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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Xenopax's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Oooh if path of war is a thing, I might remake my sheet. Get some sexy primal fury and broken blade in there to augment troll weapons
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  2. - Top - End - #62
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Would we be using the stock version of Vow of Poverty, or is there some brew version you would prefer?

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    If this has been answered I missed it, but what about skipped HD in the monster progressions in SS? Do we fill those in with HD from the other side of the gestalt?
    "Can you do science to it?"
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Would we be using the stock version of Vow of Poverty, or is there some brew version you would prefer?
    Vow of Poverty is not buffed from 3.5, allowed but not encouraged. Vow of Peace and Vow of Non-violence are on the ban list.

    I try to be strict but fair on this. Wizards may have their spellbook, casters a spell component pouch, divine caster a holy symbol (generally wooden). No you won't break your vow by using a door. If party members donate a fraction of their gold to a pool for wands of CLW/lesser vigor, restoration, and raise dead you can as well.
    Most of your share of the treasure must be taken, and then donated to something that is not your party members. BoED and the above pretty much says all you can carry. You can borrow party lesser vigor/restorations wands, use them, then give them back. You very close to never may use a permanent magic item. You may never wear one.
    Exalted feats users, similar to paladins, follow a strict path as well. Choose this doubly-carefully.

    Spoiler: Troll
    Show
    Troll, in the SRD. 6 RHD and +0 LA.

    Racial Traits:
    • Starting Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha.
      Size: Trolls begin a Medium size, increasing to Large(tall) at level 3, increasing reach to 10'.
      Speed: Troll land speed is 30', and does not change with level.
      Darkvision 60', and Low-light vision (2Xhuman). Darkvision increases to 90' where noted.
      Automatic Languages: Giant Bonus languages: Common, Orc and as class.
      Regeneration: Troll have regeneration per table. Fire and acid do normal damage to a troll.
      Scent: standard MM 3.5 version.

    Class Skills:
    The troll's class skills are: Perception, Survival and by class.
    Class Features:
    Weapon and Armor proficiency: As giants, trolls are proficient with simple and martial weapons, as well as its natural weapons. Armor and shield only from class levels.
    Bite: A bite is a natural attack. Beginning at 1st level, a troll deals 1d4 points of damage plus its Strength modifier when making a bite attack. At 4th level the base damage rises to 1d6. Because a bite is a natural attack, a troll can use the full attack to attack with a melee weapon and follow up with its bite attack as a secondary attack with a -5 penalty. A bite as a secondary attack adds only one half its strength modifier. It does get iterative attacks (multiple attacks with the same weapon at a cumulative -5 penalty), if it is entitled to any, with its melee weapon (but not with its bite) when using such an attack routine.
    Claws: A troll begins with 2 claw attacks at 1d4+Str bonus damage each. At 3rd level these increase to 1d6+Str bonus. A troll may attack with 2 claws at full attack bonus and a bite at -5 penalty, if not using weapons.
    Rend: A troll gains the ability to rend at level 4, doing 1d8+1.5*Str bonus when it hits an opponent with both claws. At level 6, this increases to 2d6+1.5*Str.
    Natural Armor: A troll has natural armor as per table.

    Troll:
    Level Hit Dice BAB Fort Ref Will Skill Points Special
    1st 1d8 +0 +2 +0 +0 (4+ Int mod) Feat, Str +2, Dex +2, Con +2, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -4, +1 natural armor, bite 1d4, claws 1d4, regeneration 1
    2nd 2d8 +1 +3 +0 +0 (4+ Int mod) Str +2(+4), Con +2(+4)+2 natural armor, regeneration 2
    3rd 3d8 +2 +3 +1 +0 (4+ Int mod) Feat, Str +2(+6), Con +2(+6), +2 natural armor, claws 1d6, Large size.
    4th 4d8 +3 +4 +1 +1 (4+ Int mod) Str +2(+8), Con +2(+8), +3 natural armor, bite 1d6, rend 1d8, regeneration 3
    5th 5d8 +3 +4 +1 +1 (4+ Int mod) Feat, Str +2(+10), Dex +2(+4), Con +2(+10), +4 natural armor, darkvision 90', regeneration 4
    6th 6d8 +4 +5 +2 +1 (4+ Int mod) Str +2(+12), Con +2(+12), +5 natural armor, rend 2d6, regeneration 5

    Spoiler: Lantern Archon
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    Lantern Archon, which is in the SRD. LA is +3 per the LA assignment thread.

