The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    And then we'd be asking why choose a packed beach instead of the abandoned wilderness they run off to later.
    Yep, the film needed some silly reason for them not to meet up with the planned code breaker, It could have been something as unimportant as them running into the building causing someone in the crowd to spill something on the guy's shirt causing him to take off the flower.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Yep, the film needed some silly reason for them not to meet up with the planned code breaker, It could have been something as unimportant as them running into the building causing someone in the crowd to spill something on the guy's shirt causing him to take off the flower.
    Didn't need to be silly, they just wanted to make it silly for unknown reasons. Guy could have said no (which would be an actual subversion, at that!), they could have legally parked but not had the money to enter the casino (why not charge, everyone legitimately rich can afford whatever they charge) and entered illegally, tons of ways they could have had it go down other then "pointlessly break the law on a planet that apparently spends tons of resources on actively IDs owners of illegally parked vehicles instead of just impounding the vehicle and making the offender do most of the work."

    You're right, they needed a silly reason because otherwise it might have made sense and Johnson couldn't have that.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Didn't need to be silly, they just wanted to make it silly for unknown reasons. Guy could have said no (which would be an actual subversion, at that!), they could have legally parked but not had the money to enter the casino (why not charge, everyone legitimately rich can afford whatever they charge) and entered illegally, tons of ways they could have had it go down other then "pointlessly break the law on a planet that apparently spends tons of resources on actively IDs owners of illegally parked vehicles instead of just impounding the vehicle and making the offender do most of the work."

    You're right, they needed a silly reason because otherwise it might have made sense and Johnson couldn't have that.
    It made sense You would have rather he gone down a different route. There was a logical narrative flow between actions, Were there plot contrivances, certainly, but this is a genre, this is a film series built on plot contrivances.

    Doing it your way wouldn't have made it make more sense, it just would have made it different, more enjoyable for you, but not better. Take your example of the guy saying no if they asked. Well then we'd have people complaining about why would Maz send them to someone that wouldn't help if asked.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    It made sense You would have rather he gone down a different route. There was a logical narrative flow between actions
    There was no logical narrative for Rose and Finn to land on the beach, which was the reason for their arrest and escape with DJ. There was no logical narrative for DJ to be in the jail cell waiting until he meets the heroes when he can escape at any time. There is no logical narrative for DJ to know exactly where Finn and Rose were when he was busy stealing a ship while the police who were actively searching for them cannot.

    You can say the movies were built on plot contrivances, but you're wrong; the original movie had a very tight script with very few contrivances, and then they get more contrived (and, coincidentally enough, more complaints levied against them) as they progress, culminating in Johnson both making contrivances while at the same time claiming that he's subverting contrivances.

    Yes, I'd rather he have just made a decent movie instead of a filming sequences that exist solely to convey a message that IMO fell flat on its face, but that's just me.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post

    This is suppoed to be Poe's redemption.
    Poe didn't have anything to be redeemed From.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobb View Post
    Poe didn't have anything to be redeemed From.
    While I agree with you, the intention was for him to be redeemed from being a hero. And as I said before, the message is stupid and doesn't work, but it's there.
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Any plan that relies on the incompetence of your opponent is a bad plan that deserves to fail and you should feel bad when it does.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    I could have lived with less footage of the old movies, I've seen them, but there are a few interesting things going on there. We're wondering about evil C3-PO or Rey. We're talking about that Star Destroyer Fleet and where it could come from. Pretty decent marketing.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
    Any plan that relies on the incompetence of your opponent is a bad plan that deserves to fail and you should feel bad when it does.
    It wasn't relying on incompetence. In order for them to know that they'd gotten out in the escape ships the first order would have to
    :Scan their ships from the moment the chase started
    :Scan possible entry routes to every single planet they pass.
    :24hours for 2 days straight. with no evidence of this plan
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    And yet it isn't. Holdo's plan relies on the First Order being incompetent, and the First Order proves to be exactly that. If not for DJ, they would never have thought to scan for cloaked transports. It would have succeeded, if not for the foolish heroes' foolish heroics.
    Your plan should never felt on the villains being that level of incompetent. That entire chase was littered with incompetence and rampant stupidity utterly at odds with how they were portrayed in TFA.

    You know, where they manage to not only hide their rather respectable fleet but also hide a planet sized super weapon that eats stars!

    God that part of the movie pissed me off. Also, what's the point of a cloaking device if there is another device that just negates it? Why? Just ***ing why?
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkVIIIMarc View Post
    I could have lived with less footage of the old movies, I've seen them, but there are a few interesting things going on there. We're wondering about evil C3-PO or Rey. We're talking about that Star Destroyer Fleet and where it could come from. Pretty decent marketing.
    I liked TFA a lot. I loathed TLJ. I like the way the teaser and trailer for ROS. I'll watch, but not opening weekend.

