Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

[Cheesegear]

AM psykers are pretty worthless though

Well yeah. But there are no other options, and I'm actually more afraid of Thousand Sons Supreme Commands that I am of Talos Engines & Skyweavers. My meta being my meta and not yours, and all. Mortal Wound spam is very real, and more Psykers in the list can prevent some of it. I also know for a fact that at least two people are bringing 3 Knights.

How many things are AP-5?

I forget who did it, and my Search-fu is bad, but I definitely recall somebody on this forum making a list.

[JNAProductions]

Well yeah. But there are no other options, and I'm actually more afraid of Thousand Sons Supreme Commands that I am of Talos Engines & Skyweavers. My meta being my meta and not yours, and all. Mortal Wound spam is very real, and more Psykers in the list can prevent some of it. I also know for a fact that at least two people are bringing 3 Knights.

I forget who did it, and my Search-fu is bad, but I definitely recall somebody on this forum making a list.

I did-well, I made it on Dakka Dakka. But here:

AP-5
Volcano Lance (Knight Castellan)
Volcano Cannon (Shadowsword)
High Power Doomsday Cannon (Doomsday Ark)
Tachyon Arrow (Anrakyr the Traveler)
Deathray [If Mephrit in half range] (Doomscythe)
Heavy Gauss Cannon [If Mephrit in half range] (Heavy Destroyer)
Fusion Blasters [With Advanced Targeting System] (XV25 Stealth Suits, XV8 Crisis Suits)
Heavy Rail Rifle [With Advanced Targeting System] (XV88 Broadsides)
Grav Flux Bombard (Hellforged Leviathans, Relic Leviathans)
Lance Prism Cannon (Fire Prism)
The Red Axe (Mars Power Axe Relic)
Shokk Attack Gun (Big Meks)
Bubblechukas [AP-1d6] (Mek Guns)
Mega Choppa (Stompa)
Killsaw [Proppa Killy Warlord, on the charge/being charge/Heroically Intervened only] (Warboss)
Heat Lance (Scourges, Talos Pain Engine, Reaver Jetbikes)
Mori Quake Cannon (Warlord Battle Titan)
Reaver Volcanno Cannon (Reaver Battle Titan)
Saturnyne Lascutter [Melee] (Warlord Battle Titan)
Arioch Titan Power Claw (Warlord Battle Titan)
Reaver Chainfist (Reaver Battle Titan)
Reaver Power Fist (Reaver Battle Titan)
Dreadhammer Siege Cannon (Relic Typhon Heavy Siege Tank)
Laser volley cannon [Overcharge fire] (Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer)
Ghost Razors (Lugft Huron)
Monstrous Scything Talons (Hierophant Bio-Titan)
Mega Klaw (Kustom Stompa)
Heavy rail cannon (KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour, Tiger Shark AX-1-0, Manta Super-Heavy Dropship)
D-Impaler (Cobra)
Dire Pulsar (Phantom Titan)
D-Bombard (Phantom Titan)
Wraith Glaive (Phantom Titan)
Blade Of Shadows (Be'Lakor)
Acid Maw (Carnifex)
Nemesis Quake Cannon (Warbringer)
Twin Volcano Cannon (Hellforged Falchion)
Burning Blade (Space Marine Power Sword Relic)
Plasma Incinerators [With Storm Of Fire, On 6s To-Wound] (Hellblasters)
Macro Plasma Incinerator [With Storm Of Fire, On 6s To-Wound] (Redemptor Dreadnought)
Melta Weapons [With Storm Of Fire, On 6s To-Wound] (Many Marine Units)
Malice [With Storm Of Fire, On 6s To-Wound] (Lias Issodon)
Metallophagic Stave (Rusted Claw Force Staff Relic)
Thermal Cannon [On 6s To-Wound, With Knight Of Mars Warlord Trait] (Taranis Knight Errant)

AP-6
Monstrous Rending Claws [On 6s to wound] (Patriarch, Broodlord)
High Power Doomsday Cannon [If Mephrit in half range] (Doomscythe)
Bubblechukas [AP-1d6] (Mek Guns)
Thundercoil Harpoon (Knight Valiant)
Belicosa Volcano Cannon (Warlord Battle Titan)
Malignas Beam Cannon (Hellforged Contemptor)

AP-7
Thundercoil Harpoon [On 6s To-Wound, With Knight Of Mars Warlord Trait] (Taranis Knight Valiant)

AP Infinity-Ignores Armor, but not Invulnerables
Life Drain [Melee Attacks] (Culexus)

The answer is: A lot. But very few see play in any great amount.

[Cheesegear]

A lot. But very few see play in any great amount.