    Racial Traits:
    • Starting Ability Score Adjustments: -8 Str (minor mercy here), -4 Int.
      Speed: Lantern Archons do not natively have a land speed. At level 1, they have (Ex) flight with perfect maneuverability at speed 30. This increases per table.
      Size: lantern archons are size Small.
      Darkvision 60', and Low-light vision (2Xhuman)
      Automatic Languages: Common, Celestial. Bonus languages: regional, Infernal, Abyssal, and as class. Also see tongues.
      Lawful and good subtype, even if its current alignment is neither.
      Outsides breathe, but do not need to sleep or eat. (they can sleep or eat if they wish)
      Immune to petrification.
      Resistant to electricity, per table. Immune to electricity at level 4.
      Damage reduction, evil and magic. Value per table.
      +4 racial bonus on saves against poison.

    Class Skills:
    The lantern archon's class skills are: Diplomacy, Stealth, Acrobatics, Perception, Sense Motive, Athletics, Knowledge(the Planes) and by class.
    Class Features:
    Weapon and Armor proficiency: As outsiders, lantern archons are proficient with simple and martial weapons, as well as its light rays. Armor and shield proficiencies are only gained by class levels.
    Spell-Like Abilities: The lantern archon has spell-like abilities that it casts at its character level. The lantern archon can cast detect evil and aid at will. The lantern archon can cast continual flame a number of times per day equal to its character level. At level 4, the lantern archon can cast aid and continual flame at will. Caster level equals character level.
    Teleport: The lantern archon gains improving and increasing use of a teleport ability as it advances. This is a (Su) ability. All of these are limited to self only and 50 lbs of objects. No creatures of any type are allowed, excepting familiars. These are all cast at character level, or caster level 14, whichever is higher.
    At level 1, the lantern archon may cast dimension door once per day per character level. At level 2, the lantern archon may substitute 1 use of teleport for dimension door, increasing teleport usage by one per character level. At level 3, the lantern archon may substitute greater teleport once per day for a use of dimension door. At level 4, dimension door, teleport, and greater teleport are usable at-will. For example, a level 3 lantern archon has 3 uses of dimension door per day. 2 of these may be teleport, and 1 may be greater teleport.
    Aura of Menace:Detailed in the MM 3.5 or SRD, -1 penalty at 2nd level, -2 penalty at 4th. This generally cannot be suppressed, save for antimagic effects and dead magic zones. If it somehow is in some other way, the lantern archon can reactivate it once a turn as a free action, but only during its turn.
    Immunity to petrification.
    Electrical resistance: A lantern archon gains increasing electrical resistance as it levels. At level 4, it gains electrical immunity.
    A lantern archon's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as good-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Its light rays inherently bypass all damage reduction
    Tongues(Su): As MM 3.5/SRD, caster level 14 always active.
    Protection from Evil: A lantern archon has a constant effect of protection from evil. This is a (Su) ability, and is similar in restriction to aura of menace, above.
    Magic Circle against Evil: A lantern archon at level 4 gains a constant effect of magic circle against evil. This is a (Su) ability, and replaces the protection from evil effect.
    Light Rays: A lantern archon may make an attack with a light ray at 1d6 damage at 30' as a ranged touch attack. (no range increment). It may make 2 attacks with a full attack.

