The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #361
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    There's a lot of talk about Jedi dogmatism, but it's not really borne out in what we see.

    Qui Gon is something of a rebellious Jedi, but he's still regarded with respect, and his crazy claims about chosen ones and Sith are taken seriously.

    Dooku straight up left the Jedi order and became the figurehead of a separatist movement, and the Jedi Council still held him in high regard, and no apparent stigma. They only drew the line on discovering an active plot to invade the republic with military force.

    Jedi votes often end up in split decisions, Yoda can be and is outvoted on occasion. Anakin is accepted against dogma.

    They draw the line at violence, as most people do, but otherwise welcome divergent opinions from everything we see.

  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Rey taking the books is completely in line with her character and personality. Who she is, is a legend obsessed fangirl. She defines herself and her view of the universe on things that the heroes of the past did. And if one of those heroes won't help her, she'll take the next best thing, the books. After all Luke's not using them.

    So there is a plot and storytelling reason for her to take them.
    Ironically, this coincides with Kylo Ren's story arc of a legend-obsessed fanboy who's crazy about Darth Vader's mask. The two share much in common in this sense, of young people anxious to recover the magic of the past.

    Which is almost enough to make me care about the franchise again, but Ep. 9 is going to have to be really, really good.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Annehn View Post
    I seriously don't care alot about the SW universe anymore.. the first two movies were sooooo long! And the content was pretty average.
    Uh.. which two are you talking about? The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones? A New Hope and the Empire Strikes back? The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    I was talking about his character in the last movie,
    Really not sure what point you thought you were making there then. I should think I've made it quite clear that I have no respect for how they handled Luke's character in TLJ, so reiterating what it was seems kind of pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    And honestly every alternative I've seen fans come up for what they should do with Luke is just so boring...it's basically he's this uber mega powerful jedi that solves all the problems in the movie and has no flaws whatsoever, even though the only thing consistent in this franchise is that the jedi are always doomed to be their own worst enemies.
    It seems to me that you're simply inserting that yourself where it isn't. Certainly neither I nor anyone else that I've seen in this thread has suggested that at all. There's a massive gap between Luke being a failure who gave up the first time something went badly wrong and him being flawless and solving everything easily, and criticizing TLJ for actually giving us the former in no way implies desiring the latter.

    Also, I should add, even if I agreed with you that the alternatives proposed by myself or others were boring, that would still be far preferable to The Last Jedi. I'd rather have a boring Star Wars film than a bad one. That's pretty much why I consider The Force Awakens a better movie than The Last Jedi, in fact - aside from smaller plotholes that could have been papered over and my personal great dislike for Kylo Ren and the handling of the final fight between him and Rey, the worst I can say about TFA is that it's disappointingly mediocre and rehashy. Which is far better than the worst I can say about The Last Jedi.
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  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    He couldn't bring himself to kill him. Obi is very reluctant through that whole duel, he rarely goes on the offensive and seems to need to psych himself up first.
    That may've just be just a matter of battle tactics. Anakin was pretty agressive and has an huge midchlorian count force potential. Obi most probably couldn't beat him in a head-on assault even if he tried, so instead he plays defensively, wait for Anakin to overextend himself and then punish him for it. Even taunts his ex-disciple to attack when disadvantageous "You can't beat me, I have the higher ground".

    And when Anakin finally falls for the taunt and overextends himself, Obi takes full advantage to literally chop his ex-disciple into pieces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I don't really feel that Luke triumphed where the old Jedi order failed. He had an avenue open to him that they didn't. Palpatine's policy is 'try to turn inexperienced Jedi, if they don't turn, kill them'. He knows Yoda and Obi will never turn, so he'd just kill them off the bat, and he'd never let them get anywhere near him. If Obi Wan surrenders to Imperial forces, Palpy just orders his execution, he doesn't summon him to his throne room.
    Palpatine's policy was also getting the inexperienced jedis with most potential. Again Anakin had an huge midchlorian count force potential, he wasn't just your average rookie. Obi was probably above average but still no "chosen one" material.

