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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    New Jersey, doh.
    Gender
    Male

    Default (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Setting closed to new interest date at: the evening of Sunday, September 8th. I expect to review the next Monday so late on the 8th is fine.

    This post will have more details, but here's the short re-recruitment pitch:

    • Mix of 3.5 and Pathfinder 1.0. (mostly spells and like from former, skills and feat progression latter, classes and monsters from both)
    • Class/Monster gestalt. A full class build on class side (say Wizard 5/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5) and a monster race on the other. Monster race may include blank levels if LA is +1 or higher, these are similar in concept to savage species progression. LA's are much lower (often 0) compared to WotC published material. Link to be added soon.
    • Level 3 starting point with a chunk of exp for crafting as desired (3.5 crafting rules), 4000 gold from memory.
    • Forgotten Realms campaign in standard 3.5 setting/timeline. Currently just outside the city of Sundabar, in the Silver Marches. (which includes Silverymoon and Mithril Hall for the familiar)
    • High magic and high power campaign, optimization encouraged but not required, TO will not be allowed to upset campaign (or party) balance. Some Frank and K material is allowed, some is not.
    • Paladin/exalted friendly, vow of peace/non-violence not allowed. No blackguards, evil paladin variants, or vile feats at all. Evil of any kind would likely be LE and have to play nice with existing characters. (one is a paladin)


    Posting frequency: The goal is 72 hours or less, primarily for combat rounds. If you know that won't happen, please designate another player to take your turn. Consistently missing 72 hours will require replacement. Real life happens, occasional is fine. Over a week without notice (as in, waiting on your turn during combat) is effectively a warning. Two weeks without warning or alternate will also require replacement. I encourage roleplaying, especially in social scenarios, but am perfectly fine with multiple players roleplaying characters who are fairly silent outside combat. So your preference.

    Current threads are:

    OOC Thread
    IC Thread
    Original recruitment thread. Will someday expire, most is saved in OOC above.

    Style of Play: Mix, but focused on combat/exploration and roleplaying. Puzzles may never happen. Traps will exist, I suggest searching at minimum every chest and any impressive door.
    Allowed Content: Generally, first party D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder 1.0. Dragon magazine will generally be allowed but needs to be glanced at. 3rd party is discouraged and case-by-case. Homebrew will generally be rejected. Elements from Frank and K Trollman's tomes will be in play. This is complex and will be detailed later as necessary. 3.5 Expanded Psionics handbook and ToB are encouraged.
    This is in Faerun, so anything Forgotten Realms is likely to be allowed. Greyhawk is fairly simple to adapt. Eberron is mildly discouraged, especially if it is very complex. Warforged are acceptable as your base LA +0 race.

    Character Creation:


    • Backstory:Roleplay in backstory is very optional. I'd like at least a short origin or beginning concept stated. I'm more focused on hooks about what motivates your character, and what doesn't.
    • Experience: 3,500 (D&D 3.5, 3rd level plus a healthy amount for potions and scrolls to start. Please don't spend below 3,000)
    • Wealth: 4,000 gold. I will add an adventuring kit, so you don't need to buy anything to travel 3-4 days overland safely. You are starting in a decent sized city so anything you can afford you can start with. Standard gold/exp costs for D&D 3.5 magic item creation.
    • Ability Scores: Very high powered. Based on 3.5 class tier rankings. T1 is 32 point buy. T2 is 36. T3+ is 40. 3.5 point buy unless everyone wants pathfinder, then I'd need to swap numbers. NPC's with PC class levels will also have higher point buys for their build.
    • Hitpoints/Health:None are rolled. Max for 1st level, half (round up) all others. So d4 is 3, d6 is 4, d8 is 5, d10 is 6, d12 is 7.
    • Alignment: Paladin friendly. CN can work, but needs some hooks and background as to why you won't betray the party. Evil is unlikely to be allowed. Note divine casters cannot worship concepts in Faerun, so mechanically they have to care about alignment.


    Other Notes:

    Spoiler: "The Big Sixteen questions:"
    Show
    1. What game system are you running (D&D, Call of Cthulu, Palladium, GURPS, etc.), and if applicable what edition (Original, Classic, Revised, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 10th, etc.)?
    3.P: Mix of D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder 1.0.

    2. What 'type' or variant of game will it be (i.e. "Shadow Chasers" or "Agents of Psi" for d20 Modern)? What is the setting for the game (eg. historic period, published or homebrewed campaign setting, alternate reality, modern world, etc.)?
    Forgotten Realms setting. Starting city and year/date later, several years after the Time of Troubles.

    3. How many Players are you looking for? Will you be taking alternates, and if so, how many?
    4-6 is ideal, if there is a lot of good contributions I will consider alternates.

    4. What's the gaming medium (OOTS, chat, e-mail etc.)?
    Play-by-post on these boards. Eventually that may shift to incorporate roll20, but not just yet.

    5. What is the characters' starting status (i.e. experience level)?
    D&D 3.5 experience rules, 3,500 exp, 3rd level class/monster gestalt.

    6. How much gold or other starting funds will the characters begin with?
    4,000 gold. Purchases can be made and are encouraged before play begins, magic items can be made as long as you stay above 3,000 exp. Standard 3.5 magic item creation.

    7. Are there any particular character classes, professions, orders, etc. that you want... or do not want? What are your rules on 'prestige' and/or homebrewed classes?
    I'd like a varied group that can handle common D&D challenges. If fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard can handle it, the party should be able to in some fashion. 1st party classes and prestige classes are usually accepted, there will be a ban list. Homebrew is discouraged. Very complex homebrew will be rejected. 3rd party is case by case.

    8. What races, subraces, species, etc. are allowed for your game? Will you allow homebrewed races or species? 'Prestige' races or species?
    This is class/monster gestalt. The class track will be a 1 HD, generally LA:+0 base race. Standard D&D races should use pathfinder 1.0 rules. (spoiler: they are all stronger) The class track will also be a standard build of classes and prestige classes.
    The monster track will be only a monster "race". This may be RHD and LA, or a full savage species progression. I'd ask that your monster stay to under HD+LA of 10 total. If you are passionate about something I will try to accommodate.
    D&D 3.5 monster races are better evaluated by this series of threads: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ive&p=21798987
    Sadly, I can't allow everything or anticipate every class and monster race interaction. I will have to evaluate each monster race LA when I see the build.

    9. By what method should Players generate their attributes/ability scores and Hit Points?
    D&D 3.5 point buy, adjust for the tier ranking of the overall build. T1 is 32 points, T2 is 36, T3 is 40. This the tier of the class side of the build. A few may need judgement calls, but a wizard that gives up no caster levels is T1.
    Max Hps at level 1, average (round up) all other levels. d4 is 3, d6 is 4, d8 is 5, d10 is 6, d12 is 7. If the monster track has a HD at that level, use the higher of monster HD and class HD.

    10. Does your game use alignment? What are your restrictions, if so?
    Standard alignments. See above. Divine casters in Faerun worship gods, so their alignment mechanically matters.

    11. Do you allow multi-classing, or have any particular rules in regards to it?
    The class track has unlimited multi-classing and prestige classing. No 20% penalty for any situation.
    The monster track will only be monster HD and LA, unless a full savage species progression is made or exists.
    They don't interact much, in particular full casting on the monster track can't be used to qualify for theurge prestige classes.


    12. Will you be doing all of the die rolling during the course of the game? Will die rolls be altered, or left to the honor system? If players can make die rolls, which ones do they make, how should they make the rolls, and how should they report them?Players will do significant rolls for their characters. Hit, damage, and saving throws. I plan to perception/stealth checks and probably initiative to speed things. I am open to suggestions on this. Update: I expect to roll initiative, stealth and perception at this point. Players make hit, damage, and important saves. (aoe entangle I might roll to speed things up)

    13. Are there any homebrewed or optional/variant rules that your Players should know about? If so, list and explain them, or provide relevant links to learn about these new rules.
    Yes, LA adjustment thread above. Gestalt is a modification of the UA gestalt rules, available on the 3.5 SRD online for free. Some Frank and K Trollman tomes rules will be used, most will not.
    Honestly there is too much to detail in this portion. Work in progress.

