Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

[LansXero]

I hope GW gets smart before they price themselves out of the market. Their latest releases have had bs price points, and the latest box is just another example.

[Blackhawk748]

I hope GW gets smart before they price themselves out of the market. Their latest releases have had bs price points, and the latest box is just another example.

There's a reason why I'v ebeen buying my minis from other people than GW. I have 120 Orks from Warpath for my Boyz and Tankbustas and they cost like a third of GW and still look good. Same with the Buggies.

My Skitarrii (except for the Rangers I got from the SC box in 7th) are from Mutant Chronicles because I was gonna use them for a Renegade Guard Army, but changed my mind and made them Vanguard. My Kastellans are from WarmaHordes and look neat.

Nids don't have anything to sub so I have to suck it up.

So ya, I sub out of GW whenever possible because dear lord are their prices awful nowadays.

[Cheesegear]

I hope GW gets smart before they price themselves out of the market. Their latest releases have had bs price points, and the latest box is just another example.

My local manager is spewing. Blood of the Phoenix is the major release for October...A lot of people want it, sure. But nobody is willing to shell out $390 (for reference, if you're unsure about Oz pricing [don't worry, we are too], the Apocalypse Craftworld Vanguard Detachment box with all the Wraith units, and the 'Robot Box' was $280...Dark Imperium is $220, Forgebane was $265, etc.), plus another $70 for Psychic Awakening. And you can't even split the box with a friend because [Current Year] <Aeldari> is a combination of Craftworlds and Drukhari (and sometimes Harlequins), so anybody who buys the box wants both Incubi and Howling Banshees.

Which means that they already have priced themselves out of the market (at least in Oz), because people want it, they're just not willing to pay GW's prices. They are willing to pay a box cracker's prices. $150 for Howling Banshees and Jain Zar? Well, $150 for six models isn't great...But it's better than ~$400 for a heap of garbage.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, the shop I TO for sold the shelf copy of Shadowspear last weekend and looked at replacing it with Blood of the Phoenix, but a combination of no local active Eldar players and the absolutely insane price point made them take a pass; the odds that they could sell it as an impulse buy at that price are astronomically low.

[LansXero]

My local manager is spewing. Blood of the Phoenix is the major release for October...A lot of people want it, sure.

A lot of people in your meta want Banshees and a Falcon? OR, is it a combination of:
- A lot of people want new plastic models / HQs
- A lot of people would like Scourges and a Venom in a box thats as discounted as the Apocalypse detachments / other boxed sets
- A lot of people would only ever considering getting these things in a box thats as discounted as the Apocalypse detachments / other boxed sets, because their current individual prices are insane considering how garbage they are, and so is the actual box price.

And you can't even split the box with a friend because [Current Year] <Aeldari> is a combination of Craftworlds and Drukhari (and sometimes Harlequins), so anybody who buys the box wants both Incubi and Howling Banshees.

Even if you could, friends dont let friends get Hellions.

Which means that they already have priced themselves out of the market (at least in Oz), because people want it, they're just not willing to pay GW's prices. They are willing to pay a box cracker's prices. $150 for Howling Banshees and Jain Zar? Well, $150 for six models isn't great...But it's better than ~$400 for a heap of garbage.

Give it like 3 weeks and they'll be much less coming from China. This kind of half-baked moronic release only fuels the recasters fire, giving people less and less incentive to support GW as they disagree with their model as a company and the OP support doesnt exist for everyone. Worse right now, when they just overbuffed IH and lost quite a bit of goodwill from Aeldari players. I mean, an Exarch power thats 'Ignore Ironstone' for Crimson Hunters and another thats 'Snipe Ironstone bearer' for Dark Reapers isnt bad, but its far from enough.

[Wraith]

Nah, you're mistaking where I'm coming from. I don't care that they're hiking the price of new kits, not because I'm not going to buy them, not because I don't play the faction/s that are affected, but because I prefer the current system where new stuff is more expensive but old stuff stays the same price. It's a bit different for other countries who I believe have had price rises on almost everything, but here in Aus, to borrow the example below, when I started ~5-6 years ago, a Land Raider was $110 AUD. It's still $110 AUD today. I know I'm not missing out on anything by waiting [x time units] to buy an army or specific model and if the price does go up, it invariably means something has got a new kit and that's almost always a good thing.

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying. I still think it's a bit of a short-term view to take - small price hikes are accepted in pretty much any industry, but I feel that normalising the big jump between Land Raider and Repulsor is just teaching GW that people are willing to pay €80 for "a tank", so they might as well charge that for "ALL tanks".

Them squatting old marines to increase prices is a bit of a convoluted stretch, GW has traditionally not been afraid of yearly price hikes elsewhere, I see no reason why they couldn't just go back to that model if they wanted.

5 years ago I'm sure we were saying exactly the same thing about WHFB, but here we are. Relying on GW being traditional is a bit of a gamble nowadays.

See, now if someone buys that 'Raider, they're paying 70 Euro (I don't have a squiggly e button) for something that will still be redundant and definitely didn't suddenly cost more to make. I'd feel doubly ripped off with this approach.

Neither do I. Alt+0128, if ever you're asked.

In seriousness though, I don't disagree - losing ANY money on a model getting squatted and/or replaced is outrageous. If GW are in the mood to get rid of old stuff, I suppose I'd rather have a way to justify replacing an old tank for a slightly-elevated €70 rather than a VERY elevated €80. I suppose I have fallen for a logical fallacy of some kind... Or I'm just monumentally cynical - ALL of my plastic tat is eventually going to fall out of date and be worthless, so I might as well start arguing for cheaper replacements now rather than later.

