The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    To me, classic is a fine thing. As someone on reddit put it:

    I can dig the roleplaying part. You are not random soldier number 93232 holding Thrall's lantern while he deals with world ending threat number 15. You're a random dude that helps stop a small incursion of demonologists in Orgrimmar. You are a random dude that wakes an important druid from his slumber to not succumb to the Emerald Nightmare. Your class is unique. It can be more powerful than others, it can be weaker. The skill ceiling is not incredibly high but the skill requirement for content is also higher. I like the game.

    But that being said, I do not think I will play beyond 60 much. I lack the time and commitment to even prepare for large raids, I might do a few end game dungeons for the heck of it. If I am seeing Molten Core at all, consider me lucky.
    I was always more of a tourist. I've seen Molten Core, and .. you know, the raid dungeons of Outland and Northrend, I forget their names .. but I was never really interested in grinding them. Sure, I'd play the better ones a few times, grab some good loot - I think I may have done Karazhan ten or twelve times. I liked Karazhan.

    I played MC once, and despite us being (I believe) level 70, Ragnaros wiped us over and over again. 'Twas funny =)

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    You can heal easily while specced into DPS especially considering many Paladin builds dip into Holy for Consecration and Priests can go Wand Spec / Spirit Tap into Disc and have a great time doing damage as well.
    I'm truly happy for you that wanding fits your criteria for a "great time." It was for me too when I had no better gaming options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Retail is a theme park. There's no difficulty, and no depth
    Which world-first Mythic were you again? I forget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    I can dig the roleplaying part. You are not random soldier number 93232 holding Thrall's lantern while he deals with world ending threat number 15. You're a random dude that helps stop a small incursion of demonologists in Orgrimmar. You are a random dude that wakes an important druid from his slumber to not succumb to the Emerald Nightmare. Your class is unique. It can be more powerful than others, it can be weaker. The skill ceiling is not incredibly high but the skill requirement for content is also higher. I like the game.
    I'll give you this - the leveling experience is a bit better when quests aren't treating you like a general or the chosen one or the Speaker For The Horde. For me, the writing should take into account that you are one elite operative among many, even if they have to fudge the numbers a bit. But frankly, they can't keep pretending that you're just a "random dude" when you're helping to stop the likes of Ragnaros and Onyxia, to say nothing of literally anything that happens later. It'd be beyond ridiculous for them to pretend you're not special at all at that point. And that's okay, PCs in any RPG are supposed to be at least a little special, unless you're playing a game with permadeath rotation or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    IWhich world-first Mythic were you again? I forget.
    Don't be like that. The point is incorrect but somewhat legitimate - for the average player, there is no challenge in leveling, dungeons, dailies, LFR, etc. The only difficulty comes from seeking it out - Mythic raids and dungeons, or super high level PvP.

    The average Classic experience is way more challenging - you can die or get stuck leveling, dungeons are a trial, and even doing the endgame grinding can be tough. And then there's also the same difficulties that one can seek out in PvP, max level dungeons, and raiding.

    I find the new player and "average" player experiences on retail are fairly simplistic unless you impose challenges on yourself, which is what I think Anteros was getting at.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    So I am now - once more - a paying member of the community. And yet, I'm unsure: Is this Classic thing truly what I want to play?

    Looking at it overall, it seems like I'd get rid of all the obnoxious chaff - the pets, the appearances, the trikes and warbots, and so on. But on the other hand, what am I gaining? I get to play exclusively content I already know, already played. Hmm ...

    And then there's the question of what to play? My first character was a tauren druid, but do I go back to that, or ..?!

    I suppose no one but me can really answer these vital questions. Eh =)
    I'd recommend playing a different class, just redoing the same content on the same toon is going to get old fast. Then again, I've already played a Hunter, a Mage, and a Warrior to 60 in Vanilla, so I'm very short on classes that interest me. Rogue, maybe? The real question is whether nostalgia alone can carry the experience. It's not that classic WoW isn't good, it's still the best MMO ever made, but no matter what, we've all done it before, which is why I'm personally forbearing. I would much rather see Blizzard actually make a new MMO with a World of Warcraft design philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    All of the stuff people are complaining about here are the things I like about Classic. Retail is a theme park. There's no difficulty, and no depth beyond "here look at this new shiny thing" every few seconds like a pathetic attempt to keep the attention of a child with ADD. Classic makes you work for the rare shiny thing, and you actually appreciate it as a result.