Okay, 'AP-5 - or better - that actually sees play on the board'...

Volcano Lance (Knight Castellan)
Volcano Cannon (Shadowsword)
High Power Doomsday Cannon (Doomsday Ark)
Lance Prism Cannon (Fire Prism)
Shokk Attack Gun (Big Meks)
Burning Blade (Space Marine Power Sword Relic) I imagine this list was compiled before 8.5 Codex, but with the extra Damage, and Thunder Hammers being 40 Points, this is legit.
Plasma Incinerators [With Storm Of Fire, On 6s To-Wound] (Hellblasters) While not neccessary, Hellblasters with Storm of Fire are usually an accident.

Monstrous Rending Claws [On 6s to wound] (Patriarch, Broodlord)
Thundercoil Harpoon (Knight Valiant)

Life Drain [Melee Attacks] (Culexus)

[JNAProductions]

With the Fire Prism, it's usually shot in the middle mode, not the highest AP mode. So not sure that counts.

[Cheesegear]

With the Fire Prism, it's usually shot in the middle mode, not the highest AP mode. So not sure that counts.

Of course it does. Fire Prisms are routinely put on tables as an alternative to Dark Reapers.
The reason it's 'usually' shot in the middle mode is because the number of times where S9, AP-4 wont do the job, I can count on one hand.
However, if the situation being rolled for is "Hey, there's a Titanic with a 2+ save." the fact that Fire Prisms have choices is what makes them a competitive unit and not trash.

[JNAProductions]

Of course it does. Fire Prisms are routinely put on tables as an alternative to Dark Reapers.
The reason it's 'usually' shot in the middle mode is because the number of times where S9, AP-4 wont do the job, I can count on one hand.
However, if the situation being rolled for is "Hey, there's a Titanic with a 2+ save." the fact that Fire Prisms have choices is what makes them a competitive unit and not trash.

Right... But 2 shots (average) at S9 AP-4 Dd3 do (assuming they hit on a 4+ due to Nightshroud)...

2 shots
1 hit
2/3 wounds
10/18 or 5/9 failed saves
10/9 damage

Whereas 1 shot at S12 AP-5 Dd6 does...

1 shot
1/2 hits
2/6 or 1/3 wounds
1/3 failed saves
3.5/3 or 7/6 damage

Which is actually slightly better. Okay, huh, that's my bad. I thought the middle profile was always better, not just ALMOST always better.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Doomsday Ark and Doomscythe should also go on the list of "AP-5 that you actually see on the board", considering Necron tournament lists (yes they do exist and don't always suck) currently are 3 of each.

[LansXero]

Right... But 2 shots (average) at S9 AP-4 Dd3 do (assuming they hit on a 4+ due to Nightshroud)...

2 shots
1 hit
2/3 wounds
10/18 or 5/9 failed saves
10/9 damage

Whereas 1 shot at S12 AP-5 Dd6 does...

1 shot
1/2 hits
2/6 or 1/3 wounds
1/3 failed saves
3.5/3 or 7/6 damage

Which is actually slightly better. Okay, huh, that's my bad. I thought the middle profile was always better, not just ALMOST always better.

Prisms also have grinding advance, so its twice over.

[JNAProductions]

Prisms also have grinding advance, so its twice over.

Irrelevant to what I was figuring out, since it's all relative. Because, unless they FAQ'd something, ALL modes get the double-tap, not just one mode.

[Renegade Paladin]

Another tournament list that I'm workshopping, surprised I'm pretty close to actually having...

Tournament will be New!Maelstrom, so Objective-grabbing is barely a concern.

Don't happen to have the tournament pack, do you? I'm trying to use those rules for a mission in my upcoming one, but I don't have the White Dwarf so I'm working from the reviews on Goonhammer trying to reconstruct what the mission actually is.

[LansXero]

Irrelevant to what I was figuring out, since it's all relative. Because, unless they FAQ'd something, ALL modes get the double-tap, not just one mode.

when dealing with fractional averages and limited HP / damage brackets its not irrelevant. My point was also that you dont even need to blow up AM vehicles to render them irrelevant. 4 plasma shots dont kill a Leman Russ, but hitting on 5s is good enough. If there is a -1 aura (like a Darkshroud's) then it might as well be dead, for all the impact it'll have.

[JNAProductions]

It would be relevant if I was figuring that out.

I was not-I just wanted to see which shot was better.

[Renegade Paladin]

when dealing with fractional averages and limited HP / damage brackets its not irrelevant. My point was also that you dont even need to blow up AM vehicles to render them irrelevant. 4 plasma shots dont kill a Leman Russ, but hitting on 5s is good enough. If there is a -1 aura (like a Darkshroud's) then it might as well be dead, for all the impact it'll have.