    Lantern Archon:
    Level Hit Dice BAB Fort Ref Will Skill Points Special
    1st 1d8 +1 +2 +2 +2 (10+ Int mod) Feat, +1 natural armor, -8 Str, -4 Int, 2 light rays 1d6, dimension door, protection from evil, DR 3
    2nd 1d8 +1 +2 +2 +2 --- +2 natural armor, flight 40', electrical resistance 20, DR 5
    3rd 1d8 +1 +2 +2 +2 --- +3 natural armor, flight 50', electrical resistance 30, DR 7
    4th 1d8 +1 +2 +2 +2 --- +4 natural armor, aura of menace -2, flight 60', electrical immunity, magic circle against evil, DR 10

    Spoiler: Doppleganger
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    Doppleganger 4 Monstrous Humanoid RHD, +0 LA from thread.

    Racial Traits:
    • Starting Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Int, +2 Wis.
      Speed: A doppleganger's land speed is 30 feet.
      Darkvision 60'
      Automatic Languages: Common, regional Bonus languages: Auran, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Giant, Terran, and as class.
      Change Shape (Su): A doppelganger can assume the shape of any Small or Medium humanoid. In humanoid form, the doppelganger loses its natural attacks. A doppelganger can remain in its humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a doppelganger reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.
      Detect Thoughts (Su): A doppelganger can continuously use detect thoughts as the spell (caster level 18th; Will DC 13 negates). It can suppress or resume this ability as a free action. The save DC is Charisma-based.
      Immunity to sleep and charm effects.
      Skill bonuses: racial bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks equal to doppleganger level. When using its change shape ability, a doppelganger gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. If it can read an opponentís mind, it gets a further +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.


    Class Skills:
    The doppleganger's class skills are: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Perception, Sense Motive, and by class.
    Class Features:
    Weapon and Armor proficiency: As monstrous humanoids, dopplegangers are proficient with simple weapons and their slam attack. Dopplegangers gain other weapons or armor from class levels.
    Natural Armor: A doppleganger has a natural armor bonus equal to its doppleganger levels.

    Doppleganger:
    Level Hit Dice BAB Fort Ref Will Skill Points Special
    1st 1d8 +1 +0 +2 +2 (4+ Int mod) Feat, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor
    2nd 2d8 +2 +0 +3 +3 (4+ Int mod) +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
    3rd 3d8 +3 +1 +3 +3 (4+ Int mod) Feat, +2 Str, +2 Int, +3 natural armor
    4th 4d8 +4 +1 +4 +4 (4+ Int mod) +2 Wis (+4), +4 natural armor


    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyvurg
    If this has been answered I missed it, but what about skipped HD in the monster progressions in SS? Do we fill those in with HD from the other side of the gestalt?
    You get the class HD, BAB, Skills, and saves. (BAB and saves fractional per Unearthed Arcana) So yes.

    Path of War I'd be willing to do, alignment refluff would likely work. Not changing many mechanics as I'd have to learn most of them. If you use this please don't add any other complex systems. Generally any 3.5/Pathfinder feat, class, or prestige class is still fine.

    For reference, intimidate (and poison, incidentally) are not evil. Torture uses the intimidate mechanic, and is always evil. Intimidate with a dagger for a circumstance bonus is evil. Bad cop/Good cop is not, "You'd really feel better if you fully confess, it would make your life easier. I'll put in a good word with the district attorney, you'd really be doing yourself a favor." Intimidate in combat is more imposing presence.
    Last edited by Covenant12; 2019-09-05 at 08:29 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Missed mine.

    Spoiler
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ColouredWalker View Post
    *Whittling down ideas*
    Ok, noting that TOB is available, how do you feel about Path of War? (Pathfinder's version), and how would you feel about refluffing Black Seraph Style (Evil/Intimidation martial arts) and a couple of damned feats into 'Wrathful Archon Style' (Good/Intimidation) and 'Blessed/Devoted' feats?
    If you're anti Path of War but ok with refluffing damned feats, I'll go Lizardfolk/X//Hobgoblin/Cavalier (A Terrifying Desert Lizardfolk). If pro path of war and refluff, than I'll probably go Kasatha/Warlord (4 armed desert lizardfolk of notable courage and charisma, who can also be truly terrifying).