    Yoda in the other hand has an huge midchlorian count force potential, and Yoda actually gets all close and personal with Palpatine, but Palpatine proves superior. But then lets Yoda get away. So he probably was trying to corrupt Yoda too, because why would Palpatine ever allow Yoda to get so close in the first place? He certainly would've had warning, he could've run away, or summon a trillion guards to back him up, but no, just wait for Yoda to come closer then personal lightsaber duel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The PT Jedi are extraordinarily unlucky, they make basically all the correct calls, but Palpatine's just that good. Qui Gonn's dying promise forces Obi to take on Anakin's training, and it all goes downhill from there.
    Like Saintheart points out, even if Obi wanted to honor his dead master, all it would've taken would be the jedi council just sticking to their laws and going "no, nope, niet, non, nopenopenopenopenope".

    Maybe Palpatine would've still got Anakin as his personal apprentice, but then at least he wouldn't have an insider in the jedi ranks.

    Although the true mastermind behind everything, always by Obi and Anakin's side, was of course Darth Jar Jar, who never got uncovered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Re Alternative Luke storylines, the easy one is that he's training new Jedi secretly, in hiding after his last school was destroyed. Apparently the NR didn't do anything after the first massacre, why would he trust anyone this time?

    It's not clear if he did leave the map, Lor San Tekka could have just discovered where the 1st Jedi temple was independently, and R2, as Luke's droid, had his navigational data.

    Re: the first massacre, we still have very little context for that. We don't know why Luke felt the need to read his mind in his sleep. We also don't know for certain that Kylo did kill the other students, as we only get Luke's perspective from under the hut. Maybe Snoke's forces arrived and burned everything or something. We really should know more about the most pivotal scene in the plot.

    Luke's plot nearly works in TLJ. The problem is that he dies at the end. I'm not saying that because I can't bear for Luke to be flawed, but because it flies in the face of the film's two core themes.

    'Learn from failure': Luke does, and this results in his death.

    '(Don't) kill the past': Luke ends up dead, the last link to the past (except for the books, but very easy to miss and almost worse, 'we have the books now, we don't need you anymore, die, old man.'
    Secret jedi school would be interesting.

    Indeed if Luke found the temple, then it means there would be clues that other people could follow.

    Good point about the first massacre, although since Snoke died right away...

    To be fair if Luke could just force projection halfway accross the galaxy nilly-willy, that would be a game changer. Notice how he actually physically interacted with his sister so he basically could choose his level of interactivity and everything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    That was Qui Gon.

    See also

    Obi Wan Kenobi: I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you.
    "You've failed me for the last time"

    Nice that Obi admits his mistake, that's an important step, but not of much use by itself if he doesn't actually do much to try to fix it besides "I crippled my disciple, let's leave him behind stewing his anger and hope nobody comes along and gives him a bunch of prosthetics so he may let out his rage upon the galaxy".

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    I completely agree. My issue is with this strange, memetastic idea that the PT shows the Jedi are a 'orrible, dastardly group of people destined for destruction. That's a gross mischaracterisation of how the PT portrays the Jedi, and as I keep saying, the only reason the Jedi do catalyse their own destruction is because they disobey their longstanding, presumably-ancient Code and take Anakin on for training.

    But we've got nothing to worry about in that space, because Rey knows everything in the magic books she stole for no apparent reason, although even Yoda giggles after wielding Mjolnir and pronouncing they weren't exactly page-turners.
    Sure, Luke failed miserably at being a teacher despite having made it to general of an army and even able to redeem a Sith Lord, but by the third movie Rey will surely have a super happy productive jedi school.

    Then Darth Jar Jar emerges from the shadows, backstabs her, and the sith students kneel before their true Lord.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    There really wasn't a problem with training Anakin. The problem was the whole jedi idea of completely separating people from their families to be raised in the weird monastaries. If they'd just freed his mother and brought her to Coriscant most of the problems would have been solved.
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Ironically, this coincides with Kylo Ren's story arc of a legend-obsessed fanboy who's crazy about Darth Vader's mask. The two share much in common in this sense, of young people anxious to recover the magic of the past.

    Which is almost enough to make me care about the franchise again, but Ep. 9 is going to have to be really, really good.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    It's not irony, it's pretty much the main themes of the characters. Rey and Ben are both representations of different sides of the Starwars Fandom.
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Then Darth Jar Jar emerges from the shadows, backstabs her, and the sith students kneel before their true Lord.

  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Like Saintheart points out, even if Obi wanted to honor his dead master, all it would've taken would be the jedi council just sticking to their laws and going "no, nope, niet, non, nopenopenopenopenope".

