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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Steven Universe: the Movie

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    I hope Lars kept the spaceship. I would like to see more space adventurers with Captain Lars of the Stars.

    Might even take Sadie with him this time?


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    BUY ALL HER PLAYSETS AND TOYS!*
    *Man I really hope someone gets that reference.
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    I get it!
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Steven Universe: the Movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Anyone else find it odd that...
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    ...Onion hasn't aged at all! What manner of Lovecraftian horror is this creature?!
    He is, after all, infinite in his layers, like a cosmic parfait. To gaze upon him is to court death.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    Yeah.

    Kinda what Diamond's did.

    I don't think "Rose" would have done what Pink did, because Rose was at worst innocently selfish, but I think this is a better example of what Pink was like before learning the value of individuals--of what the Diamonds were like at their worst--than anything else.

    And she'd clearly already forgotten about Spinel entirely by the time she got her character development.
    I watched it as well, aaand it's next to impossible for me to say anything about it without getting into spoilers so here we go.

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    I'm holding onto my misgivings about Rose/Pink that I had from the series. While my opinion has softened somewhat, I wouldn't call her "innocently selfish," but more "short-sighted" and "inconsiderate."

    Going back to Pink/Rose having Pearl keep her secret and avoiding the issue of Pearl pining for her shows a certain lack of consideration for her feelings. Not to say that Rose should have reciprocated Pearl's feelings even if she didn't feel that way, though it would have been better if Rose had let her down easy.

    With that said, Pink's backstory with Spinel? Makes total sense to me given everything I know about the character. The only main point that I disagree with is that I don't think Pink did outgrow that kind of behavior when she became Rose Quartz. Her relationship with Greg may have forced her to consider humans and other Gems as people with thoughts and feelings, though that seems like a pretty late development for her. It's also not clear if Rose took that lesson to heart or if that consideration extended to people other than Greg.

    All in all, aside from some snappy dialogue and some catchy songs, I give the movie a stamp of OK. I think I was hoping for the movie to be more of a departure from the series formula. As it was, it was a fairly by the numbers Steven Universe story arc in movie form.
    Iop brain.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    *muffled shout from the back*

    I get it!
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    On Steven not liking Spinnel, I also got that vibe, that he wasn't trying as hard as he used to with, say, Peridot. And someone pointed out to me that Steven is older now, and maybe he's just not as naive and optimistic, maybe he's fed up and jaded? I always thought it was sad how cute and innocent Bubblegum Garnet is, and, as much as I love Garnet, how strong and stoic and hard she had to become because of the war and becoming the leader. Maybe the same thing is happening to Steven. The power to change, indeed.
    Last edited by Deja Who?; 2019-09-06 at 09:58 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Who? View Post
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    On Steven not liking Spinnel, I also got that vibe, that he wasn't trying as hard as he used to with, say, Peridot. And someone pointed out to me that Steven is older now, and maybe he's just not as naive and optimistic, maybe he's fed up and jaded? I always thought it was sad how cute and innocent Bubblegum Garnet is, and, as much as I love Garnet, how strong and stoic and hard she had to become because of the war and becoming the leader. Maybe the same thing is happening to Steven. The power to change, indeed.
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    That seems likely. Especially because he just had an entire morning about singing about how he no longer has to deal with this ****. He's tired and wants what is, by all rights, an earned happy ending. And then some wackadoodle crazy noodle goblin attacks his home and effectively killed his friends in a murder-suicide, and he has to deal with this bubbly brainless goofball who the only memories he has of are her malicious, and joyfully, kicking his ass.

    Of course there might be SOME disingenuous feelings about it. Peridot was, pardon my french, really ****ing bad at being an effective villain, so it's easier to like her. Spinel was more effective than the entire Gem-world army, pretty much.


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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Yes Spinnel also personally wronged Steven more than any gem ever had pretty much. There was no guarantee, for Steven, they would ever come back. Not to mention the injector. That plus him missing at least some of his childlike wonder and optimism is a sour mix.
    Last edited by Deja Who?; 2019-09-06 at 10:38 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    I just realized something...

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    Andy doesn't appear in this film.


    I take back everything nice I said about the movie. This film is garbage.

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    I want Andy to fuse with Steven now. Long life Standy!