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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    It wasn't relying on incompetence. In order for them to know that they'd gotten out in the escape ships the first order would have to
    :Scan their ships from the moment the chase started
    :Scan possible entry routes to every single planet they pass.
    :24hours for 2 days straight. with no evidence of this plan
    Or be led by a Force user who can see the future.

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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    It wasn't relying on incompetence. In order for them to know that they'd gotten out in the escape ships the first order would have to
    :Scan their ships from the moment the chase started
    :Scan possible entry routes to every single planet they pass.
    :24hours for 2 days straight. with no evidence of this plan
    The number of planets they passed amounts to a grand total of 1. Crait is the only planet they encounter during the chase (this is logical, space is big, and sublight speeds are considerably below that of the actual speed of light, reaching a destination through realspace travel takes considerable time, the actual path of the Resistance fleet presumably moves through the Crait star system for the entire chase).

    There is no scenario, none, in which any halfway competent commander would fail to investigate Crait following the destruction of the Resistance fleet. Since it was the obvious and only possible destination they could have been trying to reach, you would of course send down some troops to figure out what they were looking for. Heck, even in an alternate scenario where Finn, Rose, and DJ succeed and the Resistance fleet actually escapes into hyperspace you would still have someone investigate Crait, and hey, you'd find an abandoned Rebel Base, which would be a useful thing to know about.

    Likewise, if you have a 'de-cloaking scan' and you're engaged in the pursuit of enemy ships, you're going to be running that scan as often as you reasonably can, because otherwise you're an idiot. Now, if running such a scan placed some sort of massive burden on the First Order's resources - perhaps by being extremely computationally intensive - that would be one thing and you could still attempt to escape while cloaked by timing your move correctly, but there's absolutely nothing in the movie to indicate anything of that nature. Even if there was, of course you'd run such a scan when your targets reach shuttle range of a planet for the first time!

    Look, there are ways that TLJ could have structured things to make Holdo's plan viable and DJ's betrayal meaningful, the most obvious being if that instead of just telling the First Order about the plan DJ had utilized some special skill in order to reveal the transports - perhaps by breaking the Resistance's codes instead of the First Order's - but that doesn't happen.
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  14. - Top - End - #164
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    They pass many planets, they just don't focus the camera on following them. As for scanning Crait. Why would they, They would still be chasing the Radius. If DJ hadn't told them about the escape to the base, the Radius was supposed to continue the chase with the first order. By the time they blew up the ship they'd be God knows how far away.
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    They pass many planets, they just don't focus the camera on following them.
    Source ?
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  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobb View Post
    Poe didn't have anything to be redeemed From.
    Didn't he disobey a direct order from his commanding officer? The highest commanding officer of the entire army in that first scene. That's usually seen as willful insubordination and may result in court martial. Especially in the case that his insubordination resulted in the deaths of the entire bomber squadron for the fleet.

    That Poe needed to reassess his hotheaded nature and getting effectively benched for his actions I can definitely buy. Hell, the movie even had Leia, the symbol of level-headed goodness in the series, explain this to him.

    Now, that said. The movie should have done a better job exploring what importance the bombers could have had. Hell, even a line later on about how the bombers would be instrumental removing the capital ships main scanners if they still had them, or something, could have gotten the point across that Poe's war of attrition style fighting is problematic in this specific instance.

    But that's TLJ all over. Ideas I find interesting, done in a rather sloppy way.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Those bombers though... I think Poe probably did the Resistance a favor by getting rid of them. I'm struggling to think of a less effective delivery system that still has the payload reach the target. Theyre so fat and slow that they evidently cannot be used against a target capable of firing back at them. Who approved that design?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Source ?
    There's no direct shot of them being closer to any planet other than Krait, but they fly past enough planets that the ships could go to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Those bombers though... I think Poe probably did the Resistance a favor by getting rid of them. I'm struggling to think of a less effective delivery system that still has the payload reach the target. Theyre so fat and slow that they evidently cannot be used against a target capable of firing back at them. Who approved that design?
    Same guy who approved of the Death Star, TIE Bombers, and the B-Wing I'd assume. Or the guy that thought that you should only be shooting lasers at each other when they're in sight range through WWII turrets, despite the existence of tracking system being established in the very first movie.

    Yeah, the Resistance bomber design is idiotic. I just don't see how it's more idiotic than any other military equipment or maneuver in this series. It's like they were designed by writers and set designers with no military experience at all.