    Maybe Palpatine would've still got Anakin as his personal apprentice, but then at least he wouldn't have an insider in the jedi ranks.
    To be fair, right in that scene from The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan Kenobi says, right to Yoda's face, that he will train Anakin "...without the approval of the Council if I must." So even if the Council had stuck to their guns, Obi-Wan might well have been thrown out of the Order and gone on to train Anakin there instead. I'm not sure whether Obi-Wan's promise comes down to duty or whether it's a manifestation of that same problem - attachment - that the Jedi were so set against.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    There really wasn't a problem with training Anakin. The problem was the whole jedi idea of completely separating people from their families to be raised in the weird monastaries. If they'd just freed his mother and brought her to Coriscant most of the problems would have been solved.
    Not necessarily. Anakin's problem was one of attachment, and that problem was in place before Qui-Gon arrived on Tatooine. "Give me the boy for the first 7 years of his life and I will show you the man"; Anakin was about 9 years old when he was brought into the Order, was a slave, and given the way Hutts seem to treat their slaves of a female, semi-mammalian extraction, it's probably against board rules to speculate what he'd already seen his mother had done to her with him helpless to do anything about it. Anakin when we first encounter him is already having dreams of being a Jedi and coming back to free all the slaves: dreams are the way the mind or psyche deals with real-life anxieties or situations, so Anakin is already focused - as a child, when he's most impressionable - on his powerlessness, which generates rage later on.

    It's a matter of fanfiction speculation, but had Anakin's mother gone to Coruscant, I imagine Palpatine would have arranged her murder and fixed the circumstances such that Anakin couldn't investigate without going against the Jedi Order's precepts, i.e. set him up in a position of helpless rage as he was on Tatooine. That would have resulted in the same problem, just in a different context.

  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Nice that Obi admits his mistake, that's an important step, but not of much use by itself if he doesn't actually do much to try to fix it besides "I crippled my disciple, let's leave him behind stewing his anger and hope nobody comes along and gives him a bunch of prosthetics so he may let out his rage upon the galaxy".
    Look at it from Obi-Wan's perspective: Who's going to come to Anakin/Vader's rescue? Palpatine's about the only one who both knows approximately where Anakin/Vader is and might have cause to come to his aid, but Yoda went off to kill Palpatine and Anakin/Vader is currently busy burning alive missing three of his limbs next to a bursty river of lava rather than being some place vaguely sensible on the hellworld, so unless Palpatine personally comes soon or unless Palpatine had some agents keeping an eye on Anakin/Vader who are willing to risk attempting to rescue him nobody ought to find Anakin/Vader before the only thing that can be done for him is to put him in a box and bury him. Also, Vader isn't uniquely valuable as a symbol once he's no longer recognizable as Anakin, and Palpatine doesn't have a particularly good track record when it comes to loyalty to his minions - and you'd think that Obi-Wan ought to know that Palpatine encouraged Anakin to summarily execute Dooku, since Anakin was pretty clearly troubled by it at the time and that's the sort of thing that supposed close friends would discuss in confidence with one another even if Anakin elected not to bring it up at whatever debriefing they had. Surely the self-declared Emperor and head of an organization that values personal skill, strength and success while despising weakness and failure has better things to do with his time than saving the life of some loser who got himself crippled by a notionally-weaker opponent and can't even offer the value of Anakin's reputation now that he's burned beyond recognition, even if Yoda doesn't kill him before he has a chance to make the effort.

    Some forsaken embankment next to an active river of lava on a hellworld like Mustafar isn't exactly a high-traffic area; nobody's just going to drop by and save Anakin.

  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    There really wasn't a problem with training Anakin. The problem was the whole jedi idea of completely separating people from their families to be raised in the weird monastaries. If they'd just freed his mother and brought her to Coriscant most of the problems would have been solved.
    Would it? Palpatine could turn Anakin even against Padme and she was a veteran politician and leader. His mother being nearby could've just as easily been used to manipulate him even faster. "Oh my that Palpatine is such a nice gentleman, but those jedi sure seem more suspicious every day. You would protect me from the big bad jedi if trouble ever came that way, wouldn't you sweetie?"