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Steven Universe: the Movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Who? View Post
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    I also heavily relate to Spinnel for the same reasons and have similar feelings. What Rose did has got to be one of the most horrible things you can do to a sapient being. And diamond orders are for keeps- Pearl couldnít tell Steven no matter how much she tried. She had to show him. Rose never intended her to leave or she just didnít care at all. Imagine how deeply Spinnel must have broken to move.
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    The Crew confirmed a couple of times that permanent Diamond orders only work on their own Pearls; it's not a general thing that they can do to all Gems. Which kind of makes it worse - Spinel stood alone for 6000 years because she trusted Pink, not because anyone forced her to.

    I can believe that it never occurred to Pink that Spinel would take it that seriously; she probably assumed she'd just go looking for orders after a few weeks. Pink had a really bad habit of never understanding that her absence could affect other people - a sort of combination of selfishness and depression that was baked in from minute one. But at the same time... whoof, Pink.

    In terms of making friends...
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    I think we see pretty clearly that, while Steven would be okay being Spinel's friend, he's not okay being the sort of friend that she's looking for. His song with Spinel is about him saying that she'll find someone to care about the way she cared about Pink, and Spinel saying, "I think I just did" and him totally missing it. Then she has an absolute panic attack before he even gets to the point of saying bad things, just because he talks about things getting back to normal.

    I am kind of nervous about Spinel and the Diamonds, but I think maybe they'll be able to work it out. Maybe they all need a bit of a rebound before they start trying to strike off on their own - a slightly co-dependent thing that won't instantly turn sour on them.
    Last edited by Friv; 2019-09-06 at 12:10 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
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    I am kind of nervous about Spinel and the Diamonds, but I think maybe they'll be able to work it out. Maybe they all need a bit of a rebound before they start trying to strike off on their own - a slightly co-dependent thing that won't instantly turn sour on them.
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    So long as Spinel doesn't get a destabilizer or whatever the scythe was called.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Steven Universe: the Movie

    I think enough time has passed that we can go without tags.

    When the Diamonds are inviting Spinel to come live with them, it cuts to the Crystal Gems. Garnet's expression is a good-natured shake of her head and a big smile.

    So, uh... I guess she's not seeing high chances of this going wrong.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I think enough time has passed that we can go without tags.

    When the Diamonds are inviting Spinel to come live with them, it cuts to the Crystal Gems. Garnet's expression is a good-natured shake of her head and a big smile.

    So, uh... I guess she's not seeing high chances of this going wrong.
    Yeah, the Diamonds are a bit more alien in their psychology than most Gems. It might be that them and Spinel truly fit together like that four diamond symbol as a stable relationship but without any of Pinks issues in it: after all, Pink Diamonds and Stevens entire issue was that eventually, they grow up and want to do other things.

    what started this whole 6000 year long conflict? Pink wanting to be an adult and her own Diamond thus demanding a planet. she wanted to grow up faster. she perceived herself as the same as the other Diamonds and thus needed to be doing the same important things. it took her discovering Earth and how beautiful it was to realize she didn't NEED to do the same things as the other Diamonds, and the other Diamonds themselves didn't seem to have any concrete plan for HOW Pink would help them rule since they seemed to already run it to their liking well enough already, what would a fourth head do for it that more mass-produced well-organized gems wouldn't? like Steven just seemed to be a figurehead when he tried it, so I doubt that they really intended for Pink to take on any serious jobs, so even if Pink continued trying, I don't think she would ever get past being the little adored sister or daughter. its one of the problems of an immortal society: once a job is filled by someone competent enough to make it work, its filled forever. the only advancement forward would be to kill to gain the position instead, and Pink while she has her flaws didn't want to shatter any gem. she would be stuck being the figurehead princess forever.

    Spinel on the other hand despite being similar to her, actually had the opposite relationship to Pink that Pink had to the Diamonds, and indeed most of the Gems we see. While the Crystal Gems want something more than their purpose, Spinel is perfectly happy fulfilling her own to the best of her ability, and her problem is that Pink grew bored and discarded her once she was no longer of any use, seeing Spinel as a childish toy to leave behind when one needs to go do grown up things. Her breakdown wasn't from being forced into her role, but being unable to fulfill what she wants to do, which matches perfectly with what she was designed for. Indeed, Jasper had a similar mindset in that she felt she was perfectly fulfilling her role as an elite soldier and being unable to avenge the Diamond that she was made for, it might be a thing of all Gems with perfect cuts:
    basically, they have a personality that matches exactly with what they're built to do, and thus have no problems fulfilling whatever purpose they are meant to, because the shape of their brain means their innate desires = equal their innate purpose. But few Gems are perfect. Amethyst is overcooked, Pearl is "defective", Garnet is forbidden, and Pink was oddly small for a Diamond, while all the off-colors didn't seem to have any purpose at all.