They already do that, if you were fine before, what has changed?

Again possibly a fault on my part, but I don't always remember the differences being so egregious. A box of 5 Eldar Guardians are cheaper than 5 Space Marines because they're obviously smaller and made of less materials, and you can fit less Space Marines into the same sized army! Why would you pay the same?
Land Raider vs. Repulsor, though? Same size, same role, same level of detail... "because it's new" doesn't really hold up for a product that won't biodegrade in the next 500 years.

[Drasius]

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying. I still think it's a bit of a short-term view to take - small price hikes are accepted in pretty much any industry, but I feel that normalising the big jump between Land Raider and Repulsor is just teaching GW that people are willing to pay €80 for "a tank", so they might as well charge that for "ALL tanks".

Yes and no. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that I'm price immune to whatever GW is doing, but for the most part I have a well paying job, no other vices and not enough spare time, so price is a relative non-factor to me. I understand that it's different for others, but the current systems makes more sense to me, it feels fairer for a tank that was 110 at release [x] years ago to still be 110 now, but a tank released now to be [y]% more.

Not to mention that Australia gets comparatively cheaper "big" models like Land Raiders, Defilers, Wraith Knights etc compared to the obscene mark up we get on regular kits, so, again, part of it is just what we're used to I guess.

5 years ago I'm sure we were saying exactly the same thing about WHFB, but here we are. Relying on GW being traditional is a bit of a gamble nowadays.

To be fair, they squatted the old world 'cause sales were non-existant, not to increase prices (though that didn't stop them). On the other hand, a very large number of AoS kits are new and much improved in quality terms over the old kits that they replaced or were removed, so I think the price hike there has generally been justified.

Neither do I. Alt+0128, if ever you're asked.

In seriousness though, I don't disagree - losing ANY money on a model getting squatted and/or replaced is outrageous. If GW are in the mood to get rid of old stuff, I suppose I'd rather have a way to justify replacing an old tank for a slightly-elevated €70 rather than a VERY elevated €80. I suppose I have fallen for a logical fallacy of some kind... Or I'm just monumentally cynical - ALL of my plastic tat is eventually going to fall out of date and be worthless, so I might as well start arguing for cheaper replacements now rather than later.

Cheers, though I can't see me needing it any time soon (though stranger things have happened).

Depends on how you look at their games model. Do you expect to never have to upgrade your PC to play the latest games? Why is that different for 40k? If they want to keep making money, they have to keep releasing new things and eventually, some things have to fall by the way side. That's a problem 'cause of people like me who will throw their toys out of the pram if their favourite faction gets the boot, so instead, they've just released endless swarms of old stuff, to the point where we have an obscene amount of factions and it's getting ever harder to balance.

Again possibly a fault on my part, but I don't always remember the differences being so egregious. A box of 5 Eldar Guardians are cheaper than 5 Space Marines because they're obviously smaller and made of less materials, and you can fit less Space Marines into the same sized army! Why would you pay the same?
Land Raider vs. Repulsor, though? Same size, same role, same level of detail... "because it's new" doesn't really hold up for a product that won't biodegrade in the next 500 years.

There's your error. The cost of plastic has almost nothing to do with the cost of the model, it's the tooling, moulds and design costs that actually matter. The latest trend for 10 million gubbins on everything and an increasing level of detail has far more to do with the cost that the 20 cents of plastic involved in each sprue.

[bluntpencil]

Y
There's your error. The cost of plastic has almost nothing to do with the cost of the model, it's the tooling, moulds and design costs that actually matter. The latest trend for 10 million gubbins on everything and an increasing level of detail has far more to do with the cost that the 20 cents of plastic involved in each sprue.

Of course, designing is much easier now, seeing as it can be done on a computer, and bits changed out from the base with CAD much easier.

[Cheesegear]

Is there a pair of Successor Tactics that go well with +1 Damage vs. Vehicles with Heavy weapons?

...And do I call them Mad Cats or Timber Wolves?

[bluntpencil]

Is there a pair of Successor Tactics that go well with +1 Damage vs. Vehicles with Heavy weapons?

...And do I call them Mad Cats or Timber Wolves?

Master Artisans plus anything else.

Salamanders/Master Artisans on Las Fusil Eliminators is fantastic.

[Wraith]

There's your error. The cost of plastic has almost nothing to do with the cost of the model, it's the tooling, moulds and design costs that actually matter. The latest trend for 10 million gubbins on everything and an increasing level of detail has far more to do with the cost that the 20 cents of plastic involved in each sprue.

My error there was not being clear that I was being sarcastic - the italicised obviously usually works, but that's my bad, sorry!

I was otherwise broadly agreeing with you that I don't really know why I was expecting that, other than superficial appearance and some presumptions. I guess that's really what I was trying to say - deep inside I know what I consider to be "fair", as vague and unquantifiable as that might be, and in recent years GW are becoming increasingly "unfair". It's an emotional response to a poorly explained and badly understood situation - I may not know much about art economics, but I know what I like.

Which, I suppose, ties into this:

Depends on how you look at their games model. Do you expect to never have to upgrade your PC to play the latest games? Why is that different for 40k? If they want to keep making money, they have to keep releasing new things and eventually, some things have to fall by the way side. That's a problem 'cause of people like me who will throw their toys out of the pram if their favourite faction gets the boot, so instead, they've just released endless swarms of old stuff, to the point where we have an obscene amount of factions and it's getting ever harder to balance.

