The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Does that game not have a mechanic like WoW where you can level as one thing and re-spec later? Like, I typically play warrior and if I'm going to tank I'll play as protection...but I would never try to level as that.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    But it's so much better now that you can have 2-person flying mounts almost anywhere!
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    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Aion has a skill point system that you have to do PvP objectives (and PvE objectives in PvP areas for). Aside from that you just had gear with rune slots. Good templars slot Crit chance/attack power and switch twohanders with sword and board. I slotted HP and block and had a bad sword and board and no twohander.

    You slotted HP and mag. Accuracy on crowd control casters and healers had hp/mag resist gear. But a tank had enough HP and engages/CC that he only needed damage.

    Tho much was guidedby the fact that there was no resource management since you could use potions all fight in 30s cooldowns.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    Aion has a skill point system that you have to do PvP objectives (and PvE objectives in PvP areas for). Aside from that you just had gear with rune slots. Good templars slot Crit chance/attack power and switch twohanders with sword and board. I slotted HP and block and had a bad sword and board and no twohander.

    You slotted HP and mag. Accuracy on crowd control casters and healers had hp/mag resist gear. But a tank had enough HP and engages/CC that he only needed damage.

    Tho much was guidedby the fact that there was no resource management since you could use potions all fight in 30s cooldowns.
    I played a little bit of Aion. I *really* liked the fact that there was a Rogue evasion tank.

    Problem is, I played so much WoW for so long (with a Rogue as a main) I couldn't bring myself to get invested in another MMO.
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
      /l、
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Just for giggles, I went and looked at Method's timeline of World Firsts. In order of release-to-death reflecting max available difficulty:


    It's certainly the shortest lifespan Ragnaros has ever had, on par with most of the easiest bosses - so that does imply the average player skill level has improved drastically since Original Classic. Specifically, he's the 7th quickest boss kill of all time. Though at least he's not the quickest kill...poor Xavius.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    I played a little bit of Aion. I *really* liked the fact that there was a Rogue evasion tank.

    Problem is, I played so much WoW for so long (with a Rogue as a main) I couldn't bring myself to get invested in another MMO.
    Did it not have problems with getting burst down? The problem with evasion tanking has always been that damage mitigation+healing >>>>> evasion + healing. Simply because the incoming damage is predictable and you don't have to worry about your tank getting burst down. Even with 99% evasion 1 out of 100 attacks will hit, and if that hit is a crit your raid is going to be wiped.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Manticoran View Post
    Raiding is something I never plan to do, but it seems like there's probably well over a hundred hours of content just wandering around going all the different quests and dungeons.
    You really should consider at least some of the smaller raids.

    People get the idea - understandably - that WoW is a video game. And while that's not 100% inaccurate, it's simply closer to the truth to say that it's a highly advanced chatroom, with thousands of simultaneous users and a fantasy game tacked on.

    A big lump of the fun in MMO's comes from doing stuff with other people.

    Also, raids are just good old fashioned fun. Those are the best designed parts of the game, and .. worth it. Really =)

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Did it not have problems with getting burst down? The problem with evasion tanking has always been that damage mitigation+healing >>>>> evasion + healing. Simply because the incoming damage is predictable and you don't have to worry about your tank getting burst down. Even with 99% evasion 1 out of 100 attacks will hit, and if that hit is a crit your raid is going to be wiped.
    It depends entirely in the game's combat paradigm.

    If one crit from the boss will one-shot anybody besides the damage mitigation tank then sure evasion tank isn't so hot.

    But if the game's combat is made so that everybody needs a multiple hits to go down even if they're crits, then evasion tanking becomes a lot more viable.