    Peridot and Lapis I'm not so sure about, they didn't seem to be perfect cuts nor particularly flawed and may be examples of normal gems: not particularly feeling forced or unwanted, nor particularly outstanding in their purpose and thus fulfilling it well enough and thus why they are a little more neutral than others, through Peridot is an Era 2 Gem and thus not made with as good resources. so a lot of gem psychology may depend their cut and thus their ability at fulfilling what they are meant to do. so I doubt Spinel can be evaluated with the same lens we use to evaluate the problems of Gems who did rebel, because Spinel never truly did.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I think enough time has passed that we can go without tags.

    When the Diamonds are inviting Spinel to come live with them, it cuts to the Crystal Gems. Garnet's expression is a good-natured shake of her head and a big smile.

    So, uh... I guess she's not seeing high chances of this going wrong.
    Or maybe she does. When your new roomie is a pink clown, hijinks usually ensue. Though probably not some crazy planet-killing disaster. (I hope.)
    Iop brain.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    It's also possible that Garnet doesn't especially care about planet-killing disasters, as long as they don't involve Earth or any of the Crystal Gems.
    ....If we're talking in astronomical probabilities that make million to one chances look likely.

    and even if you think its more likely than that, Steven is likely to check up on the Diamonds from time to time to see how they're doing. therefore if he visits only to die in the vacuum of space, its on her for not warning him about Spinel being the cause of homeworld not being there anymore. No matter how little Garnet supposedly doesn't care, Steven definitely does and therefore its in her interests to make her him and his descendants don't visit planetary rubble for their own safety.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Honestly, I don't really quite understand why even the creator of the show is like, saying Spinel is toxic and a kind of bad that wasn't explored before in the series?? All I see is a being that was literally made to adore Pink Diamond, and then was abondoned for thousands of years, which obviously had a way negative impact on her sanity and that lead to a huge breakdown. I mean, it's a bit hard to call someone toxic cause of them acting irrationally after standing on the same spot for 6000 thousand years??

    Also, I dunno, I just feel that Steven Universe kinda goes through the same messages over and over, but does so with a bit of a lack of any nuance? It's a bit all over the place with how it frames certain topics, like Pearl's dedication to Rose is sorta sometimes depicted as damaging and bad but at others it's romanticized and the bad implications of it seem to be sorta ignored?

    I just think that the moral framework that the show goes by is a bit inconsistent, and not very well suited to tackle in a satisfying ways some of the dilemmas and questions they bring up
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-14 at 05:38 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    Honestly, I don't really quite understand why even the creator of the show is like, saying Spinel is toxic and a kind of bad that wasn't explored before in the series?? All I see is a being that was literally made to adore Pink Diamond, and then was abondoned for thousands of years, which obviously had a way negative impact on her sanity and that lead to a huge breakdown. I mean, it's a bit hard to call someone toxic cause of them acting irrationally after standing on the same spot for 6000 thousand years??
    It's a similar situation to Catra in the She-Ra reboot. Absolutely, she was victimized; her trauma is valid and should not be understated. That doesn't make the way that she acted in response to that trauma valid. It's important to understand how trauma can drive someone to lash out irrationally at others and have compassion for them, but neither are they absolved of all responsibility for lashing out irrationally.

    Spinel, fairly uniquely among Gem villains, pretty clearly understood from the outset that Steven was not Rose/Pink. She knew that she was punishing people she didn't even know, who didn't have any hand in what was done to her, in lieu of someone who wasn't even around for her to strike back at anymore. Justified as her anger was, her actions were still a cosmic tantrum that served no purpose but for her to feel better by the act of lashing out. (An honestly, not even that, as she herself admitted in the end that she hated what she had become, and it's likely that consciously or subconsciously, she let herself get hit by her own Rejuvenator the first time because she wanted to forget everything.) That's not OK behavior, and she needs to (as she ultimately does) acknowledge that and work to make a change and sort through her trauma in a healthier, less destructive manner.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    It's a similar situation to Catra in the She-Ra reboot. Absolutely, she was victimized; her trauma is valid and should not be understated. That doesn't make the way that she acted in response to that trauma valid. It's important to understand how trauma can drive someone to lash out irrationally at others and have compassion for them, but neither are they absolved of all responsibility for lashing out irrationally.