Four supercharged plasma shots on average aren't going to bracket it either. :P Assuming you mean four hits, they'll only actually wound 50% of the time and it still gets a 6+ save. You need to do at least six wounds to degrade the vehicle, assuming it's not Valhallan.

[LansXero]

Four supercharged plasma shots on average aren't going to bracket it either. :P Assuming you mean four hits, they'll only actually wound 50% of the time and it still gets a 6+ save. You need to do at least six wounds to degrade the vehicle, assuming it's not Valhallan.

Most of the time it wont be valhallan, and Valhallan doesnt get re-roll # of shots or +1 to hit once 1 damage gets through, so it has its own set of issues. But I meant 4 unsaved wounds, since saving in 6s is unlikely and there are -4 plasma weapons.

[Cheesegear]

Don't happen to have the tournament pack, do you?

Pre-tournament: Choose a deck of 18 Cards. That's your deck. I expect a deck-list - just the numbers is fine.

Game:
Objectives placed as per Diagram.
(...It's ITC's Seize Ground)

First Battle Round: Both players draw 5 cards (your Hand). If a player doesn't like their cards, Objectives are placed on the bottom of the deck in any order the player chooses. Redraw 4 cards. Hands are always kept hidden from the opponent.

Start of Turn:
1. Player puts three Objectives into Play. Up to one Objective per turn, may be in Play, face down.
2. Player draws Objectives until their Hand has 5 cards in it.

End of Turn:
3. Only Objectives in Play can be Scored - you cannot choose to not Score an Objective.
4. You may Discard any Objectives in Play.

Priority Orders; Choose an Objective from your Hand and combine it with POR.

Unachievable Objectives: If an Objective refers to a Keyword in your opponent's army that they don't have or is not on the battlefield, or a Keyword in your army you don't have or is not on the battlefield, you may discard it from your Hand at the end of turn.
If your Warlord has been destroyed, you may discard POR from your Hand at the end of turn.

Stratagems:
2CP: Start of Turn; Discard 2 Objectives from your Hand, Draw 2.
1CP: Use during a Turn (including your opponent's); Look at the Top 3 Objectives and place them back on top in any order. This Stratagem can only be used once per turn.
1CP: Use during a Turn (including your opponent's); Shuffle up to three cards from your Discard pile back into your deck. Once per turn.
(TO's Note: Remember that 'scored' Objectives are Discarded. Yes, you can Score the same Objective twice in a game.)

[LansXero]

Pre-tournament: Choose a deck of 18 Cards. That's your deck. I expect a deck-list - just the numbers is fine.

Thats SO IMPORTANT. Not just what you plan to achieve, but guessing correctly how many cards in your opponents deck you make unachievable. Also, 'soup' armies get to double / triple dip into some pretty easy faction objectives. Select Canticles at random? Thats 1 VP!. Make 3 orders? VP!. Your opponent fibs a psychic power? yeah, CP!.

Also, some models can fulfill 3 objectives all on their own. So plan for something like 'this knight gave me 1d3 for Big Game Hunter, 1d3 for Kingslayer and 1 VP for destroy and acquire'.

You can also achieve kingslayer again for d3 VPs at the game's end if you've been cycling agressively and the warlord is dead, as it doesnt care about when it died. So thats not nothing :D

Edit: Playing Eldar, Ive had good success with stacking the deck with just destroy objectives, plus supremacy which is trivial with Rangers. Ive tried with all Secures as well and depending on faction it can be good., Deckbuilding is its own minigame and I love the new Maelstrom format.

[Cheesegear]

Also, 'soup' armies get to double / triple dip into some pretty easy faction objectives.

...I don't think so?

Straight from the White Dwarf; "...chosen from the pool available to your army."
Aren't Faction Objectives only available to you based on your Warlord?

I can't see anything letting you choose fifteen different Faction Objectives.

I think a really good addition is the 'not on the battlefield'. So you have Scour the Skies, but your opponent's Blood Angel Captains are all in Reinforcements on Turn 1, free discard it from your Hand. As opposed to being forced to wait 'til Turn 2 for the Captains to come down because you can Score it, at some point (i.e; When your opponent lets you). Then, later in the game you can pick Scour the Skies back up.

That being said, I'm from a M;tG background, so I'm not going to let my opponent just shuffle their Discarded Objectives to the top of the deck.

I also like that you can mulligan at the start of the game. Which means that it's rare that you're gimped from the start.
I also like that you can Discard as many cards (from Play) as you want, not just one per turn.

