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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    I know, you should pick one or the other. However, this is going to be for a small group (3 PCs) and while I would really love to get the group some control action, I also don't want battles to take all day because I'm not contributing damage. Especially since I think the other two people are going to pick a defender and a leader.

    1) It's been awhile since I made a 4E D&D character greater than level 1. If I'm starting at level 15, what magic items should I have? Also, I heard Essentials changed the way Magical Item Dailies work, what's up with that.

    2) Again, since it's going to just be us 3, I'd like for my character to have a bit more durability than other wizards if the boards think it's necessary. I was thinking of going INT/CON and maybe even Staff of Defense.

    3) The idea I had in mind to switch-hit between control and damage was to grab the Fighter MC + Hindering Shield + World Serpent's Grasp combo. I may put some Mark of Storm action on that as well depending on what damage type I choose.

    4) What damage type should I choose? I don't know whether to go Lightning, Cold, or Fire. Fire seems to have the most feat support (but I'm pressed for feats) and would stack with Pyromancer. Frostcheese is Frostcheese. Lightning would synergize very well with Mark of Storm and Ring of the Radiant Storm (which seems to amount to an extra daily power if you deliberately miss with something persistent/sustainable).

    5) Is there any feat or magical item I'm missing that can give additional control? I'm looking for something that will layer onto all of my attacks, unless it's something like Vistani Heritage where it's a small investment. However, something that stacks directly with point 1 would be much appreciated.

    6) I'm torn between Mage and Arcanist. Mage has the obvious benefits, especially Pyromancy for blasting. However, Arcanist has Staff of Defense which might REALLY come in handy since I'm playing in such a small group. Also, I have a feeling that I'm going to be the only person in the group who's going to grab Ritual Caster.

    7) The two At-Wills I were thinking of grabbing were Winged Horde and Witch Bolt. I'll accept a substitute for Winged Horde like Howling Wall or BeguilingStrands. And, yes, really, Witch Bolt. See the next point why.

    8) Since I'm starting at level 15, I should have more than enough money to blow on low-level consumables, to the point where I can consider it a permanent magical item. I was thinking about using the Desert Rose Reagent with Witch Bolt to double-tap on damage every time I use it.

    9) Magical items in general? There's just SO MUCH STUFF to pick from.

    10) Feats in general? There's just SO MUCH STUFF to pick from.
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2019-08-29 at 09:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Caveat: Dimers is not a grade-A optimizer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    If I'm starting at level 15, what magic items should I have? Also, I heard Essentials changed the way Magical Item Dailies work, what's up with that.
    You get a level 16 magic item, a level 15, a level 14, and the amount of money that'd buy another level 15 (25000 gp). The money can go wherever you want. Item dailies are no longer limited per-day based on the character level; if you have thirty-three item dailies, you can use 'em all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Again, since it's going to just be us 3, I'd like for my character to have a bit more durability than other wizards if the boards think it's necessary. I was thinking of going INT/CON and maybe even Staff of Defense.
    If you happen to be trained in Heal, consider the level 2 utility herbal healing. It's nice by itself and can trigger lots of stuff, including a couple good tattoos that would also improve your durability or the party's. Warforged race can also help your durability while boosting Intelligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    What damage type should I choose? I don't know whether to go Lightning, Cold, or Fire. Fire seems to have the most feat support (but I'm pressed for feats) and would stack with Pyromancer. Frostcheese is Frostcheese. Lightning would synergize very well with Mark of Storm and Ring of the Radiant Storm (which seems to amount to an extra daily power if you deliberately miss with something persistent/sustainable).
    A mix would let you be better prepared for multiple situations. If you're playing a genasi, of course, the question is simpler. Absent other considerations, fire is the wizard's best damage option. Frostcheese isn't as applicable as one might hope, because the benefit only kicks in after the first attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Arcanist has Staff of Defense which might REALLY come in handy since I'm playing in such a small group.
    No vote of confidence for your defender, eh? Keeping in mind that you'll probably also face smaller groups of enemies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    The two At-Wills I were thinking of grabbing were Winged Horde and Witch Bolt. I'll accept a substitute for Winged Horde like Howling Wall or Beguiling Strands.
    If you do think your defender won't be competent or sufficient, be sure to get a few close or melee powers. Beast switch is the most intense control you'll find in the game for an unaugmentable AW power ... still probably not as valuable as beguiling strands or storm pillar, but certainly not bad in a small game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Since I'm starting at level 15, I should have more than enough money to blow on low-level consumables, to the point where I can consider it a permanent magical item. I was thinking about using the Desert Rose Reagent with Witch Bolt to double-tap on damage every time I use it.
    You can't expect to see many combat rounds where your target is still alive and has never left a 5-square radius of you. Even when that pans out, it's not great action economy to deal witch bolt's damage twice, particularly since the initial attack might miss and thereby sink the whole kaboodle.