    Spinel, fairly uniquely among Gem villains, pretty clearly understood from the outset that Steven was not Rose/Pink. She knew that she was punishing people she didn't even know, who didn't have any hand in what was done to her, in lieu of someone who wasn't even around for her to strike back at anymore. Justified as her anger was, her actions were still a cosmic tantrum that served no purpose but for her to feel better by the act of lashing out. (An honestly, not even that, as she herself admitted in the end that she hated what she had become, and it's likely that consciously or subconsciously, she let herself get hit by her own Rejuvenator the first time because she wanted to forget everything.) That's not OK behavior, and she needs to (as she ultimately does) acknowledge that and work to make a change and sort through her trauma in a healthier, less destructive manner.
    One of the running problems in a lot of modern cartoons is that there aren't a lot of permanent consequences. Noone dies. Everything can be rebuilt. One of the biggest motivators of growth in people is doing something wrong, realizing it was wrong, and then working to not repeat your mistake, or fix your mistake. Especially when that mistake has permanent consequences you can't just fix or apologize for.

    Ultimately Spinel showed up, caused a lot of trouble for a day, and then everything went back to normal. Everyone got everything they lost back. Everything that was destroyed was rebuilt. Spinel went back to being a good person (still with issues). And Steven got an excuse not to deal with his Diamond-issues. Heck, we didn't even get any character re-designs! The end of the movie is sort of weirdly ironic, Steven discovers his greatest power is "change(self-improvement)" and that he shouldn't want for things to always stay the same....but nothing has changed and everything is just as when it started!
    Last edited by False God; 2019-09-14 at 12:43 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    I mean, it's hard to held someone accountable for something they did after being stuck in the same place for 6000 years, like she was literally driven mad by it, toxic behavior is a consistent behavior. Catra is different cause she's constantly given a choice to be a good person, while Spinel was literally built to be Pink Diamond's friend, and was then abandoned for 6000 thousand years. Like, this is a level of torture that would literally be unbearable for a normal human. And furthermore, Catra wasn't made to do anything, and she had Adora constantly trying to save her from her own choices.

    Furthermore, it just seems weird that the villain that caused some havok for a day after spending thousands of years of isolation seems to be treated as if they were in any way comparable to the diamonds, who were literal slavers and warmongerers.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    I dunno, the thing about toxicity is that its subtle. it isn't just a stupid idea or belief, its those are often obvious enough to be easily pointed out without thinking about it. but with Steven Universe, there is a bunch of ideas here that aren't really outright stated and need to be examined to really figure out the differences.

    Case One: The Toxicity Surrounding Rose Quartz
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    Lets start with how people looked at Rose Quartz before the whole other business of her being Pink Diamond. worshiped figure, seemingly all-caring mother, is dead, left her son a sword and a legacy, and such and so on. usual fantasy hero jazz, right? Except....none of its played out how you'd think. See the usual story beat for a dead hero and legacy is that their sacrifice is considered noble and heroic and that its sad that they're gone, but thats okay, the hero can take up their place despite some nervousness and soon they fill their shoes and everyone says mommy would be proud of you for succeeding and blah blah blah.
    Instead, we are shown that lot of what we thought about Rose Quartz at the beginning was a romanticized. She has her strong points: she cared for all life like no other Gem before her, she accepted and loved fusion, and she wanted freedom and companionship rather than orders and oppression. But her love until she met Greg was very universal and general "love the entire world" kind of thing, her attitude towards humans being like lovable pets was a "fair for its day" kind of thing that Greg also had to correct, and it turns out, Rose kept a lot of secrets, like where Bismuth was, her real identity, what she really thought of the Pearl/Greg/Rose love triangle, Lion, the fact that her war was basically fighting against HERSELF. if something was hard to tell to other people, she avoided the topic rather say anything outright, or lied repeatedly.
    The result is that the Crystal Gems kind of put her on a pedestal, and thus expect Steven to fill her role and somehow become the new Rose Quartz. They are burdening him with some great destiny that only has anything to do with him because of his birth, and he would be perfectly in his rights to say "screw that, I don't want anything to do with that, I am my own person." and leave the Crystal Gems to sort it out themselves. A child should not be expected to finish what their parent started, as there is no guarantee that Steven would be interested in doing so, and even if Steven is willing, it still caused a lot of doubt and anxiety as a result having to live up to somebody he never met,
    and never will. The only reason he doesn't say "screw that" is because we wouldn't have a show anymore.
    Furthermore, the Crystal Gems caught one of Rose Quartzes worst traits: keeping secrets from people, and thus from him. She probably told the Gems that humans didn't need to know about a lot of things and thus got into the habit of not telling just like her, thus Steven has go to around prompting them to open up and working to make sure they tell him things and communicate properly with him and with the humans around them rather than do things how they've always done, which is just pop out when a monster is around, beat it, bubble it then go back into their base.
    Thus Steven is born into this environment while loving is also full of secrets, expectations, urging to live up to them, a skewed view of humanity, and a messianizing someone who was imperfect- and since everyone is imperfect, messianizing somebody is never a good idea. Pearl being the biggest most obvious example, but Amethyst and Garnet have their moments. The thing is about toxicity, is that it and someone truly loving someone isn't mutually exclusive, and can go hand in hand due to what love can make someone do or behave. just because there were problems with Pearls relationship to Rose, doesn't mean her feelings are invalid or that they didn't have something valuable and true even if they could've improved upon it. Toxicity doesn't mean that the person doesn't truly love what they're being toxic about, and love doesn't mean someone GET toxic about they love, and the two can kind feed off each other.

