OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread

[Particle_Man]

So do we have to re-evaluate everything Loki said to Hel (or indeed, anyone who isn’t Thor) due to his incapacity for honesty? This also raises the odds that he is stringing his clerics and followers along, actually. Maybe Loki’s followers don’t go to Valhalla at all.

[Dion]

Oh, it’s all Thrym. Totally just him. His pure, unselfish love alone is giving Hel the strength to power through and hustle her way up to Queen of the Northern Pantheon. All hail Good Guy Thrym!

Thrym sounds just like a Mary Sue to me.

Maybe Loki’s followers don’t go to Valhalla at all.

I’m shocked by this. Shocked.

We could tell Hilgya, but she’d probably murder us. So let’s keep it to ourselves.

[The_Weirdo]

So do we have to re-evaluate everything Loki said to Hel (or indeed, anyone who isn’t Thor) due to his incapacity for honesty? This also raises the odds that he is stringing his clerics and followers along, actually. Maybe Loki’s followers don’t go to Valhalla at all.

Not really. Whatever else I think of Hilgya, she arrived at the theory of her own volition. Gods aren't usually in the business of disabusing people of their theories, so Hilhya's theory is still a "maybe".

[Psyren]

EDIT: And also if Loki is literally incapable of telling the truth, I am unclear about how Hilgaya's prayer to learn Durkon's location was answered.

It was definitely still a deception. She asked for Durkon, and he led her to a dangerous vampire that just happened to be driving Durkon's corpse with Durkon's soul riding shotgun without an ounce of warning - and a bad saving throw meant she and her baby almost died in the process. Seems pretty in keeping with Loki if you ask me.

So do we have to re-evaluate everything Loki said to Hel (or indeed, anyone who isn’t Thor) due to his incapacity for honesty? This also raises the odds that he is stringing his clerics and followers along, actually. Maybe Loki’s followers don’t go to Valhalla at all.

And miss another chance to rub it in the faces of Thor's followers? No, I very much believe the "cool lounge upstairs" is a thing.

[Peelee]

Not really. Whatever else I think of Hilgya, she arrived at the theory of her own volition. Gods aren't usually in the business of disabusing people of their theories, so Hilhya's theory is still a "maybe".

If Loki didn't present the theory to her and she came up with it herself, it's significantly more on the side of "self-serving delusion" than "maybe."

[Aetius]

Maybe, but maybe gods are like stars. The bigger the star, the quicker they burn their fuel, the faster they die. Maybe gods of OotS follow the same rule. Strong gods need a lot of fuel to keep going and will burn out without getting more fuel. Weak gods burn their fuel so slowly that they live several orders of magnitude longer. Not that I have evidence for this, but it might be possible. Any god that decides to be a "strong god" would be unable to become a "weak one" and, thus, can't slow down how fast they burn through their power. Perhaps, if there are weak gods, they are non-senient masses of energy with no direction or purpose except to exist as a mass of energy. Without wasting on thought, creation, fighting, partying, etc, they would just last almost indefinitely until something triggered them to ascend or just cause them to decide to be sentient. Again, I have zero idea on how that would work, but it's interesting to think about.

Like discworld's small gods? Could be. But the original theory was that gods may decide to not get involved with a world to protect their identity from being changed by believe. And even if you burn fuel slowly you still burn fuel and your decision to not get involved means you intentionally starve yourself to death. Also you decide to stay small and if being a small god means you are part of a mindless mass of energy you don't really have much of an identity so it would defeat the original point.

More like "I'm sacrificing my daughter so we can use this world to lock away the only thing we're afraid of. If you screw that up and she dies for nothing I will take revenge for that."

He doesn't sacrifice her. If the plan succeeds the world won't end so there's no more risk of her starving to death between worlds and no further risk of the snarl escaping and killing everyone including Hel. So it's for her own good, really.
True, it would keep her malnourished and miserable. But Loki didn't get her in that position to lock away the snarl. So no sacrifice there.

The only thing he is now sacrificing is her scheme to grab supreme power. If the plan fails and the world end's without her plot succeeding it might kill her, but risking her life is not the same as sacrificing her.
So it's not that he doesn't want her to die in vain - he doesn't want her to die period.

[Fyraltari]

Which is why Hel's plan is to destroy the world before the Snarl gets to them. Which, I assume, became SOP after the first few worlds failed. The timing is all they worry about; getting that wrong messes it up.

Standard Operating Procedure?

I fear a very important (if not particularly important to the story) question is being overlooked in this discussion:

Where did Hel *get* that hustle, if she apparently lacked it before to the extent that Loki felt things needed to be seriously spiced up with a crazy bet?
What belief or believers are giving her that extra hustle and motivation (besides one giant demigod who totally believes in her)?