    If you don't mind spending consumables, the four-sided caltrop is a minor action that slows in an area with no attack roll, and catastrophic dragon eggs can add large zones of control (and dinky damage, but still enough to wipe minions) that are relatively easy for a PC party to exploit for ... what's the phrase ... "force multipliers".
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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    You're going to be level 15, which means you have access to a variety of ways to change the damage type of your powers, which means you can benefit from all the goodies of an elemental specialization with minimal hindrance to your power selection. Wizards have a lot of good, strong control effects that also involve rolling damage dice. I recommend focusing on those powers. Let the damage come from your stacked static bonuses. If you really want to amp the striker feel, consider having an attack-strength Charisma in addition to your high Intelligence and multiclassing into Sorcerer for Flame Spiral and Demonskin Adept.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    tiornys: I can't multiclass into Sorcerer, unfortunately. I need the fighter multiclass for Hindering Shield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers
    You can't expect to see many combat rounds where your target is still alive and has never left a 5-square radius of you. Even when that pans out, it's not great action economy to deal witch bolt's damage twice, particularly since the initial attack might miss and thereby sink the whole kaboodle.
    That's what the Desert Rose is for. I don't have to sustain the power the following round, so I can spend my standard action when Witch Bolt triggers doing something else. The third round and on, I just don't sustain it. I'd either use another Witch Bolt + Desert Rose or do something else.

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    I know, you should pick one or the other.
    Not at all, splitting across multiple roles is very very good. The whole "don't do multiple roles" thing is good advice for new players, because it's more difficult to make a character who does multiple well, but it's by no means some inviolable law of charop.

    Anyway. The bread and butter blaster+controller wizard setup is a str/int genasi with a lightning weapon staff (so all your attacks are doing lightning damage) who takes stormsoul for promise of storm (giant damage buff as a minor action) elemental empowerment (+str to damage with lightning attacks) and elemental echo (attack and damage bonuses to arcane powers after you use promise of storm). From that point, just take a bunch of area bursts with damage rolls and good control effects (you don't care about the power's innate damage dealing capability, since you add all that yourself) and you're set. Just don't take single target powers or powers without damage rolls unless you have a really good reason, because targeting multiple people is how you make a good controller and dealing damage is how you make a good striker.

    From that point you can add basically whatever you like. Mark of storm is insane, hindering shield is good as an addon, you can pick whatever other feats and items look cool. Neither mage nor arcanist offers anything particularly interesting or useful for you, so probably pick arcanist for free ritual casting if you wanted to do that but it's not like you have a lot of feats you need to take so it doesn't matter much, if you want some mage feature then grab mage and have fun. You can go con/int if you really want, but you lose a stat to all your damage rolls and wizards have an unreasonable number of good defensive utilities anyway, so I'd generally recommend relying on those for durability instead. But it's not a big deal, the basic storm genasi blaster wizard setup is so good that you can do pretty much whatever you like with it and it'll work out.
    Last edited by Lanaya; 2019-08-30 at 12:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Agreed with the Storm Genasi blaster as an excellent example of the type of "control powers + stacking damage effects" idea I was talking about. The main thing that build is missing from a striker standpoint is nova ability in the form of encounter double/triple taps, but you can certainly get by without that. And to be clear, no, Witch Bolt + Desert Rose doesn't fill this niche. Yes, it can result in a double-tap, but it doesn't give you a the second hit right now, and that makes it worthless from a nova standpoint.

    Consider starting Dex and Wis of at least 12 so they hit 13 at paragon tier, giving you access to Dual Implement Spellcaster and Enlarge Spell respectively. An nice +control feat for Winged Horde and miscellaneous other powers is Psychic Lock, although I don't remember if a Psychic power loses that keyword if you change the damage type so check on that first. Assuming you specialize in an element, be sure to grab the corresponding better-than-Implement-Focus-feat, e.g. Lightning Soul for Lightning damage.

    Good plus damage items include a dragonshard of your chosen element type (e.g. Ebberon Shard of Lightning)--or the Siberys Shard of the Mage if you somehow choose to avoid element optimization--and Resplendent Gloves to boost any Will-targeting spells (most of your good choices will target Will).
    Last edited by tiornys; 2019-08-30 at 12:52 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    tiornys: According to page 115 of the Rules Compendium, only the poison keyword lets you keep the keyword if the power no longer does any type of the associated damage.

