The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I want to see what happens when the caretakers find out that their most sacred shrine has been looted and burned. They most likely assume it was Rey, if she ever goes back to Atch-To she'll be torn to pieces.
    Ya know, I never even thought about that.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Characters finding exactly who they need, the best of the best in unexpected places is a trope of the pulp adventure genre as old as the genre, as old as fiction itself. It's something that exists in most stories of the type. How many D&D adventures have you been in where the characters meet a contact or master locksmith, or other such while locked in a prison together, or such. Hell I've used the trope myself as a way of tricking my players into trusting someone they shouldn't.

    I was just surprised that they'd use that trick against me in a Starwars movie. Something that's usually safe and simple. I fell for my own trick I've used myself and was glad of it because it showed me that this franchise could still do something clever.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    How many D&D adventures have you been in where the characters meet a contact or master locksmith, or other such while locked in a prison together, or such.
    None, because being handed the solution to a problem is bad storytelling and neither I nor any of my friends have tried to pull that.

    Everything about DJ was ridiculous except the betrayal, which was painfully obvious. He even was able to pinpoint exactly where Finn and Poe were during the space-horse escape, despite the fleet of police patrols with searchlights, who were actively following them, not knowing anything but their general area.

    If the deconstruction was supposed to be "look how patently stupid this kind of thing is," then a better idea would be to not put something that stupid in the movie to begin with, because the movie sure as hell suffered for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    I don't think its necessarily all that implausible that they luck into meeting a skilled thief in a super rich area. Its a tempting target, and all the unskilled thieves will have been caught. The intended subversion was, I think, supposed to be that you cant deliberately replicate things like what happened in ANH, you have to play the hand youre dealt and try to work with that, not just assume a miracle will come and save you. "The Force helps him who helps himself" or something to that effect.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I don't think its necessarily all that implausible that they luck into meeting a skilled thief in a super rich area. Its a tempting target, and all the unskilled thieves will have been caught.
    ...DJ had been caught, though?
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The intended subversion was, I think, supposed to be that you cant deliberately replicate things like what happened in ANH
    But the situation was nothing whatsoever like what happened in ANH; Kenobi needed a fast ship (something he seemed could be plausibly found even on a backwater planet like Tatooine), as opposed to Finn and rose needing a master code breaker, which necessitated calling up a person with the contacts to know such a person, who could recommend one and only one who would be able to do it and be trustworthy (which already undercuts the whole "sure this random person we just met will be trustworthy and we should expect everything to work out fine!" bit that is supposed to be subverted later on), and then stumbled by sheer luck onto someone else.

    It's as close to what happened in ANH as it is to The Wrath of Kahn. Which is to say, not at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    ...DJ had been caught, though?

    But the situation was nothing whatsoever like what happened in ANH; Kenobi needed a fast ship (something he seemed could be plausibly found even on a backwater planet like Tatooine), as opposed to Finn and rose needing a master code breaker, which necessitated calling up a person with the contacts to know such a person, who could recommend one and only one who would be able to do it and be trustworthy (which already undercuts the whole "sure this random person we just met will be trustworthy and we should expect everything to work out fine!" bit that is supposed to be subverted later on), and then stumbled by sheer luck onto someone else.

    It's as close to what happened in ANH as it is to The Wrath of Kahn. Which is to say, not at all.
    Well yeah, that's why it all went to hell as soon as something unexpected happened. Finn and Rose were trying to play the story like it was ANH, not quite being idiots about it but definitely being pretty foolish. A lot of things that go wrong in TLJ do so because of ill conceived attempts to emulate the legends and stories they grew up on, and otherwise taking them at face value instead of using their brains to try and solve the problem.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Kenobi clearly doesn't believe he's boasting
    On the contrary, Kenobi clearly does believe Han is boasting.


    the person had not yet escaped for unknown reasons despite being able to escape at any time.[/quote]
    What would you rather do in the middle of night?
    A) Run away from the cops or
    B) Have a good night sleep in the cell you can escape at any time and then run away from the cops?
    Literally every single part of that was luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Kenobi
    In my experience, there is no such thing as luck
    A teeny bit late to complain about Star Wars plots relying on coincidences.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-08-28 at 11:04 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    On the contrary, Kenobi clearly does believe Han is boasting.
    Damnable autocorrect!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    What would you rather do in the middle of night?
    A) Run away from the cops or
    B) Have a good night sleep in the cell you can escape at any time and then run away from the cops?
    When do the cops come back to bring me to trial or put me somewhere more secure? I sure as heck don't know, so I'd want out ASAP. Especially since I'd like to believe I was plenty refreshed for doing whatever I was caught doing to begin with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    A teeny bit late to complain about Star Wars plots relying on coincidences.
    You'll forgive me if I think a line from a guy who can manipulate things with his mind doesn't quite apply to people who can't. That's like a trust-fund baby saying "eh, I've never found hard work, intelligence, or connections to be all that essential to getting rich."
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    ...although his tendency to mop so many plot relevant strategic locations is... well, a stretch.
    I don't really think it does....because we never see any other Stormtroopers doing any mopping or related cleaning activities....
    or paperwork, etc....for all their marching hither, thither, and yon you'd think they would be seen doing any kind of busywork besides standing in place with a gun inside of already highly secure military facilities.