She got it from being backed into a corner. You’d be surprised how resourceful someone can be when desperate.

[Psyren]

Thor mentioned they failed to save the souls a few times too. Presumably some of the lesser gods starved those times, and the resulting follow-up world had to be smaller in scope.

[factotum]

It was definitely still a deception. She asked for Durkon, and he led her to a dangerous vampire that just happened to be driving Durkon's corpse with Durkon's soul riding shotgun without an ounce of warning

Actually, what he did was lead her to a group of people who had as much interest in killing the vampire containing Durkon's soul as she did, which is realistically the best he could have done. If she hadn't been there then the Order would likely have lost to Durkula's minions, and good luck on her ever getting her desired revenge in that case.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Actually, what he did was lead her to a group of people who had as much interest in killing the vampire containing Durkon's soul as she did, which is realistically the best he could have done. If she hadn't been there then the Order would likely have lost to Durkula's minions, and good luck on her ever getting her desired revenge in that case.

maybe there is an exception to followrrs of Loki?

[The_Weirdo]

If Loki didn't present the theory to her and she came up with it herself, it's significantly more on the side of "self-serving delusion" than "maybe."

Is it flimsier than giving dwarves that drank themselves to death a pass on the honor thing?

She got it from being backed into a corner. You’d be surprised or resourceful someone can be when desperate.

The weak, the ones at the bottom, the ones, as you said, backed into a corner replace power with flexibility. And possibly ruthlessness and a specific type of nastiness...

[Quebbster]

Actually, what he did was lead her to a group of people who had as much interest in killing the vampire containing Durkon's soul as she did, which is realistically the best he could have done. If she hadn't been there then the Order would likely have lost to Durkula's minions, and good luck on her ever getting her desired revenge in that case.

The Order featuring Hilgya did lose to Durkula's minions. It was Durkon's memory gambit that won the battle. Hilgya's main practical impact so far is resurrecting Durkon after he talked the vampire into not existing any more.

[woweedd]

Last I checked Loki resided in Pandemonium, which makes him more chaotic than evil. So he might do something for the fun of it, he also might tell the truth if it serves his agenda. He is also not willing to serve the goals of he who wishes the destruction of the universe. (Don't know if I am allowed to say the name of Th****un, so I will not).

Recall Belkar is chaotic evil as well, but has been known to do things to benefit the party as well. I still claim Belkar has moved to chaotic neutral, or at least hovering on the cusp of that.

Yeah, no. I mean, I acknowledge Belkar's getting better: He hasn't done any worse then Chaotic Neutral this whole book. But neither has he truly redeemed. Even moving his needle to CN would require some noticeable acts of repentance, and he's still taken the first shaky step down that road.

Yeah Loki brag about how you're going to totally kick Thor's ass. Because that worked so well all the times in the past you tried to take Thor on.


"I want to save both the mortal world and my daughter!" Truly ultimate evil incarnate.

Next comic Loki shows up doing charity work in orphanages.


Then don't tell the truth.

Lie.

Make up some lie to get in Hel's good side. Nudge/manipulate her to another path besides self-destruction.

Don't just walk away silently.



Not really. Mortals are still the slaves-food, being pulled by the god's strings and if Durkon failed plenty more from where that came from. From what we've seen anybody else from Durkon's clans would do just fine if not better.

And outside that, sure Durkon convinced a vampire to self-destruct, but Hylgia the highest priestess of Loki convinced a Thor cleric to sleep with her on their first night (while Durkon took multiple days) and then killed said Thor's cleric in front of his own party and got away with it. Send Hylgia instead to "negotiate" with Redcloak and she would have the goblin prophet eating out of her hand (if not
other places) in no time.

The point I was making is that, clearly, the relationship between belief and god ain't a one-way street. The mortal's beliefs about the gods change them. PLus, Loki made it pretty clear he doesn't give a **** abot this world, adn would totally be down to kill everyone, were it not for a new opportunity. Plus, ya know, he condemned hundreds of Dwarves to Hle out fo boredom, so...Also, H only convicned Durkon to his own lack of Know: Religion, and the Order only held off on killing her because, ya know, she has Durkon's kid strapped around her neck.

[Werbaer]

A verb cannot mean "something that is X" that is an adjective or a noun.

Verbing weirds language.

[Malphegor]

It's probably important to note that the funny thing about professional liars is that it's hard to know when they're telling the truth, even if they say it's the truth.

[Adeptus]

Great writing, as per usual.

Typically this extremely funny comic is at its best when thing get deadly serious. It's the sign of a great story which doesn't just lean on jokes and gags.

[Goblin_Priest]

Sure, I guess. I'm not sure why you would want to place a number of crows into a mental institution, but hey, you do you.