    14. Is a character background required? If so, how big? Are you looking for anything in particular (i.e. the backgrounds all ending up with the characters in the same city)?
    Yes, it can be fairly short. I want at least a brief origin description. I particularly request one or more hooks to motivate your character in gameplay.

    15. Does your game involve a lot of hack & slash, puzzle solving, roleplaying, or a combination of the above?
    Primarily hack & slash, exploring, and roleplaying. Mix of those three, puzzle solving I'm not a fan when anyone has hours to google it, so expect those to be very rare.

    16. Are your Players restricted to particular rulebooks and supplements, or will you be allowing access to non-standard material? What sources can Players use for their characters?
    Generally 3.5 D&D and pathfinder 1.0 first party, including dragon magazine. I'd prefer major systems to be mostly 3.5. Classes, races, and base and prestige classes can be either.
    Skills will use the pathfinder version, house rules added on top.


    Spoiler: Class/Monster Gestalt??
    Show
    Ok, this isn't real simple, but I'll do my best.

    This is gestalt, based on Unearthed Arcana rules, conveniently in the 3.5 SRD online for free. Fractional BAB and save bonuses are in effect, for sanity.

    The class track is fairly normal, you choose standard LA: +0 race, and a build. Say Druid 20. The races are based and balanced on pathfinder 1.0, not D&D 3.5. So humans and half elves are +2/-0 for stats. Dwarves and most others +2/+2/-2, and unusual ones like orcs are +4/-2/-2/-2. That is the stats I expect to see. If you want something much more powerful it needs to be on the monster track. Update: I allowed Athasian(sp?) human so a bit more powerful is allowed as +0 race.

    Otherwise the class track isn't too complex. Theurge builds may not use casting from the monster track.

    The monster track is effectively a savage species progression. I'll try to find an example, but because of the powerful abilities, you only get HD/saves/skills on some of the levels. The other levels are effectively a +1 LA count. Stats, spell-likes, size, anything a human doesn't get is spread out over the levels. The hound archon mentioned by JNAProductions is 6 RHD and +1 LA, so at level 7 will be a standard hound archon on the monster track. Stats from the monster track and the base LA: +0 race stack.


    Spoiler: House Rules
    Show
    Boy. I had more in mind than I expected, I'll try to keep them simple and organized.

    Skills are generally pathfinder 1.0. In particular, no cross-class skill costs, no X4 skill points at 1st level, but +3 skill ranks for any class skill you put at least one point in. Concentration is no longer a skill, but everyone gets 1 rank per level free, with a bonus from spellcasting stat, or choose Con or Cha if you have no spells. While it is not actually a skill, you can choose (pathfinder) skill focus for it. Skill focus (Concentration) can replace combat casting for requirements. Casting defensively is 15+spell level, not 15+2Xspell level as pathfinder. High level casters don't fail this check.
    Bonus skills: Every class has 2 more skill points per level than listed. There are many fighter variants to consider if you desire that class. All have 6+int skills points (meaning you get 8+int) with a solid skill list to allow them to function.
    Perception: Mainly pathfinder 1.0 rules, spot/listen/search as one skill. React to ambush, or oppose disguise check is Wis based. Searching for traps or secret doors is Wis or Int based, whichever is better. (smart but very unwise rogues should be good at finding traps)
    Athletics: This is a combination of the pathfinder skills Climb, Fly, and Swim.

    Any class which had search as a class skill in 3.5 has trapfinding. So rogues, bards, and rangers have trapfinding. Barbarians and druids do not. Classes unique to pathfinder are case-by-case, but those five classes should be a good guideline.

    Everyone who reaches 4 ranks in Stealth has the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness). This counters most special detection abilities, requiring normal perception checks. It counters this list(others may be added): Blindsense, Blindsight, scent, tremorsense, mindsight.

    Weapon finesse is a feature of light weapons and the spiked chain. If it is a prerequisite, everyone is considered to have it.

    Two-weapon fighting includes improved, greater, etc version for the cost of one feat total. Offhand attacks unlock when you have the BAB for an iterative. 3.5 rangers may need replacement feats if they went two-weapon fighting.

    Frank and K Trollman tomes. I use some of their ideas, but a lot less than half. Barbarian and fighter are fine, most other base classes and all prestige classes are banned. Most of the scaling feats would be allowed. The scaling improvements from armor type are not in play. I can't offhand recall if their were scaling bonuses from weapon type but if they did they are a no-go as well.

    Multi-weapon fighting is not available to start, but can be acquired in place of two-weapon fighting. There is no improved multi-weapon fighting and greater, etc. A marilith would have multi-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting, greater two-weapon fighting for the cost of one feat.

    Iterative attacks are +0 to first attack, -5 total to later iteratives. So a 16th level fighter is at +16/+11/+11/+11 with no bonuses, feats, or magic items.

    Feats are as to pathfinder, 1 per odd level base so 1, 3, 5, 7, etc. You get additional feats based on tier ranking of your class track build: 1 for T1, 2 for T2, 3 for T3+. You may take at most 1 flaw and 1 trait from UA. (see the SRD online) My limited understanding is pathfinder traits have no downsides and are close enough to feats in power, so you can choose to buy those at a cost of one feat each.

    Favored classes: pathfinder 1.0 rules, 1 hp or 1 skill point if that class track level is in a favored class. Everyone may choose one favored class on creation. (or later, if desired). Prestige classes may never be favored classes. Humans, Half-elves, and half-orcs may choose 2 favored classes.

    Bonus Hps per level. You get Hps based on your highest stat, which is unlikely to be Con. The elves in this campaign have quite a lot more hps than most. If you for some reason have Con as your highest stat and plan to keep it that way, you get another bonus level 1 feat. (Incarnum maybe?) If you are a sorcerer and become undead, gaining some mechanic that gives Cha to Hps, you do not get an extra feat. Actual Con only. Str is significantly easier to boost very high than other stats. So beatsticks may have a ton of Hps. This is a feature, not a bug.

    Retraining: (PHB 2 rules) You may generally retrain for free with reasonable downtime. (think a few days) I'm not a big fan of no-rest-for-the-wicked, but in an overland chase you can't do it. Race retraining is a very big deal. It would need to be discussed, but can be done.

    You may not teleport, even with wish or equivalent, through 50' or more of solid rock. Or into a room 90% contained by a thin sheet of lead. Weirdstones are a thing in Forgotten realms, that also prevent teleport and some other things. In my campaign they are reduced from 200k gold+ to 20k-30k or so. (so no, you can't wish for a weirdstone) Teleport circles and portals are not restricted by any of these. But you physically have to be at both ends for some time, so that is still a limitation.

    Undead, even mindless undead, deserve the evil tag. There are rare exceptions. In Faerun good elven lich variants, but this is consistent. Frank and K necromancy Tomes discussed this, but in my campaign positive energy is mildly good, negative energy is mildly evil, and undead are fully evil. Skeletons and zombies have to be ordered *not* to kill everything living they see. They are not animated object on a corpse, they are a disturbing and wrong thing brought into existence. Related topic, golems don't have an elemental spirit empowering them. They move around because magic. The animating force is effectively the exp the caster spent.

    Mindless undead have most of the immunities in core rules, I may weaken one or two. And have d12 hps, with no bonus from Con or another stat. Intelligent undead, especially templates like vampires, liches, and necropolitan are significantly changed. They do not change to d12's, but keep what the previous class or type gave them. They generally will get bonus hps from a stat, usually Cha. Intelligent undead lose quite a lot of immunities, but undead still have Con -, and only make Fort saves if it also affects objects, like disintegrate.

    Spending exp is a big deal. It can not be generally reduced. No thought bottle, no epic item that reduces exp costs.

