The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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    Default The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    So Nale didn't give us a reason why he hated Mallack, just saying it was a pretty long grudge.

    But consider the following:
    -Mallack was researching spells that allow a vampire to overcome their weaknesses, at least their dreaded sunlight.
    -Mallack was researching spells that allow vampires to multiply multiple orders of magnitude faster than normal, a couple rounds instead of 3 days per spawn.
    -Mallack was also researching anti-undead spells with secret backdoors somehow and infiltrating them in the forces of good so that adventurers who thought themselves warded against energy drain and whatnot would suddenly lose their protections.

    Really, at this point one starts to realize that Mallack was one of the most dangerous beings in the world, somebody truly threatening all life in the world. And sure Mallack was holding back for now, but then he's an immortal vampire, he can play the long game, he may one day just decide to conquer the world. Meanwhile he would be researching even more hax spells. When you can just add secret backdoors and remove limitations and weakensses, there's no limit to what you can potentially do. And when Nale's father died, Mallack would fully inherit his empire and all its vast resources.

    Then when Mallack comes out with a new spawn-disciple in the form of vampire Durkon, Nale realized there was no more waiting. The rest of the order of the Stick would soon follow, all mighty new vampires to support Mallack (besides Belkar, but then vampire Belkar would probably be too risky).

    So Nale bravely took Mallack out, even if it mean drawing his father's wrath and revenge. A foolish father who thought it was fine to leave his empire to a vampire that's researching super spells that give the bloodsucking undead a massive edge over the living.

    Nale may've been a villain most of his existence, but in the end he bravely sacrificed himself to stop a massive threat to all the living, even at the cost of his own life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Cool, except Nale references literally none of that, and attributes it all to his persistent hatred and the fact that he knew that Malack had no intention of stoping trying to kill him (and thought Tarquin was going to let him) and so it was, in his own words, "kill or be killed".

    We may not know why Nale started hating Malack, but we do know why he acted when he did, and it was hardly to anything as noble as you're trying to play it as. But even if you were somehow correct, that would not make Nale a "true hero".
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-08-27 at 11:34 PM.
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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    The most recent arc was "kill or be killed" against a bunch of vampires and the vampire-killers seem to be considered pretty heroic.

    Besides motivation is secondary to be a hero. Actual actions count a lot louder. Somebody burning down orphanages will be a villain even if they claim to have the best of intentions like "I'm giving them an honorable end so they go to valhalla before they screw up!", while somebody saving orphans will be a hero even if they go "I just wanted them to stop crying and didn't want to need to clean their remains".
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-08-27 at 11:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    -Mallack was also researching anti-undead spells with secret backdoors somehow and infiltrating them in the forces of good so that adventurers who thought themselves warded against energy drain and whatnot would suddenly lose their protections.
    While I disagree with the whole theory, I'd like to point out that this point is juste completely false.

    Durkon is the one who started researching Mass Death Ward as part of the plan to fight Xykon.
    He discussed the matter with Malack who allowed access to his books and then help researching and put a backdoor while he gave some corrections (#750).
    Last edited by Quild; 2019-08-28 at 01:02 AM.
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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Besides motivation is secondary to be a hero.
    I take it you would vote for the Iron Sociopath without a care in the world that the guys is doing good for the love of stabbing people with knives?
    Yes, I am slightly egomaniac. Why didn't you ask?

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Besides motivation is secondary to be a hero. Actual actions count a lot louder. Somebody burning down orphanages will be a villain even if they claim to have the best of intentions like "I'm giving them an honorable end so they go to valhalla before they screw up!", while somebody saving orphans will be a hero even if they go "I just wanted them to stop crying and didn't want to need to clean their remains".
    No, they really aren't, and that second person in your scenario is not a hero. Posts like this really do make me think I was justified in putting you on my ignore list, and also make me question my decision to reply to a thread that you started.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Wait, so according to you...

    Thor is a cold-hearted monster.
    Loki is a noble soul.
    Hilgya is a master of diplomacy.

    And now to add to the list, Nale sacrificed himself for the sake of others?

    Are you intentionally trying to create upside down OotS? Because you seem deadbent on putting everything in reverse.