    Would a prefer a new game with similar design over something I've played before? Probably. But since that isn't going to happen I'll continue to enjoy classic.
    Well, I'd agree that the retail base game is a theme park, designed to be filler in between weekly lockout content, ie: raids and mythic dungeons. Everything else in Retail is a time-waster, it's Farmville, Minesweeper, etc. By contrast, Classic is a mountain to climb, you start at the bottom and have to devote time, effort, and (some) skill to reach the top, which feels *so* much more rewarding.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Which world-first Mythic were you again? I forget.
    That's only a challenge to your sleep schedule. Let's dispense with this ridiculous notion that *anything* in WoW, Classic or Modern, is actually mechanically challenging for a healthy 12 year-old. Sure, you might have arthritis or palsy or something which might make pressing the right button at the right time tough, but by and large there's nothing in this game which won't yield to a modest amount of repetition.

    Thus, what passes for 'Elite' in WoW is really just 'I have a lot of /played'.

    But that's besides the point, the issue being complained about is the lack of depth to the base game, you know, the overpowering majority of the content you're paying for, because the publishers have decided to turn what was originally conceived as a RPG for enthusiasts into Farmville.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    That's only a challenge to your sleep schedule. Let's dispense with this ridiculous notion that *anything* in WoW, Classic or Modern, is actually mechanically challenging for a healthy 12 year-old. Sure, you might have arthritis or palsy or something which might make pressing the right button at the right time tough, but by and large there's nothing in this game which won't yield to a modest amount of repetition.

    Thus, what passes for 'Elite' in WoW is really just 'I have a lot of /played'.

    But that's besides the point, the issue being complained about is the lack of depth to the base game, you know, the overpowering majority of the content you're paying for, because the publishers have decided to turn what was originally conceived as a RPG for enthusiasts into Farmville.
    While I agree with the general point, there was plenty in the Classic that was challenging. After all, if it was just rinse and repeating easy content the game wouldn't have been fun. The content that benefited the most from repetition was dungeons, but those also had the greatest number of variables going in - namely, your 5-man party. If you're only playing with a guild of competent players I guess I could see the complaint, but most of the time you were going with a wildly mismatched pickup group that was undergreared, not the right classes, bad at working together...etc., etc. The best groups were often the ones that could rescue a boss fight that had gone badly, as that's where real skill and teamwork came into play.

    There were also difficult skills that could be very rewarding, like kiting the final boss of UBRS. Being able to do that really made you feel like the hero of the raid.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    *snip* greatest number of variables going in - namely, your 5-man party. If you're only playing with a guild of competent players I guess I could see the complaint, but most of the time you were going with a wildly mismatched pickup group that was undergreared, not the right classes, bad at working together...etc., etc. *snip*
    The challenge of WoW was always corralling people (strangers or otherwise) into all being vaguely competent at the same time. In that regard, Classic was way more challenging, as LFG/LFR/Regular mechanics are designed so a group of fools can stumble in and get purples, while a 5 man in Classic will go "Oh you accidentally popped that polymorph? Get ready to wipe!". Not to mention 40-man raids being a cat-herding competition for anything short of a serious guild.

    PvP is likely the best "test of skill" in the game, but of course it's not particularly complex compared to other PvP games, in either Classic or BFA.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'm truly happy for you that wanding fits your criteria for a "great time." It was for me too when I had no better gaming options.
    Classic WoW's design encourages grouping up and Priest's entire kit is perfectly suited for this purpose. If you put as much energy into playing into the Priest's team-assembling kit (looking for groups and tagging along with warriors) as you do into looking for nostalgia glasses on other people's noses you'd have a fulfilling experience without doubt.

    I don't see any problem whatsoever with a dedicated DPS spec that forsakes its healing to not be as efficient a healer as a dedicated healer, even if it's technically very doable (and, may I attest, up until 35-40 you will certainly meet a lot of Rets, Ferals, Shadows and Enhas healing). You can either live with your choices and see the perspective of a full-blown Shadow Priest vs a more Discipline or Holy-oriented build, or you can respec. I proposed a spec that allows you to do decent DPS, removes downtime (SW:P, wanding and Power Word Shield is very cost-efficient), doesn't die (you have sustain) and focuses on healing, and your goalpost is then that slamming points into party talents makes you worse at soloing, in which case I implore you to reroll your Priest to a Mage.

    Again: Why bother wanding stuff by yourself when you can heal a warrior to cut through every mob out there with no downtime?
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-09-11 at 02:39 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    I'd recommend playing a different class, just redoing the same content on the same toon is going to get old fast. Then again, I've already played a Hunter, a Mage, and a Warrior to 60 in Vanilla, so I'm very short on classes that interest me. Rogue, maybe? The real question is whether nostalgia alone can carry the experience. It's not that classic WoW isn't good, it's still the best MMO ever made, but no matter what, we've all done it before, which is why I'm personally forbearing. I would much rather see Blizzard actually make a new MMO with a World of Warcraft design philosophy.
    One imagines they must have a creative team capable of making a new MMO that would be succesful. But then on the other hand, they'd be making a direct competitor for WoW. So there's that.