    Wishes and the wish-based economy. I don't expect this to come up at level 3, but it could be surprisingly soon. You can get "free" wishes or miracles. A level 17 cleric can simply cast them every day, planar binding and chain-slapping efreet for wishes, shapechange into a zodar. Wizards can pull it off as well. Not as easily as cleric, but they will understand how by 13 if not earlier. "Free" wishes and miracles are limited to whatever a cleric can miracle without exp cost. In addition, a single magic item of 15,000 gold or less, or gold/gems/jewelry of 25,000 or less. Which yes, includes a 25,000 gp diamond for true resurrection. Also +1 inherent bonuses to a stat. Inherent bonuses are generally only to stats, now stack fully, and in no event may ever exceed 5. Efreet and zodars can't wish for a 15,001 gp magic item, they just aren't capable. If you wish for a 15,001 gp magic item, you pay significant exp, or the spell fails. Planar currencies can't be wished for. Including: souls, liquid pain, favors, and adamantite. The planar metropolises of Union and Sigil exist. They both have currencies designed for the powerful to make small purchases in currency the seller will actually have interest in.

    Souls as power and pain as power are unknown. There are vague references the very knowledgeable have heard of that ancient Netheril may have been able to. Maybe the knowledge has simply been lost, maybe an incarnation of the god Mystra made it no longer possible. When the campaign begins, no one knows how.

    Forgotten Realms rules easy to miss: Divine casters get their spells and abilities from gods. No one may worship a concept. You really want to have a god chosen, at least by the very last second before you die. If you have "none" listed when you die, I will strongly encourage you to choose one right then. If you don't, and it takes a month to get raise dead funds together, you are pretty much *never* coming back. If you have a god chosen it is standard raise/resurrect rules. Rangers and paladins at level 3 don't need to choose, at level 4 you get no spells until you do.

    Mielikki (NG nature deity) greatly relaxes weapon and armor restrictions for druids. I'm extending this to all druids. Basically, druids can wear all light armor, medium armor, and shields. Metal armor and shields are allowed.
    Weapons are unrestricted, druids don't start with a lot of proficiencies in them though. (Elves still get longsword/longbow and friends)

    Clerics have heavy armor proficiency. (so 3.5 not really a house rule, but they don't in pathfinder)

    Ur-Priests: Exist, and do not have to be devoted to evil. You can be an ur-priest with another mediocre feat in place of spell focus(evil). This is complicated, and needs discussion if you want that. I have ideas on it, but this is very much in the "ask the DM and discuss it" category. The effective casting level for ur-priest from the class feature is capped at your character level. So Wizard5/Mindbender1/Ur-priest2/Mystic Theurge10 casts at level 18 for Ur-priest spells (which can be improved by items and feats from that point), not the 20 you'd get from how it is worded.

    Divine Metamagic: is available, but Persistent Spell is the first item on the ban list. DMM: Quicken follows RAW. Turning attempts are a resource, swift actions are resource, this is a high-power choice but not unbalancing. Nightsticks don't stack, so multiple DMM: Quickened spells every battle likely won't be possible.

    Multiple turning pools. Variant turning abilities (rebuke dragon) do not exist. So for DMM and divine feats, your possible choices are turn undead and rebuke undead. It isn't easy to get both, but there's a few prestige classes that can do it. If you do this, the extra turning feat, one nightstick, and some other boosts apply to both pools. DMM or domain abilities must be powered by one or the other with each use. You may not DMM: Quicken with 3 turn undead and 2 rebuke undead uses, but choose 5 from one or the other.

    Shapechange: May well be the most powerful and the most versatile spell in the game. I reserve the right to limit absurdly powerful abilities gained. An example is the add power ability that is most of the basis of Pun-Pun. Shapechanging into Zodar for a "free" wish every 6 seconds is explicitly allowed. If it is a lot better than that, it is likely banned.

    Celerity chain: The spells exist and work as written, the daze effect is quite different. The daze effect from celerity and friends cannot be removed, dispeled, healed, or prevented in any way, short of greater gods. (divine rank 16+) This is still a very good spell. Celerity into wall of stone can be game-changing. Celerity into time stop you are dazed the first round of your time. So round 1 of 1d4+1 is lost, still quite powerful. If this bothers you, pretend I house ruled daze replaced by something with a different name. Reminder that you generally can't use immediate actions when flat-footed.

    Spell Resistance: Not house rule: When you cast spells on yourself, you always penetrate your own spell resistance. House rule: If you have spell resistance, you may perform a 1 hour ritual with a caster to allow them to always penetrate your spell resistance. This lasts indefinitely. Either participant can end this effect with a full-round action that does not allow attacks of opportunity. Anyone with spell resistance can also, as a full-round action end this effect on every caster it has completed it with. If ended, it again takes another hour to re-enable. Mindless creatures (Int -) are incapable of performing this ritual.

    Astral Construct: Ignore the Complete Psionic 1 max astral construct per manifester. Terrible rule for terrible reasons, removed.

    Owl's Insight: Is reverted from Spell Compendium to it's previous version, which was sanely enhancement. Hard cap of +10 Wis at caster level 20, the feat that raises this slightly does work.

    Psionics-Magic Transparency: Even more than encouraged. There are no psionics magic item crafting feats, they are rolled into the similar PHB version. Psicraft is rolled into spellcraft. (wizards know a lot about psionics, psions know a lot about magic. This is a feature, not a bug.) Metapsionic feats are rolled into the equivalent metamagic feat, if it exists. (Maximize, Quicken). Keeping Know: Arcana and Know: Psionics separate, though. Psionics definitely exists in Faerun, but it is definitely 10 times as rare as arcane magic (outside Underdark), if not more.

    Spoiler: The Ban List
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    Persistent Spell. I looked for a long time at breaking combos or near breaking combos, and found this to be the culprit. If requested, I will homebrew an improved extend spell feat in some form. You will not get a 1 round spell for 24 hours before character level 30.
    Illithid Savant. Once the obvious campaign breaking issues are removed, subtle ones do surprising things that are a headache. Just no.
    Beholder Mage. Frankly you couldn't qualify. But if you did, several spells per round as a standard action aren't realistic to balance.
    Leadership, Undead Leadership, Thrallherd. Mostly because I don't want cohorts. Animal companions, wild cohort, and familiars are fine. One animal companion and one familiar max, please.
    Unlimited stacking. As I say often, I respect RAW but I respect balance more. Most bonuses, say enhancement or luck bonuses, don't stack. Dodge, racial, and unnamed bonuses usually stack. In my campaign, no bonuses of any kind stack if they are fundamentally from the same source. This extends to increases and number boosts. Nightsticks don't stack. Multiple different items that increase turning attempts per day can. The ioun stone that increases caster level by 1 does not stack.
    Anthropomorphic Animals No, you can't have +6 Wis and flight at LA: +0, some are even more abusive. Banned.

    Orcs And half-orcs are discouraged. This has nothing to do with power, but a campaign environment situation. You can choose orc or half-orc as your +0 LA class track race, but you'd have orc mechanics and say hobgoblin or bugbear appearance, or something. The reason will come up very early in the campaign.

    Exalted feats, characters, and paladins: Not banned, but sharply restricted. I treat LG/CG paladins the same, consider them exalted, and group them with exalted feats. The party must accept those restrictions placed on them. So you need a vote or consensus for approval. This goes double for Vow of non-violence, and triple for Vow of peace.
    Vile classes and feats, LE/CE Paladins: That is too evil, all banned. This monsters as PC's, not team EVIL as well. Update: Party approved paladins and exalted feats. Vow of Peace and Vow of Non-violence are banned.

    Initiate of the Faerie Mysteries: Because the only bonus anyone ever chooses, is given to the party for free. See house rules.

    No Dark Chaos Shuffle. You can only use the spell on real feats you chose, not say elven weapon proficiencies. If you make it a dark chaos feat, then change it back, you get what you started with. You don't pick again. Retraining is fully available, though.

    Disjunction: does not exist in any form. As you near 9th level spells, I plan to develop a replacement aoe anti-magic spell. This will be considerable more potent than reaving dispel. It will not destroy permanent magic items or artifacts, but may have a save for each or be suppressed for 10 rounds or more.

    Dastana and Chahar-Aina: The rules are not entirely clear, but the most logical is you now have 4 slots instead of two, for things like heavy fortification. Chain shirt is very good, this makes no one wear anything else, ever.