    But to answer the actual purpose of this thread: Nale might have done a good thing by killing Malack but both actions and intentions matter when determining someone's role. A villain can commit good deeds while still being a villain and a hero can commit acts of evil while still being a hero. We have no clear answer on how morality works but generally speaking a hero is someone whose influence on the world is primarily (but not solely) positive while also trying to be a positive influence while a villain is someone whose influence on the world is primarily (again, not solely) negative while also trying to be a negative influence (granted most villains aren't necessarily aware that what they're doing is wrong, so here negative influence usually comes down to selfish and uncaring about the needs and wants of others).

    So yes Nale did a good thing, no that doesn't make him a hero because he's been a villain for pretty much his entire screentime (including orchestrating several mass killings in Cliffport for the sake of drawing Elan to him) and his motivation for that good thing was that it happened to coincide with killing someone he thought was going to kill him.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    This theory can only be considered plausible if you... well... completely disregard Nale's character and motivations, as well as one of the recurring themes of the whole story; namely that being a hero is about doing the right thing for the right reasons. I mean:

    Almost everything Nale does in the story is motivated by spite and ego. The only objection Nale would have about the world being conquered by vampires would be that fact that he is not the one doing the conquering. He killed Malack out of both self-defense and spite, and there is absolutely nothing in the story that indicates otherwise. This is like saying that Xykon valiantly fought a war against an entire city, to give the oppressed goblins a chance for a better live. I mean, the Azure city is known for their paladins, which are extremely dangerous for the undead. That makes him even more heroic in that moment, considering the danger he put himself in.

    As for the recurring theme in the story: Roy, Vaarsuvius and Elan have had moments where they needed to re-examine their motivations. Roy realized that he needed to stop Xykon because Xykon was a threat to the entire world, not because he wanted to give a middle finger to his father. Vaarsuvius was forced to realize that his ultimate motivation (at least prior to the end of the previous arc) was to have power. This realization was the main reason he took the deal with IFCC and committed the dragon-genocide. Speaking of the previous arc, that was where Elan was forced to re-evaluate his love of stories. He realized that he needed to help save the world because it is the right thing to do, not because it would make a good story.
    Spoiler: Not to mention Redcloak... (Start of Darkness spoilers)
    Show
    Redcloak's greatest flaw is his absolute refusal to recognize his motivation. He is operating under a massive Sunk Cost Fallacy; sacrificing more and more lives for both Dark One's plan and Xykon's whims because if he didn't, all those lives he sacrificed would be for nothing. This flaw drove him to kill his brother when he tried to kill Xykon. That act doesn't become any less abhorrent when Xykon revealed that the brother's plan would not have worked.

    You can stick to your head-canon, if you like. I'm just saying that it is extremely contradictory to the story.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    You know, when I saw this thread (without seeing who started it), I thought "Oh! They're making a bunch of jokes about how Nale is REEAAALY the hero of the whoooooole thing, and then I find its serious and it robs me of jokes, which makes me sad.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    You know, when I saw this thread (without seeing who started it), I thought "Oh! They're making a bunch of jokes about how Nale is REEAAALY the hero of the whoooooole thing, and then I find its serious and it robs me of jokes, which makes me sad.
    The thread title was sufficiently out there for me to believe our resident prophetess has graced us with another dream-vision. But then I remembered she liked Jake and would have spelled his name correctly.
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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    The most recent arc was "kill or be killed" against a bunch of vampires and the vampire-killers seem to be considered pretty heroic.

    Besides motivation is secondary to be a hero. Actual actions count a lot louder. Somebody burning down orphanages will be a villain even if they claim to have the best of intentions like "I'm giving them an honorable end so they go to valhalla before they screw up!", while somebody saving orphans will be a hero even if they go "I just wanted them to stop crying and didn't want to need to clean their remains".
    That doesn't really work. If someone fires a gun into a crowd because their motivation is to kill innocent people, it doesn't make them a hero if they happened to only kill a man who was also about to go on a killing spree.

    What you're saying is the same as "The ends justify the means", in which an extreme case might be someone deciding to commit ethnic cleansing against a minority group in an over crowded country, resulting in more resources for everyone else. That the end result was a net gain doesn't negate the motivations or means.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The thread title was sufficiently out there for me to believe our resident prophetess has graced us with another dream-vision. But then I remembered she liked Jake and would have spelled his name correctly.
    And the post is so ridiculous that if it was blue it would make perfect sense. But also, who is this prophetess and where can I meet her?

