiency against your chosen DC. On success, you create 1d4 doses of a concoction determined by the corresponding table. In addition you gain the ability to create a single dose at full market value as a part of a long rest. On fail your experiment fails and you suffer a complication.

    Poisons:
    200gp: DC 12, Table A.
    500gp: DC 15, Table B.
    1500gp: DC 17, Table C.

    Potions:
    Coming soon (tm)

    Poison Table A - Roll 1d6
    1 - Potion of Poison
    2 - Assassin's Blood
    3 - Truth Serum.
    4 - Crawler Mucus
    5- -Drow Poison
    6 - Serpent Venom

    Table B - Roll 1d6
    1 - Pale Tincture
    2 - Malice
    3 - Essence of Ether
    4 - Oil of Taggit
    5 - Dust of Sneezing and Choking
    6 - Burnt Othur Fumes

    Table C - Roll 1d4
    1 - Torpor
    2 - Wyvern Poison
    3 - Midnight Tears
    4 - Purple Worm Poison

    There.
    The 60-or-so% success chance gives the player a sense of difficulty, the gold gives the player a sense of value and the fact that he used 30 days for this gives him a sense of learning, progression and of course the opportunity cost of not having used his downtime for something else. Having the poison be random from a table ensures it is (almost) always worth your money, but really lets the player feel like he's experimenting; he doesn't know what the outcome is until he has the final product in his hands.

    If your main design goal is a sense of progression, this is how I'd do it.


    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-08-26 at 05:51 AM.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Zhorn's Avatar

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    Default Re: Brainstorming: DC of Crafted Poisons

    Progression might be the wrong word choice for what I'm thinking, but I'm drawing a blank on a better term.
    The 'progression' i mean is just a basic form of higher proficiency results in better poisons. For the same cost of crafting (I'm sticking with the half listed cost method) I don't want to scale the damage, but the effectiveness rate seems like a good point to make something stronger without making it just outright more powerful.
    Like how you get to hit more reliably as you level up, having your poisons take effect more reliably seems like a consistent method to follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjarkmundur View Post
    (Yeah I'm using your thread as an excuse to create a downtime, sorry. :/)
    Dude, think nothing of it, I'm sure tid-bits of your work has bled into mine over the last few months
    Call it an even exchange

    I like the direction you're going with yours.
    Though the Carrion Crawler Mucus, Purple Worm Poison, Serpent Venom, and Wyvern Poison wouldn't really make sense to be craftable. But you do have tables all paired up with dice sizes, so why break that over a nitpick.


    My recipes will be either treasure or bought from shady dealers (my players are in Luskan this week, and the rogue is already trying to pool cash for an illegal shopping spree).
    For research, I'll probably let the players attempt to make a custom poison, where I'll decide on dice size and number based in research rolls and the effects they are pairing to it. Probably an on the fly tweak of the DMG rules on custom spell making (p285-286)

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Brainstorming: DC of Crafted Poisons

    Holy ****, its you. I replied even without looking at the username. xD

    ...Hi ^^

    Yeah, I'm familiar with your crafting tweaks, so I know for a fact that gaining levels gives access to new items to craft and you give out schematics as loot. So, sorry about the rant :O.

    The word you're looking for is scaling, and you're doing it right. Good chat! :D

    ...And yeah, In my own games I don't think I'd ever give my players access to that last table without actually going through the trouble of getting the venoms themselves. Crafting them makes no sense, you just have to manage to put it in a bottle without dying (and of course, somehow killing a purple worm) ^^
    Last edited by Bjarkmundur; 2019-08-26 at 10:15 AM.

    Spoiler: How to Make Custom Monsters
    Show

    The damage column shows total damage output on hit over an entire round, and is modified based on factors like recharge, AoE etc.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Brainstorming: Crafting Poisons

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    What formula did you have in mind?
    What DC range would this look like?
    The same as every other creature-created DC in the game. 8 + proficiency + ability (in this case, intelligence)

    It would naturally range from 10 to 19, assume the craftsman never has less than 10 Intelligence.

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