    Venomfire: I pointed out once a 5th level druid can potentially do 20d6 a round with this, for 5 hours. With one spell slot, and it continues to scale from there. Campaign unbalancing with moderate effort, banned. The dinosaur many take for it at 4th level is in play.

    Spoiler: My promises as DM
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    I promise to make a great effort to provide fair challenges to the party. I can kill you at any time. "Rocks fall, everybody dies." I won't do that, and though horrifically bad rolls can't be completely prevented, I won't present unfair situations.
    This is Faerun, there are always people more powerful than you. If you move in the direction of hopeless challenges, I will provide multiple fair warnings. Don't do things absurdly stupid. Sigil exists. Do not investigate the nature of the Lady of Pain.

    D&D is quite violent. Many people and things will try to kill you. Some in particularly unpleasant ways. Others view all mammals, including you, as food. I try not to be too graphic, please PM or equivalent me if something is starting to happen that bothers you. But violence and death will happen a lot. The Forgotten Realms is a high magic setting, even for D&D. Death is reversible, eventually not even a big obstacle.

    Many enemies you fight are evil. Others are EVIL. Others go into outright **EVIL**. They do really, really terrible things. Honestly, most people are happier not knowing about that. I know the details consistently, and can provide them. If you rescue some villagers captured by the ogre tribe, it was a bad time. You might want to just have an epic battle with the ogres, return the captives to their relatives to much back-patting and hopefully monetary rewards, and leave it at that.

    Spoiler: Posting frequency
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    I have M-F job that has sharply limited internet access, including this site. My goal is to respond as necessary every night. I have a Friday night video game raid session, I may have to put off very detailed responses until Saturday. I have a family reunion in a park for a few days in August, but otherwise I want to move things along quickly. I'm asking for responses at least twice a week, every night would be ideal but not realistic or fair. If you have to be away for more than three days I'd like you to appoint another player (i.e. not me) to handle your turn for you. Update: more on posting frequency above.

    Otherwise posting expectations will lean to what party consensus or preference is.
    Last edited by Covenant12; 2019-08-31 at 03:30 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    New Jersey, doh.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Some Monster savage species progressions for example. (as well as already approved)

    LA's are generally from this thread on these forums: LA assignment thread

    Spoiler: Campaign Gestalt Races
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    Spoiler: Hound Archon
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    Hound Archon, which is in the SRD. LA is +1 per the LA assignment thread.

    Racial Traits:
    • Starting Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Str.
      Speed: Hound Archon land speed is 40 feet.
      Darkvision 60', and Low-light vision (2Xhuman)
      Automatic Languages: Common, Celestial. Bonus languages: regional, Infernal, Abyssal, and as class.
      Lawful and good subtype, even if its current alignment is neither.
      +4 racial bonus on saves against poison.

    Class Skills:
    The hound archon's class skills are: Diplomacy, Stealth, Acrobatics, Perception, Sense Motive, Survival, Athletics, Knowledge(the Planes) and by class.
    While in canine form, the hound archon gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Hide and Survival checks.
    Class Features:
    Weapon and Armor proficiency: As outsiders, hound archons are proficient with simple and martial weapons. Armor and shield proficiencies are only gained by class levels.
    Bite: A bite is a natural attack. Beginning at 1st level, a hound archon deals 1d4 points of damage plus its Strength modifier when making a bite attack. At 3rd level the base damage rises to 1d6, and at 5th level to 1d8. Because a bite is a natural attack, a hound archon can use the full attack to attack with a melee weapon and follow up with its bite attack as a secondary attack with a -5 penalty. A bite as a secondary attack adds only one half its strength modifier. It does get iterative attacks (multiple attacks with the same weapon at a cumulative -5 penalty), if it is entitled to any, with its melee weapon (but not with its bite) when using such an attack routine.
    Slam: If a hound archon does not have a melee weapon equipped (or chooses not to use it), it may use its bite as a primary attack and a slam as a secondary attack. This does 1d4 damage plus one-half its strength modifier.
    Spell-Like Abilities: The hound archon has spell-like abilities that it casts at its character level. The hound archon can cast detect evil and message at will. The hound archon can cast aid and continual flame a number of times per day equal to its character level. At level 7, the hound archon can cast aid and continual flame at will.
    Teleport: The hound archon gains improving and increasing use of a teleport ability as it advances. This is a (Su) ability. All of these are limited to self only and 50 lbs of objects. No creatures of any type are allowed, excepting familiars. These are all cast at character level, or caster level 14, whichever is higher.
    At level 1, the hound archon may cast dimension door once per day per character level. At level 4, the hound archon may substitute 1 use of teleport for dimension door, increasing teleport usage by one per character level. At level 6, the hound archon may substitute greater teleport once per day for a use of dimension door. At level 7, dimension door, teleport, and greater teleport are usable at-will. For example, a level 6 hound archon has 6 uses of dimension door per day. 3 of these may be teleport, and 1 may be greater teleport.
    Change Shape (Su): A hound archon can assume any canine form of small or medium size. While in canine form, the hound archon loses its bite, slam, and weapon attacks, but gains the bite attack of the form it chooses. For the purposes of this ability, canines include any doglike or wolflike animal of the animal type.
    At level 5, the hound archon can assume a canine form of large size.
    Aura of Menace:Detailed in the MM 3.5 or SRD, -1 penalty at 3rd level, -2 penalty at 6th. This generally cannot be suppressed, save for antimagic effects and dead magic zones. If it somehow is in some other way, the hound archon can reactivate it once a turn as a free action, but only during its turn.
    Immunity to petrification.
    Electrical resistance: A hound archon gains increasing electrical resistance as it levels. At level 7, it gains electrical immunity.
    A hound archon's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as good-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
    Spell-like abilities: A hound archon casts these at its character level. They can cast detect evil and message at-will. They get increasing uses of aid and continual flame as they advance, until level 7 when they become at-will.
    Scent
    Tongues(Su): As MM 3.5/SRD, caster level 14 always active.
    Protection from Evil: A hound archon has a constant effect of protection from evil. This is a (Su) ability, and is similar in restriction to aura of menace, above.
    Magic Circle against Evil: A hound archon at level 5 gains a constant effect of magic circle against evil. This is a (Su) ability, and replaces the protection from evil effect.
    Spell Resistance: A hound archon has a spell resistance of 10+character level.

    Hound Archon:
    Level Hit Dice BAB Fort Ref Will Skill Points Special
    1st 1d8 +1 +2 +2 +2 (10+ Int mod) Feat, +1 natural armor, bite 1d4, slam 1d4, dimension door, protection from evil
    2nd 2d8 +2 +3 +3 +3 (10+ Int mod) +2 natural armor, electrical resistance 5
    3rd 3d8 +3 +3 +3 +3 (10+ Int mod) Feat, +3 natural armor, aura of menace -1, bite 1d6
    4th 3d8 +3 +3 +3 +3 --- +6 natural armor, +2 Con, +2 Wis, electrical resistance 10, teleport
    5th 4d8 +4 +4 +4 +4 (10+ Int mod) +7 natural armor, change shape: large canine, bite 1d8, magic circle against evil
    6th 5d8 +5 +4 +4 +4 (10+ Int mod) +8 natural armor greater teleport, aura of menace -2, electrical resistance 15
    7th 6d8 +6 +5 +5 +5 (10+ Int mod) +9 natural armor, greater teleport at will, spell-likes at-will, electrical immunity, +2 str (total +4 str)
    Spoiler: Janni
    Show
    Janni (psionic variant):

    Racial Traits:
    • Starting Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Int.
      Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative.
      Speed: Janni land speed is 30 feet.
      Darkvision 60'
      Automatic Languages: Common, regional Bonus languages: Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Aquan, Terran, Ignan, Auran, and as class.
      Elemental Endurance (see SRD)