    This is a complete sidetrack, but I always reasoned that MMO's are really giant chat rooms - or SOME networks - that just happen to have a game incidentally tacked on. The game is fine and all, but after a while, succes or failure of an MMO is really all about the community: Size and composition of player base, tools like friend lists and group finders, and so on.

    I've made a rogue. Not in Classic, I confess, but that's because I honestly don't know what I'd want to play. I feel like I only get one chance in Classic. I mean ... Horde or Alliance? I can't even decide on that =D

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Don't be like that. The point is incorrect but somewhat legitimate - for the average player, there is no challenge in leveling, dungeons, dailies, LFR, etc. The only difficulty comes from seeking it out - Mythic raids and dungeons, or super high level PvP.
    Right, and this is by design - those activities are supposed to be accessible to the widest variety of players, including those across multiple age groups, gamer experience levels, desire/willingness to be social or even with disabilities, and therefore not that challenging at all. Expecting it to be is ludicrous, because that's what endgame is for.

    Now, would I have preferred some means of modulating my own difficulty while leveling - absolutely. Diablo 3 does this decently well - you can change overall difficulty (including lowering it on the fly), and you're rewarded for pushing harder while leveling with better drop rates in the world as well as XP rewards if you're capable of mowing down hordes of monsters over a short period of time. The first MMO that really figures this out is going to have a clear leg up on the competition until Warcraft inevitably steals it. I certainly would have no problem with retail having a more lethal world, but I also know that this game isn't only for medium-core gamers like myself.

    And lest we forget human nature, Classic is only going to be "difficult" up until people are in end-game long enough on their mains for *scrubbed* alts to become widespread.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    That's only a challenge to your sleep schedule. Let's dispense with this ridiculous notion that *anything* in WoW, Classic or Modern, is actually mechanically challenging for a healthy 12 year-old. Sure, you might have arthritis or palsy or something which might make pressing the right button at the right time tough, but by and large there's nothing in this game which won't yield to a modest amount of repetition.

    Thus, what passes for 'Elite' in WoW is really just 'I have a lot of /played'.
    Sure, but by the same token, with infinite time on your hands you could eventually be a brain surgeon too. Some function of difficulty is always going to be the time you have available - that doesn't invalidate the concepts of challenge or skill themselves. That's why things like Ahead of the Curve and Cutting Edge exist, to provide that time limit / achievement.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    But that's besides the point, the issue being complained about is the lack of depth to the base game, you know, the overpowering majority of the content you're paying for, because the publishers have decided to turn what was originally conceived as a RPG for enthusiasts into Farmville.
    Nonsense, what I'm paying for is an experience that only WoW can provide - which means endgame for the most part. Autoattacking different colors of same set of pixels by myself or with the occasional random is very much not it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Classic WoW's design encourages grouping up and Priest's entire kit is perfectly suited for this purpose. If you put as much energy into playing into the Priest's team-assembling kit (looking for groups and tagging along with warriors) as you do into looking for nostalgia glasses on other people's noses you'd have a fulfilling experience without doubt.
    Oh that took no "energy" at all, trust me.

