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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Anyway, my nightmare scenario almost happened today. A disgruntled player from three tournaments ago who had a problem with his final round opponent (but didn't call a judge) decided he was going to publicly sabotage our upcoming tournament by carrying on about how poorly run our events are (because I'm not psychic, apparently) and warning everyone not to come on the announcement posts in the local 40k Facebook groups, which we depend on to motivate attendance. It looked pretty bad for a bit, but then other people who'd attended before popped out of the woodwork to talk about what a great time they'd always had. Scared me half to death.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Of of course, but there is a huge difference between "living off sales motivated by events" and "living off event fees alone".
    Event fees in my area are a net neutral, because ticket sales are always refunded in the form of prize pools, or goes back into the store or club by way of 'writing off' terrain kits. After all, who is buying terrain kits off the shelf when the store already has several tables' worth?

    e.g; 'Ticket sales' paid for the store to have a set of Shrines of Aquilla. A bunch of players demanded to have more LoS blockers in the store, but the store can't actually hold ITC tournaments, so instead of saying that the bottom level of Ruins blocks LoS, just have Ruins where LoS is mostly blocked on the bottom level.

    There was a tournament run by an FLGS a while back I went to where the store manager pocketed the ticket sales, and 'prize support' was dust-covered and/or sun-damaged boxes that had clearly been on the shelf for over a year and never moved. You're literally just getting rid of stock you can't move. Well played. Your prize support is a joke and we're no longer paying to come to your events (i.e; We're no longer coming to your events).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Event fees in my area are a net neutral, because ticket sales are always refunded in the form of prize pools, or goes back into the store or club by way of 'writing off' terrain kits. After all, who is buying terrain kits off the shelf when the store already has several tables' worth?

    e.g; 'Ticket sales' paid for the store to have a set of Shrines of Aquilla. A bunch of players demanded to have more LoS blockers in the store, but the store can't actually hold ITC tournaments, so instead of saying that the bottom level of Ruins blocks LoS, just have Ruins where LoS is mostly blocked on the bottom level.

    There was a tournament run by an FLGS a while back I went to where the store manager pocketed the ticket sales, and 'prize support' was dust-covered and/or sun-damaged boxes that had clearly been on the shelf for over a year and never moved. You're literally just getting rid of stock you can't move. Well played. Your prize support is a joke and we're no longer paying to come to your events (i.e; We're no longer coming to your events).
    The prize pools in my area quite often consist of store credit. So the store effectively uses the prizes to get you to buy stuff. The bigger tournaments (IE, the ones not directly run by a store in a store) will have proper prizes consisting of box sets of various stuff. Typically there's a couple boardgames, some terrain, and then the grand prize is usually a big warhammer kit. Last time it was the Apocalypse rule set.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    The prize pools in my area quite often consist of store credit. So the store effectively uses the prizes to get you to buy stuff. The bigger tournaments (IE, the ones not directly run by a store in a store) will have proper prizes consisting of box sets of various stuff. Typically there's a couple boardgames, some terrain, and then the grand prize is usually a big warhammer kit. Last time it was the Apocalypse rule set.
    The conversation about tournament prizes has made me realise that as far as I’m aware, in the UK we don’t really have store level tournaments with prizes like this. GW has basically cornered the market in ‘store with playing space’, and they don’t do prize tournaments. There are a few independent stores with playing space, particularly in London, but they are not especially prevalent in the way described by others on this thread. We also have regional tournaments with significant prize pools, but these are not run by stores themselves (some stores sponsor by giving prizes though).

    I wonder about the extent this explains or is a product of different attitudes to competion in games. My local independent stores running MtG and other events don’t have large prize pools for those either: standard models for MtG are either ‘1 booster per round you win’ or ‘two boosters in the pool per player, every player gets at least 1, top players get a bit more’. We get very rare ‘win a box’ tournaments for MtG, but those are exceptional and only a few players want them to happen. So there is much less importance placed on winning a tournament here in terms of prizes.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    The prize pools in my area quite often consist of store credit.
    My local store has tournament 'tickets' be gift certificates, because playing for real money would be illegal.

    My local club used to have boxes to put up for prizes, but, like, as tiered rewards for recruitment. "If we get [X] players, 1st and 2nd Prize will split a box of Imperial Knights: Renegade, OMG!"
    This backfired pretty hard as it meant that anybody who didn't want to play Imperium or Chaos basically had nothing to play for, or, rather, even 3rd Prize would still be Faction specific like a Russ or something, and all's you're doing is giving an Eldar player a Knight with which they're just going to sell for free money. Which isn't really in the spirit of anything.

    Eventually the club ended up turning entry money into store credit at [not GW, coincidentally it was a store run by a member of the club], because playing for pre-determined Faction-specific products was lame.

    So the store effectively uses the prizes to get you to buy stuff.
    As I said, the store should end up being net neutral. Because the 'store credit' was already paid for when you bought the ticket. You're simply turning paid-for store credit, into goods. The store doesn't gain anything unless you end up purchasing something with a value greater than your winnings - which, well, that's what the store is hoping for.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    As I said, the store should end up being net neutral. Because the 'store credit' was already paid for when you bought the ticket. You're simply turning paid-for store credit, into goods. The store doesn't gain anything unless you end up purchasing something with a value greater than your winnings - which, well, that's what the store is hoping for.
    Works the same for us. Tournament entry is a $10 GW gift certificate. Tournament prizes for 1st, 2nd & 3rd is a biased split of the total entry fee. If there's enough entrants, there'll often be a best painted army and best sport too, which are usually about equal to 3rd place. If anything is going to be written off, and the tourney is small, then best sport often gets that.

    "But Drasius you handsome devil, how does the store make money if they don't collect an entry fee?"

    A combination of having a large variety of tourney rules and points, giving different units a chance to shine and people naturally building different armies. It's pretty rare for us to have 2 tournies a year where the rules are the same. Perennial favourites are 1250 doubles, 1250 limited force org, 2k themed, 2k WAAC, Escalation Campaign 500/1k/1500/2k, New year new army. There's often some limitations or custom rules in place in addition to the large mission variety, then we've got the occassional Maelstrom curveball in there as well. Plus the yearly Xmas events, store birthday, yearly apoc and random events, so there's always something that's going to make you think that it's time to build that cool army idea you've been thinking of for the last [time period].
    Last edited by Drasius; 2019-09-02 at 03:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    "But Drasius you handsome devil, how does the store make money if they don't collect an entry fee?"
    ...If your meta isn't stale AF and people are willing to change and/or improve their armies...

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    "living off sales motivated by events"
    ...If you tell people that a tournament is happening, and those people are motivated enough to give a **** about said tournament, then if you build it, they will buy. This is why things like 'Rules sell models' are a thing in the first place.


    Problems only arise when your meta is stale AF. Once a Guard player has a Brigade under their belt, why bother buying anything else? If your Codex is decently balanced and the player is properly motivated, they can 'try different things' for a long, long time. For example, if I wanted to play Necrons in the next tournament, I wouldn't buy anything because I have everything I need from the Codex because GW hates Necrons.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    ...If your meta isn't stale AF and people are willing to change and/or improve their armies...
    Have non-****ty customers isn't usually a stellar plan for a business though.

    But yes, as a group, it really isn't very hard to convince basically anyone in the store that they need a new army. In fact, I'd say for most it'd be a strange year when any of the regulars didn't make at least 1 new army.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    My local store has tournament 'tickets' be gift certificates, because playing for real money would be illegal.
    Store credit essentially is a gift certificate. Cash payouts would be illegal in most of the U.S. too (except in Nevada, which is why the Las Vegas Open is as big as it is) barring a raffle license. You can't cash out store credit.