    As far as nova-ing goes: That is indeed a downfall of powers that make their money through the Sustain. Still, against monsters who aren't going down in one round even if you Nova them (like Elites and Solos), in your opinion are such options still worth it? I mean, if a monster is going to go down in one or two rounds having to spread out your damage over several rounds is a hindrance. But if a monster isn't going to go down in 4-5 rounds, it's less of an advantage. What do you think?

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    1) Yep. PHB-4E lets you buy whatever items you want, but limits item daily uses. HOFL-4E doesn't limit item daily uses, but doens't let you pick your own items at all, ever. If you've got a DM who doesn't have daily uses and still lets you buy whatever items you want, consider yourself lucky.

    2) Not necessary. With int to AC and the Shield spell, there's nothing wrong with wizard defense.

    3) Sure, why not?

    4) The easiest answer is to take Elemental Empowerment (genasi feat) so you don't have to pick one element. Going fire-only is not as good as it seems.

    5) Orb of Inescapable Consequences and Orb of Heightened Imposition say hi.

    6) Arcanist has better control, mage has better damage. Take your pick. Ritual caster sucks, don't worry about that.

    7) You need a forced movement at-will, meaning either Beguiling Strands or Thunderwave. Generally speaking, any area-effect wizard power is better than every single-target wizard power.

    8) Nice in theory, but your daily/encounter powers are so very much better than your at-wills that using witch bolt in this way just isn't worth the trouble.

    9) Orb of Inescapable Consequences and Orb of Heightened Imposition say hi.

    10) Enlarge Spell. Take it, use it all the time, and don't look back.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    tiornys: According to page 115 of the Rules Compendium, only the poison keyword lets you keep the keyword if the power no longer does any type of the associated damage.

    As far as nova-ing goes: That is indeed a downfall of powers that make their money through the Sustain. Still, against monsters who aren't going down in one round even if you Nova them (like Elites and Solos), in your opinion are such options still worth it? I mean, if a monster is going to go down in one or two rounds having to spread out your damage over several rounds is a hindrance. But if a monster isn't going to go down in 4-5 rounds, it's less of an advantage. What do you think?
    Ok, so Psychic Lock becomes significantly less valuable, since you'd have to choose between applying the extra penalty or dealing the high damage you're investing in.

    The point of a nova is the rapid application of the ultimate control status to the best available target. In other words, take the most dangerous thing that you can kill in a round--typically a leader, controller, or artillery type, especially if an Elite, but probably not a solo--and render it Dead. If you don't get it to Dead, your nova has failed and your dangerous target is going to get a round to do dangerous things, and your party is still going to have to spend another turn on actually killing it. This is arguably worse than if you hadn't tried to nova in the first place, because in that case you would have done something more useful than trying and failing to neutralize a threat--as a controller, that probably means applying some lesser control status than Dead to make whatever that enemy might do less effective and less dangerous.

    In other words, invest enough into your nova that you have a good chance of successfully pulling it off, or don't invest into a nova and spend your resources on other helpful things like added control, personal resilience, round-to-round DPR, etc. Don't half-ass a nova. It takes far less investment to kill something in two rounds than in one.

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    4) The easiest answer is to take Elemental Empowerment (genasi feat) so you don't have to pick one element. Going fire-only is not as good as it seems.
    Best option is to take Lightning, Elemental Empowerment, Lightning Soul, and a lightning staff, since that lets all of your powers add stat, and feat bonus, and Promise of Storm's 2d8.


    6) Arcanist has better control, mage has better damage. Take your pick. Ritual caster sucks, don't worry about that.
    If by "sucks" you mean "is one of the most narratively powerful options in the game and no party should be without one" then I can agree with your general sentiment

    7) You need a forced movement at-will, meaning either Beguiling Strands or Thunderwave. Generally speaking, any area-effect wizard power is better than every single-target wizard power.
    A forced movement at will is a luxury, not a requirement. I usually end up running Winged Horde and either Strands or Freezing Burst.