It's not so much that things are squatted which bothers me, on reflection. I've worked in retail, I know how repeat business works and all the rest - there's no point getting mad about 'change'.

What I specifically object to is just how bad GW are at communicating it. Like quite a lot people, I think that I found out that Tomb Kings were being discontinued when someone pointed out to me that everything had been stripped from the website without any sort of public announcement. Was that because they were being remade? Problems with the mould? New launch coming up soon?

Next thing we knew; new edition! TK's are gone forever! The only way you get to use them is to fundamentally change everything that you like about them apart from the models. Have fun.

I haven't seen anything from GW since that suggests they would do it a different way now. Their release schedule is horrible and their advertising a joke - if they ever did decide to end the run of a faction, we wouldn't know about it until a couple of years after when people started asking, "Huh, there goes Tyranids 11th edition to replace the old 10th... Did anyone else notice that we never got GSC 9th edition?"

Just... c'mon guys? I played Black Templars and (later) Daemon Hunters ever since 3rd/4th edition. I haven't "lost" an army per say, but it causes a horrible sinking feeling when you wake up to realise that one of your books has been gutted and split into ~3 others and another has been relegated to "it's not in their Chapter-specific book like all the others, *maybe* another supplement next year" ranking.

[Drasius]

Of course, designing is much easier now, seeing as it can be done on a computer, and bits changed out from the base with CAD much easier.

True, but the cost of wages has gone up significantly too, and the consumre tends to demand a higher quality product, so that side is a bit of a wash I think.

Is there a pair of Successor Tactics that go well with +1 Damage vs. Vehicles with Heavy weapons?

...And do I call them Mad Cats or Timber Wolves?

Depends if you are glorious honourable trueborn clansmen or filthy stravag freebith IS scum.

Timberwolf is the original name, but if you want be really hipster, the prototype was called the Woodsman.

I'm 90% sure I will be having my Knight's House crest as House Steiner's mailed fist if that sways your descision at all.

For the chapter tactics, well:
- Bolter Fusilade is a thing if you're spamming heavy bolters and is thematically appropriate for a IF successor
- Long Range Marksmen is good for either getting that little bit extra out of short range heavies like grav cannons / multi-meltas / assault cannons, but also for shenanigans when your opponent thinks they're safe at 49" away from a lascannon team. Can also let Heavy flamers do the thing out of a pod/DS (also regular flamers, but you were specifically asking about heavy weapons), but IIRC, they're pretty limited unless you're spamming dreads, in which, whay aren't you playing IH?
- Master Artisans never hurt, 'cause rr's are pretty great
- Stealthy is never going to hurt if you're gunlining, but your boards probably have enough cover to make this a bit redundant

Technically Warded could help, but it's pretty situational.

I'd probably go Master Artisans and Bolter Fusilade, but it's going to heavily depend on the rest of your list, what are you thinking of taking?

[9mm]

Depends if you are glorious honourable trueborn clansmen or filthy stravag freebith IS scum.

Timberwolf is the original name, but if you want be really hipster, the prototype was called the Woodsman.

I'm 90% sure I will be having my Knight's House crest as House Steiner's mailed fist if that sways your descision at all.

I prefer the Rakshasa.

still have half a mind to use the Rasalhague serpent for my knights or maybe the Tariuan bull...

edit: Salamander previews/

[Avaris]

Iron Hands (http://bit.ly/33CcPWu) and Raven Guard (http://bit.ly/35IqZat) FAQ are out, including what looks like a lot of functional changes to IH

[Forum Explorer]

Worse right now, when they just overbuffed IH and lost quite a bit of goodwill from Aeldari players. I mean, an Exarch power thats 'Ignore Ironstone' for Crimson Hunters and another thats 'Snipe Ironstone bearer' for Dark Reapers isnt bad, but its far from enough.

Wait what? Why would overbuffing cause Aeldari players to lose goodwill? I mean, more than anyone else. I mean the buffs for Aeldari are quite good, so if anything the Aeldari should be the least butthurt about it.

[Meatgrinder]

Is there a pair of Successor Tactics that go well with +1 Damage vs. Vehicles with Heavy weapons?

...And do I call them Mad Cats or Timber Wolves?

Stealthy + Master Artisans. What's more fluffy than a Fists force always being in cover?

[LansXero]

Wait what? Why would overbuffing cause Aeldari players to lose goodwill? I mean, more than anyone else. I mean the buffs for Aeldari are quite good, so if anything the Aeldari should be the least butthurt about it.

Why? Our Codex is now the oldest in the range; whatever good we have is old news at this point, has been a known quantity for forever and if people cant deal with it after 2 years thats actually on them. At the opening of the biggest PSYCHIC EVENT with all the accompanying hype, the most psychic faction gets... a hugely overpriced box filled with garbage, featuring Melee non-bike, non-wraith Craftworlds and Hellions. Sure, we got a supplement as well, but compare that to Marines 2 which shunted them from 'sold on ebay by lots' to '7/8 top positions at last GT' and you can bet the supplement wont have anywhere near the same impact. Worse, it pretty much confirms no Codex: Craftworlds 2, and no more Vigilus-like formations, or anything else to vary gameplay away from the usual Plane spam that not everyone loves.

Finally, IH planes have all the durability and support our planes lack. For all the casual crying and whining about 'OP Alaitoc' most Airwings sub in a Drukhari trio, because the extra -1 to be hit isnt all that important. Worse when more and more factions keep getting +to hit out of their assess or falt out 'ignore all modifiers'.