Those a typically a good place to send people who won't stop crowing. Incidentally, I also hear roosters are a popular therapy tool now, blessing visitors with day-long crows from sunrise to sunset.

[Fyraltari]

Verbing weirds language.

Aaaaaargh!

[Dion]

Aaaaaargh!

Why are you aaaaaarging?

[The Pilgrim]

If people keep abusing verbing in this thread, I'm going to pineapple you all to death.

[KorvinStarmast]

If people keep abusing verbing in this thread, I'm going to pineapple you all to death.

Language informs culture which informs language, all of it wrapped up in a snuggly blanket of environment and change. Philology does an interesting thing as it explores how story, song, culture/heritage, and language are intermeshed. It has taken me a long while to begin to appreciate how philology fits into all of this, but a recent book I read about tying together proto Indo European Languages, the Wheel, horses, and the movements of people got a few things to click as I read through a critical analysis of Tolkien's deep themes in the updated edition of Splintered Light and the influence of Owen Barfield's ideas on the fragmentation of ideas through language, or through linguistic evolution/change.

I finally began to 'get' where Tolkien got his animus from, and Joseph Campbell. It also made me see the Bhagavad Gita in a new light.

[pendell]

* Reads *

Well, the main thing I'm taking from this strip is that Durkon is not going to be perma-stoned for the rest of the comic's run. If Thor is putting his faith in Durkon, this implies that Durkon will have to be un-stoned. They'll either reconvene and properly adjourn the meeting, or they'll find some way to Break Enchantment Durkon out. I think the first. If the dwarves were setting up security procedures I'd expect it to require epic-level magic to dispel. Xykon could do it, and Vaarsuvius in ultimate arcane power mode. But I don't think it's going to be done short of that.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Schroeswald]

* Reads *

Well, the main thing I'm taking from this strip is that Durkon is not going to be perma-stoned for the rest of the comic's run. If Thor is putting his faith in Durkon, this implies that Durkon will have to be un-stoned. They'll either reconvene and properly adjourn the meeting, or they'll find some way to Break Enchantment Durkon out. I think the first. If the dwarves were setting up security procedures I'd expect it to require epic-level magic to dispel. Xykon could do it, and Vaarsuvius in ultimate arcane power mode. But I don't think it's going to be done short of that.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Of course he isn’t, that was a given, the turning to stone is temporary (ending with the meeting), we just need to end the meeting and he’ll be back.

[Resileaf]

Of course he isn’t, that was a given, the turning to stone is temporary (ending with the meeting), we just need to end the meeting and he’ll be back.

Or if the meeting can't be stopped, a simple cast of stone to flesh by V will get things back in order.

[Schroeswald]

Or if the meeting can't be stopped, a simple cast of stone to flesh by V will get things back in order.

Yeah, the defenses probably aren’t epic, because those are rare, and if V was able to level up, if I understand the rules correctly, V would cast an epic level stone to flesh (Blackwing’s stone).

[The MunchKING]

Yeah, the defenses probably aren’t epic, because those are rare, and if V was able to level up, if I understand the rules correctly, V would cast an epic level stone to flesh (Blackwing’s stone).

+1 Caster Level =/= Epic.

Epic is a higher tier thing. An ordinary spell cast by a Level 21 Caster is pretty much the same as the same spell cast by a level 19 caster.

[Schroeswald]

+1 Caster Level =/= Epic.

Epic is a higher tier thing. An ordinary spell cast by a Level 21 Caster is pretty much the same as the same spell cast by a level 19 caster.

I guess I’m wrong then, I’ve never played D&D so my knowledge comes from these forums mostly.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Of course he isn’t, that was a given, the turning to stone is temporary (ending with the meeting), we just need to end the meeting and he’ll be back.

Given or not, Pendell has previously expressed the hope that Durkon would be essentially written out of the final book of the OotS saga by dint of having him remain in statue form.

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

Given or not, Pendell has previously expressed the hope that Durkon would be essentially written out of the final book of the OotS saga by dint of having him remain in statue form.

Grey Wolf

I remember, and I find it just as ridiculous as ever (because not a single member of the Order will ever leave the strip until the final battle where Belkar and maybe V and doubtfully Durkon will die).

[a_flemish_guy]

So do we have to re-evaluate everything Loki said to Hel (or indeed, anyone who isn’t Thor) due to his incapacity for honesty? This also raises the odds that he is stringing his clerics and followers along, actually. Maybe Loki’s followers don’t go to Valhalla at all.

well, that at least some loki's followers end up in hel's domain was confirmed a few strips ago
"hardly any of these are mine anyway"

now this could mean that these one's strayed from loki's path to get there, or it could mean that loki barely has any followers amongst the dwarves and those that follow his teachings end up with hel