    Generally speaking, I'm here to echo what Lanaya said. Grab a lightning weapon, play a genasi, and take powers with rolled damage and good control effects. Dark Gathering might just be the most versatile wizard encounter printed. Area Burst 2 is pretty sizable for an encounter, damage is rolled so you can add strong statics and other boosters like Promise of Storm, Daze is a solid condition, blinding enemies in the middle is great, and it makes a big old zone of obscurement even if you miss. Plus, as an encounter power with a damage roll, you can enlarge it.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    4) The easiest answer is to take Elemental Empowerment (genasi feat) so you don't have to pick one element. Going fire-only is not as good as it seems.
    Going mono-element by taking only powers that natively deal that type can be a risk, but doing it via conversion weapon is pretty much risk-free. Take a bunch of stuff that boosts your favourite damage type, reap the rewards and blow up a whole lot of monsters, then if your ice mage finds themself facing a bunch of frost giants, switch off that frost weapon and go back to dealing whatever assorted damage types your powers did natively. Yeah, it means that some of your feats and items are switched off for a small percentage of fights (if it's a large percentage of fights you have important things to discuss with your DM), but it's still very much worth the investment for the rest of them.
    Last edited by Lanaya; 2019-08-30 at 02:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanaya View Post
    Going mono-element by taking only powers that natively deal that type can be a risk, but doing it via conversion weapon is pretty much risk-free.
    Absolutely, but you miss out on Staff of Ruin.
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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    For a controller/blaster I'd have recommended skipping on elemental specialization and going with Staff of Ruin and mostly Will targeting with an emphasis but not focus on Psychic. But for a blaster/controller I think the elemental specialization is worth it.

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    You could do something like this.

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    ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
    level 15
    Genasi, Wizard, Malec-Keth Janissary
    Arcane Implement Mastery: Staff of Defense
    Devshirme Training: Gain an additional two languages
    Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
    Elemental Manifestation: Stormsoul
    Arcane Admixture Power: Winged Horde
    Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 22, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 22, Wis 13, Cha 9.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 16, Con 10, Dex 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8.


    AC: 31 Fort: 27 Reflex: 27 Will: 24
    HP: 88 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 22

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Arcana +18, Religion +18, Nature +15, History +18

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Acrobatics +8, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +9, Heal +8, Insight +8, Intimidate +6, Perception +8, Stealth +8, Streetwise +6, Thievery +8, Athletics +13

    FEATS
    Wizard: Ritual Caster
    Level 1: Staff Expertise
    Level 2: Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)
    Level 4: Unarmored Agility
    Level 6: Elemental Empowerment
    Level 8: Elemental Echo
    Level 10: Blade Initiate
    Level 11: Arcane Admixture
    Level 12: Enlarge Spell
    Level 14: Dual Implement Spellcaster

    POWERS
    Arcanist Cantrips: Chameleon's Mask
    Arcanist Cantrips: Light
    Arcanist Cantrips: Mage Hand
    Arcanist Cantrips: Suggestion
    Primordial Adept Starting Feature: Vezzuvu's Eruption
    Wizard at-will 1: Arc Lightning
    Wizard at-will 1: Winged Horde
    Wizard encounter 1: Burning Hands
    Wizard daily 1: Flaming Sphere
    Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Sleep
    Wizard utility 2: Shield
    Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Memory to Mist
    Wizard encounter 3: Maze of Mirrors
    Wizard daily 5: Visions of Avarice
    Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Scattering Shock
    Wizard utility 6: Dimension Door
    Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Invisibility
    Wizard encounter 7: Twist of Space
    Wizard daily 9: Melf's Minute Meteors
    Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Mirage Arcana
    Wizard utility 10: Illusory Wall
    Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Tactician's Measure
    Wizard encounter 13: Mesmeric Hold (replaces Burning Hands)
    Wizard daily 15: Slumber of the Winter Court (replaces Flaming Sphere)
    Wizard daily 15 Spellbook: Ball Lightning

    ITEMS
    Spellbook, Accurate staff of Ruin +3, Siberys Shard of the Mage (paragon tier), Cloak of Distortion +3, Magic Githweave Armor +4, Rhythm Blade Dagger +2
    ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======



    At level 16 you would retrain Arcane Admixture to Resounding Thunder, as your paragon path would be adding 1d4 thunder damage (and keyword) to all of your powers.

    Don't forget your rituals...