    And as I mentioned repeatedly, I've done the priest team-assembling thing. Priest was my main back in Vanilla, and spamming/begging chat channels was a primary tool in my arsenal. I am never going back to that. At best, my Classic experience will be playing something with more solo potential like mage, hunter, or druid that I didn't do last time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Again: Why bother wanding stuff by yourself when you can heal a warrior to cut through every mob out there with no downtime?
    That definitely feels awesome when that warrior is around, when we're interested in the same zones, when we're on the same stage of the same quests, when we're able to play for the same length of time each night, when we have the same goals etc. That many "whens" wasn't nearly as bad back when I was in college and had fewer demands on my free time.
    Last edited by flat_footed; 2019-09-16 at 08:42 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    I will say this about WoW Classic, as someone who never played it back in the day (I was an Ultima Online kid) it has made me interested to see what's so bad about retail that everybody wanted to go back to a game from 2006. It has some interesting ideas, and I can't say I didn't enjoy the time I spent with it, but I couldn't imagine wanting to make it "my game" full time in this day and age.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Retail is stupid ez mode until you reach the final 10% of the game. When there is no challenge to playing, it becomes harder to ignore that this is the 200th time some npc has asked you to kill 10 whatevers, or collect x number of something. Someone pointed out the chatroom aspect. I agree entirely as you tend to enjoy yourself a lot more when your time is taken up talking with friends than just silently slaughtering pixels over and over again. It really helps extend the length of time you can poke the skinner box hoping for a reward as it gives you more to do. The main reason I played so much in classic was I managed to stumble over my old everquest guild and joined them. It was a large group of old friends taking part in a new game and enjoying figuring it out immensely. Spending 8 hours three times a week trying to clear molten core would have gotten boring SO FREAKING FAST without that aspect. Even with the guild I started running raid nights drunk (spam casting chain heal with a healbot download doesnt make for an engaging experience) after awhile. But with friends it was so much better.
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I will say this about WoW Classic, as someone who never played it back in the day (I was an Ultima Online kid) it has made me interested to see what's so bad about retail that everybody wanted to go back to a game from 2006. It has some interesting ideas, and I can't say I didn't enjoy the time I spent with it, but I couldn't imagine wanting to make it "my game" full time in this day and age.
    Well, a big chunk of that "everybody" is tourism; how big, we won't know for a few months yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Retail is stupid ez mode until you reach the final 10% of the game. When there is no challenge to playing, it becomes harder to ignore that this is the 200th time some npc has asked you to kill 10 whatevers, or collect x number of something. Someone pointed out the chatroom aspect. I agree entirely as you tend to enjoy yourself a lot more when your time is taken up talking with friends than just silently slaughtering pixels over and over again. It really helps extend the length of time you can poke the skinner box hoping for a reward as it gives you more to do. The main reason I played so much in classic was I managed to stumble over my old everquest guild and joined them. It was a large group of old friends taking part in a new game and enjoying figuring it out immensely. Spending 8 hours three times a week trying to clear molten core would have gotten boring SO FREAKING FAST without that aspect. Even with the guild I started running raid nights drunk (spam casting chain heal with a healbot download doesnt make for an engaging experience) after awhile. But with friends it was so much better.
    I totally agree that the challenge of leveling is a huge draw in a game where everyone has to level from scratch. I just hope they find ways to incorporate that challenge in the main game without relying on poorly designed/balanced classes to create it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    The main problem to me is that actual levelling is pretty pointless and quickly done. Content is done for max levels. Even I, a rather casual dude, blizzed through levelling on two characters in BFA in two extended sessions. Couple that with pointless levels (There is no difference between 113 or 116), stupid expected grind (I liked the story lines but they're so inconsequential and lack real stakes. Yea, Bwomsandi, I promise my soul to you, but my Demon Hunter will burn in the Nether or be claimed by the light, depending on whom of my previous patrons you ask).

    Meanwhile in Classic, there is a difference between a Lv 14 and Lv 18 Priest. One has better buffs and probably better skills. And it also had the opportunity to invest skill points into some skills. And hoo boy do I realize how just going down a skill tree for an improved buff makes you so damn liked.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Blizzard actually has a very real problem with designing the open world. In Classic, the world can be difficult because everybody is stuck having nothing. When you're running around with crap tier gear, and so is everyone else, fighting 1-2 mobs is a challenge.


    But on live, you have a huge range of gear. And especially for leveling content, they need to make sure everybody is capable of completing it. And while raiders are okay with replacing their raid gear somewhere around a level or two before hitting the new cap, if you give everyone a hard gear reset the second the expansion goes live there'll be riots (doubly so if you do it mid expansion when a new tier/area opens up).

    As someone who has been playing retail super casually, let me tell you: Nazjatar with 380-390 gear? It is every bit as difficult as leveling in classic. I regularly died to pulling more than 2-3 regular mobs at a time. The one quest that sent you to kill 7 elites I had to do 1 enemy at a time, and it still took about 10 deaths and 2 hours to complete (only to find out it was a quest that rewarded a whopping 50 rep, totally not worth). The world quests with the elite/rare mobs? I had absolutely no chance without waiting around for someone else to show up wanting to do the same quest.

    The problem is? I was in crap tier gear. But most people complaining about lack of challenge are those who have been doing raids and mythic dungeons, and rolled in on day 1 with ilvl 420+. Which is about where I am now after a few months of gearing up through the new content. At that ilvl, regular mobs I can group up as many as I'd like and AoE them down, can take 2-3 elites at once, and can generally solo any world quest I need to. There's a couple exceptions, the weapon empowered elites still need a couple extra people, but for the most part? The experience is every bit as faceroll as retail gets credit for. On the other hand if you go into WoW Classic and get a MC geared level 60 character, you will be blasting your way through any open world zones just as easily. Or even getting like a level 19 *scrubbed* with good gear, those used to be a thing for a reason.

    Either way, given the wide spread of gear ranges, it is literally impossible for it to be any other way. Players want to feel meaningful progression of power as they progress through content, but Blizzard needs to make sure the world content remains accessible for players who aren't taking part in other endgame activities, because if raiding ever became a prerequisite to actually enjoying the world, the game would fall apart.