Edit: The FAQ confirms that IH Dreads under Ironstone + Strat only ever take 2 damage at most. Which then has a 6+ FNP just in case, and tons of ways to gain back. Time to spam them full of shurikens, I guess? X__X

[Forum Explorer]

Why? Our Codex is now the oldest in the range; whatever good we have is old news at this point, has been a known quantity for forever and if people cant deal with it after 2 years thats actually on them. At the opening of the biggest PSYCHIC EVENT with all the accompanying hype, the most psychic faction gets... a hugely overpriced box filled with garbage, featuring Melee non-bike, non-wraith Craftworlds and Hellions. Sure, we got a supplement as well, but compare that to Marines 2 which shunted them from 'sold on ebay by lots' to '7/8 top positions at last GT' and you can bet the supplement wont have anywhere near the same impact. Worse, it pretty much confirms no Codex: Craftworlds 2, and no more Vigilus-like formations, or anything else to vary gameplay away from the usual Plane spam that not everyone loves.

Finally, IH planes have all the durability and support our planes lack. For all the casual crying and whining about 'OP Alaitoc' most Airwings sub in a Drukhari trio, because the extra -1 to be hit isnt all that important. Worse when more and more factions keep getting +to hit out of their assess or falt out 'ignore all modifiers'.

Edit: The FAQ confirms that IH Dreads under Ironstone + Strat only ever take 2 damage at most. Which then has a 6+ FNP just in case, and tons of ways to gain back. Time to spam them full of shurikens, I guess? X__X

I think Imperial Guard, and Death Guard are still both older.

The box is pretty meh. Honestly, I'd say it's at least better as a start collecting box then the current Eldar one, but that more speaks to how bad I consider the current start collecting box then saying anything good about the new box. Of course, the absolutely retarded price point cancels that out anyways.

But the supplement itself? That's got some cool stuff in it. The Seer Council just got a very nice spell added to them, and the aspect warriors got some really good traits. I mean, yes I will trade my 4++ on my Dire Avenger Exarch for AP-1 on my whole squad. Or the +1 to hit and wound when I take a casualty. I'm not sure which is better. Or giving my Shining Spears the ability to fall back and charge. Or the Fire Dragons getting to use their meltas as pistols. Nearly every Aspect got a cool secondary trait that I want to use.

And we still haven't seen all of it. There's still some more psychic powers that remain unknown.

Oh, and the Dark Eldar stuff is fantastic. There is so much cool stuff in there.

Yeah, they didn't get as much of a buff as the Iron Hands did. That's a good thing. Iron Hands became so OP they've received a nerf almost immediately. It seems likely that they'll receive more nerfs in the future. GW overshot big time with Iron Hands and now comes the process of dialing them back. It's alright to be upset that they overshot at all, but I wouldn't be complaining that they didn't overshoot with the Aeldari stuff.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

As a Necron player, Aeldari players complaining about only receiving two updated characters, two updated units, and a whole slew of new rules makes me roll my eyes.

You're not the top-of-the-top, and your codex may be fairly old, but it's still good, and you're still getting SOME attention. All we got since 8th began was one updated model with our joke of a codex. We have to build a competitive list just to have a chance in CASUAL games.

[LansXero]

As a Necron player, Aeldari players complaining about only receiving two updated characters, two updated units, and a whole slew of new rules makes me roll my eyes.

You're not the top-of-the-top, and your codex may be fairly old, but it's still good, and you're still getting SOME attention. All we got since 8th began was one updated model with our joke of a codex. We have to build a competitive list just to have a chance in CASUAL games.

So you'd pay 115$ for a box with 2 of your worst vehicles, a 10-man squad of your worst melee infantry (but in plastic!) and a plastic HQ that buffs them and only them? Just so feel like GW is listening? No, of course you wouldnt, you'd be as pissed as Aeldari players are, because it would still be a worthless release. On top of that, imagine it happening right at the start of a new event focused on your factions' supposed strength (I dont know, resurrection protocols?) and then this new and shiny box doesnt even have models that use said strength.

Not that I disagree with Necrons needing help, but my original point was about GW stupidly pricing new things, which will be worse for the struggling factions when they do get new models. 40$ for an HQ is bull****, but Im sure Jain Zar / Drazhar will be around that price when they come out as separated models. Meanwhile, even with the new powers, currently Craftworlds seems like it'll be "Planes: The Faction". The Crimson Hunter powers are awesome, Dire Avengers are troops of which you needed for a batallion anyways, and the new traits dont edge out Alaitoc hard enough because of how build-around-me they are (except maybe for the aforementioned 1-off batallion) Our LoW is still unplayable, the Avatar is still a joke and non-Eldrad named HQs are still not worth putting on the table; once Legends becomes a thing we also lose all wargear on our martial HQ choice so that sucks as well, and the new psychic discipline is a huge pile of meh except for 1 power, and thats only good for melee builds.

[Forum Explorer]

So you'd pay 115$ for a box with 2 of your worst vehicles, a 10-man squad of your worst melee infantry (but in plastic!) and a plastic HQ that buffs them and only them? Just so feel like GW is listening? No, of course you wouldnt, you'd be as pissed as Aeldari players are, because it would still be a worthless release. On top of that, imagine it happening right at the start of a new event focused on your factions' supposed strength (I dont know, resurrection protocols?) and then this new and shiny box doesnt even have models that use said strength.