    Closest we get is the clones eating, sim training, and being issued gear. Which are at least plausible activities for such people...but still no mopping, maintenance, laundry, etc.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    When do the cops come back to bring me to trial or put me somewhere more secure? I sure as heck don't know, so I'd want out ASAP. Especially since I'd like to believe I was plenty refreshed for doing whatever I was caught doing to begin with.
    What do you mean ‘sure as heck don’t know’? How do you know what he does and doesn’t know?

    This is assuming he wasn’t simply thrown in the block for public drunkness to be released in the morning with a fine or something. After all his cell-mates were in for breaking parking regulations so whatever his reason for being in probably wasn’t serious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You'll forgive me if I think a line from a guy who can manipulate things with his mind doesn't quite apply to people who can't. That's like a trust-fund baby saying "eh, I've never found hard work, intelligence, or connections to be all that essential to getting rich."
    I doubt obi-wan had anything to do with the Lars buying their nephew’s mother’s old droid carrying a message from his sister. Or that the Imperials found the Lars’ home just as Luke was away. Or our brave heroes just happening to meet that lone TIE fighter.

    Star Wars decided from day one that the Will of the Force was a real thing in universe and that it will make unlikely things happen to serve its oh-so mysterious designs. I don’t like it either, but that’s the necessary consequence of deciding that your religious characters are right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You'll forgive me if I think a line from a guy who can manipulate things with his mind doesn't quite apply to people who can't. That's like a trust-fund baby saying "eh, I've never found hard work, intelligence, or connections to be all that essential to getting rich."
    The Star Wars trilogy literally opens with two droids crashing into a desert, getting picked up by scavengers, and then being conveniently sold to the only person on the entire planet related by blood to both the guy chasing them and the lady in need of rescuing, who is also the only guy in the galaxy who can blow up the enemy superweapon. Coincidence is pretty much baked in from the ground floor.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    What do you mean ‘sure as heck don’t know’? How do you know what he does and doesn’t know?
    They didn't show anything about him knowing what would happen, so I have no reason to assume he had any knowledge of what would happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I doubt obi-wan had anything to do with the Lars buying their nephew’s mother’s old droid carrying a message from his sister. Or that the Imperials found the Lars’ home just as Luke was away. Or our brave heroes just happening to meet that lone TIE fighter.

    Star Wars decided from day one that the Will of the Force was a real thing in universe and that it will make unlikely things happen to serve its oh-so mysterious designs.
    Day one didn't have Anakin, who was also Luke's father, building R2, which ended up with Anakin's daughter/Luke's sister, and so on. So no, I'm going to stay with the trust-fund analogy.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-08-28 at 12:13 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    They didn't show anything about him knowing what would happen, so I have no reason to assume he had any knowledge of what would happen.
    Well then you’re the one making assumptions that don’t fit the story when the opposite is just as likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Day one didn't have Anakin, who was also Luke's father, building R2, which ended up with Anakin's daughter/Luke's sister, and so on. So no, I'm going to stay with the trust-fund analogy.
    So besides adding more example of crazy coincidences being omnipresent in Star Wars plots, what are you trying to say? Because as far as I can see you are helping my case here and I’m confused.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Well then you’re the one making assumptions that don’t fit the story when the opposite is just as likely.
    My assumptions fit the story fine, though. They don't introduce plot holes or inconsistencies. They just illustrate how the lack of exposition does not serve the story well.

    ETA: Also, isn't the whole "you have to do things yourself, you can't just think the Force will do things" idea against the entire "there's no such thing as luck" bit? If you try, then the Force will provide? But then Finn and Rose try, and the Force seemingly provides, and they just got unlucky? If you agree that the Force guides everything, then why did it guide them to DJ? If you think the deconstruction of the heroes finding who they need as worthwhile, then why back Kenobi's "there's no such thing as luck"? They work at cross-purposes.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-08-28 at 12:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Malphegor View Post
    Yoda is a massive troll to Luke though.