    If anti path of war and refluff, then I'll go Kasatha/Fighter (Rough Rider) [Desert Lizardfolk mounted expert.]


    As for the Lizardfolk side, you said you wanted a minimum of 10 levels of advancement.

    If you're pro path of war or refluffing, I'm thinking Lizardfolk (2)/Giant Creature (1, Blackscale Lizardfolk)/Celestial Creature (1)/Advanced Creature (1)/Half Celestial (2)/Half Dragon (2)/Half Celestial (1). In this case, it'd be a Lizardfolk slowly coming into his divine and draconic nature.

    If you'd rather the fighter route, than I'm thinking Lizardfolk (2)/Giant Creature (1, Blackscale Lizardfolk)/Advanced Creature (1)/Draconic (1)/Half Dragon (2)/Monster of Legend (2?)
    If Monster of Legend is stretched over 3 levels that makes 10. I'm having trouble thinking of another level.



    Also, idea for my mount. How would you feel about a Wilderness Cohort eventually combined with a cohort (Leadership or Draconic Cohort. Maybe Squire which evolves into Draconic Cohort late and one side being an appropriate class such as warrior or barbarian), becoming a more draconic animal that's a somewhat dim but still friendly companion? Feel free to say no to this one, as it's more of a random idea.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Rhyvurg's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Okay, cool. I'll get to work on a character to submit.
    "Can you do science to it?"
    "I can do science to anything."


  7. - Top - End - #67
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    @5ColouredWalker: I didn't miss it, but I overlooked the last portion. Previous post reference to path of war and intimidate were intended for your questions.

    That's the second person who read a minimum of 10 levels. I don't see where I said that, if I did I mistyped and apologize. 10 RHD+LA combined is the maximum as a rule. Minimum is 3, but 5 would be better. The 3-5 can include LA from templates.

    Generally I'm not fond of the 3.5 fighter or even pathfinder fighter. Not so much with monster boosts, but they can be very underpowered. If you want beatstick I'd try at least for a tier three balance point. (Warblade20 is perfectly fine)

    Leadership and friends are on the ban list. Partly too powerful, more importantly slows the game too much with 5+ people. Wild cohort or animal companion is fine if you want a decent mount.

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Consider me blind.
    Ok, after some consideration, I'm looking at Fighter (Myrmidon/Rough Rider) 20, which is probably tier 3 for 40 point buy. General build is going to be cavalry/intimidation. I be sad that there's no way to swap Myrmidon (Fighter archetype, swap half feats for 2/3rds maneuver progression and gunslinger-style grit) to charisma based instead of wis, but I feel like I need to go that end to make things work feat wise. If I was going to drop the mounted stuff, I might go Warlord (Steel Fist) for 'Suddenly an angry lizardfolk slaps the crap out of you!'.

    And mea-culpa on the monster wise. Going to go for Half-Dragon for the next template though, spread over two levels based on the PF version. Blue for dragon type (Going to be a desert lizardfolk after all.) I'll probably have to swap my mount for a flier eventually but for now giant crocs are where it's at.

    *looks at big 16 and thinks of potential questions*
    PF traits are normally pegged at 1/2 a feat in power, with there being a feat that grants two traits, just pointing that out.

    On Wild Cohort plans, I plan on leaving that empty until level 4. Is the Magebred template acceptable? If so, given I'm not a druid, can I ignore the 'druids don't take magebred companions' exception and have magebred companions at the requirement of paying the price for them? Also, PF has Crocodile is rather similar to the 3.5, albeit being a large version, can I take a Crocodile for my level 4 wilderness cohort when/if that happens? [A 3.5 croc is medium, 19 str, and has improved grab/hold breath. A PF is large (Worse ac and hit by 1), 17 str (Making damage even out due to str acounting for die difference and causing a total -2 hit difference), and adds Death Roll (Bite damage and prone as grapple option) and has sprint (+20ft speed/1 per minute))

    This should be the last of all questions, and I'll start getting to work on the mechanics of my character, Hhal'shur Fourclaw.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Quote Originally Posted by Covenant12 View Post
    Vow of Poverty is not buffed from 3.5, allowed but not encouraged. Vow of Peace and Vow of Non-violence are on the ban list.