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    That's what the Desert Rose is for. I don't have to sustain the power the following round, so I can spend my standard action when Witch Bolt triggers doing something else. The third round and on, I just don't sustain it. I'd either use another Witch Bolt + Desert Rose or do something else.
    The opinion I was trying to convey is that even if you get two damage instances with one standard action, witch bolt still won't be a good use of your time. It's not great damage, it's easy for many enemies to turn into poor damage (by moving away momentarily), and it's basically zero control.
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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    That's what the Desert Rose is for. I don't have to sustain the power the following round, so I can spend my standard action when Witch Bolt triggers doing something else. The third round and on, I just don't sustain it. I'd either use another Witch Bolt + Desert Rose or do something else.
    At level 15, you have four encounter powers and combat will usually be over in three rounds, so if you're using at-will powers at all (as a wizard, at that level) you should rethink your tactics. The sole exception is mass forced movement to push enemies off a cliff or something.
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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    At-wills are also for minion clearing. My Fighter|Wizard last night spent most of the encounter using Freezing Burst to pick off flying skirmisher minions that our melees couldn't reach while my Ball Lightning zipped around helping fight the actual threats.
    Last edited by Keledrath; 2019-09-01 at 06:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    At-wills are also for minion clearing.
    So are encounter powers: almost all good wizard powers are area effects.
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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Is the Prophetic Preparation feat really as nuts as it seems? So if I'm a wizard with the Spellbook feature, I can swap out a level 9 daily for a level 29 one in my spellbook so long as I didn't prepare the level 29 one that day. Same for the utility spell. I can swap out Shield for Time Stop? I must be missing something.

    The Vistani heritage feats just seem really powerful in general. Vistani Foresight? An extra action point each day for free -- and because I'm a 21st-level wizard, that means an extra daily attack power? Even the base power, Evil Eye of the Vistani, is pretty much that Free Real Estate meme.

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Well, I don't see anything in the feat that would break the general rule of what spells you can prepare, just that you can swap a prepared one for an unprepared one. Assuming that, if you for some reason prepared a level 9 daily in your level 29 daily slot, I suppose nothing would stop you from using the feat to swap to a higher level power. Generally I'd expect the main use to be in swapping to same level powers, although you could certainly have a case where a lower level one is more generally applicable and thus is what you prepare normally, using the feat to swap to more niche picks that just so happen to be a higher level (that you don't already have a power prepared from).

    There's a lot of cool stuff in the Vistani feats, but multiple feats is a pretty heavy opportunity cost, too. I think the power levels are pretty fair.

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    Is the Prophetic Preparation feat really as nuts as it seems? So if I'm a wizard with the Spellbook feature, I can swap out a level 9 daily for a level 29 one in my spellbook so long as I didn't prepare the level 29 one that day. Same for the utility spell. I can swap out Shield for Time Stop? I must be missing something.
    The main limitation comes from the Arcanist's Spellbook feature itself. You only get *2* daily/utility powers of each level and, if/when you replace a power via retraining or gaining a level, the previous power vanishes. As such, you're not going to have a 3.X wizard spellbook that contains literally every spell in existence. You're going to have a much more limited spellbook that, at level 30, contains 10 utility powers and 6 daily attack powers (utilities at 2/6/10/16/22; you only get 3 daily attacks since you retrain starting in paragon). Also, your spellbook can't contain spells that are more powerful than you can currently cast. Wizards don't share spells in 4e; they figure them out themselves. Expanded Spellbook will increase that to 9 daily attack powers (3 of any given level), but you're still talking about a fraction of the spells that you used to have.

    Honestly, the main value in Prophetic Preparation is that it allows you to have much more niche power selections than a wizard would normally go with since they're able to use the generalist power and swap it out for the situational niche power if/when the situation in which it is better presents itself. Considering you're dumping a feat so that you can swap a generally useful power for a situationally useful one, it not particularly powerful.
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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Swapping low level powers into high level powers is probably not an intended use of the feat, but it sure is what the rules say so there you go. Is it actually broken though, unlikely. The thing about 4e is that the level of a power is only very vaguely correlated to its strength. See: flame spiral being leaps and bounds ahead of every other sorcerer encounter power in strength, despite being a level 3 power. Now that's probably more by accident than design, but it does mean that a poorly worded feat that lets you 'upgrade' your level 5 daily to a level 19 one is probably not actually broken at all, because visions of avarice is stronger than any wizard D19 you'd care to name. Handy for making the more niche dailies useful, you can sit a copy of soul puppets in your spellbook and then bust it out if and only if you actually fight undead, but overpowered, eh. Doubt it.
    Last edited by Lanaya; 2019-09-04 at 02:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    The Vistani heritage feats just seem really powerful in general. Vistani Foresight? An extra action point each day for free -- and because I'm a 21st-level wizard, that means an extra daily attack power? Even the base power, Evil Eye of the Vistani, is pretty much that Free Real Estate meme.
    They are. Evil Eye is an excellent use of a minor action, and synergizes well with abilities that trigger on a crit (e.g. the Planeshaper ED).
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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    So, a thought occurs.
    • The Moteborn theme gives a summoning power, Summon Flame Zephyr, that has a close burst attack. Crucially, this power is a daily attack (as opposed to a daily utility) and as far as I know it's the only daily attack granted by a theme that doesn't replace a power. At level 10 you can use it twice. See why this is important below.
    • Taking a hybrid Wizard/Monk, if you pick Stone Fist, gives access to the Dazing Fury and Crack the Mountain feats. Because the Summon Flame Zephyr power is a daily attack power, it's eligible for these feats.
    • The Fighter multiclass gives access to Dizzying Mace and Thunder Hammer feats. Monks can use maces, or more specifically clubs as implements. So no problem there. Well, there is a problem that these feats won't work with the Flame Zephyr. "When you hit an enemy with a power that dazes the target while you are using a mace." And I don't see the Weapon or Implement keywords. Still, when used with your daily attack powers that DO have the relevant keywords, it's downright crippling. Imagine using this with Visions of Avarice.