    Or as Saintheart suggested, make sure she suffered an "accident" and blame it on the jedi, or just to fuel Anakin's rage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    To be fair, right in that scene from The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan Kenobi says, right to Yoda's face, that he will train Anakin "...without the approval of the Council if I must." So even if the Council had stuck to their guns, Obi-Wan might well have been thrown out of the Order and gone on to train Anakin there instead. I'm not sure whether Obi-Wan's promise comes down to duty or whether it's a manifestation of that same problem - attachment - that the Jedi were so set against.
    That was just a bigger sign of trouble from the start. If nothing else, it means Anakin the chosen one with huge midchlorian count force potential was gonna be mentored by somebody who's about rebelling against the system.

    They could've bartered "ok we'll train that kid, but somebody more cool-headed will be his master".

    Or they could've expelled Obi and found some other home for the kid. I'm pretty sure Obi didn't fill any doption papers or anything so he had no actual legal rights to the child and would be a criminal to be hunted down if he just ran away with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    Look at it from Obi-Wan's perspective: Who's going to come to Anakin/Vader's rescue? Palpatine's about the only one who both knows approximately where Anakin/Vader is and might have cause to come to his aid, but Yoda went off to kill Palpatine and Anakin/Vader is currently busy burning alive missing three of his limbs next to a bursty river of lava rather than being some place vaguely sensible on the hellworld, so unless Palpatine personally comes soon or unless Palpatine had some agents keeping an eye on Anakin/Vader who are willing to risk attempting to rescue him nobody ought to find Anakin/Vader before the only thing that can be done for him is to put him in a box and bury him. Also, Vader isn't uniquely valuable as a symbol once he's no longer recognizable as Anakin, and Palpatine doesn't have a particularly good track record when it comes to loyalty to his minions - and you'd think that Obi-Wan ought to know that Palpatine encouraged Anakin to summarily execute Dooku, since Anakin was pretty clearly troubled by it at the time and that's the sort of thing that supposed close friends would discuss in confidence with one another even if Anakin elected not to bring it up at whatever debriefing they had. Surely the self-declared Emperor and head of an organization that values personal skill, strength and success while despising weakness and failure has better things to do with his time than saving the life of some loser who got himself crippled by a notionally-weaker opponent and can't even offer the value of Anakin's reputation now that he's burned beyond recognition, even if Yoda doesn't kill him before he has a chance to make the effort.

    Some forsaken embankment next to an active river of lava on a hellworld like Mustafar isn't exactly a high-traffic area; nobody's just going to drop by and save Anakin.
    A fair argument, but it's missing a couple key points.

    First the Dark Side of the Force, which is fueled by rage, hate, pain, and stuff. All things that Anakin would be radiating at max power as he slowly stewed to death, and basically make him a beacon for Palpatine's dark force senses. And sure he may've fluked against Obi, but otherwise Anakin had a pretty long list of successes, including proving his loyalty to Palpatine by butchering jedi kids on command and even turning against his wife. So even if plan Anakin had suffered a bit of a setback, he still had plenty of potential. Just give him some shiny new metal limbs and all that rage, hate, pain and stuff would still be there stronger than ever to fuel Anakin's dark side powers. Minions with the potential of Anakin simply aren't that easy to replace.

    Second, this was big boss Palpatine who we are talking about, 4D chess grandmaster, who managed to manipulate a whole galaxy to his whims. You really can't afford to show any openings against such an opponent, you can't let any loose ties. If Palpatine considered Anakin to be worthy of being his disciple, then he's also worthy of neing lightsaber'd until he's no longer breathing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-09-17 at 02:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  12. - Top - End - #372
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    At this point, we're basically complaining that Obi didn't watch the OT prior to making his choices.

    That may've just be just a matter of battle tactics. Anakin was pretty agressive and has an huge midchlorian count force potential. Obi most probably couldn't beat him in a head-on assault even if he tried, so instead he plays defensively, wait for Anakin to overextend himself and then punish him for it. Even taunts his ex-disciple to attack when disadvantageous "You can't beat me, I have the higher ground".
    Maybe, but doubtful. Obi is reluctant all the way, down to trying to find an excuse not to do it to Yoda. The taunt isn't necessary, he can push him off the platform into lava, but he genuinely seems to not want to have to do it. "Don't try it." isn't some triumphant taunt, he sounds more sad and regretful than anything else.

    Palpatine's policy was also getting the inexperienced jedis with most potential. Again Anakin had an huge midchlorian count force potential, he wasn't just your average rookie. Obi was probably above average but still no "chosen one" material.