    I am not sure what the solution is short of dramatically shoring up the power spikes from gear. If gear discrepancies weren't so ridiculous, you could have a much more consistent difficulty design, and make the experience all around better for everyone. Removing gear progression, or even starkly limiting it, takes away a primary reward cycle of the game, I don't think that's realistically a viable option without a major overhaul. So, what do you do?
    Last edited by flat_footed; 2019-09-16 at 08:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    While I agree with the general point, there was plenty in the Classic that was challenging. After all, if it was just rinse and repeating easy content the game wouldn't have been fun. The content that benefited the most from repetition was dungeons, but those also had the greatest number of variables going in - namely, your 5-man party. If you're only playing with a guild of competent players I guess I could see the complaint, but most of the time you were going with a wildly mismatched pickup group that was undergreared, not the right classes, bad at working together...etc., etc. The best groups were often the ones that could rescue a boss fight that had gone badly, as that's where real skill and teamwork came into play.

    There were also difficult skills that could be very rewarding, like kiting the final boss of UBRS. Being able to do that really made you feel like the hero of the raid.
    Most of the challenges you proffer as examples aren't built into the game design, however, they're what you'd call 'emergent gameplay' issues, namely that you're teamed with idiots. And it's the design changes made to pander to these idiots (so as to keep the dungeon queue from turning into a soul-crushing wipe party) which made the modern game what it is today: A bland, unchallenging chore simulator with echoes of Farmville and Pokemon.

    That's not to say that skilled and determined players couldn't do great things, and I'm sure that even in BFA, they can still do great things, but the problem is that great things aren't needful. What makes Classic enjoyable is that you can't just roll your face across the keyboard and defeat normal content.

    And even in Raiding/Mythic, I wouldn't describe the challenges presented there as being mechanically challenging. They just require a base level of competence (have a decent build with decent itemization, and know your rotation, and sufficient perseverance to learn the encounters and/or brute force your way past them. There were a handful of specific itemization grinds gatekeeping content, such as Dark Iron armor for Rag, but otherwise a party of 40 players, all of whom knew their class, and had item level 60 blues equipped, should have little trouble defeating the entire raid in a couple of tries. I know this because I was easily able to lead a 40 man PUG during the 10th Anniversary event, so that we could all get our Core Hounds. Virtually everyone in the group had never set foot in Molten Core before, but fortunately they were decked out Heroic gear (and I'm sure some Epic pieces), an made quick work of the place.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Which world-first Mythic were you again? I forget.
    The fact that you have to default to a tiny percentage of the player base as your example for people that are actually challenged just proves my point. It's also a little bit like saying Barbie Horse Camp can be challenging because you can speedrun it. Not everyone enjoys self imposed challenges like trying to be the first at something. Some people like the game itself to actually challenge us rather than just .000000000001% of the overall content. Personally, I'm not going to invest years of mindless grinding on an easy treadmill just to compete for firsts with the other tiny percentage of players who care about that stuff.

    Also, your entire presence in this thread consists of "Stop liking things I don't like!" Just...why?


    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Snip

    I see your point, but I don't entirely agree. I recently went back to retail after not playing since WoTLK and took a character from 0 to max. At no point in this entire process did I die except for ganks from another faction. At no point did I run into a quest I was forced to group up to complete except for instances. Now maybe the treadmill at max level is more difficult, but I have no desire to do that. Repeating the same tasks over and over with barely any new content just to see numbers go up?

    To be fair, I don't have any interest in raiding in classic either. It's the same problem.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2019-09-12 at 10:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Never been a raider as well. Too much organization required and I have limited time. Besides to me, 10-40 are the most entertaining levels by far. With my characters this time around I plan on hitting class quests and collecting rare pets that I haven't done back in the day and sticking mostly to Alliance since most of my prior experience was with the horde. Gotta level up a horde guy though so I can get the white lion quest to spawn it so my allied hunter can tame it. Humar is a bit over camped and there is always at least one hunter and usually two waiting around his tree at all times.