    Class Skills:
    The janni's class skills are: Appraise, Concentration, Craft (any, taken individually), Escape Artist, Perception, Stealth, Ride, Sense Motive and by class.
    Class Features:
    Weapon and Armor proficiency: As outsiders, janni are proficient with simple and martial weapons. Janni begin able to use light armor and medium armor, but not shields.
    As a native outsider, a janni must eat, drink, sleep, and breathe.
    Psi-Like Abilities: The janni has psi-like abilities that it casts as it advances in level.
    Concealing Amorpha: beginning at 2nd level, the janni may cast this at manifester level 12 1/day. At 4th level, 2/day, and 6th level 3/day.
    Sustenance:A janni may cast sustenance at manifest level 7 1/day.
    Telempathic Projection: beginning at 2nd level, the janni may cast this at manifest level 12 1/day. At 4th level 2/day, and 6th level 3/day.
    Ethereal Jaunt, Psionic.Beginning at 5th level, the janni may cast this 1/day at manifester level 12. At 5th level the duration is 12 rounds. At 6th level, 12 minutes. At 7th level, up to 12 hours.
    Change Size (Psi): Beginning at 3rd level, the janni may manifest either of the powers of expansion or reduction 1/day. At 5th level, 2/day. The manifester level is equal to character level, but neither can be augmented so they last 1 minute/level.
    At 4th level, a janni gains a +1 Natural armor bonus.
    Fire resistance: A janni gains fire resistance 5 at level 2. At level 4, the janni gains fire resistance 10.
    Flight: A janni may fly with good maneuverability at speed 10' at level 4. At level 6, 20'.
    Plane Shift: Beginning at 5th level, a janni may manifest plane shift (self only) 2/day. At 6th level, 4/day. At 7th level, the janni gains unlimited use of plane shift, self and up to 8 others.
    Telepathy: Beginning at 3rd level, a janni has constant telepathy at 30' range. At 5th level, 60'. At 7th level, 100'.

    Janni:
    Level Hit Dice BAB Fort Ref Will Skill Points Special
    1st 1d8 +1 +2 +2 +2 (10+ Int mod) Feat, fire resistance 5, sustenance 1/day. +2 Str, Dex, and Int.
    2nd 2d8 +2 +3 +3 +3 (10+ Int mod) Concealing amorpha 1/day, telempathic projection 1/day, +2 Wis.
    3rd 3d8 +3 +3 +3 +3 (10+ Int mod) Feat, Change size 1/day, Telepathy 30', +2 Con, Cha.
    4th 3d8 +3 +3 +3 +3 --- +1 natural armor, fire resistance 10, Concealing amorpha 2/day, tele. proj. 2/day, +2 Str(now +4), +2 Int(+4), +2 Wis(+4)
    5th 4d8 +4 +4 +4 +4 (10+ Int mod) Change size, 2/day, Ethereal Jaunt, 12 rounds, Plane Shift, self 2/day, Telepathy 60', +2 Dex(+4)
    6th 5d8 +5 +4 +4 +4 (10+ Int mod) Ethereal Jaunt, 12 minutes, Plane Shift, self 4/day.
    7th 6d8 +6 +5 +5 +5 (10+ Int mod) Ethereal Jaunt, 12 hours, Plane Shift, self and 8 other, unlimited, Telepathy 100', +2 Str(+6)
    Spoiler: Unicorn
    Show
    How does this unicorn progression sound?

    Level BAB__Fort__Ref___Will___Special
    1___+1.00 +2.50 +2.50 +0.33 detect evil (at will), Horn 1d6, Scent, Wild Empathy (+2), +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, +2 natural armor
    2___+2.00 +3.00 +3.00 +0.67 cure light wounds (3/day), 2 Hooves 1d3, Horn (+1), Move Silently +2, +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
    3___-_____-_____-_____-____Horn (+2), neutralize poison (1/day), Speed 50 ft, Wild Empathy (+4), +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
    4___+3.00 +3.50 +3.50 +1.00_cure moderate wounds (1/day), Move Silently +4, Large size, +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
    5___+4.00 +4.00 +4.00 +1.33_magic circle against evil, Horn (+3), Speed 60 ft, Wild Empathy (+6), +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, +1 natural armor
    Last edited by Covenant12; 2019-08-31 at 03:51 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Reserved post 3. I respect the logic of a 60 second time out, but it is annoying just now.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Reserved post 4, as a just in case thing. Feel free to post after this one.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Reposting interest!!!
    3.99 Project, Trying to Improve the 3.5 version, current fixes:

    - Soulknife Fix
    - Samurai Rework
    - Paladin Fix

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anachronity
    I'm fairly interested in this, as judging from the IC it seems to be running reasonably so far.


    Some important monster-related questions...
    -Are there better magical weapon options than Amulet of Mighty Fists for monsters without hands? It's not a deal-breaker, but playing a plain martial character becomes less attractive with that as the only option. There's also only so many goofy magical items like hands of man or mouthpick weapons that I want to put on a monster, since in my eyes those only serve to un-monster the monster character and defeat the whole purpose.
    -What happens when we run out of monster 'levels' to take on the monster side of our gestalt?


    Some potential character ideas were...
    -Giant Eagle or Giant Owl
    would be the wayward steed of a fallen paladin, who parted ways when its master chose to serve evil (would not necessarily be the literal 'paladin's mount' class feature; giant eagles/owls are fully intelligent in their own right). For class, I would lean towards fighter or druid (since I'm told the party is lacking on the divine side of things, though I don't personally place much stock in the necessity of a 'balanced party'). In the latter case I'd probably want to find a way to give up the wild shape and animal companion class features since the character is already a monster and having an animal companion, while powerful, doesn't really gel with the fiction here for me.

    -Cloaker
    would go for something rogue-ish, possibly a Lurk from Complete Psionic if some amendments were made to the class. I would probably establish something similar to that described here; the character believes their kind to be the cast-off tatters of Vecna's own robes, whose purpose is to seek out the secrets of the world before once more rejoining with their clandestine master in the next life. That said, the character would have more personality to them than just being a piece of sentient clothing.

    -Phase Spider
    frankly it just seems like a fun gimmick, and it's strong enough that I probably wouldn't need to worry too much about being 'optimal' in other areas. In fact I would likely lean towards a relatively mundane class just to make the power of permanent etherealness more manageable for the GM. I'm sure I can figure out some sort of interesting backstory.

    -Imp
    a devil who made a deal with an archon; in exchange for learning the whereabouts of someone important to their past life, they have agreed to only engage in goodly undertakings for a length of time.
    Transferred from old thread.

    I believe Savage Species had a necklace that allowed magic item enchantment per natural attack. So adding +1 flaming to bite attack would be roughly as much as a +1 flaming weapon. Adding +1 flaming to 2 claws and 1 bite would be triple price, however. That would definitely be allowed.

    Currently the permitted option when out of monster RHD/LA levels, is adding templates. (Mineral Warrior for an example that actually has rules for that.) Advancing the monster by HD as per monster manual rules is an option, though admittedly an uncompelling one. I'm considering allowed class levels on the monster track at that point. That is a long ways off in real world play-by-post time, I'd probably bring that up as it gets near.

    Giant Eagle, Owl, and Cloaker should be fine. (LA would be from the thread, and they'd need savage species progressions) Imp should work. Would need discussion with the paladin/good outsiders. But an imp who swore an "I'll be good for a long period" to upper planar powers would likely be tolerated. Incidentally, poison is not evil in this campaign.

    Phase Spider improved permanent ethereal jaunt would need evaluation. You could often scout an entire dungeon unseen. See invisibility sees ethereal, but the overwhelming majority of encounters would have no chance to detect you.

    You mentioned a significant dislike of Vancian casting, which is a common dislike and/or hatred. I'd allow favored soul as pure stat caster, Wis or Cha at option. (Cha seems to make more sense, really) And unrelated to you Archivist is now a pure Int caster. Expect similar for any two-stat casters, not a fan of the mechanic.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Ok, super interested, I got two ideas one is already developed:
    Gudu Sileso, Djinni Factotum

    but the at will invisibility is a bit silly

    the other is a Flamebrother salamander totemist/rogue

    In any case a skill-monkey
    Last edited by Auranghzeb; 2019-08-31 at 06:22 PM.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    I don't know if I missed it, but what are the current players? I wouldn't want to potentially step on another player's toes by inadvertently mimicking their build and concept.