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    But also, who is this prophetess and where can I meet her?
    Here, for example. It is hardly the only such thread, though.

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    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Here, for example. It is hardly the only such thread, though.

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    That would be much more fun than explaining that Nale didnít die a hero because he killed Malack.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Besides motivation is secondary to be a hero. Actual actions count a lot louder. Somebody burning down orphanages will be a villain even if they claim to have the best of intentions like "I'm giving them an honorable end so they go to valhalla before they screw up!", while somebody saving orphans will be a hero even if they go "I just wanted them to stop crying and didn't want to need to clean their remains".
    Really? Motivation does not matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    So Nale bravely took Mallack out, even if it mean drawing his father's wrath and revenge. A foolish father who thought it was fine to leave his empire to a vampire that's researching super spells that give the bloodsucking undead a massive edge over the living.

    Nale may've been a villain most of his existence, but in the end he bravely sacrificed himself to stop a massive threat to all the living, even at the cost of his own life.
    [emphasis added]
    Then why do you try to ascribe motives to Nale at all? Stake your claim on the basis of either Nale having good intentions or Nale not having good intentions and accidentally doing us all a big favor.

    And your claims make no sense at face value. Nale did not care about Tarquin's wrath at all, so much so that he was outright goading his own very dangerous father afterwards.

    Now, as to Malack himself, I agree. Potentially speaking Malack represents a long term threat to this world nearly as dire as Xykon himself. That Tarquin has made arrangements and promises with this absolute monster is a strong argument against Tarquin.

    But it counts as nothing for Nale until we have actual evidence he cared about the long term interests of this world any more than his father.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    No

    Nale didn't die a hero. Not close. Not even close to maybe be possibly a little less self-centered j**k.

    As for his reasons, 10 whatever coin you've been using say it was probably something along these lines (panel 9).
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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    -Mallack was researching spells that allow vampires to multiply multiple orders of magnitude faster than normal, a couple rounds instead of 3 days per spawn.
    And Nale knew about this -- how exactly? By reading the print compilations?

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    And Nale knew about this -- how exactly? By reading the print compilations?
    To be fair to this very wrong post, Malack raised Greg into vampirism in less than 3 days, he probably has above average knowledge of vampires and would know that Malack can raise vampires extra fast.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    That would be much more fun than explaining that Nale didnít die a hero because he killed Malack.
    Also, HPoH had Malack's staff, which contained Malack's spells; and went on to become a threat to the world like Malack could have been. And even after HPoH attacking Nale and kiling Zz'dtri, Nale was far more interested in spiting his father rather than, say, getting Laurin to dispel HPoH's protection from sunlight. Almost like Nale didn't really care if another vampire could carry on where Malack left off....

    Hel, on the other hand...If she succeeds, there will be an end to any threat vampires could pose to the world, even if she'll have to sacrifice some of her own vampires to do it; and she'll even stop future dwarves from being deprived of their normal afterlives, even though she would have gotten those future dwarves herself! In any transmogrified light that's twisted enough to cast Nale as a hero, he's eclipsed by Hel.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2019-08-29 at 10:13 PM.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post

    Hel, on the other hand...If she succeeds, there will be an end to any threat vampires could pose to the world, even if she'll have to sacrifice some of her own vampires to do it; and she'll even stop future dwarves from being deprived of their normal afterlives, even though she would have gotten those future dwarves herself! In any transmogrified light that's twisted enough to cast Nale as a hero, he's eclipsed by Hel.
    Near as I can tell the plan was for Hel's followers to plane-shift out of the world to her plane before the gods unmade the world. Durkula says outright that he'll be going to Hel, and both he and Ponchula seem to think they'll still be active and able to do evil stuff if the gods make the world goes kablooey.

    So if Hel's plan goes off without a hitch, the heavyweight vampires, the dangerous ones, they don't get sacrificed. They survive.
    Last edited by BasiliskSoldier; 2019-08-29 at 11:22 PM.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by BasiliskSoldier View Post
    Near as I can tell the plan was for Hel's followers to plane-shift out of the world to her plane before the gods unmade the world. Durkula says outright that he'll be going to Hel, and both he and Ponchula seem to think they'll still be active and able to do evil stuff if the gods make the world goes kablooey.