    Like in Xenoblade Chronicles I and II both damage mitigation tanking and evasion tanking are viable since even bosses won't be one-shoting the squishy characters unless there's a pretty big level difference, although they can certainly out-damage that game's healers unless the the tank is drawing aggro.
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    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Did it not have problems with getting burst down? The problem with evasion tanking has always been that damage mitigation+healing >>>>> evasion + healing. Simply because the incoming damage is predictable and you don't have to worry about your tank getting burst down. Even with 99% evasion 1 out of 100 attacks will hit, and if that hit is a crit your raid is going to be wiped.
    When creatures cannot crit and bosses have predictable patterns, it is easy to do. As I remember, the game only allowed that on difficulties below hardcore PvE, and generally you needed a good healer for it. The game had clerics (heavy duty healing if specced to it, could also spec into dot usage) and chanters (basically buffing autoattackers, could spec into defensive and offensive auras). A cleric could have almost anyone as tank as long as it didnt wear cloth.

    To get back to WoW analogues:
    In Aion a gladiator could tank (imagine an Arms Warrior), or an assassin (assassin rogue) if a healing specced cleric (holy priest) or an offensively specced chanter along with the right dps group (imagine a permanent bloodlust aura for autoattacks) healed them.
    Last edited by Spore; 2019-09-03 at 10:48 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    When creatures cannot crit and bosses have predictable patterns, it is easy to do. As I remember, the game only allowed that on difficulties below hardcore PvE, and generally you needed a good healer for it. The game had clerics (heavy duty healing if specced to it, could also spec into dot usage) and chanters (basically buffing autoattackers, could spec into defensive and offensive auras). A cleric could have almost anyone as tank as long as it didnt wear cloth.

    To get back to WoW analogues:
    In Aion a gladiator could tank (imagine an Arms Warrior), or an assassin (assassin rogue) if a healing specced cleric (holy priest) or an offensively specced chanter along with the right dps group (imagine a permanent bloodlust aura for autoattacks) healed them.
    Yeah, I tanked quite a few dungeons and raids as a fury warrior back in the day. Sometimes it was even better than protection because I could actually generate threat so the DPS classes could DPS. It's just the bursty nature of damage that makes me skeptical of evasion tanking. Even if a boss can't one shot, eventually he's going to land a string of hits in a row and it's game over.

    There's always exceptions, and I personally love the concept of an evasion tank. I'm just not sure it's practical.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    I think tanks in games like these need at least two layers of defense. Something chance based, and something the player can use. And evasion tanks were incredibly viable in Aion at least. Can't say anything about WoW tho but I have read about DW fury tanks in absolute top gear for speed kills. But that is the equivalent of fricking about in endgame stuff.

    You see, Aion had no "proper" PvE dungeons in vanilla. You had Theobomos Laboratory which was basically just a place CHOKED by mob density. They removed mobs in one of the first major patches because the dungeon was so unattractive. Think constant pulls of 6+ mobs. Only one class could CC properly (and that could be regularly resisted, a CC attempt did create A LOT of threat). The original length for slightly underlevelled groups took about 4 hours if you did every pull right.

    The endgame dungeon (yes, singular) was Dark Poeta, which was a 1,5h-2,5h dungeon where you (virtue of being max level) avoided most mobs. It had a time attack mode, where S rank was only made possible by a DPS character like a gladiator or assassin tanking to generate enough damage and threat.

    _____________________________________

    In other news, I did my first classic dungeon yesterday...which makes me kinda wish I hadn't created a hunter. Not because I hate my class but because the actual tank was barely able to mark properly. He did not account for my dead zone and struggled to hold aggro vs the frost mage or me. Partially our fault tho (i started DPSing right away not used to the old threat gen) and the Mage wa 3 levels above the mobs and the tank (16 to 13). It was fun but I am kinda debating on rerolling warrior. But I do HATE slow levelling and I kinda enjoy the laid back playstyle of old hunter.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Still chugging along in classic, rolled a Shaman, because I am going through the horde side of things for the first time and what could be more iconic?

    Did my first dungeon (RFC) as a healer (first time healing, and despite being elemental specced I seem to still be low enough level that doesn't matter much), and had a lot of fun with it. Looking forward to trying out Wailing Caverns soonish.