    He burnt down the library, not the books of teachings- Rey had already nicked the books and you see a shot of her packing away in the next scene she's in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I want to see what happens when the caretakers find out that their most sacred shrine has been looted and burned. They most likely assume it was Rey, if she ever goes back to Atch-To she'll be torn to pieces.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Ya know, I never even thought about that.
    I think this situation pretty much sums up everything Arian Johnson did with Episode VIII.

    His approach is simply unconcerned with world building and hostile to it. He even insisted that the movie opened up right after Episode VII finished, leaving no time skip to fill in with novels, comic books and other medium like every other Star Wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    The Star Wars trilogy literally opens with two droids crashing into a desert, getting picked up by scavengers, and then being conveniently sold to the only person on the entire planet related by blood to both the guy chasing them and the lady in need of rescuing, who is also the only guy in the galaxy who can blow up the enemy superweapon. Coincidence is pretty much baked in from the ground floor.
    I think the focus on coincidences in Episode VIII or any specific episode or coincidence is misplaced. Coincidence (or is it the working of the Force) happens, a lot.

    Instead, Episode VIII is subversive and undermines earlier narratives in much more obvious ways and creates issues of other varieties.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    My assumptions fit the story fine, though. They don't introduce plot holes or inconsistencies. They just illustrate how the lack of exposition does not serve the story well.
    Exposition has its uses. Explaining why the shady character is sleeping in a cell in the dead of night is superfluous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    ETA: Also, isn't the whole "you have to do things yourself, you can't just think the Force will do things" idea against the entire "there's no such thing as luck" bit? If you try, then the Force will provide? But then Finn and Rose try, and the Force seemingly provides, and they just got unlucky? If you agree that the Force guides everything, then why did it guide them to DJ?
    Ain’t nobody ever said the Force was nice. And it is definitely not straightforward.
    If you think the deconstruction of the heroes finding who they need as worthwhile, then why back Kenobi's "there's no such thing as luck"? They work at cross-purposes.
    I think that what’s being deconstructed here is the ‘lovable scoundrel’ trope not the crazy coincidences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Exposition has its uses. Explaining why the shady character is sleeping in a cell in the dead of night is superfluous.
    When he can escape at any time, it's not superfluous. There should be a reason he hasn't escaped yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Ain’t nobody ever said the Force was nice. And it is definitely not straightforward.
    "The Force works in mysterious ways" is, not to put too fine a point on it, bullhonkey. Might as well say a wizard did it. It makes for lazy storytelling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I think that what’s being deconstructed here is the ‘lovable scoundrel’ trope not the crazy coincidences.
    He wasn't livable at any point, and at all times was a shady, shifty scoundrel. If that's what it's supposed to deconstruct, it did a poor job of it. Putting the "obvious betrayer" trope in Groucho Marx glasses doesn't make it a deconstruction of the "lovable scoundrel" trope.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-08-28 at 01:15 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    How do you nerds not recognize Katana fleet?* The ships are an older design, and the lights are all off, and they are in a secluded looking location in a strange formation.

    Final fleet made for the republic/empire designed with slave circuits to minimize crew size. Fleet disappeared when the fleet crew got sick/crazy and they hyper jumped together to unknown space.
    The story hook is tempting if they go with it, an instant fleet ready to swing the balance against the bad guys if only they get to it first.
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Given Canto Bight police are the 'taze perps unconscious for parking violation' type, I'm not sure I'd trust their benevolence.

    Maybe he was waiting for cellmates, so he could use them as a distraction?

    Re: Coincidences, R2 is specifically headed to Obi Wan, who lives near Luke. Owen initially buys the red one which suspiciously explodes. R2 probably murdered it to ensure he was sold locally.

    It's not all that odd that Leia inherits Anakin and Padme's droids.

    He even insisted that the movie opened up right after Episode VII finished, leaving no time skip to fill in with novels, comic books and other medium like every other Star Wars.
    Eh, he was pretty much stuck with that from the mid-scene ending of TFA.

    don't really think it does....because we never see any other Stormtroopers doing any mopping or related cleaning activities....
    or paperwork, etc....for all their marching hither, thither, and yon you'd think they would be seen doing any kind of busywork besides standing in place with a gun inside of already highly secure military facilities.

    Closest we get is the clones eating, sim training, and being issued gear. Which are at least plausible activities for such people...but still no mopping, maintenance, laundry, etc.
    So...Finn is the only sanitation worker in the entire FO? That must suck.

