The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Apparently Raggy is dying pre-submerge and the other MC bosses are dying in 30 seconds. If true, that is just nuts.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Apparently Raggy is dying pre-submerge and the other MC bosses are dying in 30 seconds. If true, that is just nuts.
    How is that possible? Did they not actually make the game fully classic balance wise? Or are they doing that weird paladin reckoning bomb trick or whatever it was called where they can save up damage then unleash enough to obliterate a raid boss in a single round?
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Infinite reck-bomb was patched out within <1 day of it happening if memory serves, and so I doubt they accidentally put it back in.

    But it's hardly surprising to me that Rag is going down before the first submerge. In the world-first Classic clear of MC, APES had him down to 32% before first submerge. Getting that last 3rd down with a couple weeks of improved gearing seems quite reasonable (especially when you factor in that they're running with 11 warriors so they really only need 12% before mass execute spamming begins). Heck, if you look at their raid makeup, it was 11 warriors, 9 mages, 6 priests, 6 paladins, 4 warlocks, 2 rogues, 1 hunter, 1 druid. Patch 1.12 be balanced, yo.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    This is a retail question to anyone who still plays BfA and doesn't deserve its own thread:

    Spoiler: Retail question
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    What's a spec with lots of buttons to press and multiple personal cooldowns to use while levelling? I thought I'd have fun with a Prot Paladin because I like heals and utility, but ultimately I find myself kinda doing the same thing over and over and not really changing it up all that much, and no one really needs my utility in 5 mans. Was thinking Warrior, Rogue or Mage.
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    A hybrid elemental/restoration shaman should be able to bring 70% of damage, healing and its unique supports compared to the 100% healing of a holy priest. That way a group that does not require that much healing should be able to switch to a shaman healer easily.
    But that's every group eventually. The Priest who brings 100% healing and 40% damage compared to the Shaman who brings 70% of both, with a few upgrades, becomes P130%/70% S100%/100% for example - but 130% healing is unnecessary (especially if the tank gets geared too), while more damage is always useful. In short, the Priest becomes more useless as time goes on, and that's not a good feeling.

    I prefer the current method of bringing utility in other ways - like how that priest and shaman can put out equal raw numbers, but the priest is the king of dispels with an aggro dump and a unique cc in the form of MC, while the Shaman has a unique heal in the form of Spirit Link, can break charm and fear, and has an emergency tank in their pocket if the main one goes down with very little boss health left.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Yes, thats my point. NOW its relatively easy because its the start of a new game and lots and lots of people want to do the exact same thing as you. Give it a couple months and the number of eager participants will dwindle outside of an eager to help guild. Its what happened in every expansion early on. I remember in tbc especially it was an issue. When it first came out it was so easy to get people to join you on group quests and such because they either needed to do it too, or it was new enough they hadnt run it so often as to despise the sight of the quest. Then after a few months you had to rely on your guild to unlock various things because everyone already ran their mains through it and helped other people a few times and now they want nothing to do with it.
    Agreed, but TBC at least had other reasons to farm lower level dungeons though, like Aldor/Scryers rep tokens, mats like Netherweave/Adamantite, and even some unique benefits like the vendor who would show up in Durnholde. So while there was a drop-off you still had good odds of getting help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    How is that possible? Did they not actually make the game fully classic balance wise? Or are they doing that weird paladin reckoning bomb trick or whatever it was called where they can save up damage then unleash enough to obliterate a raid boss in a single round?
    The game is balanced, yeah; what changed was us.