Not that I disagree with Necrons needing help, but my original point was about GW stupidly pricing new things, which will be worse for the struggling factions when they do get new models. 40$ for an HQ is bull****, but Im sure Jain Zar / Drazhar will be around that price when they come out as separated models. Meanwhile, even with the new powers, currently Craftworlds seems like it'll be "Planes: The Faction". The Crimson Hunter powers are awesome, Dire Avengers are troops of which you needed for a batallion anyways, and the new traits dont edge out Alaitoc hard enough because of how build-around-me they are (except maybe for the aforementioned 1-off batallion) Our LoW is still unplayable, the Avatar is still a joke and non-Eldrad named HQs are still not worth putting on the table; once Legends becomes a thing we also lose all wargear on our martial HQ choice so that sucks as well, and the new psychic discipline is a huge pile of meh except for 1 power, and thats only good for melee builds.

The contents of the box really aren't bad. The only thing that is actively awful is the Hellions.

I mean, let's run it down:

1 Falcon: Honestly, I find some use in them, but more importantly it is super easy to convert a Falcon to a Wave Serpent.

1 Vyper: They are a solid unit. 60 Points for 6 S6 shots with a rend is a pretty good option. They are a go to choice for filling out Brigades or just filling out a list that has some points to spare.

1 Jain Zhar: She just got some buffs so I'm not sure where she falls these days. There's rumors of a change in points as well. She does have an incredible anti-horde ability though, so she's at least better than she used to be.

5 Banshees: I'd actually peg them as the third best Eldar Melee unit, with the first two being Shining Spears and an Autach with the Nova Lance. They don't have a lot of damage potential, true enough. But they are incredibly quick, and ignore overwatch, so they make for a superb tie up unit. Or even just negating overwatch which is so crucial with things like the Space Marine Baby Carriages coming out in force.

And then the Dark Eldar stuff

1 Venom: You can never have enough Venoms.

5 Incubi: We'll see where they fall, but they just received some substantial buffs, so I'm optimistic.

1 Drazahar: Who apparently went down in points as well as getting some massive buffs. He's pretty good now.

5 Scourges: Who are one of the best anti-tank choices for Dark Eldar.

5 Hellions: Who are complete and total trash. They at least look cool though


And hey, you can actually ally both sides together. So you actually get value out of both halves of the box if you can't split it.

Pricing is weird for GW these days since every country seems to be doing it's own thing. For example, the value of the just the Eldar stuff comes out to 205$ in Canada while the Blood of the Phoenix set is 280$. So it is a pretty good deal since that means you are getting all of the Dark Eldar stuff for about 75$. Or you are splitting with someone and getting 205$ worth of stuff for 140$ (assuming you get the book to be fair).

Seriously, Craftworlds is in a great spot right now. I can run a wide variety of lists to hit multiple levels of competitiveness, and that includes the highest levels of tournament play. And despite not really needing a buff (seriously, there's usually at least one Eldar list in the top 10 of every tournament since 8th began), we got one anyways. And it went on units that actually sort of need it. IE, the Aspect Warriors not named Dark Reapers or Shining Spears. Though they got a buff as well, so hey.

[LansXero]

The contents of the box really aren't bad. The only thing that is actively awful is the Hellions.

I mean, let's run it down:

1 Falcon: Honestly, I find some use in them, but more importantly it is super easy to convert a Falcon to a Wave Serpent.

1 Wave Serpent, which doesnt really do much on its own, but a fair point, except 'easily convertible' always begs 'why not put the good one in there instead'. The answer being, of course, Craftworlds already sells well enough, enjoy having discounts on second rate stuff and pay a premium for the stuff you actually want. Meanwhile, we'll rain Leman Russes over Guard Players in their SC and Apocalypse boxes.

1 Vyper: They are a solid unit. 60 Points for 6 S6 shots with a rend is a pretty good option. They are a go to choice for filling out Brigades or just filling out a list that has some points to spare.

Thats a Weapons Platform worth of firepower and I'd rather play musical wounds with a Guardian squad than shell out for a Vyper. 1 Vyper wont fill out a brigade, and they dont sinergize with our other FA options. Warp Spiders camping ruins doing mortal wounds when they get charged now are lulzy though.

1 Jain Zhar: She just got some buffs so I'm not sure where she falls these days. There's rumors of a change in points as well. She does have an incredible anti-horde ability though, so she's at least better than she used to be.

She is still a melee model that cant fly nor ignore terrain / models. Sure, she can charge from a mile away... to then get stuck into screens (2" doesnt have as many models as you think) and then either get shot to pieces afterwards or have things ignore her because they are T8 and can fly / fall back and shoot.

5 Banshees: I'd actually peg them as the third best Eldar Melee unit, with the first two being Shining Spears and an Autach with the Nova Lance. They don't have a lot of damage potential, true enough. But they are incredibly quick, and ignore overwatch, so they make for a superb tie up unit. Or even just negating overwatch which is so crucial with things like the Space Marine Baby Carriages coming out in force.

That you disregard Wraithblades as being below Banshees hurts me :'( Banshees are as easy as guardsmen to shoot out of the table, cant kill anything worthwhile and are also melee units that arent tanky (wraiths) nor fly (autarch, council, shining spears). They might be good to buy you a no-overwatch charge for better units, but then, if the unit is behind any sort of obstacles the banshees fell behind and will die next turn.

And then the Dark Eldar stuff

1 Venom: You can never have enough Venoms.

230$ just to add one feels excessive. Might as well get an old SC! Box at clearance.