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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    When he can escape at any time, it's not superfluous. There should be a reason he hasn't escaped yet.
    He was sleeping. What more reason do you want? The cell isn’t going to be harder to break free from three hours later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    W"The Force works in mysterious ways" is, not to put too fine a point on it, bullhonkey. Might as well say a wizard did it. It makes for lazy storytelling.
    I agree. That didn’t stop Star Wars for forty years, why would it now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    WHe wasn't livable at any point, and at all times was a shady, shifty scoundrel. If that's what it's supposed to deconstruct, it did a poor job of it. Putting the "obvious betrayer" trope in Groucho Marx glasses doesn't make it a deconstruction of the "lovable scoundrel" trope.
    He was exactly like Han Solo at the beginning of ANH. Han spent some time with the heroes and was impressed enough to abandon his self-centered ways. DJ wasn’t. That’s the deconstruction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Given Canto Bight police are the 'taze perps unconscious for parking violation' type, I'm not sure I'd trust their benevolence.
    Who said anything about benevolence?


    Re: Coincidences, R2 is specifically headed to Obi Wan, who lives near Luke. Owen initially buys the red one which suspiciously explodes. R2 probably murdered it to ensure he was sold locally.
    And they were fortunate enough to crash-land significantly near the Lars instead of literally anywhere else on the planet. And then they separated and went in different directions which didn’t stop them being captured by the same group of nomads who just happened to be headed towards the Lars who just happened to need a droid that can communicate with their moisture collection devices (man, user interface mightily sucks in the galaxy far far away) and a do-whatever you need bot and then the R5 Owen bought just happened to explode.

    And no R2 did not sabotage that R5 because
    A) Out of character much?
    B) The Jawas put a restraining bolt on him when captured him and he had to trick Luke into taking it off after being sold.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    No he wasn't stuck with the ending of episode 7.
    He literally could have started revealing Snoke's agents in the Republic helped the First Order takeover dozens of important systems before they could recover from the shock of the Hosnian system being blown up.
    The New Republic ever wary of how the Empire fell established tracking beacons aboard all of the ships they had access to or built so they could be tracked even through hyperspace thanks to some acquired Imperial tech (as seen in Star Wars Rebels when the Grand Inquisitor used it to tag the Phantom).

    Holdo is actually a New Republic Admiral and NOT a member of the Resistance which is considered untrustworthy because Leia realising the First Order was tracking them was obtaining replacement ships and gear neither the New Republic nor the First Order could track.

    This is thanks to Han returning to smuggling to help fund Leia's Resistance group.

    Holdo seized a small Resistance group Cobalt Squadron who used civilian ice mining craft doubling as surveillance ships depositing spy droids and gathering them up if they can far inside First Order territory as they're actually a reputable business mining the icy outer worlds of the star systems.

    D'Qar has already been evacuated since at least a couple of months has passed since Rey left as Leia knows better than anyone that the First Order would be striking back at them.

    A single Dreadnaught has been assigned to keep watch as Holdo and her surviving fleet jump in system.
    The Dreadnaught's captain has the resistance base blown up disobeying Hux's orders as they're aware its been abandoned and rather than sending teams down to investigate the Captain has purposely ignored his much younger superior given he has no respect for Hux's child.

    Poe jumps in and catching the Dreadnaught by surprise gets past and lands aboard Holdo's ship alerting her of jump coordinates to rendezvous with Leia.

    Jumping and then hiding within an asteroid belt Leia boards Holdo's ship and confers with her on the bridge.

    A traitor uses the opportunity to detonate planted charges on both the bridge and the hangar bay as the First Order turns up with Kylo Ren leading a fighter squadron dives on the waiting ships.

    It is at this exact moment when we shift to Rey meeting Luke who hands him his old lightsabre.

    As he grasps the saber it immediately restores his link to the force as he witnesses Leia being sucked out into space as the bomb detonates.

    He instinctively drops the saber reaching out for Leia and manages to pull her back inside and through a shielded area where she can be safely be reached by Poe & co who get her emergency first aid.

    Rey completely unaware what has transpired thinks Luke dropped it deliberately.

    Holdo manages to seize command despite her obvious problems and has fuel transferred from the other ships to hers forcing them to leave several behind.

    She imprisons Poe when he tries to talk her out of leaving the other ships as Holdo's ships can clearly be tracked but the Resistance ships aren't.

    Holdo arranges for Poe and Rose's group to assist a New Republic Spec Force unit to infiltrate the Supremacy and delete the files they're using to track the New Republic ships.

    Holdo uses Poe's imprisonment to force Finn to agree to the mission unaware its a trap set for him as Snoke plans on torturing the former Strom Trooper to draw out Rey before she can complete her training exactly as Darth Vader did to Luke which the Vader fanboy delights in emulating his "hero".