    What would happen at this point on live is that the boss would be buffed (not that this sort of performance by a end-raid boss would have made it out of testing anyway.) But, #NoChanges and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    This is a retail question to anyone who still plays BfA and doesn't deserve its own thread:

    Spoiler: Retail question
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    What's a spec with lots of buttons to press and multiple personal cooldowns to use while levelling? I thought I'd have fun with a Prot Paladin because I like heals and utility, but ultimately I find myself kinda doing the same thing over and over and not really changing it up all that much, and no one really needs my utility in 5 mans. Was thinking Warrior, Rogue or Mage.
    Arcane and Frost mage are both more complicated rotations than most. Windwalker monk isn't difficult but the mastery does keep you engaged. Paladin has been easy-mode since vanilla.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    *scrubbed* if some twitch group that has been running the same boss for 10 years on repeat finds it too easy. *scrubbed* Or that it's inherently flawed because of it. Outside of the Twitch crowd and a few people using it to go "See classic is the suck!1!!" no one cares what they do. We're not playing the game for them. We're playing it for us.

    Besides, I'm sure if you picked any boss that isn't a pure gearcheck and gave a group of no-lifers 10 years to run it on repeat to find the optimal compositions and strategies you'd get similar results.
    Last edited by flat_footed; 2019-09-16 at 09:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    *scrub the post, scrub the quote* if some twitch group that has been running the same boss for 10 years on repeat finds it too easy. *scrub the post, scrub the quote* Or that it's inherently flawed because of it. Outside of the Twitch crowd and a few people using it to go "See classic is the suck!1!!" no one cares what they do. We're not playing the game for them. We're playing it for us.

    Besides, I'm sure if you picked any boss that isn't a pure gearcheck and gave a group of no-lifers 10 years to run it on repeat to find the optimal compositions and strategies you'd get similar results.
    Thank you. The reason Rag is easy is that it's a year 1 encounter, with virtually no tricky mechanics, just an immobile targeting dummy. Well, after being trained for years on ruthless efficiency and much more annoying square-dance, instant-lose mechanics to throttle progression, a straightforward boss fight where competent execution results in swift victory doesn't mean very much.

    And if it does mean anything, it means this: hash-table resolved games require those BS, instant-lose mechanics to keep everything from just being a comparison of spreadsheets, ie: Player DPS & Healing Versus Boss Damage and Health. And that fact, more than anything, is why I'm not re-subbing for Classic, and why I don't give it a very good long-term prognosis. The core gameplay is limited by the constraints of the game engine, and always will be.
    Last edited by flat_footed; 2019-09-16 at 09:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    I'll probably stay subbed to classic, for now, even though I agree that it doesn't have much long term potential. Getting bored when I run out of content is a problem for the far future. Right now, I'm still in Westfall on my first character.

    Also, it sends a message to Blizzard and other companies that people are actually interested in this type of game. Maybe someone will actually make a new game someday of the same type. Or maybe it'll encourage Blizzard to move the retail version somewhat back to its roots. Although I doubt the latter would ever happen.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    *scrub the post, scrub the quote*
    Assuming you're speaking to me, I've suggested no such thing I merely stated what would have likely happened if a live boss was that undertuned - not that they should go do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Or that it's inherently flawed because of it.

    Besides, I'm sure if you picked any boss that isn't a pure gearcheck and gave a group of no-lifers 10 years to run it on repeat to find the optimal compositions and strategies you'd get similar results.
    I view it less as an "inherent flaw", and more as a unique conundrum for Blizzard. Presumably Blizzard wants the content to last for a long time (months? years?), and maybe it even will; but they are also hamstrung (however correctly) from making any of that content more challenging. It's a bit of a paradox because one of the draws of Classic, as I recall it from being on the forums, is that you were supposed to get a "true sense of achievement" from earning your rewards, that retail hands out epic gear like candy, that you could tell who the "elites" are just by looking at them in town because there is no transmog etc. But if strategies emerge that allow groups to farm these bosses with ease and Blizzard can't respond to any of them with tuning, all of that achievement gets diluted. Even with Classic's much more meager gear drops, getting to the "farm" stage of a given boss that much faster makes funneling gear that much easier.
    Last edited by flat_footed; 2019-09-16 at 09:14 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Assuming you're speaking to me, I've suggested no such thing I merely stated what would have likely happened if a live boss was that undertuned - not that they should go do that.