    For the bonuses on tier choices, is this your 'primary' intention, the class you started with at level 1, or the majority of your levels at level 3? Example, if I wanted to go an eldritch knight build and started as a level 2 fighter and level 1 wizard on one side (or was a level three fighter intending to grab nothing but wizard levels and spellcasting advancing prestige classes), would that be counted as tier 1, or tier 5?

    Also am I reading things right that we'd get the racial stat bonuses, racial features, and etc of a humanoid race, in addition to the racial bonuses of our monster choice?

    And for the concept I'm thinking towards, if a savage progression exists for something that has more than 3 ECL (either in savage species, online resources, or dragon magazine), but the revised LA is +0 or lower, can we essentially use it and just gain the LA-level benefits when getting the underlying Hit Die as well, or would we need to create an entirely new savage progression?

    Edit: If our monster class has a racial spellcasting ability, can we choose to advance it if we've taken the spellcasting slot on the class side? I presume we can't advance it to higher than our hit die (or no double progression per level), but if the racial casting is not equivalent to the monster's Hit Die, or has a delayed entry, is it possible to treat our relevant spellcasting class as if it was our racial casting, or would we have to wait until savage progression gain the 1st level of racial casting before taking spellcasting levels if we wished them to function together, or would it be retroactive or not work together at all?

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Well I had thought of playing something like a warforged or something similar with stalker vigilante
    Animated Spellcards from the Deck of Many Things
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Intriguing.
    Not entirely sure what I want to enter.
    No DM is ever truly out of tricks to mess with his/her players.
    No player is ever truly out of ways to surprise their DM.
    Spoiler
    Show

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    Zombie

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    I'm really into playing that Djinni (Savage species progression), but I think some of the abilities are a bit overpowered, like at will invisibility or Planeshift at level 5. I'll be more than willing to tone that down. Let's say invisibility 1/encounter x ratial HD?

    Spoiler: Gudu Sileso
    Show


    Gudu Sileso
    CG Djinni Factotum, Level 3, Init 3, HP 23/23, Speed Land 20 fly 30
    AC 17, Touch 13, Flat-footed 14, CMD 17, Fort 4, Ref 6, Will 5, CMB +4, Base Attack Bonus 2
    Scimitar +6 (1d6+2, 18-20x2)
    Composite longbow +5 (1d8+2, )
    Chainshirt MW (+4 Armor, +3 Dex)
    Abilities Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 14, Cha 14
    Condition None



    Background: Background:

    Gudu was called to Faerun as a servant, a loyal advisor for Pasha Pook. He served him loyally despite the not so noble inclinations of Pook and his many dubious alliances. After Pook's death shortly before the Time Of Troubles, Gudu became free to roam the world. He enlisted in a merchant ship and traveled all the southern seas, but his trip was cut short by the god's war and the devastation it left behind.

    He came back to Calimport only to find the glorious city immersed in internal power struggles. The shadow guild tried to recruit him in their secret war to control Calimport, but Gudu didn't want anything to do with them. The only solution was in exile. Once again he boarded a ship and went north instead.


    two questions:

    1-Does the class side of the gestalt gets the benefits of the standard race or that only applies if we use a template on the monster side?

    2-Factotum is not a PF class so I have no idea what would be the Favored class bonus.
    Last edited by Auranghzeb; 2019-09-01 at 07:01 AM.

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Normally I'd go Thri-Kreen or Diopsid Warlock for this sort of thing, but this time I think I'll go Lizardfolk, as with a Grod's game I'm in. The LA thread puts it at -0 LA. Would a Viletooth Lizardfolk (Water Breathing instead of Hold Breath, +2 con instead of +2 str for +4 con total, and extra 1d6 acid bite damage) be LA 0 still? [There's a 0LA monster class for Pathfinder that gives full PF Lizardfolk abilities over 2 levels with no LA]

    For the third level, I'd like to use the Giant Creature template to replicated Blackscale Lizardfolk (Being a regular lizardfolk of Large size, with bonus natural armor and appropriate stats, which the Giant Creature template handles nicely)

    For class, I'm thinking Fighter (Though I was previously unaware of the referenced fighter homebrew in the OP). Not sure though, but I'll not go the sneak attack route because I want to be big. Future levels on the monster track will be ways to be more monstrous in all likelihood.

    Edit:
    Would Hefty Brute allow an animal to count as one size larger for riding? Thinking either Fighter (Rough Rider) with a croc Wild Companion, or a Fighter (Draconheir Scion)
    Last edited by 5ColouredWalker; 2019-09-01 at 10:22 AM.
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    I'm not feeling conquery.
    Status Update:
    Sick and busy past few days. Catching up tomorrow. Sorrry for my silence.

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    I'm interested! How about a Kineticist/Triton?
    Last edited by Almostdead; 2019-09-01 at 09:52 AM.

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    actually, this might be the best time for me to play up the race/class I've wanted to play for a while..

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    If you'll allow me to go quite crazy, Spider-Eater Paladin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gildedragon View Post
    "How much to help you craft items? I'll cover the XP costs" All Lvl 15 Githyanki

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Quote Originally Posted by Auranghzeb View Post
    Ok, super interested, I got two ideas one is already developed:
    Gudu Sileso, Djinni Factotum

    but the at will invisibility is a bit silly

    the other is a Flamebrother salamander totemist/rogue

    In any case a skill-monkey
    That could fit very well, and the build is impressively close to complete.

    The LA thread I believe I complete to link is here: Post #813 has a concept for Djinni progression, which looks fine.

    So you get invisibility, but not at-will until character level 6. Which is much more manageable as a DM than constant ethereal jaunt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Auranghzeb
    I'm really into playing that Djinni (Savage species progression), but I think some of the abilities are a bit overpowered, like at will invisibility or Planeshift at level 5. I'll be more than willing to tone that down. Let's say invisibility 1/encounter x ratial HD?

    two questions:

    1-Does the class side of the gestalt gets the benefits of the standard race or that only applies if we use a template on the monster side?

    2-Factotum is not a PF class so I have no idea what would be the Favored class bonus.
    The linked post increasingly looks like a good basis. Again, 3/day at campaign start, at will at 6. Plane shift at-will is quite nice, but that's level 9. A cleric can cast it at least twice if needed, looks fine.

    1-The standard race benefits (or penalties) are on top of whatever monster race stats you have at level 3. Pathfinder races, which are numerically a bit more powerful than 3.5.

    2-Unless we find a great solution beforehand, you may be stuck with +1 skill point or +1 hit point. Technically homebrew territory, but might copy something that works like rogue or bard. (and I haven't checked if either really works yet)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amoren
    I don't know if I missed it, but what are the current players? I wouldn't want to potentially step on another player's toes by inadvertently mimicking their build and concept.

    For the bonuses on tier choices, is this your 'primary' intention, the class you started with at level 1, or the majority of your levels at level 3? Example, if I wanted to go an eldritch knight build and started as a level 2 fighter and level 1 wizard on one side (or was a level three fighter intending to grab nothing but wizard levels and spellcasting advancing prestige classes), would that be counted as tier 1, or tier 5?

    Also am I reading things right that we'd get the racial stat bonuses, racial features, and etc of a humanoid race, in addition to the racial bonuses of our monster choice?

    And for the concept I'm thinking towards, if a savage progression exists for something that has more than 3 ECL (either in savage species, online resources, or dragon magazine), but the revised LA is +0 or lower, can we essentially use it and just gain the LA-level benefits when getting the underlying Hit Die as well, or would we need to create an entirely new savage progression?

    Edit: If our monster class has a racial spellcasting ability, can we choose to advance it if we've taken the spellcasting slot on the class side? I presume we can't advance it to higher than our hit die (or no double progression per level), but if the racial casting is not equivalent to the monster's Hit Die, or has a delayed entry, is it possible to treat our relevant spellcasting class as if it was our racial casting, or would we have to wait until savage progression gain the 1st level of racial casting before taking spellcasting levels if we wished them to function together, or would it be retroactive or not work together at all?
    Currently Centaur warlock, Astral Deva paladin, and Faerie Dragon arcanist. (pathfinder class)

    Tier bonus for point buy and bonus feats is basically level 20 build intent. Crusader 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/etc is still tier one. Complex gish builds with less caster levels would be lower. It may go down to case-by-case. Edit: for the specific question I'd think a wizard losing three caster levels early would drop to T2.