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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Not only was Poe not proven wrong, his actions were very much justified by later events: The Raddus's hangar was destroyed in the First Order attack along with all fighter. The bombers would have been gone anyway. And if that fleet killer was part of the chasing fleet, it would have killed the Rebel ships in short order with its long-range cannons.
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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    There's no direct shot of them being closer to any planet other than Krait, but they fly past enough planets that the ships could go to.
    Again, source? Are there are any screenshots that show planets in the background? Any dialogue mentioning it? I dont recall any, so far as I remember it seemed like they were in deep space until the Crait reveal, but I could have missed something.
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  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    Not only was Poe not proven wrong, his actions were very much justified by later events: The Raddus's hangar was destroyed in the First Order attack along with all fighter. The bombers would have been gone anyway. And if that fleet killer was part of the chasing fleet, it would have killed the Rebel ships in short order with its long-range cannons.
    The film is saying that he's wrong. It may not have convincingly told you that, and that's a fault of the film, but the message that the film is trying to convey is that what Poe did was a mistake. As far as the film is concerned what poe did was a mistake and things would have gone better for them had he called off the attack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Didn't he disobey a direct order from his commanding officer? The highest commanding officer of the entire army in that first scene.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Yeah, the Resistance bomber design is idiotic. I just don't see how it's more idiotic than any other military equipment or maneuver in this series.
    Because literally every other starfighter in the series is fast and agile, not glacially slow even when moving in a straight line. Including the bombers. Especially including the Y-Wing bombers we saw in ANH, which were supposed to be rickety old archaic starfighters the Rebels were using because they had no other choice.

    If it had been established from the beginning that bomber-type starfighters were slow and clunky and required support from fighter-type starfighters to not get blown to pieces, the scene with the Resistance bombers would still have been dumb for a variety of reasons, but at least we wouldn't be asking why 30 years later the bombers are not only not more advanced than but actively worse than every other bomber ever built in the history of the galaxy.

    Personally, I'd have preferred them to use the 4-person-crew bomber decked out with a ton of heavy ordnance from the EU, the K-Wing. It looks cooler, it's less of a straight ripoff of a WW2 bomber, and it doesn't insult the audience's intelligence by contriving a very un-starfighter-like starfighter just for the purpose of getting them all killed for Poe's pointless arc.
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Yeah, the Resistance bomber design is idiotic. I just don't see how it's more idiotic than any other military equipment or maneuver in this series. It's like they were designed by writers and set designers with no military experience at all.
    I agree it's not any worse objectively, but it does underline in pretty heavy ink that Star Wars takes its WW2-ness too far. Just because you're fighting space Nazis doesn't mean you have to fight them like actual Nazis.

    Sort of like just because the Jedi are a quasi-knighthood doesn't mean they all need to use literal laser swords, knights - and Samurai - did use plenty of other weapons without being all huffy and condescending about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    That image came from the refusal to nuke civilians. Which most certainly can be classified as disobedience of an immoral or unlawful order. For that argument to work you'd have to establish that turning the bombers back is in some way illegal.

    As to the poor design of the bombers. You know, fair enough. I'll chalk that up to things about the setting I legitimately don't care about. But if the technology is important to your viewing, then I can understand why it would bother you. I personally turn my brain off whenever it comes to tech in this setting, since I stand by my belief that none of it makes sense. But you do have a point, these bombers maneuverability is far worse than what came before.

    One could maybe argue that their payload was stronger, or they could carry different weapons. But, meh, I don't really feel like trying to argue for something I don't really care about, or really believe. I'm pretty sure the design was simply made because whoever designed it thought it looked cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sholos View Post
    Any plan that relies on the incompetence of your opponent is a bad plan that deserves to fail and you should feel bad when it does.
    Precisely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Same guy who approved of the Death Star, TIE Bombers, and the B-Wing I'd assume. Or the guy that thought that you should only be shooting lasers at each other when they're in sight range through WWII turrets, despite the existence of tracking system being established in the very first movie.

    Yeah, the Resistance bomber design is idiotic. I just don't see how it's more idiotic than any other military equipment or maneuver in this series. It's like they were designed by writers and set designers with no military experience at all.
    Thou shalt not insult the B-Wing. It's a very good craft that took the reigns from the equally good for it's time Y-Wing. Yes the B-Wing flies weird but once you adjust it's great.

    And it stands out because it's slower than a Hurt on a unicycle and takes a hit like a TIE. That thing is horrid.