    I view it less as an "inherent flaw", and more as a unique conundrum for Blizzard. Presumably Blizzard wants the content to last for a long time (months? years?), and maybe it even will; but they are also hamstrung (however correctly) from making any of that content more challenging. It's a bit of a paradox because one of the draws of Classic, as I recall it from being on the forums, is that you were supposed to get a "true sense of achievement" from earning your rewards, that retail hands out epic gear like candy, that you could tell who the "elites" are just by looking at them in town because there is no transmog etc. But if strategies emerge that allow groups to farm these bosses with ease and Blizzard can't respond to any of them with tuning, all of that achievement gets diluted. Even with Classic's much more meager gear drops, getting to the "farm" stage of a given boss that much faster makes funneling gear that much easier.
    I think that there's fundamentally not much overlap with the type of person who wants to play a 10 year old video game with no changes and the type of person who is going to try to get raids together in a streamlined manner they saw on Twitch to do things as fast as possible. These people who are AoE farming SM, or trying to speedrun Rag, or whatever other method they're coming up with to try to circumvent the vast majority of the game's actual content are never going to be satisfied anyway, and are the absolute last people the company needs to cater to.

    They're trying to play an entirely different type of game than intended. More power to them if they enjoy it, but I don't want my experience tailored to them in any way.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Well, if what they're after are Vanilla's rewards and recognition (PvE ones anyway), I'd argue the game's already tailored to them due to Blizzard's inability to throw curveballs without running afoul of the #NoChanges crowd.

    If it's evolving challenge they want though, I agree - Classic isn't necessarily the place for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    They're trying to play an entirely different type of game than intended. More power to them if they enjoy it, but I don't want my experience tailored to them in any way.
    Intended by whom? I think intention is a meta-flaw in game design, especially in the MMO/Sandbox space. That's not to say you shouldn't have an idea of how your game is going to be fun, but I feel that Retail's constraint of the reward loop to a limited subset of the game's content is a weakness that Classic currently lacks.

    This isn't to say you're wrong, the designers shouldn't cater the game design just to keep the sweatiest of the hardcore player base thwarted, to the expense of everyone else, but by the same token, it's also a mistake to make a game so accessible that it devolves into Mario-Kart. My ideal is a system in which difficulty is a voluntary setting, rewarding the rate of rewards, in lieu of their quality, like Diablo 3 does.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well, if what they're after are Vanilla's rewards and recognition (PvE ones anyway), I'd argue the game's already tailored to them due to Blizzard's inability to throw curveballs without running afoul of the #NoChanges crowd.

    If it's evolving challenge they want though, I agree - Classic isn't necessarily the place for that.
    Consider me skeptical that anyone who bases their gameplay style around abusing the system to avoid 99% of the content in order to clear things as fast as possible is looking for evolving challenge. The pride of being the first person to 60 and sitting on their epic mounts by the AH as the "scrubs" run by and admire them? Maybe. These are the types of people who are going to leave classic very quickly, complaining that they're run out of content. Nevermind the fact that they intentionally skipped most of it. It's like someone who only reads the last page of a book and then complains it's too short. You're right that these people are going to leave the game in droves. I don't care though. They won't be missed by players like me who are enjoying the game itself rather than racing to "complete" it.


    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Intended by whom? I think intention is a meta-flaw in game design, especially in the MMO/Sandbox space. That's not to say you shouldn't have an idea of how your game is going to be fun, but I feel that Retail's constraint of the reward loop to a limited subset of the game's content is a weakness that Classic currently lacks.