    Finn spots the trap with him and Rose escaping by posing as drunk to be taken into custody by Canto Blight's police who they catch off guard and encounter a jailed DJ who they free after he tells them he can help them escape off world.

    DJ helps them infiltrate the Supremacy by handing Finn over allowing Rose and BB-8 to sneak aboard.

    Captain Phasma frees Finn and asks his help to rescue her niece Rey.

    Back Story
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    Back during TFA she recognised Rey and helped her escape she deliberately allowed herself to be captured so Han & co would rescue Rey and get her off Star Killer Base before Snoke discovered about her.

    With Hux's sons help she smuggled infant Rey down to Jakku and into the care of a local woman who was actually a Jedi survivor.

    That survivor trained Rey but placed a mental geas to keep her safely hidden on Jakku when she died of old age.

    Kylo Ren fractured that mind block but Finn coming back for her fully released her explaining why a fully trained Padawan kicked Kylo Ren's backside as he was a force adept and not fully trained at that!


    Rey sensing Finn in danger doesn't listen to Luke who accompanies Chewie leading to them arriving on Tython.

    Its revealed the map Lor San Tekka gave Poe was a fake leading to this world intended to prove how badly Snoke had infiltrated the New Republic.

    However Rey travels here and relives that part of her force vision where Kylo Ren saves her life from a First Order Assassin and he's accompanied by his Knights of Ren.

    They take her to Snoke but rather than Kylo & Rey vs Snoke and his guards its also Phasma and Finn with Snoke killed when Anakin Skywalker's force spirit activates his lightsabre cutting the former Inquisitor in two before throwing the saber to Rey with neither her or Kylo Ren noticing resulting in them thinking the other did it.


    The guards are easily overwhelmed as the scene shifts back to the Raddus.

    Poe escapes and in the process discovers Holdo is actually working for Snoke leading to an attempt to seize the remaining ships but Holdo reveals a self destruct on the Raddus that will take them all out.
    Blindsided by a reawakened Leia they evacuate the Raddus onto the remaining ships heading down to Crait as Poe reprograms the Raddus to jump to the edge of the system to buy them time to get out of range before the ships explodes.

    Holdo awakening to find herself alone heads to the bridge and tries to deactivate the self destruct however to her horror Poe's override sends the ships into hyperspace and rams right into the arriving Supremacy the initial collisions does little damage but the self destruct that detonates the remaining munitions aboard the New Republic Capital ship sets off a lot of internal damage as the Supremacy functions as a massive hangar ships holding dozens of ISD 2 sized warships which lack the Supremacy's armour their detonation seriously damages the Supremacy.

    Distracted by the sudden collision Finn uses the opportunity to grab Rey and run.
    Phasma checks on General Hux who recognises who Rey is but keeps quiet as he did back when he helped Phasma hide Rey when she was a child.
    Kylo Ren is shaken but having decided to replace Snoke sits on his throne only to discover its actually a Sith artefact putting him in contact with the Council of Inquisitors the true BBEG behind the First Order who recognise him as Snoke's replacement ordering him to return to Rakata Prime so they can complete the training Snoke failed to do because he didn't want Kylo do to him what Darth Vader did to the Emperor.

    Episode 9 needs to be better than that!

    I still love that reference to the Katana Fleet though!

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    He was sleeping. What more reason do you want? The cell isn’t going to be harder to break free from three hours later.
    It wouldn't be harder to break free from six hours later either. "he was sleeping" is a lazy cop out, it's bad writing, and since my entire complaint here is "this is bad writing," then saying "well it's bad writing" as a rebuttal doesn't really work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I agree. That didn’t stop Star Wars for forty years, why would it now?
    It wasn't that 49 years ago, though. 40 years ago it was a guy born on third saying in his experience it's not hard to reach home plate. Kenobi scoffed at Solo's line, Solo scoffed at Kenobi's line. No mystical Force controlled Solo's destiny, he came back all on his own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    He was exactly like Han Solo at the beginning of ANH.
    The heroes actively search for person who has what they want, find him, and pay him. The heroes actively search for person who has what they want, do not find him, someone else gets dropped in their laps, do not pay him.