    And store credit (or gift certificates, for that matter) isn't neutral unless the store is selling things at wholesale cost.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2019-09-02 at 07:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    ...I wouldn't presume that. My guess is that there's a Terminator Ancient coming down the line, released with one of the Supplements.
    But, releasing a Terminator model feels like GW going backwards to old!Marines. So I doubt it.
    So, maybe it is a conversion opportunity?

    I actually forgot that Codex Marines don't have a Terminator Ancient, while Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights, do. I thought they all did.
    One of the newer Space Marine Heroes is a terminator ancient, apparently, so I imagine that's why.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    FAQ for Codex Space Marines is up. Couple of interesting things I spotted: firstly, a change to power level for Hellblasters, which I think is a first? Secondly, the below response, which I think someone (Cheesegear?) was asking about:

    Q: Does adding an Officio Assassinorum model to my army with the ‘Operative Requisition Sanctioned’ Stratagem prevent the rest of my army from using Combat Doctrines?
    A: Yes. Note that this model remains part of your army if it is destroyed.
    Not the answer I expected tbh!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    To whoever posted that list with a bunch of the new Skorpius for AdMech, a very similar list just took 5th. at Nova, so congratulations!.

    Its so sad to see Craftworlds flushed out of the meta. Orkz are relying hard on a crutch, lets hope they dont rework them back into irrelevance. And well, GSC / Tau were unexpected as top finishers. Still cant convince anyone here of playing either of them.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    • For the first time...Ever?...Power Rating has been adjusted. Presumably because 10 Hellblasters are a lot better than 5.
    • Vox Espiritum & Phobos Captain nerfed. TO I need to change my list.
    • GW says 'Stratagems from this Codex can only be used on units from this Codex.', but in the dumbest way possible.
    • Despite not being part of your army list, Assassins count as being part of your army. TO I need to change my list.
    • Imperial Fists' Infiltrators are ****ing good. It's a shame that GW hasn't got around to releasing them yet for no reason.
    • Phobos Chapter Masters & Infiltrators confirmed not to work, since a Chapter Master doesn't have Rites of Battle and this is clearly a stupid question.
    • Shooting and Firing twice in a single phase still works on Salamanders.
    • Bizarre bull**** confirmed to still happen with wargear swapping.
    • Drop Pods confirmed for dumb 'Do whatever you want.' ruling...Again.
    • Ultramarines' Aggressors confirmed to work exactly how you think they do.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-09-02 at 10:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Pondering inspired by recent talk on Terminators and the ruling on Assassins: how good/bad would a change to deep strike rules be that said something like ‘models with deep strike may be added to your army during a game through reinforcement points’.

    Initial thought would be that it would need some restriction, otherwise an Imperial Soup player just has a huge number of options depending on who they are facing. Perhaps ‘you cannot bring on more points from a codex in this way than deployed on the battlefield initially’. E.g. to bring on 500 pts of deep strike Grey Knights from reinforcement points, you need 500 pts of Grey Knights in your initial list.

    Definitely needs more thinking, but a change like this could give a lot of interesting options in list building, such as an army with 500 pts each of Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Space Marines then bringing on a final 500pts of whochever is most suited to the game at hand.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    My local store has tournament 'tickets' be gift certificates, because playing for real money would be illegal.

    My local club used to have boxes to put up for prizes, but, like, as tiered rewards for recruitment. "If we get [X] players, 1st and 2nd Prize will split a box of Imperial Knights: Renegade, OMG!"
    This backfired pretty hard as it meant that anybody who didn't want to play Imperium or Chaos basically had nothing to play for, or, rather, even 3rd Prize would still be Faction specific like a Russ or something, and all's you're doing is giving an Eldar player a Knight with which they're just going to sell for free money. Which isn't really in the spirit of anything.

    Eventually the club ended up turning entry money into store credit at [not GW, coincidentally it was a store run by a member of the club], because playing for pre-determined Faction-specific products was lame.



    As I said, the store should end up being net neutral. Because the 'store credit' was already paid for when you bought the ticket. You're simply turning paid-for store credit, into goods. The store doesn't gain anything unless you end up purchasing something with a value greater than your winnings - which, well, that's what the store is hoping for.
    It's worth mentioning that for the small tournaments (and a couple of the larger ones) the prizes are given out by raffle. Which I really love, because it makes the tournament more about fun and pride then 'I've got to win in order to get stuff, so everything is super serious.'


    It's a positive for the store, since it doesn't cost them anything to run the tournament. In fact, they usually also then make a bit of money selling snacks and pizza during the tournament.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Its all about the playerbase. Our pokemon kids love the 'everyone gets a prize, extra prized at random and for quirky achievements' type of events because they really just want to play and the event is more 'scheduled fun time' than an actual competition. The guys who buy the most sealed though are those who actually want to feel like it matters, where going 4-0 means you get something more than just clap for the 0-4 dork who lucked into a prize. Even if they also tend to lose badly, they need that carrot there in order to withstand the stick of game prices. But there is not a clear cut 'best' for these kind of things, every market is its own microcosmos.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    I attended the Circle City Grand Tournament back in May and literally everybody got a prize (though higher placings got bigger prizes, obviously). Top three each got a detachment (there were three armies to choose from; first place chose first, etc), Best Painted got a Battlefoam army case, Best in Faction winners each got a large model kit from that faction (I got a Hydra for highest placing pure Imperial Guard), and there were little kits for everybody else, chosen in placing order. Not every event can do that, though; they got away with it because the venue was free. A guy up there built a barn on his property just to play 40k in and the place is bonkers and free to use for TOs in the central part of the state.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Fun fact about stores holding tournaments; Reece says he has data to prove holding ITC events will increase business for the store.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    My tendency is to not believe anything Reese says.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    My tendency is to not believe anything Reese says.
    Maybe so, but since joining the ITC our tournament attendance has skyrocketed. I used to never dream of getting 40 players in the store; before we started our record was twelve.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Pondering inspired by recent talk on Terminators and the ruling on Assassins: how good/bad would a change to deep strike rules be that said something like ‘models with deep strike may be added to your army during a game through reinforcement points’.
    Horrendous from a gameplay standpoint. Because the amount of bookkeeping and extra models you'd need to bring with you is a clusterf***. Daemon players who go Reinforcement heavy have to spend a ****-ton of extra money on models they might not even use, and even then, they still have to bring a spreadsheet.

    It's good if your goal is to sell models, though.

    The reason that Assassins works the way it does, because the number of extra models you need to buy/bring with you is 3. Some people can eat the cost of 3 models, and some people will do really cool conversions and make their own Assassins - after all, they only have to make 3 (or 4).

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Unfortunately, not in the way that counts...Reducing points values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    It's worth mentioning that for the small tournaments (and a couple of the larger ones) the prizes are given out by raffle. Which I really love, because it makes the tournament more about fun and pride then 'I've got to win in order to get stuff, so everything is super serious.'
    Well...Yeah. But when that happens it's written in bold text in the tournament event packet that you will not be playing for prizes per se. If there are no prizes for winning, why even try?

    For example, in an ANZAC Day event, your army must be predominantly painted yellow, green, black or white. Either you already have one of those, or you paint an army special for a single event. This means that a whole bunch of people immediately drop out, this means that ticket sales are lower, therefore, the prize pool is lower. Since there isn't even a 'real' prize pool, it'll be given out as a raffle and prizes will given out for best painted and best conversion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    My tendency is to not believe anything Reese says.
    My tendency is to believe everything he says.
    I think the idea is that by hosting an ITC tournament, you get to post it on their website, which gives your tournament eyeballs in the competitive community.