    This isn't to say you're wrong, the designers shouldn't cater the game design just to keep the sweatiest of the hardcore player base thwarted, to the expense of everyone else, but by the same token, it's also a mistake to make a game so accessible that it devolves into Mario-Kart. My ideal is a system in which difficulty is a voluntary setting, rewarding the rate of rewards, in lieu of their quality, like Diablo 3 does.
    I don't think classic is that trivial. It's not hard by any means, but it's not trivial either. You can't compare the experience of an average person who can only play a few hours per night, a few times a week, to these people who rush the endgame to get things done as fast as possible. I also don't think any of this matters, because even if they need to change things to make raids more difficult they won't. Changes like that are for retail.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I don't think classic is that trivial. It's not hard by any means, but it's not trivial either. You can't compare the experience of an average person who can only play a few hours per night, a few times a week, to these people who rush the endgame to get things done as fast as possible. I also don't think any of this matters, because even if they need to change things to make raids more difficult they won't. Changes like that are for retail.
    No, Molten Core isn't Mario-Kart, I am merely using hyperbole to make my point. I'm just trying to emphasize the need for balancing any game's challenge against a reasonable standard of difficulty that any moderately healthy, reasonably persistent player can achieve. If you want to put in a challenge mode, by all means do so. But I feel it's critical important to keep power parity among the player base, otherwise you're just segmenting your community by content tier, which is unhealthy for the game. Moderation is the message I'm trying to preach, here.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Assuming you're speaking to me, I've suggested no such thing I merely stated what would have likely happened if a live boss was that undertuned - not that they should go do that.



    I view it less as an "inherent flaw", and more as a unique conundrum for Blizzard. Presumably Blizzard wants the content to last for a long time (months? years?), and maybe it even will; but they are also hamstrung (however correctly) from making any of that content more challenging. It's a bit of a paradox because one of the draws of Classic, as I recall it from being on the forums, is that you were supposed to get a "true sense of achievement" from earning your rewards, that retail hands out epic gear like candy, that you could tell who the "elites" are just by looking at them in town because there is no transmog etc. But if strategies emerge that allow groups to farm these bosses with ease and Blizzard can't respond to any of them with tuning, all of that achievement gets diluted. Even with Classic's much more meager gear drops, getting to the "farm" stage of a given boss that much faster makes funneling gear that much easier.
    Frankly none of the bosses in Molten Core were ever particularly hard. The 'hard' part was getting 40 people online at the same time that actually vaguely knew what they were doing - and anybody that actually ran a damage or healing meter during raids knew that there were often LARGE gaps of efficiency in same-class people in the raid that had nothing to do with gear. When I got my hunter quest item from MC and went out to kill the guys for the bow, I watched a hunter from another guild in full T2 from BWL fail miserably twice in a row to kill one of the mobs, and I 1 shot it easily wearing I think 3 MC purples and the rest blues.

    People showing up with TERRIBLE talent specs for the patch (Arcane mage, for instance for a long time), people not even having enchants on their purple gear weeks later, not bringing potions, using useless abilities like hunter venom shot. And the lack of a talent inspector meant it was functionally impossible to actually either help improve or enforce optimal builds among the lower-performing people. When we actually got reasonably staffed and skilled, my guild ran 2 MC and BWL teams to farm more drops and frequently were running with 30-35 when some people didn't show up, and had plenty of alts from each team filling out the raid because it really was just that easy. I was raid leader of team 2 for quite a while, I used to take randos from Ironforge to Onyxia to let them forge their Quel'Serrar.

    In addition, keep in mind that during the run of Classic, new blue dungeons were introduced with far better items, and quality of a number of drops was significantly altered. By comparison a lot of the original blue class sets were complete trash and MC Tier 1 sets were NOT great items for their class because they had so much of their value wrapped up in wasted stats like extra Stamina and Fire Resistance.

    I went into Naxxramas in original on my hunter still wearing Cape of the Black Baron because it was just better for DPS than almost anything else pre-AQ.

    So starting with the already rebalanced and improved blues, knowledge of where all the easily farmable blue drops are, and a team of people that are actually good at playing their class? Yeah, Onyxia, Molten Core, 20 man AQ, ZG, all of these can be beaten easily and efficiently by a team of properly specced and knowledgeable raiders in blues. BWL if you can get past Vael enrage check (which you should be able to easily with proper team setup), then you can clear the rest of the dungeon in blues easily as long as you have enough tranq shots. As long as you have tank resist sets for the dragon LOS battle with the fire aura and shadow breath (whose name escapes me at this particular moment), none of the bosses hit particularly hard and are not really a threat to the raid as long as the tank doesn't die, enrage timers, if they existed, were so ridiculously long as to functionally not exist.