    Yoda in the other hand has an huge midchlorian count force potential, and Yoda actually gets all close and personal with Palpatine, but Palpatine proves superior. But then lets Yoda get away. So he probably was trying to corrupt Yoda too, because why would Palpatine ever allow Yoda to get so close in the first place? He certainly would've had warning, he could've run away, or summon a trillion guards to back him up, but no, just wait for Yoda to come closer then personal lightsaber duel.
    The first thing Palps does is express surprise that Yoda survived, then he tries to flee as soon as Yoda fights back. A the first opportunity, he summons guards, and orders them to double the search when he realises Yoda's alive. He doesn't let him get close, or let him get away, he's just unable to prevent it.

    ike Saintheart points out, even if Obi wanted to honor his dead master, all it would've taken would be the jedi council just sticking to their laws and going "no, nope, niet, non, nopenopenopenopenope".

    Maybe Palpatine would've still got Anakin as his personal apprentice, but then at least he wouldn't have an insider in the jedi ranks.
    Obi's clear that Anakin is getting trained regardless, the Council makes the best of a bad situation by going 'ok, we don't like it, but if that's how it's going to be we'll support you as best we can.'

    We don't know a whole lot about Coruscanti adoption law, but it seems like the Jedi actually don't have any rights to Anakin -he was Qui Gon's 'ward', and therefore they couldn't stop him from going back to Naboo.

    Psychologically, it's probably not good for Anakin to be passed around like a toy nobody wants. If they force him to train with someone else, he'll probably resent it, which is a bad way for him to start out.

    If Schmi is brought to Coruscant, Palps probably just arranges her death much sooner.

    [quote]Anakin was Obi-Wan's responsibility, and when he falls to the dark side Obi-Wan just goes " not my fault, not my problem anymore", and then Palpatine gets himself his uber sith servant.

    I still feel that training Anakin wasn't a mistake, the whole only training kinder gardeners was a rather stupid last minute retcon. It made far more sense in the original draft where anakin was 17 but even then it didn't sit well with me. The downfall of the jedi was because of their dogmatic view of the world/
    What dogmatic view? The training ages are just lifted from traditional Knight training, the Youngling/Padawan/Knight progression just follows the Page/Squire/Knight progression of traditional chivalry, it doesn't come from nowhere.

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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    The jedi training from the young age is for a casting reason not a narritive one. Originally Anakin was supposed to be 16 in Phantom Menace. But when Lucas changed the age of the character to get a younger actor it forced him to also lower the age at which the jedi started training. And it's a change that added in a bunch of other bad implications.
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    The jedi training from the young age is for a casting reason not a narritive one. Originally Anakin was supposed to be 16 in Phantom Menace. But when Lucas changed the age of the character to get a younger actor it forced him to also lower the age at which the jedi started training. And it's a change that added in a bunch of other bad implications.
    I'm not sure that arguing RAW vs. RAI on a film actually gets us anywhere. Start going down that road and we end up arguing that the only reason Aragorn son of Arathorn had a beard in Lord of the Rings was because Nicolas Cage turned the role down. Or that Rey was only in TFA because someone corporate insisted on a female protagonist, and none of us want that, now, do we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    I'm not sure that arguing RAW vs. RAI on a film actually gets us anywhere. Start going down that road and we end up arguing that the only reason Aragorn son of Arathorn had a beard in Lord of the Rings was because Nicolas Cage turned the role down. Or that Rey was only in TFA because someone corporate insisted on a female protagonist, and none of us want that, now, do we?
    Production reasoning for choices a film maker makes is actually my favorite way to discuss a story. It's facinating in discussing why things are the way they are. There are just issues with how sometimes production and narritive clash .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Production reasoning for choices a film maker makes is actually my favorite way to discuss a story. It's facinating in discussing why things are the way they are. There are just issues with how sometimes production and narritive clash .
    Yes, but metagaming the story doesn't render the story invalid. As said, the story still works because it then matches a fairly common historical analogue: that of the child apprentice, i.e. the squire, or sometimes the second child of a family given to become a monk.

    Slightly off topic, but here's a more interesting question and which might have generated a bit more controversy, made the subject a bit more interesting: suppose the Jedi Council's objection had been that Anakin was too young to begin the training, and Qui-Gon's argument had been that they had to get him at an early age because such a powerful source of Force strength was unstable if they didn't ingrain the right habits in him from an early age? (Would have made for an interesting contrast with ESB, too: remember there that Yoda objects that Luke is too old to begin the training as well.)