[9mm]

Hey Cheese do you have a link to your striping guide handy?

[LansXero]

...I don't think so?

Straight from the White Dwarf; "...chosen from the pool available to your army."
Aren't Faction Objectives only available to you based on your Warlord?

Huh, I guess so. Although it does add a consideration beyond just traits / relics, as of which faction cards are easier to complete.

That being said, I'm from a M;tG background, so I'm not going to let my opponent just shuffle their Discarded Objectives to the top of the deck.

If they burn through properly they can put back whatever they need and then draw them.

[Cheesegear]

Hey Cheese do you have a link to your striping guide handy?

Striping? ...Uhh...Use Painter's/Masking Tape? I don't think I've ever made a striping guide. It's not something I do very often.
If you meant Stripping guide...Uhh...Can't help you there either. But I'm sure if you go 'round the internet you'll find someone to help you out with your sexy times.

Oh...Oh...Paint Stripping...

Yeah, man.

1. Lots of surface coverage. I use about half of my local newspaper. Four sets of multiple layers.
2. Hand protection. I use sandwich bags over my hands (they're cheaper than a box of gloves...)
3. Depending on size of model, I might use a plastic cup with cling wrap over the top, or a 1L ice-cream tub.
4. Make sure you have warm water and soap handy.

I stripped these models last week.

Spoiler: Stripped

Show

They were left in Dettol for Six hours, tops, and it's all gone except for some yellow in the deepest crevices.

If you've used a black undercoat...I dunno. Something about how the Primer works means you wont be able to strip black primer properly. Not sure why. But every single model that I've ever Primed in white has turned out exactly like the above picture. Every single model I've ever primed in Black has only ever been able to get down to the undercoat - albeit in the thinnest layer possible.

Spoiler: Unholy Abomination

Show

Whatever this unholy **** mix of paint and dettol is, it starts sticky and ends up hard. It will ruin whatever it dries on. Clean it up, fast. Soap and warm water prevents the stickiness, instead of you just wiping **** all over your counter and not cleaning anything.

In fact. I have some Guard models I need to do really soon. I'll put up some step-by-step photos.

Spoiler: This is it

Show

Endorsed by Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II. So you know it's legit.
They've even got a sword as a logo.

[Renegade Paladin]

Pre-tournament: Choose a deck of 18 Cards. That's your deck. I expect a deck-list - just the numbers is fine.

Game:
Objectives placed as per Diagram.
(...It's ITC's Seize Ground)

First Battle Round: Both players draw 5 cards (your Hand). If a player doesn't like their cards, Objectives are placed on the bottom of the deck in any order the player chooses. Redraw 4 cards. Hands are always kept hidden from the opponent.

Start of Turn:
1. Player puts three Objectives into Play. Up to one Objective per turn, may be in Play, face down.
2. Player draws Objectives until their Hand has 5 cards in it.

End of Turn:
3. Only Objectives in Play can be Scored - you cannot choose to not Score an Objective.
4. You may Discard any Objectives in Play.

Priority Orders; Choose an Objective from your Hand and combine it with POR.

Unachievable Objectives: If an Objective refers to a Keyword in your opponent's army that they don't have or is not on the battlefield, or a Keyword in your army you don't have or is not on the battlefield, you may discard it from your Hand at the end of turn.
If your Warlord has been destroyed, you may discard POR from your Hand at the end of turn.

Stratagems:
2CP: Start of Turn; Discard 2 Objectives from your Hand, Draw 2.
1CP: Use during a Turn (including your opponent's); Look at the Top 3 Objectives and place them back on top in any order. This Stratagem can only be used once per turn.
1CP: Use during a Turn (including your opponent's); Shuffle up to three cards from your Discard pile back into your deck. Once per turn.
(TO's Note: Remember that 'scored' Objectives are Discarded. Yes, you can Score the same Objective twice in a game.)

Thanks. This is how I had interpreted it:

Schemes of War

At the start of the first battle round, each player shuffles their objective deck and draws a hand of 5 cards. If either player is not happy with the initial cards they draw, they can choose to place them on the bottom of their Objective deck, in any order, and draw 4 new Tactical Objective cards.

A the start of your turn, place Tactical Objective cards from your hand in play until you have 3 in-play tactical objectives or there are no more cards left in your hand. A Tactical Objective is considered to be generated when it is put in play.

When putting a Tactical Objective in play, it is either placed face up or face down, until such point it is either achieved or discarded. You can only have one face down card in play at any point. You can only achieve in-play Tactical Objectives.

After you have finished putting any Tactical Objectives in play, draw Tactical Objective Cards until you have a hand of 5 cards.