    That's the major reason why the ITC took off the way it did - organisation at the (inter)national level.

    If there was a place that you could post all your non-ITC tournaments (e.g; DUP Network, for Australia), that would work just as well.

    Advertising, works. FLG is just...A host. Anyone could do what they do. But at this point, FLG has the de facto monopoly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Maybe so, but since joining the ITC our tournament attendance has skyrocketed.
    In my meta, I wouldn't say ITC vs. non-ITC gets more attendance. But, ITC tournaments get faster attendance.
    An ITC tournament can sell out in 3 days.
    A non-ITC tournament, will still sell out, but it will take 3 weeks.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-09-03 at 01:00 AM.
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    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
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    Cheesegear is awesome

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Horrendous from a gameplay standpoint. Because the amount of bookkeeping and extra models you'd need to bring with you is a clusterf***. Daemon players who go Reinforcement heavy have to spend a ****-ton of extra money on models they might not even use, and even then, they still have to bring a spreadsheet.

    It's good if your goal is to sell models, though.

    The reason that Assassins works the way it does, because the number of extra models you need to buy/bring with you is 3. Some people can eat the cost of 3 models, and some people will do really cool conversions and make their own Assassins - after all, they only have to make 3 (or 4).
    Those are definitely big downsides! I don't think there is any way around the 'need extra miniatures' problem, and it would feed into pay to win. Adding more pay to win to the game is a bad thing, and this approach would particularly hit players who do everything they can to win, though I suspect most players will just gain a bit more flexibility from their existing collections.

    I wonder if there is a way to introduce flexible reinforcements in a way that doesn't require so much book keeping? Perhaps something like building in the options in your list: spend a command point for each set of options you want? So spend 500 points on deep strike, then if you spend a command point you can have an alternative set of 500 points as an option, 2 command points you have 3 sets of options etc.
    Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Those are definitely big downsides! I don't think there is any way around the 'need extra miniatures' problem, and it would feed into pay to win. Adding more pay to win to the game is a bad thing, and this approach would particularly hit players who do everything they can to win, though I suspect most players will just gain a bit more flexibility from their existing collections.

    I wonder if there is a way to introduce flexible reinforcements in a way that doesn't require so much book keeping? Perhaps something like building in the options in your list: spend a command point for each set of options you want? So spend 500 points on deep strike, then if you spend a command point you can have an alternative set of 500 points as an option, 2 command points you have 3 sets of options etc.
    More bookkeeping, and its very hard to fit in neat chunks of 500 points, and yes those 3 - 5 points you leave out matter, if you lose because your target saved all your chainsword hits, thats 3 points worth of powersword that wouldve killed him and won you the game. If you fail to wound with your missile launcher and roll a 3, that means that it not being a lascannon due to points going over cost you the kill.

    There is very little to win by giving summons to other factions. It doesnt just dilude Daemons niche, it creates poor habits, endless bickering and number checking, and a terrible play experience all around.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    That's the major reason why the ITC took off the way it did - organisation at the (inter)national level.

    If there was a place that you could post all your non-ITC tournaments (e.g; DUP Network, for Australia), that would work just as well.

    Advertising, works. FLG is just...A host. Anyone could do what they do. But at this point, FLG has the de facto monopoly.
    ITC already is that. You don't have to use their format to be on the circuit; in fact, I don't. All you have to do is slap their logo on the event page and submit it to them to get on the calendar.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Well, Space Marines' FAQ/Errata changed a lot less than I thought it would.
    Nevertheless, am working on the Guide for Marines as we speak.

    inb4; What about the Chaos Daemons Guide you're already halfway through and haven't worked on for weeks? ...lol


    ION:
    Anyone got any good ideas for Blood Ravens' heads (I am waiving my 'no no-helmets' rule, because this is a Thing). They will exclusively come out of old!Marine kits:
    - Tactical Squads
    - Assault Squads
    - Devastator Squads
    - Sternguard Squads
    - Vanguard Squads
    - Terminators?

    I remember that GW explicitly made heads to resemble the three characters from Space Marine, but did they do the same for DoW2?
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-09-03 at 04:53 PM.
    Steam Name: Cheesegear
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    You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.


    Spoiler
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    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Guide to Space Marines (Part I)
    The Adeptus Astartes

    Spoiler: Special Rules
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    Angels of Death
    And They Shall Know No Fear; All your units can re-roll Morale tests. It's not very useful 'cause the vast majority of the time you're going to run 5-man units, and when you do take Morale tests, there are ways around it.
    • The majority of your units are Ld8. You have a 50:50 shot of rolling a 4+. How many dudes need to die before rolling a 4+ removes one model. 9-4=5. So, by the time you're even worried about taking Morale tests, the entire unit is dead anyway? Morale only becomes an issue when you're running squads larger than 5 models, and that's only if your opponent can destroy 5 models in a single turn. So, units of 10 Primaris Marines actually might make use out of And They Shall No Know Fear, 'cause it's unlikely that your opponent can remove enough models to force a Morale test. If your opponent can remove more than 5 Primaris Marines from a unit in a single turn, they're probably running something good, and it's going to take more than 'Resistant to Morale tests' to beat them.

    Bolter Discipline; As well as the normal rules for Rapid Fire, models firing 'Bolt weapons' also gain Rapid Fire if they don't move. Additionally, <Terminators>, <Bikers>, <Centurions> and <Dreadnoughts> also get it all the time, regardless of whether they moved or not. That's pretty good.

    Shock Assault; In the first turn of Melee, your models gain +1 attack. This is very good. It's also very useless. Depends on the units that you're using.

    Combat Doctrines; If every unit in your army has this ability, you gain a set of Combat Doctrines for the game. You start the game with Devastator Doctrine, but, at the start of each Round (whether or not you go first), you can choose to change it to the next one 'up', and the effects last until you choose to change it again. Sadly, the AP bonuses do not stack with any other bonuses to AP, explicitly calling out Storm of Fire. Sad face.

    If Devastator Doctrine is active, change to Tactical Doctrine.
    If Tactical Doctrine is active, change to Assault Doctrine.
    As you can see, you can't go 'backwards', more importantly, something like Assault Doctrine wont be active until at least Round 3. So, don't get too excited about Chainswords having AP-1, 'cause that ain't happening until Turn 3...By which time a lot of stuff should have already happened.

    • Devastator Doctrine; Heavy and Grenade weapons have an additional AP. It's pretty good. But we'll circle back to this when relevant. The fact that you must start every single game with this up, will always dictate what you're going to do on your first turn, which in turn, dictates how you're going to build your army list. That is, your most explosive turn - Turn 1, that is - is going to focus around having Heavy weapons with AP-1 (now, -2). In essence, GW wants all Space Marine armies to start off as gunlines, and progress through the board during the game...Of course you don't have to do that and you can just stay on Devastator the entire game, but that's not a very good idea if you're playing solo-Marines*.
    • Tactical Doctrine; Rapid Fire and Assault weapons have an additional AP. This is extremely good because almost every model you own is going to be carrying a Rapid Fire weapon, which, combined with Bolter Discipline (above) can give you an explosive Turn 2, now all's you gotta do is stay out of Charge range...
    • Assault Doctrine; Pistol and Melee weapons have an additional AP. Well, Pistols are trash, don't even bother. But having your Chainswords be AP-1 is a huge boost to your Melee capabilities. But, the problem with Assault Doctrine being that's it's fairly endgame, and not being able to switch back to Tactical or Devastator may well ruin your late game if you haven't brought allied units...But if you've brought allied units, you wouldn't have Combat Doctrines, would you?