    Went on questing, and just finished hitting 19. The Barrens is like a never-ending slew of quests. Like I turn in a quest, I get 2 more. I've been trying to free up a few quest log slots because my friend wants to do SFK and already has 3 quests for it he can share... but I am constantly at 19-20 quests. Hopefully within the next level or so this will slow down and I can clear out my log, go do a couple dungeons, and come back fresh for Stone Talon mountains. It'll actually be my first time ever setting foot in that zone (excluding getting carted around by a friend on a 2 seated flyer 10 years ago for trick or treating achievements), so I'm looking forward to that.

    Meanwhile, I've been in the barrens for about 9 levels, from 10 to 19. In that time, my herbalism has gone from 20-25 up to ~45. Herbs are just so darn rare there. I had a quest that required me to turn in at Silverpine Forrest, so I ran on over there. In the 5-10 minute run from Undercity's zeplin to Silverpine, I went from 45 to 70 herbs. The difference in quantities of nodes is absurd. Sadly most of the low level herbs seem to be AHing for around vendor price, but still I am glad to finally get the skill up a bit and unlock the next tier of training.




    Also, for all the jank and balance problems at end game? I am really just enjoying the Shaman class in general. Mana as an actual resource is something I did not realize had ever existed (I started in Wrath), and having to make the decision between dealing extra immediate damage to the mob, healing myself, or using Flame Shock/Searing Totem for some ongoing damage provides interesting game play even though I am hitting on average one button every 6 seconds. I feel like this is exactly the kind of game play they were trying to bring back when removing gcd lock from specs during reworks at various times, but never really hit that same sweet spot of interesting decision making.

    I'll also note those decisions are far less interesting in a dungeon setting. When I was doing RFC I really was just spamming Healing Touch at various ranks and maybe dropping a Fire Nova totem/auto attacking if the tank's health was high and I could afford it. And that may be why it never worked to dial back rotations and give more free space, since in the group setting you don't need to worry about casting that heal on yourself vs damaging, and I don't know that they could even create a design where that would be the logical way to do things, short of removing the healer role from the game forcibly.
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    In other news, I did my first classic dungeon yesterday...which makes me kinda wish I hadn't created a hunter. Not because I hate my class but because the actual tank was barely able to mark properly. He did not account for my dead zone and struggled to hold aggro vs the frost mage or me. Partially our fault tho (i started DPSing right away not used to the old threat gen) and the Mage wa 3 levels above the mobs and the tank (16 to 13). It was fun but I am kinda debating on rerolling warrior. But I do HATE slow levelling and I kinda enjoy the laid back playstyle of old hunter.
    Tank threat generation will improve with time, and as a Hunter you can also use your pet and Distracting Shot to bail someone who overaggro'd out so you're good. If you love playing Hunter, keep playing Hunter! "Optimally", you don't even have much of a reason to go to dungeons anyway, but even if you want to run them, you should have no problems. A level 13 tank doesn't have access to Mocking Blow, for example. So I do believe dungeons will go so, so much better later on, as everyone gets more abilities.
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Tank threat generation will improve with time, and as a Hunter you can also use your pet and Distracting Shot to bail someone who overaggro'd out so you're good. If you love playing Hunter, keep playing Hunter! "Optimally", you don't even have much of a reason to go to dungeons anyway, but even if you want to run them, you should have no problems. A level 13 tank doesn't have access to Mocking Blow, for example. So I do believe dungeons will go so, so much better later on, as everyone gets more abilities.
    Yes, Hunters get some amazing tools for managing aggro as levels increase. Concussive Shot, Frost Trap, Feign Death, and your pet can combine for some really effective means to manage when you peel off your tank. In fact, I would argue that strategically peeling from your tank can make your group run better. Less damage to your primary meatshield will make the healer's job easier, and so long as the 3 DPS in your party all focus on the guy you've peeled, they won't live long enough to chew anything up.