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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Yes, but metagaming the story doesn't render the story invalid. As said, the story still works because it then matches a fairly common historical analogue: that of the child apprentice, i.e. the squire, or sometimes the second child of a family given to become a monk.

    Slightly off topic, but here's a more interesting question and which might have generated a bit more controversy, made the subject a bit more interesting: suppose the Jedi Council's objection had been that Anakin was too young to begin the training, and Qui-Gon's argument had been that they had to get him at an early age because such a powerful source of Force strength was unstable if they didn't ingrain the right habits in him from an early age? (Would have made for an interesting contrast with ESB, too: remember there that Yoda objects that Luke is too old to begin the training as well.)
    The thing is that we're both metagaming. You're metagaming by using historical precedent that is not in truth connected to the universe or culture we're discussing. It's all really the same.
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    Made me wonder why not have Rey be the former Storm Trooper instead of Finn if you aren't going to treat that properly?

    Finn as the scavenger who grew up learning about Han Solo making them meeting even more important.

    I still wonder why they didn't reveal Snoke as a former Inquisitor representing their own order representing the new threat former prequel Jedi trained to hunt Luke's recruits.

    They're not Sith and means Anakin actually completed his mission so we can move on and develop something better.

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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless View Post
    Made me wonder why not have Rey be the former Storm Trooper instead of Finn if you aren't going to treat that properly?
    It certainly would've been a bit more consistent with Daisy Ridley's automaton-ish acting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless View Post
    I still wonder why they didn't reveal Snoke as a former Inquisitor representing their own order representing the new threat former prequel Jedi trained to hunt Luke's recruits.

    They're not Sith and means Anakin actually completed his mission so we can move on and develop something better.
    This is to metagame it, leaving aside the eye-bleeding horror of a story that TLJ left us, but: that idea would have been kiboshed by Disney on two grounds (and note that this is what Disney likely believes, which makes whether it's objectively true or not entirely irrelevant):
    (1) It's too complicated a plot for an IQ-90 moviegoer to understand, and the ST is aimed at IQ-90 people. We absolutely have to have something that is less than two neuron connections away from a carbon copy of the Star Wars saga; we can't have original ideas or any concrete suggestion that someone other than a Sith might have a problem with the Jedi. We can't even give Snoke a historical connection even if it's to distinguish him from the Sith, because....
    (2) We are making something new here, dammit! Stop giving Ian McDiarmid or Mark Hamill walk-up opportunities to wring a few more six-figure appearances out of us in flashback scenes, we want to bulldoze all that OT nonsense and set up something newer! Better! Fresher! More Relevant! Ooops, except we forgot something: if you're going to grind the mythology into the dirt, don't be surprised if that mythology or even the iconography can't support the tepid material you serve up in substitution for it.

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    Inquisitors might be from Legends but Star Wars Rebels made it canon.

    Actually using a Disney Star Wars animated series as backup for their canon would have had people buying more of that series.

    Can't help thinking that they were recruited mostly from near human or alien species with the Empire being so human centric it wouldn't stretch things that they infiltrated the New Republic helped fan the flames against the "Imperial humans" which would explain Leia being kicked out despite her war record.

    Using that tracker from Rebels and explain it off as the New Republic tagging all their ships to avoid a Rebel Alliance rising against them which is why Leia's Resistance was so poorly funded.

    Then have Han return to smuggling to help fund Leia's Resistance and you have a better explanation for what's going on.

    If I can do that wth is wrong with their story group?!!!

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    I'm glad that Snoke wasn't a Sith and that he wasn't an apprentice. The concept of him being an outsider coming in to unite the fractured remains of the Empire, but not the whole empire, just those that had become lost and searching for someone anyone to lead them.

    Knowing that he was just this cult leader styled old man preying on their hopes for a return to glory was what made him compelling to me.

    If he was just a Sith, or Inquisitor or yet another secret apprentice of Palpatine that would have been just dull and boring to me.

    We know that you don't need to be a Sith or a Jedi to use the force, so it was good having a villain that was neither of those.
    Last edited by Devonix; 2019-09-19 at 07:44 AM.
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    For any fans of alternative story gag dubs, Auralnauts just released their first Sequels music video. (Which probably means their next episode will arrive soon.)
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I'm glad that Snoke wasn't a Sith and that he wasn't an apprentice. The concept of him being an outsider coming in to unite the fractured remains of the Empire, but not the whole empire, just those that had become lost and searching for someone anyone to lead them.