    This build is really feat-intensive in heroic and low paragon, I know. However, you'll be able to daze and slow (save ends) at LEAST in a burst 1 most every round and most every combat, because Moteborn can fill in the holes for your Daily Powers. By level 12, if you start with an INT 18/CON 16, the creatures you hit will take a -5 penalty to attack rolls as well.
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2019-09-07 at 07:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    So, a thought occurs.
    • The Moteborn theme gives a summoning power, Summon Flame Zephyr, that has a close burst attack. Crucially, this power is a daily attack (as opposed to a daily utility) and as far as I know it's the only daily attack granted by a theme that doesn't replace a power. At level 10 you can use it twice. See why this is important below.
    • Taking a hybrid Wizard/Monk, if you pick Stone Fist, gives access to the Dazing Fury and Crack the Mountain feats. Because the Summon Flame Zephyr power is a daily attack power, it's eligible for these feats.
    • The Fighter multiclass gives access to Dizzying Mace and Thunder Hammer feats. Monks can use maces, or more specifically clubs as implements. So no problem there. Well, there is a problem that these feats won't work with the Flame Zephyr. "When you hit an enemy with a power that dazes the target while you are using a mace." And I don't see the Weapon or Implement keywords. Still, when used with your daily attack powers that DO have the relevant keywords, it's downright crippling. Imagine using this with Visions of Avarice.

    This build is really feat-intensive in heroic and low paragon, I know. However, you'll be able to daze and slow (save ends) at LEAST in a burst 1 most every round and most every combat, because Moteborn can fill in the holes for your Daily Powers. By level 12, if you start with an INT 18/CON 16, the creatures you hit will take a -5 penalty to attack rolls as well.
    I don't think the Flame Zephyr part works.

    The initial summon power is (for some reason) labeled as an 'Attack', which by definition makes it an Attack Power. However, there are no attacks being made by the power - all the power does is plop a Zephyr on the board within Range 10 and gives you the rules that are relevant.
    The actual summon itself is listed in a seperate stat block underneath the Daily Attack Power in the book. And that summon's attacks are specifically called out as being 'At-Will'.

    I'd argue the line becomes a bit more blurry with stuff like the Wizard's own Summoning Dailies, which have the statblocks implemented in the power, which still has 'Daily' at the top of its power block. Though I doubt there are many DMs that would rule that the subsequent attacks would count as 'Daily Attack Powers' whilst also being usable At-Will.

    The other part of the idea works, though it's a very heavy investment. Especially since you'd be down a Wizard daily, and it's not like Wizards are lacking any encounter-winning Daily powers. Adding more control on top of those is nice, but might easily become redundant. Adding a daze and attack penalty on an enemy already that has no real way to approach or even see the party is nearly useless. Of course, Dizzying Mace still works on any daze, so there are plenty of Encounter pickings that work well with it, as well as Daily powers that already daze by default.

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    Default Re: Help with L15 Wizard Blaster/Controller Build for a small group.

    Mm, Stone Fist is cool but it's largely redundant on an actual controller. Even when your dailies don't already daze, additional control effects usually have diminishing returns - once you've reached the point where the monster can't do anything with its turn, which the good wizard dailies do on their own, adding more control on top doesn't really accomplish anything. My exploratory attempts at building around Stone Fist have largely revolved around giving it to multitarget strikers.
    Last edited by Lanaya; 2019-09-07 at 05:24 PM.

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