When you discard a Tactical Objective, place it face up on the discard pile. Cards in the discard pile are not considered to be in play, and are not part of your Objective deck.

Achieving Tactical Objectives
At the end of every turn (yours and your opponent's), you must check to see if you have achieved any of your in-play Tactical Objectives. If you can achieve a Tactical Objective, you must do so immediately at the end of the turn and cannot choose not to do so.

After a Tactical Objective has been achieved, it is discarded. At the end of the morale phase, you may discard any of your in-play Tactical Objectives.

At the end of the morale phase, if a card is impossible to achieve (e.g. you have Big Game Hunter and your opponent has no viable units left on the table), you can discard it.

[Cheesegear]

if a card is impossible to achieve (e.g. you have Big Game Hunter and your opponent has no viable units left on the table)

I don't like the inclusion of the word 'left' in the sentence, it implies that there were viable units on the table, and now there aren't.

The way the rule is written, is 'no units on the table'. This opens up the possibility that there are viable units off the table, but, in armies (e.g; in Reinforcements), but you may still Discard the Objective for free anyway.

Also, Big Game Hunter is a separate example for free Discards, because it has no Keywords on it. The result is the same. But the reasoning for why it gets Discarded is not the same reason as, say, Scour the Skies:
0. You may discard as many in play Objectives as you want
1. If an Objective refers to Keywords, and there are no viable units in armies on the battlefield, free Discard from your Hand.
2. Big Game Hunter; If your opponent has no models with 10 or more wounds on the battlefield, free Discard from Hand.
3. Priority Orders Received; If your Warlord has been destroyed*, free Discard from Hand.

*This distinction is important, as with the others, like I said, being in Reinforcements allows for Discard. But not for POR.

[The Patterner]

Okay, 'AP-5 - or better - that actually sees play on the board'...

Volcano Lance (Knight Castellan)
Volcano Cannon (Shadowsword)
High Power Doomsday Cannon (Doomsday Ark)
Lance Prism Cannon (Fire Prism)
Shokk Attack Gun (Big Meks)
Burning Blade (Space Marine Power Sword Relic) I imagine this list was compiled before 8.5 Codex, but with the extra Damage, and Thunder Hammers being 40 Points, this is legit.
Plasma Incinerators [With Storm Of Fire, On 6s To-Wound] (Hellblasters) While not neccessary, Hellblasters with Storm of Fire are usually an accident.

Monstrous Rending Claws [On 6s to wound] (Patriarch, Broodlord)
Thundercoil Harpoon (Knight Valiant)

Life Drain [Melee Attacks] (Culexus)

Plasma incinerators and melta weaponjs if the right type of combat doctrine is active.

[9mm]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...on-and-shadow/

Iron Hands and Raven Guard are next, and more upgrade kits for me play with.

[Cheesegear]

Iron Hands and Raven Guard are next, and more upgrade kits for me play with.

Eliminators that nobody wants.
Phobos Lieutenants that definitely nobody wants.

Where are the Infiltrators/Incursors?

[9mm]

Eliminators that nobody wants.
Phobos Lieutenants that definitely nobody wants.

Where are the Infiltrators/Incursors?

hiding in Reiver boxes waiting for you to get dig up all the extra marine heads you have.

[Squark]

Eliminators that nobody wants.
Phobos Lieutenants that definitely nobody wants.

Where are the Infiltrators/Incursors?

And the following week? Suppressors and the other Phobos Lieutenant!

(Disclaimer: This is a joke. I take no responsibility if it comes true)

[Wraith]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...on-and-shadow/

Iron Hands and Raven Guard are next, and more upgrade kits for me play with.

Also known as the "oh ****, we accidentally placed a triple-order for black paint this week, what do we do?" release

I hate that Raven Guard upgrade kit. I do not like those silly, floppy haircuts in the slightest and I can't imagine why they outnumber the helmets 2-to-1, and having seen an actual raven I'm pretty sure that what is painted on those little heraldic shields are actually seagulls. A little variation in the other add-ons would have been nice too, rather just raven feathers, raven skulls, and raven skulls with raven feathers - dangerously close to Space Wolves level of obsession there, I feel.

[Squark]

...having seen an actual raven I'm pretty sure that what is painted on those little heraldic shields are actually seagulls.

Well, now we need a Seagull themed Chapter.

[Lord Torath]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...on-and-shadow/
Iron Hands and Raven Guard are next, and more upgrade kits for me play with.

Dang, what'd they do to that Land Raider?

Well, now we need a Seagull themed Chapter.

Mine! Mine! Mine! Mine! (Yer rats with wings!)