    Case Two: The Toxicity Surrounding Pink Diamond
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    Now lets look at the Diamonds and how they're toxic about Pink. One would think its similar, with people worshiping Pink Diamond and this being bad? But no. Here is the thing: Pink Diamond isn't really worshiped. She has been unpersoned actually, her place erased from the sigil. And Jasper and One Eye don't really fight to avenge Pink Diamond because of any traits she has or anything, neither of them met her, or really cared what she was like, they just value her for her status as a Gem Princess. One-Eye tries to kill Steven for social advancement and to get her own Pearl, Jasper holds values antithetical to everything Rose/Pink stands for and thus was fighting for "My Diamond!" not a messianic figure or person she looked up to, just...the person who is supposed to obey. Identifying with solely because she was made to be in her court, nothing else. This toxicity is different, because Jasper is fighting more in service of a symbol or position than a person.
    Pearl has shades of this to, her loyalty to Rose as a person mixing with her loyalty to Pink as a Diamond and thinking of her as a Diamond that was somehow objectively better than all the rest and that she told Pearl secrets she told no one else. This was completely wrong on both accounts, since Pink's lies caused a lot of problems, and there were a bunch of things she didn't tell Pearl.

    But of course, the real toxicity comes from the Diamonds themselves. To them, she is either their bratty daughter or younger sister. lets go with daughter. Blue is the motherly one and Yellow the fatherly one. Blue of course goes completely depressed and despairing about her death and never moves on. Yellow puts on a face of stone and fist of iron and pretends to move on immediately while secretly keeping her hatred and anger for Earth bottled up until its unleashed in bursts of rage. First they're toxic towards each other: Yellow's song, "What the use of feeling, Blue?" which is all about Yellow trying to make Blue stop feeling anything so they can go back to doing their job, being completely unhelpful to actually moving on, and Blue would be perfectly within her rights to say "no screw you, I'm feeling whatever I darn well feel like, Yellow and you don't get to say how I grieve for Pink and deal with the loss." because deals with that sort of thing differently, its a very personal journey that requires understanding and support for some people, not tough love. At the same time, keeping all these Rose Quartzes bubbled up, keeping humans in a zoo and so on, really aren't healthy ways to grieve Blue, sure grieve, feel sad however much you have to, but she is keeping Gems bubbled up that could be helping their civilization and keeping humans locked up just so she can be constantly reminded of someone she lost, which doesn't seem to be helping her move on or deal with it.