    Yeah, it's like looking into a mirror.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-08-28 at 02:35 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    I'm pretty sure mopping is the sort of thing mouse droids are for.
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It wouldn't be harder to break free from six hours later either. "he was sleeping" is a lazy cop out, it's bad writing, and since my entire complaint here is "this is bad writing," then saying "well it's bad writing" as a rebuttal doesn't really work.
    Serously? The guy was sleeping in the middle of night is a cop-out? This is ridiculous. Your argument seems to be predicated on the idea that DJ must absolutely want to leave the cell even though it cannot actually hold him and he can leave whenever he wants. This may surprise you, but when offered free room and food for a night many people take that offer.

    Seriously, what kind of hill is that to die on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It wasn't that 49 years ago, though. 40 years ago it was a guy born on third saying in his experience it's not hard to reach home plate. Kenobi scoffed at Solo's line, Solo scoffed at Kenobi's line. No mystical Force controlled Solo's destiny, he came back all on his own.
    Born on third? Everything in ANH proves Kenobi right. Everything he says the Force can do it can as is shown later. It is simple fact that in the galaxy far far away, the unbeliever is wrong. You assert that Obi-Wan is wrong on that particular claim even though absolutely nothing contradicts it and many ‘coincidences’ point to him being as right about this as he is about the rest.


    The heroes actively search for person who has what they want, find him, and pay him. The heroes actively search for person who has what they want, do not find him, someone else gets dropped in their laps, do not pay him.

    Yeah, it's like looking into a mirror.
    This is just disingenuous. Are you seriously saying that the reason Han joined the trench run at the eleventh hour was because he had gotten paid for his previous job?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless View Post
    No he wasn't stuck with the ending of episode 7.
    He literally could have started revealing Snoke's agents in the Republic helped the First Order takeover dozens of important systems before they could recover from the shock of the Hosnian system being blown up.
    The New Republic ever wary of how the Empire fell established tracking beacons aboard all of the ships they had access to or built so they could be tracked even through hyperspace thanks to some acquired Imperial tech (as seen in Star Wars Rebels when the Grand Inquisitor used it to tag the Phantom).

    Holdo is actually a New Republic Admiral and NOT a member of the Resistance which is considered untrustworthy because Leia realising the First Order was tracking them was obtaining replacement ships and gear neither the New Republic nor the First Order could track.

    This is thanks to Han returning to smuggling to help fund Leia's Resistance group.

    Holdo seized a small Resistance group Cobalt Squadron who used civilian ice mining craft doubling as surveillance ships depositing spy droids and gathering them up if they can far inside First Order territory as they're actually a reputable business mining the icy outer worlds of the star systems.

    D'Qar has already been evacuated since at least a couple of months has passed since Rey left as Leia knows better than anyone that the First Order would be striking back at them.

    A single Dreadnaught has been assigned to keep watch as Holdo and her surviving fleet jump in system.
    The Dreadnaught's captain has the resistance base blown up disobeying Hux's orders as they're aware its been abandoned and rather than sending teams down to investigate the Captain has purposely ignored his much younger superior given he has no respect for Hux's child.

    Poe jumps in and catching the Dreadnaught by surprise gets past and lands aboard Holdo's ship alerting her of jump coordinates to rendezvous with Leia.

    Jumping and then hiding within an asteroid belt Leia boards Holdo's ship and confers with her on the bridge.

    A traitor uses the opportunity to detonate planted charges on both the bridge and the hangar bay as the First Order turns up with Kylo Ren leading a fighter squadron dives on the waiting ships.

    It is at this exact moment when we shift to Rey meeting Luke who hands him his old lightsabre.

    As he grasps the saber it immediately restores his link to the force as he witnesses Leia being sucked out into space as the bomb detonates.

    He instinctively drops the saber reaching out for Leia and manages to pull her back inside and through a shielded area where she can be safely be reached by Poe & co who get her emergency first aid.

    Rey completely unaware what has transpired thinks Luke dropped it deliberately.

    Holdo manages to seize command despite her obvious problems and has fuel transferred from the other ships to hers forcing them to leave several behind.

    She imprisons Poe when he tries to talk her out of leaving the other ships as Holdo's ships can clearly be tracked but the Resistance ships aren't.

    Holdo arranges for Poe and Rose's group to assist a New Republic Spec Force unit to infiltrate the Supremacy and delete the files they're using to track the New Republic ships.

    Holdo uses Poe's imprisonment to force Finn to agree to the mission unaware its a trap set for him as Snoke plans on torturing the former Strom Trooper to draw out Rey before she can complete her training exactly as Darth Vader did to Luke which the Vader fanboy delights in emulating his "hero".

    Finn spots the trap with him and Rose escaping by posing as drunk to be taken into custody by Canto Blight's police who they catch off guard and encounter a jailed DJ who they free after he tells them he can help them escape off world.