    Knowing that he was just this cult leader styled old man preying on their hopes for a return to glory was what made him compelling to me.

    If he was just a Sith, or Inquisitor or yet another secret apprentice of Palpatine that would have been just dull and boring to me.

    We know that you don't need to be a Sith or a Jedi to use the force, so it was good having a villain that was neither of those.
    Um, but we don't know any of that. They never elaborated on who or what Snoke was, besides a dark side force-user and the guy who corrupted and trained Kylo. He may or may not have been Sith, may or may not have been something else we've never heard of before, may or may not have been some kind of cult leader - he's a total blank slate villain. And probably going to remain that way forever at this point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Um, but we don't know any of that. They never elaborated on who or what Snoke was, besides a dark side force-user and the guy who corrupted and trained Kylo. He may or may not have been Sith, may or may not have been something else we've never heard of before, may or may not have been some kind of cult leader - he's a total blank slate villain. And probably going to remain that way forever at this point.
    the first Order in design isn't a government it's a cult. Therefore he's a cult leader, It's in his actions his design, and behavior.

    As for being a Sith, or not. They haven't said he's a Sith, he's never mentioned or talked about Sith or Sith ideals. So him being a Sith is pretty much just speculation based on some people wanting him to be one.
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    the first Order in design isn't a government it's a cult. Therefore he's a cult leader, It's in his actions his design, and behavior.

    As for being a Sith, or not. They haven't said he's a Sith, he's never mentioned or talked about Sith or Sith ideals. So him being a Sith is pretty much just speculation based on some people wanting him to be one.
    The First Order being a cult is purely speculation as well. So is pretty much anything when it comes to Snoke and how he handled leading the First Order, because they didn't bother to show or explain almost anything to do with the subject.
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    The jedi training from the young age is for a casting reason not a narritive one. Originally Anakin was supposed to be 16 in Phantom Menace. But when Lucas changed the age of the character to get a younger actor it forced him to also lower the age at which the jedi started training. And it's a change that added in a bunch of other bad implications.
    Is there more information on this? I mean, things change in drafts all the time, it's how a lot of writing processes work.

    Sort of, but they're the kind of implications that lead to Pokemon being a dystopia built on the back of child labour and animal cruelty. At some point you have to let go.



    Slightly off topic, but here's a more interesting question and which might have generated a bit more controversy, made the subject a bit more interesting: suppose the Jedi Council's objection had been that Anakin was too young to begin the training, and Qui-Gon's argument had been that they had to get him at an early age because such a powerful source of Force strength was unstable if they didn't ingrain the right habits in him from an early age? (Would have made for an interesting contrast with ESB, too: remember there that Yoda objects that Luke is too old to begin the training as well.)
    That kind of makes Yoda seem silly 'Begin training at 13 years, 3 months, 6 days, and three hours, Jedi must. Exceptions there are not.'

    The thing is that we're both metagaming. You're metagaming by using historical precedent that is not in truth connected to the universe or culture we're discussing. It's all really the same.
    Fair point, but knight/monk training starting young is not something George Lucas improvised out of nowhere, it's not some last second addition that doesn't add up. As soon as I heard the word 'knight', I assumed from the start it was a lifelong training process.

    Snoke isn't a Sith, they've been stressing that, but he doesn't really do anything to distinguish himself from the Sith. Kylo talks about letting old things like the Sith die, while doing the Sithiest thing ever -killing your master, becoming the master, and trying to take a new apprentice.

    Snoke is fine as 'some guy from the Unknown regions', really. I can't remember where I heard this, but as far as I can tell the story goes:

    Palpatine sends Imps into the UR. Snoke finds them when lost, and helps them navigate, then uses his clout to run a coup. Which is all fine. I don't want him to be an inquisitor or a Sith apprentice. But if he's not a Sith, we needed to see some differences in ideology.

    He has a different leadership style -Palpatine liked to play down his powers, appear weaker than he was, Snoke feels the need to dominate his subordinates at every turn, but in terms of ideology I don't know what the difference is.

    I may have said this before, but my big question going into 9 is

    Spoiler
    Show
    What's at stake?

    The Resistance is effectively destroyed, the republic is destroyed, Starkiller base is destroyed.

    The leads have nothing left to lose, except their lives.

    The FO have lost their planet destroying capability, so that's out. There's nothing they can threaten that can have an impact on the leads.