    Basically, there's nothing complicated here. Increase the AP of certain weapons during the game, sometimes. Adding AP is always good, whether it's AP-1 or AP-3, doesn't matter. Every point of AP, counts...Unless it's over -4. AP-5 is basically useless in all but the most minor of circumstances. But, really, the AP you most want to look out for, is AP-2. Going from AP- to AP-1, isn't nothing, but don't build your army based on the fact that around Turns 3 or 4 your Chainswords might be AP-1.

    *You might have noticed a particular word has been highlighted; Army. This doesn't look like a kick in the junk. But it is. Essentially it limits you to units in Codex: Space Marines if you want access to bonus AP. Is bonus AP worth losing access to Guard or Knight Detachments? Hell, even Deathwatch Detachments? ...Not really. If you want to run a combination of Raven Guard and Black Templars, you get Combat Doctrines, go nuts. If you want to run a combination of Raven Guard and Blood Angels? ...No. Generally speaking, Combat Doctrines is definitely not worth losing access to one of the most powerful models in the game - Knight Crusaders (yes, it makes everyone sad) or Blood Angels and Deathwatch Detachments. That being said, if all you want to do is pretend that 'One Codex = One Army', at least GW doesn't hate you for doing it?

    Legacy of the Primarchs
    GW talks about what makes a <Chapter>. But, fact is, unless you're using a Supplement, your Chapter Keyword doesn't make any difference at all. Paint your models however you want. Use any Chapter Tactic you want. If every model in a Detachment is drawn from this Codex, gain the following;

    Defenders of Humanity; All your Troops hold Objectives against units that don't have a similar ability. If they do have a similar ability, default to most models. This rule is kind of pointless on Space Marines since even Scouts are still 11 Points each and wont outnumber anyone who has a dedicated Objective-grabbing army. At the end of the day, this ability is really useful...Except when it isn't. And for Space Marines, it's more not useful, than it is.

    If every model in a Detachment is drawn from the same <Chapter>, gain the following;

    Chapter Tactics - All units in your Detachment gain one of the following:
    • Ultramarines: +1 Leadership. Additionally, your models can Fall Back and Shoot (at -1 to hit) in the same phase. Very strong Chapter Tactic.
      This Chapter is good if your opponent is particularly aggressive. They're either dropping your models left-and-right (forcing you to take Morale tests), or they're Charging you on Turns 1 and/or 2 making life very difficult for your units carrying Rapid Fire wepaons. The Leadership buff is also useful if you're interested in the Psychic Scourge Power.
    • Imperial Fists: Your units Ignore Cover. Additionally, when firing Bolt weapons, an unmodified 6 to hit, causes an additional hit.
      This Chapter is very useful if you plan on packing a lot of AP-1 weapons into your list (and Combat Doctrines makes them -2), and you aren't interested in Cover saves negating that - especially Prepared Positions, which screws over your first turn. Also, Bolt weapons.
    • White Scars; Advance or Fall Back and Charge in the same turn. Additionally, <Bikers> ignore penalties to hit when Moving or Advancing with Heavy and Assault weapons, respectively.
      This is an unsurprisingly aggressive Chapter Tactic to take. Unfortunately, unless you have Codex Supplement: White Scars, don't bother.
    • Raven Guard; If your models are more than 12" away from your opponent, you count as being in cover. Additionally, if your unit is not a <Vehicle> and your unit is actually in Cover, you have -1 to hit, instead.
      This is an exceptionally strong Chapter Tactic if you plan on playing defensively, and for some reason aren't also a fan of Ultramarines.
    • Salamanders; Each unit can re-roll a single hit roll or wound roll each time it attacks. Additionally, Salamanders ignore AP-1 weapons. This is potentially very strong depending on who your opponent is.
      Free re-rolls are always good, especially for units carrying a single Heavy or Special weapon that needs to hit and/or wound. Inlcuding Hellfire Shells or Flakk Missile. It is not so useful when every single model carries the same weapon and it doesn't really matter if one or two don't go through (e.g; All Primaris units). The 'Ignore AP-1' isn't very useful, because your opponent will either hit you with a bunch of AP- attacks, or AP-2 attacks. Either way, ignoring half your Chapter Tactics. So, yeah. Play to your meta.
    • Iron Hands; Ignore Wounds (6+), and hit during Overwatch on 5+. Additionally, models with Damage tables count as having double their wounds, for the purposes of said Damage tables.
      These guys are deceptively good. Being more survivable should never be off the table, especially if you're Marines and would like to hold Objectives more than never. Obviously, it's also very strong if you plan on running a lot of Vehicles.
    • Black Templars; Re-roll any dice when Charging, and, Ignore Mortal Wounds (5+).
      Pretty self-explanatory. Do you like Charging? Combat Doctrines is pretty problematic as you're always going to start with Devastator Doctrine. But them's the breaks. That being said, if you want to run non-Codex Marine allies with your Black Templars, who even cares if you lost Combat Doctrines 'cause it's not like it's helping you anyway.
    • Crimson Fists; When resolving an attack against a unit that has at least 5 more models than yours, you get +1 to hit - your <Vehicles> count as 5 models, your opponents' don't. Additionally, when firing Bolt weapons, an unmodified 6 to hit, causes an additional hit.
      Obviously if you're playing games where your opponent frequently has units of 10 or 15+ models strong, then Crimson Fists are for you. If your opponents have 10+ or 15+ model units, you'll also want to be firing a lot of Bolt weapons, and extra hits never goes wrong.

    Not every Chapter Tactic is useful for every model in the Codex. Just because you like a certain unit, and a certain Chapter, doesn't mean those two things go well together. That being said, you can run multiple Space Marine Detachments and not lose anything because every unit in this book has Combat Doctrines, regardless of the Chapter it's drawn from.


    Spoiler: Successor Chapter Tactics
    Show
    You can be a Successor Chapter, and still use any Codex Supplement you want. This is presumably because GW would lose sales on Supplements if people wanted to create their own Chapter, and couldn't use the Supplements. That being said, this rationale is prone to being nerfed out of the game.

    Some of the Successor Chapter Tactics are very specific, and this, amazingly powerful against the same one or two opponents who play the same armies over and over and over again. However, if your meta pool is more diverse than that, and each player has access to two or three different armies, certain Tactics are way less useful than they appear. Other Tactics are brutally strong and it's very worth not running a First Founding Chapter and losing named Characters. In any case, choose two* of the following:

    Bolter Fusillades: When using Bolt weapons, re-roll 1s to hit. You mean like what a Captain does? Yeah. Ignore this one.

    Born Heroes: <Characters> can Heroic Intervene 6". You could probably do something with Supreme Commands. Otherwise don't even bother.

    Duellists: When attacking <Infantry> or <Bikers> in Melee, a 6 to hit automatically wounds. Well, it's one way to bring down Knights with Chainswords, where a Chapter Master would let you re-roll to hit. But other than churning out a lot of low-strength attacks, this one doesn't really have any use. Can't be combined with Whirlwind of Rage.

    Fearsome Aspect: Your opponents' units have -1 Leadership while within 3" of any of your units. Useful for gimmick armies.

    Hungry for Battle: +1 to Advance and Charge rolls.

    Indomitable: Never lose more than 1 model to Morale tests. This would be really good if you were ever going to bother taking units more than 7 or 8 strong. Since you're Space Marines and that's not possible...Ignore this one, too.