5 Incubi: We'll see where they fall, but they just received some substantial buffs, so I'm optimistic.

1 Drazahar: Who apparently went down in points as well as getting some massive buffs. He's pretty good now.

IF they are still mercenaries, they dont fall anywhere, as they wont get any of the new traits. Besides, they still have the same issue all melee infantry have, of getting places so they can be relevant.

5 Scourges: Who are one of the best anti-tank choices for Dark Eldar.

So they're Talos and Ravagers now? But yeah, Scourges and the Venom are the highlights of the box.

5 Hellions: Who are complete and total trash. They at least look cool though

True.


Thats why I think a Codex Craftworlds 2.0 would've been better: it would've been a bigger shake up, with changes that bring the box models up to par with the rest of the army, thus making them a valid choice instead of the insta-dismiss for something better they currently are.

And hey, you can actually ally both sides together. So you actually get value out of both halves of the box if you can't split it.

Why would I ever? I mean... I dont see how they all fit on any sort of coherent build you might wanna use. 2 duelist models that both buff only their own kind of unit and have to either get transport support or hoof it across the table, backed by... vypers with no AP? I guess scourges as anti tank so they can get shot T1? and of course, Hellions to convince people this was all an elaborate prank and save face.

Pricing is weird for GW these days since every country seems to be doing it's own thing. For example, the value of the just the Eldar stuff comes out to 205$ in Canada while the Blood of the Phoenix set is 280$. So it is a pretty good deal since that means you are getting all of the Dark Eldar stuff for about 75$. Or you are splitting with someone and getting 205$ worth of stuff for 140$ (assuming you get the book to be fair).

If it were selling at that assumed price, it wouldnt be in this box (most likely). In years of having a store, nobody has ever asked for any of the Asuryani models in the box set, not even from recasters. So make of that what you will.

Seriously, Craftworlds is in a great spot right now. I can run a wide variety of lists to hit multiple levels of competitiveness, and that includes the highest levels of tournament play. And despite not really needing a buff (seriously, there's usually at least one Eldar list in the top 10 of every tournament since 8th began), we got one anyways. And it went on units that actually sort of need it. IE, the Aspect Warriors not named Dark Reapers or Shining Spears. Though they got a buff as well, so hey.

Yes but only 1 :'(. I know, I know, the army is good competitively but its all Plane Spam variants. And while the allies and the codex provide some variation, if this continues when Alaitoc / Planes inevitably become nerfed, the faction becomes expensive Guard. Which is sort of sad.

Crimson Hunters being aspect warriors is great though :D

[Forum Explorer]

1 Wave Serpent, which doesnt really do much on its own, but a fair point, except 'easily convertible' always begs 'why not put the good one in there instead'. The answer being, of course, Craftworlds already sells well enough, enjoy having discounts on second rate stuff and pay a premium for the stuff you actually want. Meanwhile, we'll rain Leman Russes over Guard Players in their SC and Apocalypse boxes.



Thats a Weapons Platform worth of firepower and I'd rather play musical wounds with a Guardian squad than shell out for a Vyper. 1 Vyper wont fill out a brigade, and they dont sinergize with our other FA options. Warp Spiders camping ruins doing mortal wounds when they get charged now are lulzy though.



She is still a melee model that cant fly nor ignore terrain / models. Sure, she can charge from a mile away... to then get stuck into screens (2" doesnt have as many models as you think) and then either get shot to pieces afterwards or have things ignore her because they are T8 and can fly / fall back and shoot.



That you disregard Wraithblades as being below Banshees hurts me :'( Banshees are as easy as guardsmen to shoot out of the table, cant kill anything worthwhile and are also melee units that arent tanky (wraiths) nor fly (autarch, council, shining spears). They might be good to buy you a no-overwatch charge for better units, but then, if the unit is behind any sort of obstacles the banshees fell behind and will die next turn.



230$ just to add one feels excessive. Might as well get an old SC! Box at clearance.



IF they are still mercenaries, they dont fall anywhere, as they wont get any of the new traits. Besides, they still have the same issue all melee infantry have, of getting places so they can be relevant.



So they're Talos and Ravagers now? But yeah, Scourges and the Venom are the highlights of the box.



True.


Thats why I think a Codex Craftworlds 2.0 would've been better: it would've been a bigger shake up, with changes that bring the box models up to par with the rest of the army, thus making them a valid choice instead of the insta-dismiss for something better they currently are.




Why would I ever? I mean... I dont see how they all fit on any sort of coherent build you might wanna use. 2 duelist models that both buff only their own kind of unit and have to either get transport support or hoof it across the table, backed by... vypers with no AP? I guess scourges as anti tank so they can get shot T1? and of course, Hellions to convince people this was all an elaborate prank and save face.



If it were selling at that assumed price, it wouldnt be in this box (most likely). In years of having a store, nobody has ever asked for any of the Asuryani models in the box set, not even from recasters. So make of that what you will.



Yes but only 1 :'(. I know, I know, the army is good competitively but its all Plane Spam variants. And while the allies and the codex provide some variation, if this continues when Alaitoc / Planes inevitably become nerfed, the faction becomes expensive Guard. Which is sort of sad.

Crimson Hunters being aspect warriors is great though :D

If I was running GW, I'd just combine the kits and let you get a Wave Serpent or a Falcon out of the same box.


Now that's not worth it. The musical chairs on Guardians seems like such a waste. The only gun worth taking is a Shuriken Cannon, which you are paying an extra 50% for, just to put it in the Guardian unit. And then putting wounds on it to save a Guardian? No thank you. If I'm trying to keep my Guardians alive, I'm using Celestial Shield with maybe Conceal or Protect. Otherwise, I'm not giving them anything.