    All in all, classic is just as much fun still as it was back in the day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    The fact that you have to default to a tiny percentage of the player base as your example for people that are actually challenged just proves my point.
    Not at all - for myself and many others, even Heroic raids and low mythic dungeons are plenty challenging, which is a much bigger percentage of the playerbase. I actually don't care about mythic raiding, but group content is supposed to be the focus of an MMO's endgame (that's what the second "M" means after all), but I can still acknowledge that it's challenging - and certainly more challenging than anything in Classic, as was proven by Classic's current endgame getting conquered in a matter of days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Also, your entire presence in this thread consists of "Stop liking things I don't like!" Just...why?
    I'm not telling you or anyone else to "stop liking" anything. Rather, I'm correcting blatant misconceptions/falsehoods while providing my own opinions on and hopes for Classic. I wasn't aware this was intended to be an echo chamber.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I am not sure what the solution is short of dramatically shoring up the power spikes from gear. If gear discrepancies weren't so ridiculous, you could have a much more consistent difficulty design, and make the experience all around better for everyone. Removing gear progression, or even starkly limiting it, takes away a primary reward cycle of the game, I don't think that's realistically a viable option without a major overhaul. So, what do you do?
    Diablo has a couple of potential solutions to this problem that they could expand on - personal difficulty and killstreaks. In both Diablo and WoW, killing a single mob or a couple of mobs isn't hard at all; but Diablo encourages you to pull much more than that by giving you bonus rewards for doing so (extra XP and speed.) WoW could expand this further by giving you bonus AP and rep. if you're willing to take more risks in the world. Diablo also has a difficulty slider you can crank up for additional rewards at the cost of slower progression (much slower if you die.) Both of these would encourage people to group up as well as use their whole toolkit, something that currently they have no need to do while out in the world. You'd have to solve the issue of people running different difficulties but given how they've implemented expansion-wide mob-scaling I think it's doable.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'm not telling you or anyone else to "stop liking" anything. Rather, I'm correcting blatant misconceptions/falsehoods while providing my own opinions on and hopes for Classic. I wasn't aware this was intended to be an echo chamber.
    Sorry, but this is one of my internet pet peeves.

    A place for discussing something isn't an "echo chamber". A thread like this is for talking about builds, leveling, dungeons, PvP, etc, a discussion zone. It's not about patting each other's back for liking the same thing.

    You're not so much "correcting misconceptions" as you are giving your own opinion. Whether leveling, endgame, or just general gameplay is better in Classic vs BfA is pretty much entirely subjective, and telling people they're wrong for preferring one over the other isn't clearing up a falsehood so much as it is just annoying. I agree with some of your points, and understand why people have different preferences, but don't pretend that posting nothing but negative talk (which isn't even so much about discussing the game as it is just complaining about it and telling people they're wrong) is anything noble or educational.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    So last night I played about 6 hours. Logged on as level 11, did my warrior quest, and then ran to Loch Modan since I don't think I can stomach Westfall for the 137,538th time. Did a few quests there and then decided to run up to Menethil just because. Picked up first aid there, and took the boat to darnassus to get bow training, and the low level quest fishing pole. Finally went back to questing in Lock Modan and logged out.

    Overall, I completed one quest all night, got exactly one level from travel xp, and spent most of my time traversing the world in exactly the manner people in this thread say they hate to do. It was the least efficient session of WoW of all time. And I had a blast.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    A place for discussing something isn't an "echo chamber".
    You're correct, it's not - but I can praise the things I'm interested in about Classic (like I did here, here, and here) while also discussing its flaws. What makes something an echo chamber is when you're only allowed to do the former.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    You're not so much "correcting misconceptions" as you are giving your own opinion. Whether leveling, endgame, or just general gameplay is better in Classic vs BfA is pretty much entirely subjective, and telling people they're wrong for preferring one over the other isn't clearing up a falsehood so much as it is just annoying.
    No, there are objective truths and falsehoods here. Statements like "Retail has no difficulty or depth" and "Retail is Farmville" are objectively false. "Blizzard has a real problem on their hands designing open world content" and "Classic has more of a chatroom aspect than retail" are true, and worth discussing because there are things retail can (and probably should) learn from that.

    Lastly, I haven't told anybody they're "wrong" for enjoying one or the other either. Hyperbole is often wrong though; that's one of my "internet pet peeves."


    Now, with all that digression out of the way, back to discussing Classic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Look, I loved classic WoW. There are a ton of things I think the game did very right in classic and I enjoyed it greatly. However, we cant allow ourselves to forget all the truly terrible things that existed that we havent experienced for a decade now. Good luck running a dungeon without a eager guild. Yeah NOW its probably fairly easy due to everything being new and exciting so the zones are crowded. I remember those days. New expansion comes out EVERYONE wants to help the group quests and run dungeons because they need it too. A couple months later, good luck.
    I think running a dungeon is pretty easy (well, provided you don't wipe and have to run out) at the moment given the current level of engagement. The question will be whether they can sustain that once the majority of Classicists(?) are done leveling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    That optimism is just ADORABLE.

    No, there were no meeting stones. I don't think they introduced meeting stones until shortly before Burning Crusade came out. I definitely had at least one character at level 60 before it happened, and I wasn't exactly powerleveling.

    Finding a group involved spamming chat in Orgrimmar or Ironforge for hours, with another member of your group in the zone of the dungeon spamming the chat there. You then all made your way to the dungeon entrance independently, or at least as far as you could get without running into Elites. Often this meant trying to guide newbies to the entrance of the dungeon via text alone, or manually walking your ass out to the flight master to meet them and lead them by the hand to the instance.
    At the very least, guiding people to the entrance is a little less of a chore. Most people can find it, especially the ones who were playing on private servers. (Except BRD I suppose, I still get lost going there.)