    *Inheritors of the Primarch: ...Unless you pick this one. The only reason to pick this is if you have a Codex Supplement, but for some reason don't want to use any of their Unique characters or any of the better Relics.
    The fact that GW included this as a rule justifies 'hobby oppression', in that the colours you like, subjectively, as an individual, will objectively affect how your army performs on the table. Unless your meta is Toxic AF, if you like a Chapter's rules, then play those Chapters' rules and paint your models however you like. Anyone who tries to bully you into painting your models a specific colour, can get ****ed. If you clearly identify what Chapter you're using before the game begins, you're golden as far as anyone-who-treats-people-like-people is concerned. The only reason to ever enforce this rule is if you're GW and you're treating people like products, and using their army/model photos for free publicity.

    Knowledge is Power: Re-roll 1s when taking Psychic tests or making Deny rolls. Very specific and very limited application. Avoid.

    Long-Range Marksmen: Add 3" to all ranged weapons. This is pretty good for when your meta is lousy with gunlines and you want to outshoot them by giving up board control (not an even trade). It doesn't really help with Melta weapons coming out of Drop Pods. But it does help with Flamer-type weapons which now have a range of 11". So there is an application to this Chapter Tactic, if you're willing to stretch the definition of 'Marksman'.

    Master Artisans: Each unit gets a single re-roll to hit and to wound each time it attacks. As with Salamanders, this can be good, provided you build your units correctly...Hint; The correct units are not Primaris Marines.

    Preferred Enemy: Choose one; <Tyranids>, <Aeldari>, <Ork>, <Heretic Astartes>, <Necrons> or <T'au>. You can re-roll to hit in the Fight phase during the first turn of combat.
    Competitively, neither <Chaos Daemons> or <Astra Militarum> are choosable, so out goes two of the most competitive options. Casually, this Chapter Tactic is rife for abuse, as you have no reason to pick any Faction that you don't play against. Switch your Chapter Tactic as-needed. If your opponents are catching on that you're doing this, and for some reason it's Bad Form because you're consistently tailoring against your opponents ...Then ignore this Chapter Tactic. It's usefulness is far too limited in scope unless you continuously play the exact same person and for whatever reason they're unable to change their army.

    Rapid Assault: Ignore the penalty for Advancing and firing Assault weapons. This is one of the best Tactics in the list, and you definitely build your Detachment around it as opens up a boatload of board-control. This is what you should choose, if you want to play White Scars, but don't have access to the Supplement. For most non-Melee Space Marine armies (which should be most of them, let's be honest), this is your go-to.

    Scions of the Forge: Vehicles have double the wounds for the purposes of Damage tables. Another very strong Tactic that you build your Detachment around.

    Stalwart: You're never wounded on 2s. This looks good. But it isn't. The majority of your units are T4 or T5, which means in order to wound your Infantry on 2+, your opponent is going to be shooting S8 or S10 weapons at your Infantry models. That's an extremely sub-optimal play, and maybe you should probably let them? When it comes to Vehicles, well, your Vehicles are T6 to T8, almost nothing is wounding your Vehicles on 2+. So...Yeah. This Tactic is really good when your opponent is forced to make bad plays. Since it's not cool to treat your opponent like a straw man, you should probably assume that they're not going to make mistakes like shooting anti-tank weapons that do D6 Damage at Infantry, so yeah. Ignore this one.

    Stealthy: When your opponent is over 12" away, gain a Cover save. This is what you should take instead of adding 3" to your ranged weapons.

    Stoic: +1 Leadership...For what?

    Tactical Withdrawl: Fall Back and Charge in the same turn. Remember that each time you Charge, you give your opponent a free Overwatch. So there are significant downsides to this one. However, combined with Shock Assault and other 'first turn of combat' abilities, this can pair very good with whatever Melee unit you've decided to go with.

    Warded: Ignore Mortal Wounds (5+). Pretty limited application, and thus, avoid for general play.

    Whirlwind of Rage: In the first turn of combat, each unmodified 6 to hit generates an additional hit. Pretty solid. Can not be combined with Duellists.

    There is a lot of bull**** you can pull off if you're going to do multiple Detachments using multiple Successor Tactics. For example, the Detachment that contains all your Infantry has Hungry for Battle and Rapid Assault, while your Spearhead Detachment which contains only Vehicles has Stealthy and Scions of the Forge. Yes, you'll have some issues with your Characters' Auras. But you can work around that because you know how to build your army.
    ...If you have to differentiate your Detachments because your hobby is being oppressed having multiple models that look identical but have different rules is abusable for you at worst, and confusing for your opponent at best, the easiest and fluff-centric way to do that while still maintaining a coherant-looking army, is to base your army around Company colours (e.g; Shoulder rims).


    Spoiler: Warlord Traits
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    Space Marine Warlord Traits
    1. Fear Made Manifest; More Leadership gimmicks.
    2. The Imperium's Sword; Re-roll Charges. Additionally, when you Charge or Heroic Intervene, +1S and +1A. Decent.
    3. Iron Resolve; +1W and Ignore Wounds (6+). There are better ways to do this.
    4. Champion of Humanity; When an enemy <Character> is within 1" of your Warlord, +1. Additionally, when targeting an enemy <Character> with a Melee weapon, +1 to hit and wound. Very strong.
    5. Storm of Fire; <Chapter> Shooting attacks within 6" of your Warlord gain an additional AP on a unmodified 6 to hit. Explicitly doesn't stack with Combat Doctrines which makes it kind of not very useful unless you're running a bunch of allied Detachments - which you should be. The only reason to not run Storm of Fire, is if you're running pure Marines.
    6. Rites of War; Your Warlord has Defenders of Humanity (yay!). Additionally <Chapter> units near your Warlord auto-pass Morale tests. This is what you'd pick when you are running solo-Marines.

    Vanguard Warlord Traits <Phobos Characters> only. Though Phobos units can still pick from anywhere else, if they want.
    1. Shoot and Fade; <Chapter Phobos> unit within 6" can move after it shoots. It must Advance with this move, but cannot Charge in the same turn.
    2. Lord of Deceit; At the start of the first battle round (after your opponent does or doesn't roll a '6' to steal), redeploy up to three <Chapter Phobos> units. This is potentially extremely good.
    3. Master of the Vanguard; <Chapter Phobos> units within 6" have +1 Move, Advance and Charge. The +1 to Move and Advance effectively gives +2.
    4. Stealth Adept; Your opponent has -1 to hit your Warlord - even in Melee. If your meta is lousy with Oathbreakers, well, this helps.
    5. Target Priority; <Chapter Phobos> unit has +1 to hit in the Shooting phase.
    6. Marksman's Honour; Your Warlord's ranged weapons have +1 Damage.
    Aside from the obvious '...in Phobos Armour' HQ models for your Warlord in the first place, your <Phobos> units are Infiltrators, Incursors, Reivers and Eliminators. It's a real shame that only Reivers have Assault weapons - and bad ones, at that.

    Chapter Warlord Traits
    • Ultramarines; Everytime you use a CP, refund it on a 5+. This can only happen once per round. So if you're spending 2-3 CPs on a single Stratagem, getting one back isn't bad.
    • Imperial Fists; <Imperial Fists> within 6" of your Warlord get +2 to their Cover save instead of +1...Against AP-1 weapons only. Surely there's a better way to word this.
    • White Scars; When your Warlord completes a Charge; On a 2+, an enemy unit within 1" takes a Mortal Wound.
    • Raven Guard; Your Warlord can't be Overwatch'd.
    • Salamanders; +2S. Is that it? ...That's it. inb4; No, this is no need for a S12 Power Fist.
    • Iron Hands; Your Warlord makes extra attacks on unmodified 6s to hit. All phases.
    • Black Templars; Heroic Intervene 6". Pretty insulting that a custom Chapter could have this on every Character.
    • Crimson Fists; When your Warlord dies, on a 4+ they get up with D3 wounds...They must be placed more than 1" away from enemy models. This does allow your model to teleport out of Melee.