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Because literally every other starfighter in the series is fast and agile, not glacially slow even when moving in a straight line. Including the bombers. Especially including the Y-Wing bombers we saw in ANH, which were supposed to be rickety old archaic starfighters the Rebels were using because they had no other choice.

    If it had been established from the beginning that bomber-type starfighters were slow and clunky and required support from fighter-type starfighters to not get blown to pieces, the scene with the Resistance bombers would still have been dumb for a variety of reasons, but at least we wouldn't be asking why 30 years later the bombers are not only not more advanced than but actively worse than every other bomber ever built in the history of the galaxy.

    Personally, I'd have preferred them to use the 4-person-crew bomber decked out with a ton of heavy ordnance from the EU, the K-Wing. It looks cooler, it's less of a straight ripoff of a WW2 bomber, and it doesn't insult the audience's intelligence by contriving a very un-starfighter-like starfighter just for the purpose of getting them all killed for Poe's pointless arc.
    Exactly. If they're going to reference WWII they should have gone with the Battle of Midway. Not only is it more dynamic visually,but it makes more sense in universe. Because you don't use a carpet bomber for hitting starships. THEY HAVE TOPEDOES FOR GOS SAKE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    I agree it's not any worse objectively, but it does underline in pretty heavy ink that Star Wars takes its WW2-ness too far. Just because you're fighting space Nazis doesn't mean you have to fight them like actual Nazis.

    Sort of like just because the Jedi are a quasi-knighthood doesn't mean they all need to use literal laser swords, knights - and Samurai - did use plenty of other weapons without being all huffy and condescending about it.
    Being fair here, Star Wars used to keep the WWII-ness a bit more veiled than that. That bomber is so obviously supposed to be a Flying Fortress it hurts

    It's also absolutely terrible in and out of universe for a host of reasons. Not the least of which is a mosntrous blind spot in front of it.
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    As far as the film is concerned what poe did was a mistake and things would have gone better for them had he called off the attack.
    Then the film shouldn't have established that the dreadnought could take out the fleet singlehandedly, and that all the FO ships were able to follow the fleet through hyoerspace. As per what the film directly tells us, if Poe had called off the attack, they would all have died after the jump when the FO came right in behind them.
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  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Then the film shouldn't have established that the dreadnought could take out the fleet singlehandedly, and that all the FO ships were able to follow the fleet through hyoerspace. As per what the film directly tells us, if Poe had called off the attack, they would all have died after the jump when the FO came right in behind them.
    You know what's also a fleet killer. Snoke's flagship, and they were able to stay out of range of that, Not only that but if they'd left when they were supposed to, it would have taken longer for the First Order to even get to them.
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  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    As for scanning Crait. Why would they
    Why wouldn't they, if the First Order was even vaguely competent? There's something like 20 Star Destroyers accompanying the Supremacy during the chase scene, and as far as I can tell not one of them has any real need to be accompanying the Supremacy at all times during the pursuit. The Supremacy's significantly larger and so, presumably, significantly more powerful than the 'fleet killer' dreadnought at the start of the movie so it's extremely doubtful that the Star Destroyers are needed on the off chance that the Raddus turns and fights, there's only one ship of any note left to be chased long before they get to Crait so it's not like the First Order needs some spare ships in case the Resistance decides to scatter and flee rather than keeping in one nice big easily-followed group, and the Raddus doesn't seem to have the ability to carry anything big enough to take a hit from the Supremacy's guns even at the range they're at so getting into little ships and shuttles to scatter and flee seems like it'd go about as well as taking the shuttles to Crait went - or would, if the First Order wasn't full of a bunch of incompetents who apparently can't be bothered to scan for anyone trying to slip away while they focus on chasing the big ships unless prompted to do so by shady stowaways.

    Heck, the First Order fleet chasing the Raddus probably has the resources to turn each and every vaguely-habitable rock in the Crait system into a radioactive marble just to be sure while the main part of the fleet continues the pursuit - old-canon said it only took a day or less for a single Imperial Star Destroyer to do something like that to an Earth-like planet, and the Disney canon, or at least the Sequel Trilogy, has been fairly consistent about pretty much everything the First Order has being bigger, better, or more powerful than the Empire's equivalents.
    Last edited by Aeson; 2019-08-30 at 10:02 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: So, there's a new Star Wars trailer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    You know what's also a fleet killer.
    They don't claim Snokes ship has extended range canons. They do claim that of the dreadnought.

    Also, Finn and Rose state that any of the ships can track the fleet through hyperspace, they just only use one at a time. So theres no reason the FO fleet would have been delayed chasing the Resistance fleet.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-08-30 at 10:09 PM.
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