    For the rest - I couldn't agree more. I wouldn't mind something in between this and LFG. Wasn't there an LFG chat channel? Or even a place you could list yourself as "interested in running" and then go about your business in the world, and people who ended up needing a 5th or whatever get one-stop shopping. I can't remember what patch that got replaced with the automated queue but that might be a good compromise. (I'm of course thinking more of "Classic+" at this point, it's far too early to break with #NoChanges.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Are 20 minute long flightpaths still a thing in modern WoW? Because that alone is enough to keep me away. I didn't mind as a college student, but these days I just have better things to do.
    Sort of? There's more portals now, and most folks have flying in every zone, so you can usually point your mount in a straight line and get where you're going faster than a flight path. I usually use those times to go refill my drink or whatever though, so I don't mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Sort of? There's more portals now, and most folks have flying in every zone, so you can usually point your mount in a straight line and get where you're going faster than a flight path. I usually use those times to go refill my drink or whatever though, so I don't mind.
    This method of course comes with the risk of forgetting about what you were doing in WoW and flying into a fatigue zone, where you will soon die horribly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    This method of course comes with the risk of forgetting about what you were doing in WoW and flying into a fatigue zone, where you will soon die horribly.
    On a related / cool note, GTFO plays its "move immediately!" sound when you go into a fatigue zone. This hasn't happened to me often but it helps a lot with alt-tabbing back.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Heh, I wonder if the wall-running bug got brought back intact for Classic. I remember having tons of fun exploring the Ironforge Airport and charging around the unused zone you could get to from...the Badlands? I think it was the Badlands where you could get OOB.

    I managed to find a single tile of ground that was missing and fell down a crevasse that dwindled to a single pixel. I wound up having to wait 20 minutes for my Hearthstone to recharge in order to escape.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    No, there are objective truths and falsehoods here. Statements like "Retail has no difficulty or depth" and "Retail is Farmville" are objectively false.
    Good thing nobody has uttered such an unqualified statement. The sentiment expressed has been, as I understand it, and have tried to express it, is that the portions of the game which aren't rate-limited by weekly lockouts are lacking difficulty and depth, and do resemble Farmville.

    I think running a dungeon is pretty easy (well, provided you don't wipe and have to run out) at the moment given the current level of engagement. The question will be whether they can sustain that once the majority of Classicists(?) are done leveling.
    Well, running out of content is a threat in any persistent game, new or old, casual or hardcore. Sooner or later, you will have seen everything there is to see.

    At the very least, guiding people to the entrance is a little less of a chore. Most people can find it, especially the ones who were playing on private servers. (Except BRD I suppose, I still get lost going there.)
    See, I love making the entrances hard to get to, and I loved BRD, the complexity of the layout makes it sooo much more engaging and immersive than just 'click queue to be teleported to start of monster-filled hallway'.

    For the rest - I couldn't agree more. I wouldn't mind something in between this and LFG. Wasn't there an LFG chat channel? Or even a place you could list yourself as "interested in running" and then go about your business in the world, and people who ended up needing a 5th or whatever get one-stop shopping. I can't remember what patch that got replaced with the automated queue but that might be a good compromise. (I'm of course thinking more of "Classic+" at this point, it's far too early to break with #NoChanges.)
    I think providing a more feature rich 'dungeon bulletin board' would be great, and wouldn't consign people to just picking their toes in Orgrimmar, shouting at an uncaring sky. I also think something like the 'Call for Backup' function that's in The Division 2 has potential. In that game, your matchmaking requests are broadcast at the outset of a mission, and the ISAC, the dispatcher AI, tells every ungrouped agent there's somebody looking for a team. Something like that, using meeting stones and magic for the fluff, could work okay, I feel. But perhaps that second concepts founders on the hard role limitations in WoW, it does you no good to advertise for just anyone when you need a healer or a tank.