What do you mean by the Vyper not synergizing with the other Fast Attack choices? It does the same thing as Jetbikes, and just provides some decent shots for any army composition. But for brigades (or outriders), it usually goes like this; 2 units of Shining Spears (one for Quicken, one for the Stratagem), and 1 Vyper to fill the last spot.

It'll come down to cost. If she's doing the same thing as a Banshee unit then she'll be worth it since she's a lot more durable than a Banshee unit. But if she's too expensive, then that goes out the window. Honestly though, I find a single model has some pretty decent success in slipping through gaps in the enemy lines. It's impossible against some armies (namely hordes), but it works well against Death Guard, and these days, Iron Hands.

I rate Wraithblades as below Banshees because Wraithblades are so slow and expensive. Wraithblades are almost three times expensive as Banshees are, and then they almost need a Wave Serpent to be effective. You can have them Webway in, but they don't have any built in rerolls to their charge, so they need support to deal with that as well. And once they lose their transport and have to walk it takes them forever to get anywhere. A squad of 5 Banshees is around 75 points and they need almost no support to be effective.


I actually can't remember what the base buff Incubi got were. Did they get +1 damage to their weapons maybe? It was something I think. It might just be the +1 to wound if Drazhar is around. Drazhar doesn't need any of the traits, he actually can do his job without them.


I'd rate Scourges as above Talos for anti-tank, but below Ravengers (particularly with the new trait for Ravangers. +1 to wound models with 10 or more wounds is going to be so nice) But being able to drop in and unload 4 Blasters, or 4D3 Haywire shots is pretty good at laying some hurt down on a tank. Talos don't have the accuracy, speed, or range to be really good at killing tanks. They are however, durable as all hell, and are pretty scary in close combat, so they do a lot more than just kill tanks.



I don't mean using everything from the box thrown together. You can't really build a complete list with what's in the box. But a patrol of Dark Eldar with Drazhar, a Venom and 5 Scourges would fit lots of armies.

If it were selling at that assumed price, it wouldnt be in this box (most likely). In years of having a store, nobody has ever asked for any of the Asuryani models in the box set, not even from recasters. So make of that what you will.

I legitimately don't understand what you are saying here. Can you rephrase it?


It's currently just Plane Spam variants. The meta has been shifting a lot and Eldar armies have been able to always have something that is competitive. And that's something that very few other factions have been able to claim.

[Blackhawk748]

As a Necron player, Aeldari players complaining about only receiving two updated characters, two updated units, and a whole slew of new rules makes me roll my eyes.

You're not the top-of-the-top, and your codex may be fairly old, but it's still good, and you're still getting SOME attention. All we got since 8th began was one updated model with our joke of a codex. We have to build a competitive list just to have a chance in CASUAL games.

My Ad Mech feels you. Yes, we're in a better position but we didn't get all that much more attention, except the stupid boat. And I'd rather they had spent more time working on that awful model.

Seriously though, Necrons need some love.

[LansXero]

I legitimately don't understand what you are saying here. Can you rephrase it?

I own a hobby store. In the time we've had Warhammer 40k (we started when 8th released), nobody, not even once, has ever asked about or bought Banshees, Jain Zar, or a Falcon, be it through us, as special order from GW's website, or on the community-orders they place with chinese recasters. Not once. They did get Vipers once though, I think back when Shining Spears costed less, and then never again since.

This also applies to Hellions, Incubi and Drazhar btw; we've sold some Scourges and obviously Venoms.

As for the musical wounds with Guardian Squads, its because of AP. A Weapon Platform under protect in cover has a 1+ save, so you can tank AP1 weapons on a 2+, so you dont die to heavy bolter / knight small weapons and dont need to burn Celestial Shield too quickly. You even save AP2 weapons on 3s, which is the same as Celestial Shield, so while you still have those 4 ablative wounds around you can save on the CP and make your opponent waste firepower on Guardians, which is the goal; its not to save the Guardians, its to make them so annoying to remove that you bait Gattling Cannon shots into them or they get outright ignored so they can camp objectives or rain shurikens on someone's face.

[Squark]

Does anyone subscribe to white dwarf? I'm curious wether or not the space marine kill team update included the change to auto bolt rifles and stalker bolt rifles, or if all intercessors got was Thunder Hammers, Power fists, and hand flamers for the sergeant. For that matter, are hand flamers d6 now?

[Cheesegear]

I'm curious wether or not the space marine kill team update included the change to auto bolt rifles and stalker bolt rifles

No.

or if all intercessors got was Thunder Hammers, Power fists, and hand flamers for the sergeant.

Affirmative.

For that matter, are hand flamers d6 now?

No.

[Forum Explorer]

I own a hobby store. In the time we've had Warhammer 40k (we started when 8th released), nobody, not even once, has ever asked about or bought Banshees, Jain Zar, or a Falcon, be it through us, as special order from GW's website, or on the community-orders they place with chinese recasters. Not once. They did get Vipers once though, I think back when Shining Spears costed less, and then never again since.

This also applies to Hellions, Incubi and Drazhar btw; we've sold some Scourges and obviously Venoms.