    Classic Naxxramas, on the other hand, absolutely cannot be beaten by raiders in blues. You might be able to cheese Razuvious (spelling?) or the spider wing, but no way in **** you're killing bosses like Patchwerk or Loatheb or Thaddeus or the 4 horsemen with blue geared tanks and DPS.
    Last edited by Olinser; 2019-09-18 at 01:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    Frankly none of the bosses in Molten Core were ever particularly hard. The 'hard' part was getting 40 people online at the same time that actually vaguely knew what they were doing.
    Agreed 100%. The 'elite player' in virtually any progression game who is willing to do some offline research to determine what is an effective build. Virtually none of these games use mechanics and formulae which are immediately intuitive to a casual player. I remember running raids in BC where I was explaining to a level 70 hunter the basics of his rotational priority. I mained warrior at the time, but had a hunter alt I played for fun.

    For me, I define hard like this: Even knowing what you're supposed to be doing, it's not easy to do, and nothing in WoW, or any other hash-table driven combat system, really qualifies. Maybe healing whack-a-mole for a raid healer, but I feel that's a problem which can largely be addressed through dividing up responsibility, and good UI optimization. Same with DoT juggling for an Affliction lock. Is configuring an addon hard? Is paying attention to GTFO hard?

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Virtually none of these games use mechanics and formulae which are immediately intuitive to a casual player.
    I disagree if not heavily. A hunter is immediately obvious I feel.

    You need arrows. Hunter's Mark is a debuff so you should start off with it. Serpent Sting does damage over time so you should start with that next. Arcane Shot is available more often and does good damage but is expensive so just use sparingly. None of these mechanics is particularly cryptic. If anything, the controls are clunky as hell (without a macro, your pet is basically sightseeing all the time).

    Of course this requires actually READING your damn skills at least once.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    I disagree if not heavily. A hunter is immediately obvious I feel.

    You need arrows. Hunter's Mark is a debuff so you should start off with it. Serpent Sting does damage over time so you should start with that next. Arcane Shot is available more often and does good damage but is expensive so just use sparingly. None of these mechanics is particularly cryptic. If anything, the controls are clunky as hell (without a macro, your pet is basically sightseeing all the time).

    Of course this requires actually READING your damn skills at least once.
    You can kill stuff with a hunter without reading a guide, but if you want to make optimal talent and gearing and rotational decisions, you're going to know more than what the tooltips tell you. There is no documentation in the rules on how to make a pet attack macro, or how to automatically disable auto-attack and pet attack when you drop a freezing trap or use scatter shot. You have to find these things yourself. In the general population in classic, you would find no shortage of melee hunters, claiming they were perfectly viable. I had a huge argument with a friend playing a shaman who simply refused to not deploy his searing totem when we were using CC. I don't think learning these things is hard, but that doesn't stop a sizable percentage of the population from not knowing them, or at least not using them.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    You can kill stuff with a hunter without reading a guide, but if you want to make optimal talent and gearing and rotational decisions, you're going to know more than what the tooltips tell you. There is no documentation in the rules on how to make a pet attack macro, or how to automatically disable auto-attack and pet attack when you drop a freezing trap or use scatter shot. You have to find these things yourself. In the general population in classic, you would find no shortage of melee hunters, claiming they were perfectly viable. I had a huge argument with a friend playing a shaman who simply refused to not deploy his searing totem when we were using CC. I don't think learning these things is hard, but that doesn't stop a sizable percentage of the population from not knowing them, or at least not using them.
    The increasing reliance on add-ons and macros was another of the reasons I quit. To me, using an add-on is modding the game, and as such cheating. By the time of WotLK they were pretty much required, because Blizzard was amping up the difficulty to keep up with people using add-ons. Some people would outright kick you from a group for not using the correct add-on. Simply playing the game with the provided interface was actively frowned upon!