    At day's end, it's these 'staffing' problems that ultimately limit WoW's future, Classic or Retail. Newer games are embedding more flexibility in their character design, so that you don't have 4 players kicking their heels waiting or a tank to show up.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Good thing nobody has uttered such an unqualified statement. The sentiment expressed has been, as I understand it, and have tried to express it, is that the portions of the game which aren't rate-limited by weekly lockouts are lacking difficulty and depth, and do resemble Farmville.
    You've now shifted the goalposts from "retail" to "portions of the game" - but fine, it's less hyperbolic so I'll take it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Well, running out of content is a threat in any persistent game, new or old, casual or hardcore. Sooner or later, you will have seen everything there is to see.
    Oh indeed - though I can't help but point out one big difference in this case, i.e. that retail doesn't have a vociferous "#NoChanges" contingent that will storm the gates if they even begin to propose adding anything new.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    See, I love making the entrances hard to get to, and I loved BRD, the complexity of the layout makes it sooo much more engaging and immersive than just 'click queue to be teleported to start of monster-filled hallway'.
    I actually don't mind fighting my way to the entrance of a dungeon - I still have fond memories of doing that in Deadmines and Sunken Temple. In fact, I even like there being some elites outside, as it gives you the sense that whatever threat is inside the dungeon is "spilling out" into the world at large and thus heroes are needed. But that's a real pain if you don't finish the dungeon in time before those mobs start to respawn, and I still think BRD is just a poorly-designed mess that to this day can't decide if it's trying to be a dungeon or a raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    I think providing a more feature rich 'dungeon bulletin board' would be great, and wouldn't consign people to just picking their toes in Orgrimmar, shouting at an uncaring sky. I also think something like the 'Call for Backup' function that's in The Division 2 has potential. In that game, your matchmaking requests are broadcast at the outset of a mission, and the ISAC, the dispatcher AI, tells every ungrouped agent there's somebody looking for a team. Something like that, using meeting stones and magic for the fluff, could work okay, I feel. But perhaps that second concepts founders on the hard role limitations in WoW, it does you no good to advertise for just anyone when you need a healer or a tank.

    At day's end, it's these 'staffing' problems that ultimately limit WoW's future, Classic or Retail. Newer games are embedding more flexibility in their character design, so that you don't have 4 players kicking their heels waiting or a tank to show up.
    [/quote]

    This highlights another of Classic's strengths (oh hey, just look at this balanced critique) - i.e. that getting a "healer" or a "tank" while leveling can mean a dedicated build, or a dps hybrid that can throw a shield on and knows which buttons generate aggro, or a hybrid caster that remembered their water.

    In any event, this is ultimately the biggest conundrum of multiplayer RPGs; on the one hand you're right, and the "holy trinity" limits both content design as well as individual parties. On the other, people also like/identify with defined roles, such as being the group's medic or wall. And since you have to dsign the game with those folks in mind, it makes designing content for anyone else harder, because a team of specialists that each excel at their chosen role is always going to be better than at team of generalists who are just passable at everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Heh, I wonder if the wall-running bug got brought back intact for Classic.
    I think things like that got fixed. Blinking mages could easily fall through terrain too.

    because a team of specialists that each excel at their chosen role is always going to be better than at team of generalists who are just passable at everything.
    Not necessarily if the game requires a good deal of every role from every character. Heroes of the Storm also somewhat has adopted a middleground between the trinity and MOBA style roles.

    Utility brought by hybrid builds and should always shine in my honest opinion. But then I was always more of a fan of "bring the CLASS not the player" since retail classes feel unique AND samey at the same time.

    A hybrid elemental/restoration shaman should be able to bring 70% of damage, healing and its unique supports compared to the 100% healing of a holy priest. That way a group that does not require that much healing should be able to switch to a shaman healer easily.

    In the same vein however it should only be fair that a priest that is idling because there is not much damage incoming could adapt his playstyle to help deal damage if not by much. Basically what I am aiming at is a profile in a few areas that is set for most classes and can be adapted by talents.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    In the same vein however it should only be fair that a priest that is idling because there is not much damage incoming could adapt his playstyle to help deal damage if not by much. Basically what I am aiming at is a profile in a few areas that is set for most classes and can be adapted by talents.
    From my recollection of the whole Priest wanding thing, the problem is twofold.

    1) If you spend mana on non-healing stuff and the fight goes south for some reason, you get the blame for taking an unnecessary risk.

    2) If you spend mana on non-healing stuff and the fight goes perfectly fine...you still get yelled at by nervous teammates because the fight MIGHT have gone south.

    It's different if you're with friends who trust you, but PUGs tend to be pretty unfriendly about players who break out of their designated role. Trying to get groups to allow a Hunter to use their utility skills was always such a struggle that I just didn't bother unless the group was unusually smart. Priests were even worse to play as, because your role is so much more important.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    I think running a dungeon is pretty easy (well, provided you don't wipe and have to run out) at the moment given the current level of engagement. The question will be whether they can sustain that once the majority of Classicists(?) are done leveling.
    Yes, thats my point. NOW its relatively easy because its the start of a new game and lots and lots of people want to do the exact same thing as you. Give it a couple months and the number of eager participants will dwindle outside of an eager to help guild. Its what happened in every expansion early on. I remember in tbc especially it was an issue. When it first came out it was so easy to get people to join you on group quests and such because they either needed to do it too, or it was new enough they hadnt run it so often as to despise the sight of the quest. Then after a few months you had to rely on your guild to unlock various things because everyone already ran their mains through it and helped other people a few times and now they want nothing to do with it.
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