    Yes, +0 race and monster race stats stack. And racial features, when they aren't somehow mutually exclusive. So Dwarf Janni: Dwarf(+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha), and Janni(by chance +2 to all 6 stats at level 3, in post 2), is +2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +0 Cha. And slower land speed than Janni (now 20'), but can somehow tumble in heavy armor.

    Unless it happens to have a RHD+LA of 3, you probably need a savage species progression homebrewed. 3.0 and 3.5 erred on making LA's absurd high, which the linked thread aims to correct, so they will be much lower.

    Monster spellcasting: short answer is no. Monster casting and class casting don't stack, and monster casting can't be used for theurge classes. (meaning actual dual-casting or manifesting classes, not ToB prestige classes or Abjurant Champion and the like) Shenanigans with Versatile Spellcaster and such for theurge builds are fully allowed, and you have extra feats. (so Wizard 5/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge X or the like)
    Last edited by Covenant12; 2019-09-01 at 01:07 PM. Reason: Missed question

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Could we keep the savage species progression with 3/day invisibility and a very late plane shift? I mean, I really don't mind, but the poor maneuverability and the ability score bonus makes me have to recalculate everything on the sheet...

    Nevermind, is the same, and I understand that perfect maneuverability at this level is a bit OP...

    I'll take improved flight at level 1 feat and then re-train if that is ok with you.

    Other than that the build is complete

    I just need to shop some more and find a reason why he is at Sundabar, though that's easy given the Adventure's Charter.
    Last edited by Auranghzeb; 2019-09-01 at 12:38 PM.

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Oh I see.. We take a normal PC race and then add some sort of monster class stuff on it as well? Are we limited to just the monster classes that were available in the savage species book?
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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    The above question? + is there a repository of savage species progressions with the level adjustment reassignment thread LA that you like/would use?

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Quote Originally Posted by Triskavanski View Post
    Well I had thought of playing something like a warforged or something similar with stalker vigilante
    Warforged is pre-approved as an LA: +0 race. So it is fine, but you'd want something even more monstrous on the monster track.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5ColouredWalker
    Normally I'd go Thri-Kreen or Diopsid Warlock for this sort of thing, but this time I think I'll go Lizardfolk, as with a Grod's game I'm in. The LA thread puts it at -0 LA. Would a Viletooth Lizardfolk (Water Breathing instead of Hold Breath, +2 con instead of +2 str for +4 con total, and extra 1d6 acid bite damage) be LA 0 still? [There's a 0LA monster class for Pathfinder that gives full PF Lizardfolk abilities over 2 levels with no LA]

    For the third level, I'd like to use the Giant Creature template to replicated Blackscale Lizardfolk (Being a regular lizardfolk of Large size, with bonus natural armor and appropriate stats, which the Giant Creature template handles nicely)

    For class, I'm thinking Fighter (Though I was previously unaware of the referenced fighter homebrew in the OP). Not sure though, but I'll not go the sneak attack route because I want to be big. Future levels on the monster track will be ways to be more monstrous in all likelihood.

    Edit:
    Would Hefty Brute allow an animal to count as one size larger for riding? Thinking either Fighter (Rough Rider) with a croc Wild Companion, or a Fighter (Draconheir Scion)
    By coincidence, Expanded Psionics Handbook Thri-kreen was a very unusual consistent consensus at LA: +1. (and 2 Monstrous Humanoid RHD, as always) Giant (pathfinder template) Lizardfolk would almost certainly be a 3rd level monster track build.

    For fighter class, at minimum please use the pathfinder version. Free online, and numerically flat superior to 3.5 fighter with no downsides. Frank and K's fighter class is pre-approved, Crusader and Warblade are other options depending on what you want. I'm not familiar with either fighter variant you mentioned, but I suspect it is pathfinder 1.0. I'll google afterwards, but if my guess is correct it would be approved.

    Yes, I'd allow Hefty Brute as an animal companion feat. And it would work for rider size maximum as you intend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almostdead
    I'm interested! How about a Kineticist/Triton?
    3.5 Expanded psionics handbook kineticist is encouraged. Pathfinder 1.0 had a kineticist that was odd and I'd need to review for understanding. But I don't believe it was high powered. Which version? Triton would be fine, though likely less than three monster levels. So templates are something would be needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triskavanski
    Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    actually, this might be the best time for me to play up the race/class I've wanted to play for a while..

    An Ogre Ninja
    Odd choice, but should be fine. Pathfinder 1.0 stealth/perception rules, and large size gets -4 stealth penalty. Ogres are not nearly as hated as orcs in the starting region but you will have to put up with the occasional angry or distrustful stare.
    Quote Originally Posted by ErebusVonMori
    If you'll allow me to go quite crazy, Spider-Eater Paladin.
    Absolutely could be done. General guideline is Int 2 translate to a -8 Int penalty. Which is harshly limiting for skills if nothing else. There are ways to awaken Int in creatures (not sure on magical beasts but could be homebrewed). Silver Marches is fairly open minded, but the likely assumption among the knowledgeable is that they'd assume you are an exotic mount for one of your party members.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triskavanski
    Oh I see.. We take a normal PC race and then add some sort of monster class stuff on it as well? Are we limited to just the monster classes that were available in the savage species book?
    Generally every savage species progression has to be homebrewed. (meaning by me). No, and a Monsters as PCs is encouraged to be quite varied. If you expect the RHD+LA will be well over 10 that's likely too much. Too much work, and you get too little of the monster abilities for a long time. Astral Deva was a special exception, as savage species did the vast majority of the work for me.

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Ok, I'm using the Djinni you linked. And I fnished both Crunch and Fluff. I still got some gold to spend, but I'll get to that later.

    Spoiler: Gudu Sileso
    Show


    Gudu Sileso
    m CG Human Djinni Factotum, Level 3, Init 3, HP 23/23, Speed Land 30 fly 40(Average)
    AC 18, Touch 13, Flat-footed 15, CMD 19, Fort 4, Ref 6, Will 5, CMB +6, Base Attack Bonus 2
    Falchion +7 (2d4+6, 18-20x2)
    Composite longbow +5 (1d8+4, )
    Chainshirt MW (+4 Armor, +3 Dex, +1 Deflect)
    Abilities Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 20, Wis 14, Cha 16
    Condition None or perhaps a bit tipsy



    Spoiler: Background
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    Gudu was called to Faerun as a servant, a loyal advisor for Pasha Pook. He served him loyally despite the not so noble inclinations of Pook and his many dubious alliances. After Pook's death shortly before the Time Of Troubles, Gudu became free to roam the world. He enlisted in a merchant ship and traveled all the southern seas, but his trip was cut short by the god's war and the devastation it left behind.

    He came back to Calimport only to find the glorious city immersed in internal power struggles. The shadow guild tried to recruit him in their secret war to control Calimport, but Gudu didn't want anything to do with them. The only solution was in exile. Once again he boarded a ship and went north instead.

    Gudu sailed for a few months along the Sword Coast, hearing rumors about the city of Sundabar and the Silver Marches. It seemed the perfect place to settle as an independent adventurer and make some reputation while keeping a healthy distance with the politics of his native Calimport.


    Spoiler: Description and character
    Show
    Gudu is a tall muscular Djinni who seems to skip legs day every week. He wears his long light-blue hair and beard with pride and cockiness. He carries a large Falchion of the finest cali****e-craft. He is young for djinni standards but it is hard to tell for anyone.