    I mean, if you have to be warned about running a macro because it can cause your account to get hacked, why the heck is that a major part of your game?

    This also explains some of the discrepancy in percieved player skill. If you're running a macro that automatically makes you use a Freezing Trap correctly with a single button click, then of course you're going to find that the game requires less skill than someone who is managing their pet and manually disengaging from combat with an enemy they're luring into a freezing trap.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    The increasing reliance on add-ons and macros was another of the reasons I quit. To me, using an add-on is modding the game, and as such cheating. By the time of WotLK they were pretty much required, because Blizzard was amping up the difficulty to keep up with people using add-ons. Some people would outright kick you from a group for not using the correct add-on. Simply playing the game with the provided interface was actively frowned upon!

    I mean, if you have to be warned about running a macro because it can cause your account to get hacked, why the heck is that a major part of your game?

    This also explains some of the discrepancy in percieved player skill. If you're running a macro that automatically makes you use a Freezing Trap correctly with a single button click, then of course you're going to find that the game requires less skill than someone who is managing their pet and manually disengaging from combat with an enemy they're luring into a freezing trap.
    That's a big part of why I quit during WotLK, the add-on nonsense just got ridiculous. That and I realized not only would I never see any of the 'main' story because it was all behind the raids I didn't have the time or friends to bother with...I increasingly didn't care about it because Blizard's writing is...certainly writing.
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Didnt pets have a 'passive' button from the start? My main was a hunter and I never noticed any pet issue. it was a little bar all its own, not sure where the mistery is.

    As for itemization, hit up the minimum then crit then AP. Dex gives AP, so if this has more AP than this piece with Dex would give, then the AP one wins. Dex also gives crit, but at such a low % that straight crit percent is always better. All of this is clearly stated in the game, not sure what the mistery is. Weapon speed as well, there are things that cycle with your auto attack, and they have a cool down, so obviously you want your speed so you can weave stuff in between those.

    Consumables make such a world of difference, to the point where a fully buffed guy in proper blues could outdo a buffless guy in his epic class set most of the time. But most people found farming them tedious or expensive and boring and thus didnt bother with it.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Didnt pets have a 'passive' button from the start? My main was a hunter and I never noticed any pet issue. it was a little bar all its own, not sure where the mistery is.
    Sure, but pet passive just has your pet heel next to you, so you can spend a bunch of needless energy/keypresses micro-managing your pet, or just put a macro into one or more of your rotational abilities, and then just automatically get reasonably intelligent pet behavior.


    As for itemization, hit up the minimum then crit then AP. Dex gives AP, so if this has more AP than this piece with Dex would give, then the AP one wins. Dex also gives crit, but at such a low % that straight crit percent is always better. All of this is clearly stated in the game, not sure what the mistery is. Weapon speed as well, there are things that cycle with your auto attack, and they have a cool down, so obviously you want your speed so you can weave stuff in between those.
    Yes, we know, but you need to find that stuff out, and many, many of the player base, even back in Vanilla, could not be bothered to find or follow this advice.

    Consumables make such a world of difference, to the point where a fully buffed guy in proper blues could outdo a buffless guy in his epic class set most of the time. But most people found farming them tedious or expensive and boring and thus didnt bother with it.
    And there's another hangup for the less well-connected raider: You often did not find raid members willing to do their homework and show up with consumables. Flasks? What's that? Those herbs are worth gold, so I can spend it on a wildly overpriced purple stat stick with strength on it, for my hunter! Thorium ammo? Too expensive, I'll use cheap arrows, I'm only losing 16 DPS, what's the big deal?