    Q: Can successor Chapters use the Warlord Traits of their founding Chapter?
    A: Not as presented on page 179 of Codex: Space Marines.
    Basically, buy the Supplement of whatever Chapter you want to be from, where you can.


    Spoiler: Stratagems
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    Q. If I include a Space Marines Detachment in my army, can I use the Stratagems from Codex: Space Marines to affect <Adeptus Astartes> units from other codexes, such as Codex: Grey Knights or Codex: Deathwatch?
    A: No, as noted in the second paragraph under Space Marine Units and Detachments on page 174 of Codex: Space Marines.
    This is a really stupid way of saying 'Stratagems from this Codex can only affect models from this Codex.' In that case, GW should've wrote <Chapter>, instead of <AA>. But hey, if you're gonna copy-paste from the old Codex, you're gonna end up with the same mistakes.

    Armour of Contempt: If an <AA Vehicle> takes a Mortal Wound, gain Ignore Mortal Wounds (5+) against that wound, and all Mortal Wounds for the rest of the phase. This is not Psychic phase-only.

    Auspex Scan (2): If your opponent sets up a unit within 12" of one of your <AA Infantry> units, shoot at them with -1 to hit.

    Supression Fire (2): <Whirlwind> or <Thunderfire Cannon> can shoot twice...But can only use indirect fire weapons. I guess a Whirlwind firing twice with a Storm Bolter is OP?

    Only in Death Does Duty End (2): When an <AA Character> dies, they can immediately Shoot or Fight. Solid.

    Chapter Master (2): <AA Captain> that is not a named Character () starts handing out full re-rolls to hit, not just 1s. For only 2 CPs, this Stratagem could represent well over half a dozen re-rolls. However, a better idea is to use a Codex Supplement and just take an existing Chapter Master and save your CPs. If you're using a Successor, and thus, named Characters are unavailable to you, that's a shame.

    Death to the Traitors!: <AA> unit gains additional attacks in the Fight phase on unmodified 6s to hit vs. <Heretic Astartes>. Use 'em if you got 'em.

    Honour the Chapter (3): At the end of the Fight phase, an <AA> unit within 1" of an enemy unit can Fight again. Pretty strong when used with the right units. Does cost 3 CPs though.

    Duty Eternal: Use when an <AA Dreadnought> gets targeted; For the rest of the phase, the Dreadnought takes half Damage.

    Flakk Missile: When an <AA Infantry> model targets an enemy model with <Fly> using a Missile Launcher, gain +1 to hit and deal D3 Mortal Wounds instead of dealing normal Damage. Very strong.

    Veteran Intercessors (1/2): Before the battle begins, an <Intercessor Squad> gains +1A and +1 Ld. It costs 2 CPs if the unit contains 6 or more models.

    Boltstorm (2): An <Intercessor Squad> using Auto Bolt Rifles automatically hits with its shots if the target is within half range. Holy ****... That's why it's 2 CPs.

    Hunter-Slayer Missile: A <Repulsor> can make a special 48" range shooting attack vs. <Vehicles> or <Monsters>. Roll a D6, if the result is greater than the Repulsor's BS, do D3 Mortal Wounds. Each Repulsor can only use this once per game.
    It is worded in this awkward way, so that it isn't a 'to hit roll' and thus can't be modified by re-rolls that Space Marine Characters could hand out. Meanwhile, giving re-rolls to Flakk Missile is totally different.

    Cluster Mines: When a <Scout Bike> unit Falls Back, roll a 2+; An enemy unit within 1" takes D3 Mortal Wounds. Pretty solid if you're into Scout Bikes.

    Hellfire Shells: When an <AA Infantry> model fires a Heavy Bolter, make one to hit roll. If it hits, do D3 Mortal Wounds.

    Gravitic Amplification: When an <AA> unit makes an attack with Grav-Cannons and Grav-Amps, re-roll to wound and Damage. Re-roll to wound with S5 is very good, especially at AP-3 with the potential for D3 re-rollable Damage.

    Masterful Marksmanship: When a <Sternguard> unit makes a shooting attack, they have +1 to wound using Special Issue Boltguns. +1 to wound is always good.

    Rapid Fire (2): An <Intercessor Squad> using Bolt Rifles has Rapid Fire 2. Four shots each sounds pretty good. Make sure you have a big unit to maximise its effectiveness. At 2 CPs you're not going to use it often, and your opponent probably isn't going to like your 10-man unit sticking around too long at max strength.

    Orbital Bombardment (3): Once per game, an <AA> Warlord can drop a deuce. Pick a point on the board and then roll a D6 for range (). On a 4+, a unit takes D3 Mortal Wounds - 5+ for <Characters>. That's a lot of CPs to fail the dice roll, and then to only do 1 Mortal Wound anyway. Only use this Stratagem if you're truly, truly desperate.

    Relics of the Chapter: Gain an additional Relic for your army list.

    Hammer of Wrath: When a <Jump Pack> unit finishes a Charge move, roll a D6 for each model in the unit. For each 5+, an enemy unit within 1" takes a Mortal Wound.

    Big Guns Never Tire: An <AA Vehicle> can move and shoot Heavy weapons without penalty.

    Fury of the First: An <AA Terminator> unit gains +1 to hit for the phase.

    Target Sighted (3): An <Intercessor Squad> using Stalker Bolt Rifles can target <Characters> and deals additional Mortal Wounds on 6+ to wound.

    Tremor Shells: When using a <Thunderfire Cannon>, you can choose to have -1 to wound. If the target is hit, the target halves their move, Advance and Charge rolls in the next turn. Very useful debuff.

    Wisdom of the Ancients: A <Chapter Dreadnought> basically becomes a Captain for a phase.

    Skyfire: Target <Hunter> or <Stalker> can only target models with <Fly> this phase. Gain +1 to hit and wound, and on an unmodified 6 to wound, that wound deals double Damage. Ouch. Make sure to bring Hunter-Killer Missiles for d6*2 Damage...Maybe. Hunter-Killers are 6 Points. You can afford it.

    Steady Advance: An <AA Infantry> unit gets Bolter Discipline, even if it moved this turn.

    Skilled Riders (2) If target <Biker> or <Land Speeder> unit moves, it has a 4++ against ranged attacks. If they Advance as well, 3++.

    Hero of the Chapter: Before the Battle; Target <AA Character> gets a Warlord Trait. You can only use this once.

    Transhuman Physiology (2): When an <AA> unit is targeted, until end of phase unmodified to wound rolls of 1-3, fail... That'd do it. Probably shouldn't be 2 CPs, though.

    Vengeance of the Machine Spirit (2): When a <Land Raider>, <Repulsor> or <Stormraven> is destroyed, choose one:
    - Automatically explode, or
    - Shoot with one ranged weapon, or
    - Attack with a Melee weapon.
    Use the top row of the Damage table. Yep. Solid. Automatically exploding deals Mortal Wounds, so the choice should be fairly easy. 2CPs is very fair.

    Tactical Flexibility: If a unit contains 10 models, Combat Squad it. The usefulness of Combat Squadding after Deployment is extremely limited unless you're using original Deployment rules where you take it in turns placing individual units, where you can deploy a single unit, but then have it be two, when the game starts.