    In the mean time, just cool it with multishot, and use /assist on another damage dealer to ensure your targets are being deleted quickly. The faster your DPS can focus down enemies, the easier encounters will become.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Remind newbie warriors to complete their defensive stance quest. That could be the reason he is having threat troubles.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Remind newbie warriors to complete their defensive stance quest. That could be the reason he is having threat troubles.
    IIRC even for 'tank' specs the game often doesn't give you any kind of AoE threat tools until like level 30, so it's quite possible that for the first couple of low-level dungeons your tank can hold focus on one or two enemies.. and then the ones he can't get to with autoattacks/single-target attacks go haring off after DPS or even the healer just from kind of background threat from the things they do.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Remember the truism that if a mob peels off for the healer, íts either lack of cc or the tanks fault ... if it peels off for a dps, it's solely that dps' fault

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    Remember the truism that if a mob peels off for the healer, íts either lack of cc or the tanks fault ... if it peels off for a dps, it's solely that dps' fault
    Eh, at level 10, if you're a warrior, it can be tough. You've got taunt, sunder armor, and defensive stance. The only AoE threat generation you've got before level 14 is Thunderclap, which requires battle stance, and some rage to bring off. My advice to ultra-low level warrior tanks is: 1) Open with a shot from your ranged weapon, then start tab-targeting through enemies sticking them with rend and sunder as quickly as possible. At level 14, warriors get demoralizing shout, which helps a bit (a very little bit), at 16 they get mocking blow and shield block, and at 20 you get cleave, whereupon AoE threat generation is possible. But even cleave is capped at 4 targets, so big pulls can get away from you.

    That said, I definitely prefer the challenge of Classic WoW aggro management over the modern WoW 'push button to not die' mechanic, because it's so much more interesting and challenging, and the way it actually rewards tanks for itemizing for something other than just being a wad of hit points and armor.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    1) Open with a shot from your ranged weapon...
    And don't forget to run back behind the nearest corner/line-of-sight blocking dungeon feature to force the caster or ranged member of the pull to come up to melee range, or else your melee DPS are going to go chase them down and probably trigger the next patrolling pack prematurely..

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    And don't forget to run back behind the nearest corner/line-of-sight blocking dungeon feature to force the caster or ranged member of the pull to come up to melee range, or else your melee DPS are going to go chase them down and probably trigger the next patrolling pack prematurely..
    I always had the theory that Horde side felt more 'competent' because THIS is so important to clear RFC and Wailing Caverns, while not so much for the early alliance dungeons. Stupid troggs and cultists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    Remember the truism that if a mob peels off for the healer, íts either lack of cc or the tanks fault ... if it peels off for a dps, it's solely that dps' fault
    Speaking as someone who took a Holy Priest to level 60 in Classic WoW, this is very definitely not the case. Rationing out healing and threat management is just as important for the healer as it is for the tank. If you're healing willy-nilly and Power Word Shielding too often, you can and will draw aggro and it is entirely your fault. As weird as it sounds, your job as a healer is actually to heal as LITTLE as possible, both to ration out your mana and to keep your threat low. It does get much easier in the late game, especially in raids where you'll have multiple tanks to handle the aggro.

    The other part is true though. DPS has only themselves to blame for drawing fire...unless you're in a party with a Hunter that drew adds and they decided to Feign Death to let the Mage get eaten instead.

    *whistles innocently, stands in front of character select screen showing multiple Hunters*

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    When I leveled with my friends we often got stuck with no tank, so Id have the pet grab an add, bully it through frost traps (feign death let you drop 2 of them :D) and help a rogue or shaman 'tank' while our priest buddy healed his heart out. It was pretty cool, having to chain CC to not die, although it was pretty subpotimal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Remind newbie warriors to complete their defensive stance quest. That could be the reason he is having threat troubles.
    I mean while I agree on principal, I also try to do such instances as fast as possible. So yeah, if I overaggro it IS my fault. But it is also probably faster to DPS right away than wait for 5 seconds each time. Distracting Shot was worded like it did INCREASE aggro that is why I did not buy it beforehand. Thank you.

    Said tank probably had rage issues since I hardly ever saw more than two stacks of Sunder Armor (or a marked main target, something I put on numpad for retail but havent done for classic or I couldve marked). Everything said and done the dungeon went by smoothly.