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Sure, but pet passive just has your pet heel next to you, so you can spend a bunch of needless energy/keypresses micro-managing your pet, or just put a macro into one or more of your rotational abilities, and then just automatically get reasonably intelligent pet behavior.
    Well, if its not off-tanking (which it should be in a 5-man) then its fine if it stays at the side. Dunno, its not like being a hunter is all that hard, and there is always feign death if you screw up (and you can freezing trap out of feign death, since it takes you out of combat, so if you pull it off quickly you can trap 2 mobs :D).

    Yes, we know, but you need to find that stuff out, and many, many of the player base, even back in Vanilla, could not be bothered to find or follow this advice.
    You say 'find' like it takes more than hovering over the stat and reading the tooltip. 'mandatory reliance on external sites' makes it seem like its all some arcane mistery, when its just caring a bit and its all in-game.

    And there's another hangup for the less well-connected raider: You often did not find raid members willing to do their homework and show up with consumables. Flasks? What's that? Those herbs are worth gold, so I can spend it on a wildly overpriced purple stat stick with strength on it, for my hunter! Thorium ammo? Too expensive, I'll use cheap arrows, I'm only losing 16 DPS, what's the big deal?
    I dont remember if flasks were a thing in Classic, I dont think they were. I used to go around mining and herbing to then hire people to do the stuff for me, seemed cheaper that way (and what I didnt have use for I'd sell). Then there are also food buffs and random stuff like the blasted lands quest. But it also requires caring, no external addon or site involved.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    I disagree if not heavily. A hunter is immediately obvious I feel.

    You need arrows. Hunter's Mark is a debuff so you should start off with it. Serpent Sting does damage over time so you should start with that next. Arcane Shot is available more often and does good damage but is expensive so just use sparingly. None of these mechanics is particularly cryptic. If anything, the controls are clunky as hell (without a macro, your pet is basically sightseeing all the time).

    Of course this requires actually READING your damn skills at least once.
    If you are talking about hunter rotations in Classic..... yeah no. You are about as far from correct as humanly possible.

    Neither Serpent Sting nor Arcane Shot scaled with AP for a very long time, making them worthless after getting any kind of actual gear. Serpent Sting doubly so because it took one of the very limited debuff spots (if I recall correctly it was at 16 debuff slots for a raid of 40 people until Naxxramas released) and potentially knocked off FAR more damaging and useful debuffs from bosses like Sunder Armor, the fire mage crit DOT, or warlock DOTs. Using Serpent Sting in a raid in original was an invitation to getting kicked out of the raid. I literally didn't even have it on my bars at 60, it was that useless an ability.

    Arcane shot did low non-scaling damage for too much mana and a cooldown, but at least it was SOMETIMES useful because it could be fired on the move, but using it as part of an actual damage rotation was terrible.
    Last edited by Olinser; 2019-09-18 at 09:30 PM.

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  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Well, if its not off-tanking (which it should be in a 5-man) then its fine if it stays at the side. Dunno, its not like being a hunter is all that hard, and there is always feign death if you screw up (and you can freezing trap out of feign death, since it takes you out of combat, so if you pull it off quickly you can trap 2 mobs :D).



    You say 'find' like it takes more than hovering over the stat and reading the tooltip. 'mandatory reliance on external sites' makes it seem like its all some arcane mistery, when its just caring a bit and its all in-game.



    I dont remember if flasks were a thing in Classic, I dont think they were. I used to go around mining and herbing to then hire people to do the stuff for me, seemed cheaper that way (and what I didnt have use for I'd sell). Then there are also food buffs and random stuff like the blasted lands quest. But it also requires caring, no external addon or site involved.
    I'm just gonna chime in as a warrior and say that I absolutely don't want your pet trying to off tank. It's not reliable enough at all, and I don't want to have to fight your pet for aggro and healing. Plus, getting hit is a huge part of rage generation. It makes my job a lot harder for almost no benefit.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2019-09-19 at 01:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I'm just gonna chime in as a warrior and say that I absolutely don't want your pet trying to off tank. It's not reliable enough at all, and I don't want to have to fight your pet for aggro and healing. Plus, getting hit is a huge part of rage generation. It makes my job a lot harder for almost no benefit.
    Back in classic? Dunno, the boar was pretty sturdy but yes, it was mostly to catch stray adds, or things that the warrior forgot to pick up (or if he missed shield bash on a caster). Its situationally useful when used correctly, and if it dies it doesnt really matter too much, so it can buy time until CC is re-applied or they are done killing something else. Im not saying its gonna offtank every pull, but it had its uses. Its not something you really need a macro to handle or thats so complicated you need an external site to teach you.