    So if Hel's plan goes off without a hitch, the heavyweight vampires, the dangerous ones, they don't get sacrificed. They survive.
    It is worth noticing that all mortals in the comic (including undead ones) that have expressed a plan to planeshift out if the world went down in flames are probably not aware of what happens to outsiders between worlds or how long the interim period between worlds is.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    That is true

    Considering that these vampires will be in the service of the new top god of the Northern Pantheon it wouldn't surprise me if they (or the negative energy spirits driving those bodies at least) were able to persist into the new world in some form, but it's also possible they just die in the in-between time.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    It is worth noticing that all mortals in the comic (including undead ones) that have expressed a plan to planeshift out if the world went down in flames are probably not aware of what happens to outsiders between worlds or how long the interim period between worlds is.
    They probably think it's a matter of a few decades instead of a few [unprintable rune] years.
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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by BasiliskSoldier View Post
    That is true

    Considering that these vampires will be in the service of the new top god of the Northern Pantheon it wouldn't surprise me if they (or the negative energy spirits driving those bodies at least) were able to persist into the new world in some form, but it's also possible they just die in the in-between time.
    The astral plane is timeless, so hypothetically one could live out there indefinitely. No need to eat, sleep, or age in a timeless plane.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Would be a bit strange if youíre a humanoid type and the next world is sentient snacks
    Maybe that explains fruit pie sorcerer
    Last edited by mjasghar; 2019-08-31 at 04:10 AM.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by EyethatBinds View Post
    The astral plane is timeless, so hypothetically one could live out there indefinitely. No need to eat, sleep, or age in a timeless plane.
    Yet in the OOTS-verse even the Gods start starving in the time it takes for the Snarl to calm down. So their astral plane may be sort of almost timeless, but not timeless enough for the kind of time spans you need to wait out the Snarl.

    For the record, I disagree with this theory. Nale died an idiot. If he was concerned about Mallack and his spawns taking over the world the least he could have done is kill his spawn as well. If he wanted to not die an idiot he shouldn't have gone out and yell at his father and several of Mallack's other allies who were in way better fighting trim than he was at that point and had brought a friggin army in blind rage after what he did like he was untouchable or something.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2019-08-31 at 04:37 AM.
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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    I like your creative reframing, please keep doing it!
    I want to add:
    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    So Nale didn't give us a reason why he hated Mallack, just saying it was a pretty long grudge.
    -Mallack was also researching anti-undead spells with secret backdoors somehow and infiltrating them in the forces of good so that adventurers who thought themselves warded against energy drain and whatnot would suddenly lose their protections.
    Probably was not his plan this last one, but Durkon implicitly give him the idea.

    Nale may've been a villain most of his existence, but in the end he bravely sacrificed himself to stop a massive threat to all the living, even at the cost of his own life.
    Of course trying to recruit Durkon* should still be explained. He should have not trust Malack freshly liberated spawn, but cast dispel magic as long as was under the protective potion, and end the menace permanently.
    we look forward in waiting your revenge

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Yet in the OOTS-verse even the Gods start starving in the time it takes for the Snarl to calm down. So their astral plane may be sort of almost timeless, but not timeless enough for the kind of time spans you need to wait out the Snarl.

    For the record, I disagree with this theory. Nale died an idiot. If he was concerned about Mallack and his spawns taking over the world the least he could have done is kill his spawn as well. If he wanted to not die an idiot he shouldn't have gone out and yell at his father and several of Mallack's other allies who were in way better fighting trim than he was at that point and had brought a friggin army in blind rage after what he did like he was untouchable or something.
    "Nale died an idiot." is almost sig worthy.

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    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    On the "Malack wanted to negate the defenses of Durkon's spell" bit:
    Malack made a backdoor that was nigh unpronounceable and could not realistically be known by anyone except for those he personally told it to. It's pretty clear (or at least likely) that Malack made the backdoor for his own protection, in the event that Durkon (or whoever had the spell) discovered he was a vampire, not to make an unstoppable vampire army. Well, he probably would have wanted to do that, but that's a long term plan that he was merely thinking through for the moment and wouldn't have acted on for another few decades.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
    -Squire Doodad

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RedSorcererGirl

    Join Date
    Jan 2019

    Default Re: The real reason Nale destroyed Mallack (and why he died a true hero)

    I think OP might be being sarcastic?

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