    Rey has no particular bond with the people she grew up around on Jakku, Finn and Poe have already lost everything they care about. What can the FO threaten to give emotional weight to the story?

    Last edited by Sapphire Guard; 2019-09-19 at 07:28 PM.

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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    the first Order in design isn't a government it's a cult. Therefore he's a cult leader, It's in his actions his design, and behavior.
    Valiant effort to supplement the movie with information but if Snoke actually built a cult of personality about himself why is everyone hunky-dory with Kylo taking over the first order under questionable circumstances.

    Surely a cult following would have a serious breakdown over the loss of it's leader. Hux could arrange to not be in the exact same walker as Kylo and blast his butt from behind. Review some holotapes. Investigate the fact Rey was an unarmed prisoner and the only person in possession of a lightsaber in the room at the time of the assassination of THE SUPREME LEADER was Kylo.

    None of that happens. No matter how you try to patch it up TLJ just doesn't work.

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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobb View Post
    Valiant effort to supplement the movie with information but if Snoke actually built a cult of personality about himself why is everyone hunky-dory with Kylo taking over the first order under questionable circumstances.

    Surely a cult following would have a serious breakdown over the loss of it's leader. Hux could arrange to not be in the exact same walker as Kylo and blast his butt from behind. Review some holotapes. Investigate the fact Rey was an unarmed prisoner and the only person in possession of a lightsaber in the room at the time of the assassination of THE SUPREME LEADER was Kylo.

    None of that happens. No matter how you try to patch it up TLJ just doesn't work.
    We don't know that Kylo Ren has taken over the first order. The time between Snoke's Death and the end of the film is what? An hour or so? I could and do expect a serious fracturing of the First order followed by Snokes death since Hux is the head of the military and most certainly doesn't like or support Kylo Ren. As well as no one in the first Order actually likeing Kylo.
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    We don't know that Kylo Ren has taken over the first order. The time between Snoke's Death and the end of the film is what? An hour or so? I could and do expect a serious fracturing of the First order followed by Snokes death since Hux is the head of the military and most certainly doesn't like or support Kylo Ren. As well as no one in the first Order actually likeing Kylo.
    I seem to remember Hux enthusiastically re-shouting Kylo's orders to his military rather shortly after the man Hux "doesn't like or support" took over the First Order upon waking up from a lightsaber explosion or something. (And even that scene on the salt planet was played for laughs, emphasising how deeply Hux has fallen into obsequious servant territory. Same tone-deaf direction as the first scene of TLJ, featuring Star Wars' first ever 'Yo Mamma' joke. I had thought the humour in Star Wars had bottomed out with Episode One's flatulence jokes, but clearly Rian Johnson subverted my expectations there as well. I am eagerly awaiting Rey to rebuke the Big Bad of the next film with "Up your nose with a rubber hose.")

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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    I seem to remember Hux enthusiastically re-shouting Kylo's orders to his military rather shortly after the man Hux "doesn't like or support" took over the First Order upon waking up from a lightsaber explosion or something. (And even that scene on the salt planet was played for laughs, emphasising how deeply Hux has fallen into obsequious servant territory. Same tone-deaf direction as the first scene of TLJ, featuring Star Wars' first ever 'Yo Mamma' joke. I had thought the humour in Star Wars had bottomed out with Episode One's flatulence jokes, but clearly Rian Johnson subverted my expectations there as well. I am eagerly awaiting Rey to rebuke the Big Bad of the next film with "Up your nose with a rubber hose.")
    Hux's first impulse upon seeing Kylo Ren vulnerable was to prepare to execute him. He only held back because he knew he'd be killed in a direct confrontation. He served Kylo Ren out of fear, he served Snoke because of indoctrination and loyalty.

    " You presume to command my army, The supreme leader is dead we have no ruler! "
    He submits because he knows in this moment he'd be killed.

    Hux is the one to order the walkers to stop their firing, he flat out backtalks him in front of the other soldiers on the command ship.

    Kylo Ren' been made to look even more the fool by fighting an illusion in front of all of his troops and allowing the resistance to escape.

    In both Force Awakens, and Last Jedi it's established that the military doesn't support or even like Kylo Ren. And the most likely outcome is an uneasy truce to keep things in order with Hux as the Starscream like character trying to bring down Ren He's got more to fear from his own men than he does from the Resistance.
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