As for the musical wounds with Guardian Squads, its because of AP. A Weapon Platform under protect in cover has a 1+ save, so you can tank AP1 weapons on a 2+, so you dont die to heavy bolter / knight small weapons and dont need to burn Celestial Shield too quickly. You even save AP2 weapons on 3s, which is the same as Celestial Shield, so while you still have those 4 ablative wounds around you can save on the CP and make your opponent waste firepower on Guardians, which is the goal; its not to save the Guardians, its to make them so annoying to remove that you bait Gattling Cannon shots into them or they get outright ignored so they can camp objectives or rain shurikens on someone's face.

I see. How many people play Eldar or Dark Eldar in your area? From what I can remember, you are the main Eldar player in your meta, or at least that's the impression I got.


Guardians in cover are usually useless except for capping objectives. And in that case, 5 Dire Avengers are doing the same job, except the entire squad has a 2+ save under those same conditions. For less points and more potential to actually be in range. But really, it comes down to point cost for me. You are spending 15 points per squad to make them slightly more difficult to kill. And much like taking a Terminator in Deathwatch units, that extra durability doesn't really matter that much because rolling a couple of ones is pretty easy to do.

For that matter, you are casting Protect on a squad of Guardians, which is a rarity. Typically I save that for important units, now just a troop choice being an nuisance.

[Cheesegear]

including what looks like a lot of functional changes to IH

Then you must not know what you're looking at.

The only change was to The Ironstone, which, as has been proven, is not required to win games. If you want to remove Dreadnoughts from the meta, then yes. Nerfing The Ironstone has done that. Repulsors and Stormhawks still OP. Vicky Warsuits are still strong.

Iron Hands are a Mobile. Gunline. They have no negatives from moving, and they have superior firepower. Changing that, would be changing function.

In related news;
Yesterday the Iron Hands player (pre-nerfed Ironstone and everything), lost to Custodes Jetbikes with an AdMech Spearhead of Robots. So...That happened. "What are some of the hardest-to-kill units in the game, that hit like trucks? Custodes Jetbikes and Robots. Let's go."

[LansXero]

[QUOTE=Forum Explorer;24210014]I see. How many people play Eldar or Dark Eldar in your area? From what I can remember, you are the main Eldar player in your meta, or at least that's the impression I got.

There are a few old'uns who play craftworlds, a couple of semi-active drukhari players but yeah Im the most active eldar player. Plenty play or have mixes of drukhari, eldar and harlequins, although mostly scat bikes and wraith stuff from way back then

Guardians in cover are usually useless except for capping objectives. And in that case, 5 Dire Avengers are doing the same job, except the entire squad has a 2+ save under those same conditions. For less points and more potential to actually be in range. But really, it comes down to point cost for me. You are spending 15 points per squad to make them slightly more difficult to kill. And much like taking a Terminator in Deathwatch units, that extra durability doesn't really matter that much because rolling a couple of ones is pretty easy to do.

For that matter, you are casting Protect on a squad of Guardians, which is a rarity. Typically I save that for important units, now just a troop choice being an nuisance

.

5 Dire Avengers die faster to a couple of smites, so its not a fair comparison.

Usually my lists will look something like this:

Ulthwe
Eldrad
Autarch on bike w/phoenix gem and either the sniper trait or the re-roll trait plus banshee mask and reaper launcher
Warlock

Guardians 20+2 platforms
Rangers
Rangers

Alaitoc
Warlock
Warlock

Rangers
Rangers
Rangers

Dark Reapers w/ Exarch with a Tempest Launcher (as many as I got points)

Alaitoc
Crimson Hunter Exarch
Crimson Hunter Exarch
Hemlock

Sometimes it loses 1 foot warlock to upgrade the other to a bike, sometimes I put in a spirit seer in the specialist detachment to give the hemlock and inv. Casual stuff.

So, what do you shoot at?
- Planes are either out of range or sporting a -2
- Rangers are either in the webway or sporting a -2, and Alaitoc rangers can pop Pathfinders to only be hit on 6s (which goes through 'ignore modifiers')
- Dark Reapers are out of LoS through Fire and Fade

The only thing that you can shoot at with a certain 'consistence' are the guardians. So yeah, they carry protect, because they need to be yet another bad choice. Do I move so I shoot a plane, eat Lightning Fast Reactions and waste a ton of shots? Do I try to dig out the rangers through needing an absurd amount of shots as well? Or do I aim for the 'soft' guardians? who then pop celestial shield so arent soft anymore so whatever I might shoot at is a losing proposition and I already took losses turn 1 from the reapers and the crimson hunters so its not like I even have that much firepower anyways.

At least, thats been my plan thus far, and has led me to a rather favorable winrate. The hemlock rushes in to jinx and dies gloriously, Eldrad Dooms something, Guides the reapers (or the Guardians) and Fortunes the Guardians (or the reapers), the other warlocks are a jinx/protect back up (while there is a hemlock its protect for the guardians, otherwise its jinx) and the ocassional 3rd warlock / spirit seer is for conceal (for the reapers / guardians / autarch). Doom helps trigger bladestorm, advancing and firing with no penalty is also great since the autarch is often nearby (and another reason the guardian screen shouldnt die so quickly) so very few misses and if you shoot at the right things its got a deceivingly large effect. Which is a trap, because then the enemy focus on the 'threatening' guardians they can see, instead of the reapers they cant see or the planes they cant reach. :D

I think my current winrate at 2k is something like 19-2, going against all kinds of armies: Mech guard, infantry guard, dread waagh orks, knights is my more frequent enemy (inc. triple crusader lists) etc. Hell, we'd often proxy the latest top lists tweak them a bit and smash them into each other, but I keep falling back to my own playstyle because I dont really like wave serpents, night spinners nor running 6 - 9 planes xD.