    Adaptive Strategy: Change from Tactical Doctrine, back to Devastator. Or, change from Assault Doctrine, back to Tactical. Can only be used once. This is incredibly useful for when you don't want changing to Assault Doctrine to have lost you the game.

    Gene-Wrought Might: In the Fight phase, a <Primaris Infantry> unit automatically wounds on unmodified 6s to hit. Use this on Incursors for 1 CP, lol.


    Spoiler: Chapter Relics
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    The Armour Indomitus; <Infantry> or <Biker>. Armour save becomes 2+, and once per game, before saving throws are rolled, you can gain a 3+ Invulnerable until the end of turn. The value of this Relic is extremely situational. But still, it's best used on Characters who are likely to start the game in your opponents' face but don't have an Invulnerable save - like a Phobos Librarian. Still, not a good use of your Relic slot or even a CP.

    The Shield Eternal; [Storm Shield] or [Combat Shield]. Model gains Ignore Wounds (5+). Characters that can take Storm Shields have 6 or less wounds, unless you also burn your Warlord Trait to give them an extra Wound. So having this Shield lets them potentially survive a 6-Damage attack. Not going to be worth using every game. But certainly worth losing a CP over if your opponent warrants it.

    Standard of the Emperor Ascendent; <Ancient>. The Astartes Banner ability gains +3". Because Astartes Banner targets models, not units, this extra 3" might matter, and quite a lot, in fact. Friendly <Chapter> units within 9" auto-pass Morale tests (not neccessary), and enemy models within 9" have -1 Leadership (also not neccessary). This Relic is fairly worthless.

    Teeth of Terra; [Chainsword]. An extremely strong weapon-Relic made all the more better because Chainswords are free. S5, AP-2 at 2 Damage a pop is baller, especially with +3 Attacks.

    Primarch's Wrath; [Boltgun] or [M-C Boltgun]. Turn a Boltgun into a Storm Bolter with an extra point of S, AP and D. Best use is on a Techmarine because then it's free on a BS2+ model. Captains and Lieutenants are stuck with M-C Boltguns are thus are paying 3 Points for it. Lame.

    The Burning Blade; [Power Sword] or [M-C Power Sword]. With Thunder Hammers costing 40 Points, and TBB costing a tenth of that (usually), this is the best weapon in the book. Teeth of Terra is much better against most Infantry models because of the +3 Attacks. But the higher Strength (7) and vastly superior AP (-5, lol) of the Burning Blade makes it a lot better at dropping single targets like Daemon Princes.

    Purgatorus; [Bolt Pistol] or [Heavy Bolt Pistol]. Relic Pistols are automatically bad. The only almost good ones are the ones that can target <Characters>, which this...Can't. So, why even bring it up. Who cares? Next.

    Reliquary of Gathalamor; <Primaris>. Enemy Psykers within 18" take -1 to Psychic Tests, and, if said models within range fail a Psychic Test, they take D3 Mortal Wounds on a 4+. This is not a Perils of the Warp, so Craftworlds' Ghosthelms don't work against it. In a lot of metas this is an auto-include to take on a Phobos Librarian, who combines it with a Psychic Hood for -1 and +1 for a net total of +2. Also, this turns 11s into 10s. So Smites are also slightly less effective if your opponent rides on that strategy. So...Yeah. An extremely useful Relic for a lot of people. But, if that's not your meta, then take something else.

    Belicos Bolt Rifle; [M-C Auto Bolt Rifle]. Assault 4 lets your Primaris Captain move around the board. But why are you running a Primaris Captain?

    Lament; [M-C Stalker Bolt Rifle]. The ****? Just take a Phobos Captain and don't waste your Relic slot. This thing can't even target <Characters> so what the Hell is the point of it? That being said, it does a Mortal Wound every time it rolls to wound. That's...Okay. But a Phobos Captain is Just Better, and has an Assault weapon, not a Heavy one, and so moves around the board sniping Characters. The only difference between this and a Phobos Captain is that Lament has S5, and that's really good. But a Phobos Captain has a lot more going on than a gun. Just...Don't take this.

    Ghostweave Cloak; <Phobos> model with Camo Cloak. Your opponent has -1 to wound vs. this model. -1 to wound is exceptionally strong. But, not really on any of the models that could potentially take this.

    Tome of Malcador; <Librarian>. Gain an additional Power from a Discipline you have access to. This Relic is a lot stronger when you start looking at Supplements with better Power sets. The ones in the core Codex aren't worth taking a Relic over.

    Benediction of Fury; <Chaplain>. The best weapon in the entire book - including The Burning Blade. However, this is made up for by the fact that Chaplains have less natural attacks than a Captain, and don't normally re-roll 1s to hit. While Litany of Hate is a Thing That Exists, it only happens on a 3+ and there's a chance you might not use it because you're using another Litany. But, at the end of the day, this is certainly a Relic you can build a model around. But you could also do the same thing with a Captain and Burning Blade and do...Better.

    The Honour Vehement; <Chapter> models within 6" lose Shock Assault. But, instead, gain +1 Attack, all the time. This Relic certainly has value is your models are likely to end up in protracted Melees. But, remember that you play Space Marines. So if you go for a turn of combat, and your opponent's unit isn't dead...Why don't you just Fall Back and have your army shoot them with a lot of shots?

    The Vox Espiritum; <Primaris>. Add +3" to aura abilities to a maximum of 9". This allows you to have a bigger castle than you normally would. Remember than on an Ancient, Emperor Ascendant would do exactly what this does, except also more.
    Due to the omission of '...on its Datasheet', there is some contention of whether or not Warlord Traits (e.g; Master of the Vanguard) count as Abilities... They don't.


    Spoiler: Disciplines and Litanies
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    Librarius Discipline
    Veil of Time (6); 18". Friendly <Chapter> unit gains re-rolls to Advance and Charge, and gains Always Fight First. The good range and easy WC value makes this a very strong Power. The real problem is finding a decent Melee unit in this book that would need this...

    Might of Heroes (6); 12". Friendly <Chapter> model gains +1S, +1T and +1A. This Power is very strong since you can manifest it on Vehicles (i.e; T9 Land Raiders). It can also be used to boost your Melee Characters to give you a Burning Blade that hits like a truck.

    Null Zone (7); 6". Enemy models within range lose their Invulnerables and halve the value of their Psychic Tests. WC7 makes it slightly difficult to cast, and its short range makes it a pain in the arse to use properly. A very niche Power.

    Psychic Scourge (6); 18". Targetable Smite that requires a Leadership roll-off. A decent second Power you can always pick up if you can't think of anything better. Remember that there are ways to give your Librarians extra Leadership to make sure this works. A targetable Smite is really good when you can get it to work.

    Fury of the Ancients (7); 12". Draw a line between your Psyker and the target. Each unit under the line takes a single Mortal Wound. Just...No.

    Psychic Fortress (5); 18". Target <Adeptus Astartes> unit auto-passes Morale tests and gains Ignore Mortal Wounds (4+) in the Psychic phase, until your next Psychic phase. The other good 'second Power' in the book.
    Unlike Stratagems, this Power can be manifested on units that aren't in this Codex.

    inb4; The first Power you're picking should almost always be Veil of Time or Might of Heroes.

    Obscuration Discipline
    Shrouding (6); 18". Target <Chapter Phobos> unit can only be shot at if they're the closest unit. Not great, unless you're desperately trying to protect your Eliminators. Your Incursors and Infiltrators are already going to be the closest unit.