    Then we get to Steven interacting with the Diamonds himself....and they seem him as just Pink Diamond but in a weird form that he has yet to shapeshift out of. Which y'know, toxic because hello? your literally acting as if one person is another person. (also transgender/deadnaming parallels.) But they don't really look UP to Pink. They see her as a child. 6000 years being nothing to them well...that means to them Pinks death is still recent in their eyes. So they are literally replacing one child with another in wake of their still recent death (to them). and hoping that the "recent" death was just like, a scare or something and things can go back to normal, complete with racist gem grandma referring to the whole thing as a "prank". so Yellow and Blue put Steven to work.....being a figurehead in a ball. because they didn't know what to do with a fourth diamond and just kind of figured that she would pick up the skills somehow, or assumed that perhaps managing a colony maybe taught how leadership works, (which to be fair, she did lead people and inspire them to be better as Rose, so technically they were riiiiiiight?) But of course, Steven ain't Pink. Now you may say, "isn't this the same as the first one? assuming that Steven is his parent just like the crystal gems?" No. the Crystal Gems never really did that, aside from one flashback episode they always clearly acknowledge that Steven is his own person separate from his mother, they just placed expectations of filling her shoes upon him that isn't reasonable to place upon him and thus kind of push him to change and be more grown up as a result.
    The Diamonds literally thought he was Pink and tried to replace her with him and hope he would somehow morph back to being Pink after some jogging of his memory or something (I guess the rejuvenator scythe explains why they would act this way since other gems memories could be brought back by reminding them of this and that.) and thus just showed him how screwed up they are.

    Thing, when Steven tries to protest against this verbally and nonviolently....well Pink feared that if she tried to do so they'd punish her for speaking out- and she was proven completely right by Blue and Yellow throwing Steven in a cell for daring to make a party more lively and fun. If nothing else, Pink knew her own family. so Steven has to be the one to confront this head on and such while his mother avoided it, but in this instance its much more understandable why Pink chose rebellion and avoiding bringing up the topic, and there is nothing wrong with leaving a toxic family to go live somewhere else where you can be happy, or fighting for the kind of happiness and freedom you want.
    White Diamond is a special brand of toxic all to herself. She doesn't care for Pink, her worship is self worship. Her rant is all about her own narcissistic view of herself about how she is the perfect diamond and all others are flawed. The only way she changes is when she finally pulls out the Pink Diamond to get Pink back...and gets pink steven instead who makes it it completely 100% unambiguous that Rose/Pink is gone for good. Her self-worship is probably what started the whole Gem culture of Diamonds being on top in the first place, either or her power cause people to see herself as godlike and it went to her head, it could've happened either way.

    Case Three: The Toxicity of Spinel
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    Finally, we have Spinel. Her relationship is different from both of the above. The Crystal Gems saw Rose as a leader and messiah, the Diamonds saw Pink as a child, Pearl saw her as a lover, but Spinel is like Steven in that she kind of sees Pink as a mother. And she acknowledges that Steven is not his mother right away, Instead she is the first person to not see Steven as valuable at all, but instead specifically targets him and the crystal gems for a simple, clear motivation: jealousy/revenge. She is jealous that others took away her friend/mother from her and left her abandoned for so long, so her entire thing is destroying everything her and Steven worked for: the relationships, the planet, everything that took her away from Spinel. so she gets the rejuvenator, wipes memories, and starts injecting toxins into the world because if Pink didn't care enough to go back for her, why should she care anything about what Pink cared about? Its one thing to be mad about someone abandoning you for so long, its entirely another to go around attacking their friends and family and everything they valued after they're gone to make sure everything they did was ruined just because you weren't apart of it.
    Worst part part of all this is, we'll never know if Rose ever intended to come back for her. I mean if what Yellow says is true, then Pink would have just as much of a time abyss perception as any other Diamond and see 6000 years as nothing. she might've assumed that the Diamonds would've found Spinel themselves so that she can be made useful elsewhere, or maybe wanted to but could never figure out how to fix the teleport pads and figured it was too risky to try, and why go back for one gem who only knew her as a selfish bratty child who'd probably hate her now? All we have are Spinels assumptions and story.
    but among that is also Spinels self-loathing. the abandonment made Spinel feel worthless and negative about herself until she assumes everyone thinks lowly of her, thus making her assume that Steven would just rejuvenate her back to being the ignorant cheerful Spinel again. He had to break the rejuvenator and keep trying to get through to her to talk her down and keep her from destroying everything- to show that he truly valued her as a person that he was willing to keep pacifisting at her until she realized that he isn't her enemy.


    Similar But Different:
    So while on the surface it seems the Crystal Gems, the Diamonds and Spinel all love the same person and their problems stem from that love.....each relationship is actually different in practice and different people need to be shown different things to move past how they have been hurt by what Rose did with her avoidant, secretive way of solving her problems. and none of these loves are invalid or fake just because there is a bunch of unhealthy toxic ways this love is expressed that need correction.