    I try to be strict but fair on this. Wizards may have their spellbook, casters a spell component pouch, divine caster a holy symbol (generally wooden). No you won't break your vow by using a door. If party members donate a fraction of their gold to a pool for wands of CLW/lesser vigor, restoration, and raise dead you can as well.
    Most of your share of the treasure must be taken, and then donated to something that is not your party members. BoED and the above pretty much says all you can carry. You can borrow party lesser vigor/restorations wands, use them, then give them back. You very close to never may use a permanent magic item. You may never wear one.
    Exalted feats users, similar to paladins, follow a strict path as well. Choose this doubly-carefully.

    Spoiler: Lantern Archon
    Show
    Lantern Archon, which is in the SRD. LA is +3 per the LA assignment thread.

    Racial Traits:
    • Starting Ability Score Adjustments: -8 Str (minor mercy here), -4 Int.
      Speed: Lantern Archons do not natively have a land speed. At level 1, they have (Ex) flight with perfect maneuverability at speed 30. This increases per table.
      Size: lantern archons are size Small.
      Darkvision 60', and Low-light vision (2Xhuman)
      Automatic Languages: Common, Celestial. Bonus languages: regional, Infernal, Abyssal, and as class. Also see tongues.
      Lawful and good subtype, even if its current alignment is neither.
      Outsides breathe, but do not need to sleep or eat. (they can sleep or eat if they wish)
      Immune to petrification.
      Resistant to electricity, per table. Immune to electricity at level 4.
      Damage reduction, evil and magic. Value per table.
      +4 racial bonus on saves against poison.

    Class Skills:
    The lantern archon's class skills are: Diplomacy, Stealth, Acrobatics, Perception, Sense Motive, Athletics, Knowledge(the Planes) and by class.
    Class Features:
    Weapon and Armor proficiency: As outsiders, lantern archons are proficient with simple and martial weapons, as well as its light rays. Armor and shield proficiencies are only gained by class levels.
    Spell-Like Abilities: The lantern archon has spell-like abilities that it casts at its character level. The lantern archon can cast detect evil and aid at will. The lantern archon can cast continual flame a number of times per day equal to its character level. At level 4, the lantern archon can cast aid and continual flame at will. Caster level equals character level.
    Teleport: The lantern archon gains improving and increasing use of a teleport ability as it advances. This is a (Su) ability. All of these are limited to self only and 50 lbs of objects. No creatures of any type are allowed, excepting familiars. These are all cast at character level, or caster level 14, whichever is higher.
    At level 1, the lantern archon may cast dimension door once per day per character level. At level 2, the lantern archon may substitute 1 use of teleport for dimension door, increasing teleport usage by one per character level. At level 3, the lantern archon may substitute greater teleport once per day for a use of dimension door. At level 4, dimension door, teleport, and greater teleport are usable at-will. For example, a level 3 lantern archon has 3 uses of dimension door per day. 2 of these may be teleport, and 1 may be greater teleport.
    Aura of Menace:Detailed in the MM 3.5 or SRD, -1 penalty at 2nd level, -2 penalty at 4th. This generally cannot be suppressed, save for antimagic effects and dead magic zones. If it somehow is in some other way, the lantern archon can reactivate it once a turn as a free action, but only during its turn.
    Immunity to petrification.
    Electrical resistance: A lantern archon gains increasing electrical resistance as it levels. At level 4, it gains electrical immunity.
    A lantern archon's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as good-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Its light rays inherently bypass all damage reduction
    Tongues(Su): As MM 3.5/SRD, caster level 14 always active.
    Protection from Evil: A lantern archon has a constant effect of protection from evil. This is a (Su) ability, and is similar in restriction to aura of menace, above.
    Magic Circle against Evil: A lantern archon at level 4 gains a constant effect of magic circle against evil. This is a (Su) ability, and replaces the protection from evil effect.
    Light Rays: A lantern archon may make an attack with a light ray at 1d6 damage at 30' as a ranged touch attack. (no range increment). It may make 2 attacks with a full attack.