    Soul Sight (6); 18" Target <Chapter Phobos> unit gains re-rolls to hit, and Ignore Cover, until next Psychic phase. So you can re-roll all your Overwatch if your opponent charges you. Pretty decent.

    Mind Raid (6); 18". Target model takes a Mortal Wound. Just takes it. Boom. If the model you targeted (this is not a Shooting attack) is a <Character>, roll 3d6 vs. their Leadership. If you're equal or better, gain a CP. lol. Very good. The range isn't even terrible either.

    Hallucination (6); 18". Target unit takes -1 Leadership, then rolls 2d6 vs. their Leadership. If the roll is greater only, they have -1 to hit until your Psychic phase.

    Tenebrous Curse (6); 18". Target unit that doesn't <Fly>, takes a Mortal Wound, and then halves their Movement, and their Advance and Charge rolls. Very strong Power. Good WC value, good range, and a very strong debuff.

    Temporal Corridor (7); 3". Target <Chapter Phobos> unit immediately takes a movement. Additionally, they must Advance, albeit with 3d6 and picking the highest. A very strong Power, even if the unit you target doesn't have Assault weapons.

    Litanies of Battle
    Litany of Hate; <Chapter> units within 6" gain re-rolls to hit with Melee weapons. Good if you need it.

    Litany of Faith; 6". Target <Chapter> unit gains Ignore Mortal Wounds (5+).
    You can still cast Psychic Fortress - or use Shield Eternal - on the same unit, gain a 4+ vs. Psychic phase Wounds, and then a 5+ in every other phase.

    Catechism of Fire; 6". Target <Chapter> unit gains +1 to wound with ranged weapons against the closest enemy unit. This can be broken, or extremely garbage. Depends if your opponent knows how to screen. And they should. Because your opponent isn't made out of straw.

    Exhortation of Rage; 6". Target <Chapter> unit gain additional attacks (not hits) on 6s to hit with Melee weapons. Litany of Hate is straight up better. But, if you're hanging out with a Captain/Chapter Master as well, Litany of Hate isn't going to do anything, and that's where this comes in.

    Mantra of Strength; Gain +1S, +1A and +1 Damage to all Melee weapons. Go, go Benediction of Fury! But this will mean you aren't re-rolling to hit. So make sure your Chaplain is hanging with a Captain for re-roll 1s.

    Recitation of Focus; 6". Target <Chapter> unit gains +1 to hit with ranged weapons. Not bad.

    Canticle of Hate; <Chapter> units within 6" gain +2 to Charge and can Pile-In and Consolidate 6". Very strong.


    Spoiler: Wargear
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    Combi-Weapons
    • -Plasma; For a really bad reason, a Combi-Grav is more expensive than a Combi-Plasma. So, that's game. If you want a 'good against everything', you pick up a Combi-Plasma.
    • -Melta; For when you're coming out of Reinforcements.
    • Storm Bolter; This is actually your bread and butter. 2 Points, 4 shots. At the lower end, it's better than a Combi-Plasma, and at the higher end, you should be using dedicated anti-Big Model weapons.

    Dreadnought Weapons
    • Assault Cannon; Good against everything.
    • Twin Lascannon; Use 'em if you want.
    • Missile Launcher; Replacing the Dreadnought Combat Weapon for a really simple reason. Dreadnoughts are too slow. The DCW and Storm Bolter is 22 Points, and the Missile Launcher is only 20.

    Heavy Weapons
    • Grav-Cannon and Grav Amp; The 'good against everything' weapon at a reasonable cost with a lot of shots. The more Grav-Cannons you have in your unit (e.g; Devastators), the better, because Grav-Cannon effectiveness spikes massively with the addition of Gravitic Amplification.
    • Heavy Bolter; One of the best weapons in the book. Coming in at only 10 Points with 3 decent shots makes it a solid weapon for when you're outnumbered at least 2:1 (which is going to be all the time). Against Big Stuff, you have access to Hellfire Shells for a CP, to make a Heavy Bolter effective against pretty much anything. Your army should always include at least one <Infantry> unit with at least one Heavy Bolter... That is, if you have the CPs to spare. Additionally, if you're leaning hard into Space Marines, and you have access to Combat Doctrines, Devastator will have your Heavy Bolters at -2 from Turn 1 - and that's baller.
    • Lascannon; Solid anti-Big Stuff. Wounds almost everything in the game on 3s and does D6 Damage.
    • Missile Launcher; Take a Heavy Bolter instead. That being said, for the same reason as Hellfire Shells, having an <Infantry> unit in your army with a Missile Launcher is always helpful because Flakk Missile does Mortal Wounds to units with <Fly> at +1 to hit.

    Melee Weapons
    • Chainsword; Take on every model possible.
    • Chainswords (Pair); This isn't advised. But, it is useful when you want to keep your model cheap, but still maximise its Melee potential.
    • Lightning Claw/Power Axe; These two are roughly even. But Power Axes cost 1 Point less and are better against higher Toughness models.
    • Lightning Claws (Pair); When your Melee model doesn't have access to a Storm Shield, but you have the points to not run double Chainswords.
    • Power Fist (Characters); Thunder Hammers are 40 Points. Jesus.
    • Thunder Hammer (Characters); Good idea for one model that you expect to rock face. For a Warlord with a Trait that gives extra Attacks, or maybe someone who you intend to Fight twice. However, Warlord Traits and Stratagems can't be spammed. So all your other Characters should run Power Fists...Except not really. Keep reading.
    • Thunder Hammer (Other models); If your unit is a Melee unit, your Sergeant should take a Thunder Hammer. Every unit that has a reasonable chance on making it to Melee on Turn 1, or Turn 2, should be running as many Thunder Hammers as possible.
    • Teeth of Terra; The second-best weapon in the book, and it's free. A ****-ton of S5, AP-2, 2D attacks for free is amazing.
    • The Burning Blade; The best weapon in the book, and it's only 4 Points. Unfortunately it takes your Relic slot.

    Pistols
    • Ignore all of them. Even the Relic.

    Special Weapons
    • Grav-Gun; This is the go-to against most things. 1 Point cheaper than a Plasma Gun and kills stuff good. Unfortunately, it is reliant on your opponent's multi-wound models having a 3+ Armour save, which means that they struggle against Big Stuff with a 4+ save (e.g; Tyranids) that S5 doesn't wound as good.
    • Plasma Gun; Supercharge for 2 Damage makes it better than a Grav-Gun against...Everything. However, they are 1 Point each more expensive that a Grav-Gun, and are risky to use without a <Captain> nearby.


    In case you're confused:
    • Combi-Plasma > Combi-Grav
    • Plasma Gun = Grav-Gun
    • Plasma Cannon < Grav-Cannon and Grav Amp
    • If you must equip your models with anything because Paired Chainswords feels...Wrong...Most <Characters> will do just fine with Storm Bolter & Power Axe loadout. Unit Sergeants want to be equipped with whatever helps their unit do what it's already doing.


    Link to Part 2
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-09-13 at 08:56 AM.
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  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    You forgot that White Scars get Advance and Charge in addition to Fall Back and Charge.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Duty Eternal is insane and broken. Because as far as I can tell, it works on Forge World Dreadnaughts. Have fun killing a Leviathan and/or a Contemptor when it's taking half damage pretty much all the time.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Duty Eternal is insane and broken. Because as far as I can tell, it works on Forge World Dreadnaughts. Have fun killing a Leviathan and/or a Contemptor when it's taking half damage pretty much all the time.
    Always be in Cover when 12<" away.
    Always use top row of Damage table.
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