    A tiny pet peeve is just that our two clothies rolled Greed on a Robe that increased their stats by a good margin...and then the rogue rolled Need and cosplayed as "pretty princess" for the rest of the dungeon. Idk what the rogue did all the time, he entered the dungeon in exclusively grey items.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Eh, at level 10, if you're a warrior, it can be tough. You've got taunt, sunder armor, and defensive stance. The only AoE threat generation you've got before level 14 is Thunderclap, which requires battle stance, and some rage to bring off. My advice to ultra-low level warrior tanks is: 1) Open with a shot from your ranged weapon, then start tab-targeting through enemies sticking them with rend and sunder as quickly as possible. At level 14, warriors get demoralizing shout, which helps a bit (a very little bit), at 16 they get mocking blow and shield block, and at 20 you get cleave, whereupon AoE threat generation is possible. But even cleave is capped at 4 targets, so big pulls can get away from you.

    That said, I definitely prefer the challenge of Classic WoW aggro management over the modern WoW 'push button to not die' mechanic, because it's so much more interesting and challenging, and the way it actually rewards tanks for itemizing for something other than just being a wad of hit points and armor.
    I agree with your overall point, but I want to point out that rend is a useless skill and you shouldn't be using it for tanking. That time and rage is much better spent being put into sunder or heroic strike. It's really only ever practically useful or tagging a rogue in pvp before they vanish.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I agree with your overall point, but I want to point out that rend is a useless skill and you shouldn't be using it for tanking. That time and rage is much better spent being put into sunder or heroic strike. It's really only ever practically useful or tagging a rogue in pvp before they vanish.
    Rend is fine. Rend costs 10 rage for 25 damage which ignores armor, where Heroic strike costs 15 range for 11 damage which is mitigated by armor. Now Heroic strike does have bonus threat, but not sufficient to overcome its high rage cost. Now Sunder does have more threat, doing 100 (as well as debuffing enemy armor), but that doesn't mean your damage has no effect, and as others have pointed out, you only need to out-threat the healer. You should have plenty of time in your threat cycle to stick on a rend.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Rend is fine. Rend costs 10 rage for 25 damage which ignores armor, where Heroic strike costs 15 range for 11 damage which is mitigated by armor. Now Heroic strike does have bonus threat, but not sufficient to overcome its high rage cost. Now Sunder does have more threat, doing 100 (as well as debuffing enemy armor), but that doesn't mean your damage has no effect, and as others have pointed out, you only need to out-threat the healer. You should have plenty of time in your threat cycle to stick on a rend.
    Heroic strike also replaces an auto attack so it's rage cost is significantly higher than the 15 the ability lists. On the other hand it converts your auto attack into yellow damage, so no chance of glancing blows, so the damage increase is higher than it seems at first glance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    A tiny pet peeve is just that our two clothies rolled Greed on a Robe that increased their stats by a good margin...and then the rogue rolled Need and cosplayed as "pretty princess" for the rest of the dungeon. Idk what the rogue did all the time, he entered the dungeon in exclusively grey items.
    Things people probably tend to forget about when being nostalgic for 'Real WoW' or whatever they perceive Vanilla/Classic to have been. Any random class throwing Need on any random item because it's 'for their alt', 'Hunter loot', or just because they want to.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Heroic strike also replaces an auto attack so it's rage cost is significantly higher than the 15 the ability lists. On the other hand it converts your auto attack into yellow damage, so no chance of glancing blows, so the damage increase is higher than it seems at first glance.
    True, but it can't possible out-damage or out-threat a rend which runs its full course. Now Sunder does out-threat it, but not so amazingly as to dropping one rend every 15 seconds a bad idea.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Things people probably tend to forget about when being nostalgic for 'Real WoW' or whatever they perceive Vanilla/Classic to have been. Any random class throwing Need on any random item because it's 'for their alt', 'Hunter loot', or just because they want to.
    Nostalgia isn't relevant to this problem .It has nothing to do with the game. There's no software patch which will prevent tools from being tools. You can find tools in modern WoW just fine.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    True, but it can't possible out-damage or out-threat a rend which runs its full course. Now Sunder does out-threat it, but not so amazingly as to dropping one rend every 15 seconds a bad idea.
    During a very brief window of time. You'll soon have thunderclap and demo shout using that rage, or cleave.

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