    DJ helps them infiltrate the Supremacy by handing Finn over allowing Rose and BB-8 to sneak aboard.

    Captain Phasma frees Finn and asks his help to rescue her niece Rey.

    Back Story
    Spoiler
    Show
    Back during TFA she recognised Rey and helped her escape she deliberately allowed herself to be captured so Han & co would rescue Rey and get her off Star Killer Base before Snoke discovered about her.

    With Hux's sons help she smuggled infant Rey down to Jakku and into the care of a local woman who was actually a Jedi survivor.

    That survivor trained Rey but placed a mental geas to keep her safely hidden on Jakku when she died of old age.

    Kylo Ren fractured that mind block but Finn coming back for her fully released her explaining why a fully trained Padawan kicked Kylo Ren's backside as he was a force adept and not fully trained at that!


    Rey sensing Finn in danger doesn't listen to Luke who accompanies Chewie leading to them arriving on Tython.

    Its revealed the map Lor San Tekka gave Poe was a fake leading to this world intended to prove how badly Snoke had infiltrated the New Republic.

    However Rey travels here and relives that part of her force vision where Kylo Ren saves her life from a First Order Assassin and he's accompanied by his Knights of Ren.

    They take her to Snoke but rather than Kylo & Rey vs Snoke and his guards its also Phasma and Finn with Snoke killed when Anakin Skywalker's force spirit activates his lightsabre cutting the former Inquisitor in two before throwing the saber to Rey with neither her or Kylo Ren noticing resulting in them thinking the other did it.


    The guards are easily overwhelmed as the scene shifts back to the Raddus.

    Poe escapes and in the process discovers Holdo is actually working for Snoke leading to an attempt to seize the remaining ships but Holdo reveals a self destruct on the Raddus that will take them all out.
    Blindsided by a reawakened Leia they evacuate the Raddus onto the remaining ships heading down to Crait as Poe reprograms the Raddus to jump to the edge of the system to buy them time to get out of range before the ships explodes.

    Holdo awakening to find herself alone heads to the bridge and tries to deactivate the self destruct however to her horror Poe's override sends the ships into hyperspace and rams right into the arriving Supremacy the initial collisions does little damage but the self destruct that detonates the remaining munitions aboard the New Republic Capital ship sets off a lot of internal damage as the Supremacy functions as a massive hangar ships holding dozens of ISD 2 sized warships which lack the Supremacy's armour their detonation seriously damages the Supremacy.

    Distracted by the sudden collision Finn uses the opportunity to grab Rey and run.
    Phasma checks on General Hux who recognises who Rey is but keeps quiet as he did back when he helped Phasma hide Rey when she was a child.
    Kylo Ren is shaken but having decided to replace Snoke sits on his throne only to discover its actually a Sith artefact putting him in contact with the Council of Inquisitors the true BBEG behind the First Order who recognise him as Snoke's replacement ordering him to return to Rakata Prime so they can complete the training Snoke failed to do because he didn't want Kylo do to him what Darth Vader did to the Emperor.

    Episode 9 needs to be better than that!

    I still love that reference to the Katana Fleet though!

    I'm very confused. Is this, like. your fan fiction "what you would have done" for episode 8?
    "The monk hits you a shattering blow in the kidneys, luckily this fixes a long standing alignment issue with your spine, gain +10 Move"

    "The evil wizard fireballs you, since the weather has been nasty you are now pleasantly warm, gain immunity from fear effects and cold and necrotic damage "

    "The drow cleric smashes you in the skull with an adamantine mace, this jogs your memory, regain all your used spell slots for the day"

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Serously? The guy was sleeping in the middle of night is a cop-out?
    He's asleep in the middle of the night until he wakes up in the middle of the night to break out in the middle of the night and steal a ship until the middle of the night. Oh, and by "middle of the night," we probably mean "early evening," since lots of things are going on and people are quite active. He has nothing to do and nowhere to go and is content to just aimlessly stay in place until the heroes come and suddenly he's got the urge to break out and help them because he also coincidentally has the exact specialized skills they need.

    Dude is an NPC in an 8 bit fantasy game. He serves no purpose except to help the heroes, and thus sits on the sidelines until needed. Yes, that is bad writing, and not a deconstruction of anything except remarkable laziness on whoever thought "hey let's deconstruct Han Solo but then just phone the whole damn thing in because why bother actually trying?"