    TLDR:
    Spinel: Hey mom will you play with me?
    Pink Diamond: *Lies and runs away*
    Bismuth: hey can we using this breaking point to free our people?
    Pink Diamond: *Hides problem and stores it away*
    Other Diamonds: When will you finish stomping out that rebellion, child?
    Pink Diamond: *Lies and runs away*
    Crystal Gems: So what are going to do on Earth forever, messiah leader?
    Rose Quartz: *Dies and runs away*

    Crystal Gems: Steven, be our new messiah leader
    Steven: No I need to find the truth, and you need to move on.
    Diamonds: Pink stop being this weird form
    Steven: No, I'm not my mom, shes dead
    Spinel: Everyone hates me, you hate me, because I hate me and I'm jealous she didn't bring me along!
    Steven: No, I don't hate you, you have value, don't destroy things out of jealousy.
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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Steven Universe: the Movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgana View Post
    ...toxic behavior is a consistent behavior.
    This is true. So let's look at consistent behavior from Spinel. We have very little from before she was abandoned, but we do have the Diamond's discussion over the communicator, during which Spinel is getting in between Pink and the communicator. This act of putting herself between two people who are having a moment is repeated often after she's been hit by the rejuvenator: wrapping around Steven for "your new best friend" chants when he's worried about Sapphire and Ruby, jumping into the hay between Steven and Amethyst on the train, blocking Steven's view of Pearl during the "disobedient" song. This makes it look like she has a near-compulsive need to be the center of attention.

    To be clear, there's nothing wrong with wanting attention. It's particularly a useful trait in an entertainer, and it's something Spinel can use to motivate herself to develop new acts, games, and routines. But it becomes a problem when her desire gets in the way of other people doing the things they want and need to do. And when that desire is exacerbated by Pink abandoning her, it becomes murderous jealousy.

    I'd also like to note that most of the characters in Steven Universe demonstrate toxic behaviors from time to time. Spinel's uniqueness is that her toxicity tends to come from this desire for attention, rather than obsession(Pearl), narcissism(Garnet), insecurity(Amethyst), loneliness(Jasper), or whatever.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Steven Universe: the Movie

    Y'all do remember that these are gems not humans; that Spinel was made to be like that, made to know that her purpose was to act like that and do those things since she was created (which was probably a day before we first see the flashbacks with her and PD) which didn't give her much time to evolve past her programming when PD had comparatively probably been active and online for thousands of years at that point. And this was at a time when Pink Pearl had recently been taken for the crime of not acting like they programmed you to be, or when the common gem would just be shattered for such a crime. Obviously she has emotional depth beyond this because we see it after her trauma, but this is a being who knew their purpose and that was to make PD smile and they were told they were the best and they had a perfect cut and PD laughed and played with her and her life had meaning and then suddenly- ghosted. Turns out you weren't so good at the purpose you were given, that you know internally as soon as you pop out, and PD didn't really like you so much. But I want you guys to remember that Spinel was created to act like this. Blame the diamonds. You guys were easier on flipping Jasper.

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    Default Re: Steven Universe: the Movie

    Steven's song about Change kinda cuts to the heart of the issue: Spinel was created as a childish, kinda clingy, can't-take-anything-seriously companion for Pink Diamond, who was...basically the same, at least in the eyes of the Diamonds. She was the childish Diamond, but she so very much wanted to be that mature leader of gems. She wanted her own colony, she wanted to prove she could handle it...but it's hard to move on to bigger and better things when you've got that one friend who refuses to grow up. Pink hadn't outgrown Spinel...but she wanted to.

    I think I saw the creators have said that the series isn't over, that there's more SU coming, but...idk, the movie makes even just rewatching old stuff kinda bittersweet for me.
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    Default Re: Steven Universe: the Movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Who? View Post
    But I want you guys to remember that Spinel was created to act like this. Blame the diamonds.
    I am 100% on board with an interpretation that considers Spinel a child while her hair is in hearts. Her actions are still a problem, but her culpability is reduced, like a child who doesn't know any better.

    This interpretation naturally entails viewing the Diamonds as parent-figures who horrifically fail at their responsibility to teach Spinel to handle her emotions in healthy ways.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    I am 100% on board with an interpretation that considers Spinel a child while her hair is in hearts. Her actions are still a problem, but her culpability is reduced, like a child who doesn't know any better.