    Outspoken but stern, he has a dark sense of humor and is quite the cynical. He is diplomatic but has no concerns when he feels he is right, which happens often. He is too proud and a bit hedonistic



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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    So then would it be, Say I combined the two Ideas together a bit

    Warforged | Ogre
    Level 1: Vigilante | Ogre
    Level 2: Vigilante | Ogre
    Level 3: Vigilante | Ogre


    And yeah I know about the ogre's largness reducing stealth.. except when they're a night stalker
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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Well the way I would fluff it is that they got a headband of intellect stuck on their head after killing someone, boom instant sentience, also instant regret for the horrific murder they just did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gildedragon View Post
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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Quote Originally Posted by Covenant12 View Post

    2-Unless we find a great solution beforehand, you may be stuck with +1 skill point or +1 hit point. Technically homebrew territory, but might copy something that works like rogue or bard. (and I haven't checked if either really works yet


    What about +1/4 inspiration points, like the Magus Arcane Pool.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    So how would 2 creatures with different body types work such as an elf rune hound.
    Thinking of class incarnate?

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Right, its unfortunate that I can't really tap into the racial spellcasting then (since it'll start at level 11ish as a first level sorcerer, and tap out at 5th by 20th level), but its not the biggest issue, and I can likely replicate it by going Rainbow Servant. Would I be able to swap the Air domain granted by the Rainbow Servant to Luck instead?

    The character concept is one I like doing a lot when I have the opportunity, which is a Gold Dragon "Paladin", perhaps with a lean towards joining the Talons of Justice once he gets far enough. Considering he'd be somewhat through the wyrmling stage at level 3, probably one that had a bit too much of a wanderlust and curiosity to stay in its parents nest. That, or if I work out a full savage progression to eventually get up to a full grown Young Adult (20th hit die), perhaps he was under some curse or botched reincarnation spell which which is slowly allowing his true age (and power) to recover over time. Thus the question about Rainbow Servant, as finishing that prestige class would allow me to replicate the ability gold dragon's have to pick up cleric spells (and help out in the healing and support department with cleric spells).

    Tier wise, I think 2 levels of paladin on a full sorceror build would still place it at tier 2, and would the pathfinder paladin or sorceror be usable? I'm not certain what bloodline I'd go down with the pathfinder sorceror (dragon on dragon feels... hilarious and might work if he was a half silver gold dragon). Party role rise, on top of being a front line dragon, the skills and spells would adopt a more support bardish role.

    Edit: Dragon Magazine 320 has a savage progression for all the metallic dragons I was going to use as a baseline. At third level (using LA -0 from the guide so combining level adjustments), it rewards;
    Racial Traits: Dragon type, Keen Senses, Fire subtype (Immunity to fire and 50% extra damage from cold). Medium creature, land speed of 30ft, swim speed of 30ft.
    "Class Traits": Bite 1d8, Water Breathing, +2 Natural Armor, +2 Cha, +2 Str, +2 Con, Speed 40ft (Swim Speed 40ft), Alternate Form 1/day, Weakening Breath (hilariously, the savage progression gives the weakening breath before the fire breath, which would be gained at the next hit die).

    Also, I wasn't planning on doing it, but I presume no alternate forming into a legendary animal from Monster Manual II. (Which is fine, I was thinking he'd stick between humanoid to blend in, or a normal talking wolf or raven via a pearl of speech).

    Also, although its not from a Forgotten Realms splat book, would it be possible to use the Strength of the True Form spell from Dragons of Eberron (either as a spell to use, or make into a magic item)?

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    So if I'm getting this right, we strip off the Racial Hit dice but earn them? like...One by one. So atm, we have three racial hit dice?
    Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Gonna play as a troll most likely. Using a pathfinder troll but hopefully advancing into other troll types like berserker once I run out of Racial Hit Dice
    Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
    the patience to accept what I cannot,
    and CHAINFISTS FOR HANDS. Amen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Quote Originally Posted by Auranghzeb View Post
    Ok, I'm using the Djinni you linked. And I fnished both Crunch and Fluff. I still got some gold to spend, but I'll get to that later.
    Looks very good, but hover may be more effective than improved flight as a feat. Either way retraining once you hit good maneuverability naturally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sutr
    The above question? + is there a repository of savage species progressions with the level adjustment reassignment thread LA that you like/would use?
    I will add the others I've made previously to this thread as example, 3 are in post #2 currently. But no, savage species has examples but the LA's would be way off. Basically homebrew sadly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triskavanski
    So then would it be, Say I combined the two Ideas together a bit

    Warforged | Ogre
    Level 1: Vigilante | Ogre
    Level 2: Vigilante | Ogre
    Level 3: Vigilante | Ogre


    And yeah I know about the ogre's largness reducing stealth.. except when they're a night stalker
    Sounds good. Ogre has 4 RHD and LA:+0, so you'd start with three of the four levels. I'm sure I'd give large size by level 3, and divide up Str, Con, and NA.
    Quote Originally Posted by ErebusVonMori
    Well the way I would fluff it is that they got a headband of intellect stuck on their head after killing someone, boom instant sentience, also instant regret for the horrific murder they just did.
    Which I'm fine with. Just hope you don't need skills badly. Even at -8, fairly high point buy you can start with 14 and end with 6 fairly easily. Still your Orc/Half-orc beatstick intelligence, which may be enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Auranghzeb
    What about +1/4 inspiration points, like the Magus Arcane Pool.
    That sounds fine. Starts with zero until level 4, but you are partway to level 4 at the start.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sutr
    So how would 2 creatures with different body types work such as an elf rune hound.
    Thinking of class incarnate?
    You would pretty much look like the normal hound. Arguably more elven than normal, but I'm not sure anyone could tell the difference. When the base humanoid traits make sense (most giant, monstrous humanoid, some outsiders etc) they'd be visible. How much you could really choose. Dwarf would be noticeably stockier though.

    The pathfinder druid-friendly class named incarnate? Looks fine, presumably you could start it at 4th level.

    @Amoren: By the time you get there, you could reasonably trade Air for Luck domain. You had a previous question I'm not sure I answered, campaign began at level 3 + 500 exp. The pathfinder versions of paladin and sorcerer are both allowed. I'm judging sorcadin build as T2, though it starts off a bit slow. The dragon magazine progression should be fine, I'll look it up tomorrow. For this purpose, if the thread said it is a -0 LA it will almost certainly be treated as +0. (it was balanced around single classed monster, not gestalt) And yes, alternate form is fine, abusive choices may need to be blocked. Strength of the true form is allowed as written. I will likely add it to wizard list as well. Note that it lasts one round and Persistent spell does not exist. I don't see an issue with a higher level version that lasts longer, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax
    So if I'm getting this right, we strip off the Racial Hit dice but earn them? like...One by one. So atm, we have three racial hit dice?
    Well, yes. You have a monster track so earning RHD/LA/templates is a way to look at it. So for third level a thri-kreen psion, say:

    ---- Psion Thri-kreen
    RHD 1 1d4 1d8
    BAB 1 +0.5 +1
    RHD 2 1d4 -
    BAB 2 +1 -
    RHD 3 1d4 1d8
    BAB 3 +1.5 +2
    Honestly not sure it helps. You take the best at each level, fractional saves and BAB from unearthed arcana. Thri-kreen has no 2nd level HD so you get psion there. Similar for saves and skills.
    Or: HD 2d8+1d4 + 3Xbonus, BAB: 2+0.5 = 2.5 (rounded down to 2)

    Troll would work well enough 3.5 or pathfinder. Did you mean to link rock troll? Not sure I'd be willing to have something that can't ever go near sunlight. I don't see the campaign shifting to the underdark soon or similar.

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    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    I'll stop being so finicky and narrow down what I want to play tomorrow. That's a fair point about the phase spider though; even in real games solo dungeon scouting missions eat up time. I wouldn't want to force people to slog through that on PBP.

    The imp would be more of a redemptive story. The idea is that the goodly outsider sensed some remorse/regrets related to the person inquired about, and 'tricked' the imp into doing good until they more or less begin to want to do it, with the convenient excuse that they like, totally have to and stuff. As such the question of what happens when an [Evil] creature isn't being Evil enough may come up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Covenant12 View Post
    3.5 Expanded psionics handbook kineticist is encouraged. Pathfinder 1.0 had a kineticist that was odd and I'd need to review for understanding. But I don't believe it was high powered. Which version?
    PF Kineticist is more akin to a 3.5 Warlock than to the same-name psionics class. They're a fair bit better than a vanilla warlock in terms of raw damage, barring Eldritch Glaive shenanigans. But they're much worse at literally everything else.

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