  27. - Top - End - #147
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Back in classic? Dunno, the boar was pretty sturdy but yes, it was mostly to catch stray adds, or things that the warrior forgot to pick up (or if he missed shield bash on a caster). Its situationally useful when used correctly, and if it dies it doesnt really matter too much, so it can buy time until CC is re-applied or they are done killing something else. Im not saying its gonna offtank every pull, but it had its uses. Its not something you really need a macro to handle or thats so complicated you need an external site to teach you.
    Having your pet become a tank when things went wrong is different from being an off-tank (where the job is specifically to pick up an enemy or two in every fight). When I was playing Hunter, I always got annoyed that my pet wasn't allowed to off-tank. When I started playing a Priest, I understood why. Even if you have adds, you're better off letting the main tank pick them up if possible. If your pet is off-tanking things have really gotten out of control. It's a waste of mana for the healer to heal it, it makes the tank's job more difficult, and it's a waste of time to spend 10 seconds casting Revive Pet followed by several seconds of chugging water.

    This changed towards the end of Classic with the introduction of different pet types and the remastered Beast Mastery talent tree. I had a turtle that could (and did) act as a reliable off-tank on the occasions that I got a group that would allow it. There was one time our tank (or perhaps the healer) screwed up on the final boss of Sunken Temple and got himself killed halfway through the fight. My turtle took over and we finished him off just fine.

    In day 1 Vanilla though? Your pet was set to passive, Growl disabled, and it attacked whatever the designated "kill" target was as a pure source of DPS.

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Once a twinkoholic, always a twinkoholic.

    I rolled a hunter to enjoy the game. But the quiver occupying a bag slot, the prospect of being not wanted late game made me switch to a priest.

    There I started missing my pet and realized there are way more hybrid characters trying to heal than just priest so I get a DD spot 50/50.

    Rolled a warrior and got eaten by a mob one level above me. Soloing on a tank ia too annozing for me.

    But I am now kinda settled on a warlock. The only two annoying things are that my alts have the crafting professions where I wasted time and gold. Alas do you think with skinning/leatherworking on hunter and enchanting/tailoring on priest, the warlock should go skinning/herbalist and I retrain alchemy on my hunter?

    Or do crafting professions require a certain level? A guildie is tailor/alchemist so actual crafting is not the issue for raiding.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Spore View Post
    Rolled a warrior and got eaten by a mob one level above me. Soloing on a tank ia too annozing for me.
    Ooh, this reminds me of one of the things I loved about Classic until it got changed - with good cause. As a melee class, if you tried to attack something 5 levels above you, they would deflect most of the hits and you would die. As a spell class, the enemy would resist most of your spells.

    Hunters though? They got a free ride. Their shots weren't melee damage, so they couldn't be deflected. But they also weren't spell damage either, so they couldn't be resisted.

    This meant that if you were a good enough player, you could kite ANY enemy to death. It just took time, and being cautious enough to never let the enemy close with you. I had a lot of fun on my second Hunter taking only red quests that were at the absolute maximum level required and then completing them because Hunters were just that good at soloing content.

    I was so sad the day they fixed that.

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    Default Re: Shun the Light, It's WoW Classic Time

    Crushing Blows made healing exciting :v. Back when me and my friends levelled together, we would jump into dungeons at the min. level or slightly over it, just to check them out. It was fun, clearing things that were orange / red, despite the crap xp and not being able to use most of the loot. But some things were just too hard, like the freakin SM Armory boss who'd crit our tank to 0 without much we could do about it.

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