    Yeah, I will die on this hill because having a scruffy looking character who quite literally wauts for his turn to be relevant to the plot is not a deconstruction of anything. At best its a subversion of good writing, but I'm not even feeling charitable enough to ascribe that level of depth to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    This is just disingenuous. Are you seriously saying that the reason Han joined the trench run at the eleventh hour was because he had gotten paid for his previous job?
    I'm saying that Luke didn't use the Force to bring Han back, no "will of the Force" brought him back, he came back of his own free will and nothing Force-related whatsoever saved Luke from being shot down by Vader. Damned lucky for Luke. We, of course, see the guilt on Han when he's packing up and see Chewie clearly wanting to help and that's characterization, not the Force.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-08-28 at 06:24 PM.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    What Fyraltari is saying is that Chance, Luck, or the Will of the Force brought Han to our heroes, but Han was deep down a good person so he chose came back to save the day.

    Chance, Luck, or the Will of the Force may have brought DJ to our heroes, but he was unwilling to do the right thing.

    The Universe can present someone with an opportunity, but it's up to that person to choose what to do with it.
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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    What Fyraltari is saying is that Chance, Luck, or the Will of the Force brought Han to our heroes, but Han was deep down a good person so he chose came back to save the day.
    Han met up with the heroes because they went to the pilot bar on a planet where all the pilots work for a crime boss specifically to recruit a pilot wouldn't ask too many questions and they specifically found a guy who was sufficiently desperate to not ask questions who was recommended to them by a different smuggler in the same bar. Also, and importantly, Obi-Wan Kenobi was a full-fledged Jedi capable of sensing things in the force pretty darn well. While he probably couldn't predict that Han was the kind of guy who'd come back to save Luke during the Death Star Run, he could figure out that Han was both 1. not exaggerating too much with regard to the Falcon's capabilities and 2. not the type to betray them to the Empire.

    In ANH the heroes have a number of reasons to believe that Han can get them to Alderaan without being detected by the Empire, and that's something Han actually does accomplish (it's not his fault Tarkin blows it up before they get there). Everything after that, beginning basically when Artoo locates Leia on the Death Star, is Han's character arc.

    There really isn't a good comparison between Han and DJ. The better comparison is between Lando and DJ. Like Lando, the heroes end up asking for DJ's help because they have no other options, and also like Lando it's suggested from the very beginning that DJ may not be entirely trustworthy (also like Lando, DJ doesn't show up until fairly late in the film). Like Lando, DJ ultimately betrays the heroes. However, it's the reasons for that betrayal and the specifics of how the betrayal and its aftermath unfold that are different.

    DJ, in particular, suggests that there's no real difference between the First Order and the Resistance (this is absurd, considering that the First Order blew up a star system in the last film, but whatever) and that's he's just out to do what's best for himself. Subsequently he betrays the heroes, causes a massive slaughter, and bugs out with his money. Lando, by contrast, betrays the heroes because he's trying to protect Cloud City and subsequently has a change of heart because Vader makes it clear how truly evil he, and by extension the Empire, actually is, as immortalized in the line "this deal is getting worse all the time."

    And ultimately, that's okay, in a sense. DJ's not really a character so much as a plot device to highlight Finn and Rose's failure. That would be fine, if Finn and Rose's failure, or Finn and Rose's plotline overall, went anywhere in this film. Since that doesn't happen, it's all just a waste of space. Lando's redemption was a major subplot of ROTJ and provided a nice character for the fleet portions of the Battle of Endor. DJ is unlikely to even appear in Rise of the Skywalker - Benicio del Toro is not listed on IMDB as being in the film - so the character by himself is pointless.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    I never thought about it like that but you're right DJ does map pretty well to Lando.
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  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Lando, by contrast, betrays the heroes because he's trying to protect Cloud City and subsequently has a change of heart because Vader makes it clear how truly evil he, and by extension the Empire, actually is, as immortalized in the line "this deal is getting worse all the time."

    And ultimately, that's okay, in a sense. DJ's not really a character so much as a plot device to highlight Finn and Rose's failure. That would be fine, if Finn and Rose's failure, or Finn and Rose's plotline overall, went anywhere in this film. Since that doesn't happen, it's all just a waste of space. Lando's redemption was a major subplot of ROTJ and provided a nice character for the fleet portions of the Battle of Endor. DJ is unlikely to even appear in Rise of the Skywalker - Benicio del Toro is not listed on IMDB as being in the film - so the character by himself is pointless.
    Very insightful analysis. I note that DJ is another indicator of how unconcerned Rian Johnson is with world building and his place in the greater trilogy and the franchise. However, DJ (and many of the other moments) show a lack of concern even of plot continuity within the movie itself.

    DJ's appearance, ultimately has no point, as does Finnrose's story. There is definitely an eagerness, if not outright glee, in the way the movie zags and turns while avoiding giving things a fine point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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