    This interpretation naturally entails viewing the Diamonds as parent-figures who horrifically fail at their responsibility to teach Spinel to handle her emotions in healthy ways.
    Well....

    that depends. How many Spinels are there? even high caste gems like Jasper or whatever aren't exactly unique, and are viewed as "A Spinel" or "A Jasper" for all we know, there are probably other spinels out there, made to be "best friends"/clowns of various other high-ranking gems. (because for some reason its always the clowns). Gem production is industrialized after all.

    So parent figures is implying too much personal involvement. Its more like they're monarchs that probably ordered some people to go out to the store and buy the most expensive high quality toy and expected Pink to like her forever, except toys are things they make in batches coming out of the earth, so they probably ordered their pearls find a kindergarten somewhere with the best possible conditions to make some spinels, who ordered the gems there to make a batch, then picked the best possible spinel with the best cut to give to their little Diamond, then delivered that Spinel to the Diamonds just....gave Pink Diamond said spinel. like a custom-ordered toy that can talk.

    now, mentally Spinel is a child, but the Diamonds being their mothers is kind of a stretch. Pink Diamond is like her mother, but the other Diamonds are like adoptive ones and only now because they realize the value of her as a person. a lot of old Gem society was impersonal relationships and various Gems being objects to other Gems, because their industrial manufactured way of making more Gems is a different psychological base to start from than a human being born, and thus leads to a different mentality about their existence from the start. so while Pink was like her mother, but other Diamonds are more responsible for not realizing that just because the people around them are manufactured like this doesn't mean they are objects just in general.
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    Default Re: Steven Universe: the Movie

    The only evidence that Spinel isn't unique is that reset Pearl knows what she's called, but since Pearl was likewise made for Pink it's possible that base knowledge of Pink's court was baked into her and that stuck even if she'd been defaulted to another person.

    The Diamonds are not at all familiar with the name Spinel, but instantly recognize Spinel as Pink's playmate when they see her despite her altered form, and in general Pink Diamond is the only gem we ever see "playing." Even the Nobles and other diamonds the closest thing to entertainment is throwing formal bals(which seems to be more a status thing) and the Diamonds watching Pink play.

    It's likily that Spinel is a unique gem created specifically for Pink and that the Diamonds just forgot her name after not seeing her for six thousand years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Well....

    that depends. How many Spinels are there? even high caste gems like Jasper or whatever aren't exactly unique, and are viewed as "A Spinel" or "A Jasper" for all we know, there are probably other spinels out there, made to be "best friends"/clowns of various other high-ranking gems. (because for some reason its always the clowns). Gem production is industrialized after all.
    My position is that the scale at which the Diamonds are producing life gives them a greater responsibility to ensure that the life they produce is emotionally healthy, not a lesser one. They don't have to do it personally, but it is their responsibility to see that it gets done. For human parents this would entail hiring nannies or getting help from friends or family; for the Diamonds it would probably take the form of some kind of "counselor" gems.

    Note that gems whose designated purpose is to manage other gems aren't unheard of. Agates do this in traditional Homeworld fashion(i.e. horribly).

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: Steven Universe: the Movie

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    My position is that the scale at which the Diamonds are producing life gives them a greater responsibility to ensure that the life they produce is emotionally healthy, not a lesser one. They don't have to do it personally, but it is their responsibility to see that it gets done. For human parents this would entail hiring nannies or getting help from friends or family; for the Diamonds it would probably take the form of some kind of "counselor" gems.

    Note that gems whose designated purpose is to manage other gems aren't unheard of. Agates do this in traditional Homeworld fashion(i.e. horribly).
    Well of course.

    Their view point at the time was ignorant of that, and no one to tell them differently so....?
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    Default Re: Steven Universe: the Movie

    I think her bad behavior comes more from being left stranded completely alone for thousands of years by someone who had literally made her to only love her. Also I'd hardly call interrupting someone during a call signs of consistent toxic behavior, otherwise every 5 year old ever woyld be toxic
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-15 at 06:01 PM.

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    *scrolling to the end of the thread without looking*

    Just saw it, finally, and loooved it!

    The fights against Spinel gave me flashbacks of Judge Doom. Toons sure are scary.

    I couldn't stop laughing after... Greven? Steveg? Universe2? ... appeared.

    And wow, the sins of the mother, indeed the story of Steven's life.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Steven Universe: the Movie

    Steg.

    The fusion of Steven and Greg is officially named Steg.

    Also, Steg and Opl's VAs are in a band together. That's why Opal.
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