    Lantern Archon:
    Level Hit Dice BAB Fort Ref Will Skill Points Special
    1st 1d8 +1 +2 +2 +2 (10+ Int mod) Feat, +1 natural armor, -8 Str, -4 Int, 2 light rays 1d6, dimension door, protection from evil, DR 3
    2nd 1d8 +1 +2 +2 +2 --- +2 natural armor, flight 40', electrical resistance 20, DR 5
    3rd 1d8 +1 +2 +2 +2 --- +3 natural armor, flight 50', electrical resistance 30, DR 7
    4th 1d8 +1 +2 +2 +2 --- +4 natural armor, aura of menace -2, flight 60', electrical immunity, magic circle against evil, DR 10
    While I feel your pain on the VoP, and really wish I could just use conventional equipment, the problem is a Lantern Archon has no real discernable anatomy, just really just a tangible ball of light as I discern it. Therefore, no realistic slots other than Torso/Body/Head(maybe)/(Headband(maybe). No arms or legs makes me think Still spell is almost mandatory for casting spells with somatic components, unless you rule that the way the archon moves counts as a somatic component. I was planning on taking the birthmark trait for the holy symbol, and eschew materials for material components. Despite all of this, you can sneak attack a lantern archon, and you can grapple one as well. Don't get me wrong, not complaining, part of the fun of this build is trying to creatively overcome the limitations.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    While I feel your pain on the VoP, and really wish I could just use conventional equipment, the problem is a Lantern Archon has no real discernable anatomy, just really just a tangible ball of light as I discern it. Therefore, no realistic slots other than Torso/Body/Head(maybe)/(Headband(maybe). No arms or legs makes me think Still spell is almost mandatory for casting spells with somatic components, unless you rule that the way the archon moves counts as a somatic component. I was planning on taking the birthmark trait for the holy symbol, and eschew materials for material components. Despite all of this, you can sneak attack a lantern archon, and you can grapple one as well. Don't get me wrong, not complaining, part of the fun of this build is trying to creatively overcome the limitations.
    Maybe incarnum could be used for 'phantom' magic item slot usage? xD
    And if you do go with non-standard magic item slots, I think pathfinder has a rough guide for what different creatures can use. I don't think it lists lantern archon explicitly, but its unusual category (which includes creeping vines) has belt and eyes, which would be the equivalent of belt and face in 3.5, irrc.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Busy towards end of this week, I'll make an effort to be more caught on homework going forward.

    @Amoren: Looks very good, I'll take a detailed look later today.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5ColouredWalker
    Ok, after some consideration, I'm looking at Fighter (Myrmidon/Rough Rider) 20, which is probably tier 3 for 40 point buy. General build is going to be cavalry/intimidation. I be sad that there's no way to swap Myrmidon (Fighter archetype, swap half feats for 2/3rds maneuver progression and gunslinger-style grit) to charisma based instead of wis, but I feel like I need to go that end to make things work feat wise. If I was going to drop the mounted stuff, I might go Warlord (Steel Fist) for 'Suddenly an angry lizardfolk slaps the crap out of you!'.

    *looks at big 16 and thinks of potential questions*
    PF traits are normally pegged at 1/2 a feat in power, with there being a feat that grants two traits, just pointing that out.

    On Wild Cohort plans, I plan on leaving that empty until level 4. Is the Magebred template acceptable? If so, given I'm not a druid, can I ignore the 'druids don't take magebred companions' exception and have magebred companions at the requirement of paying the price for them? Also, PF has Crocodile is rather similar to the 3.5, albeit being a large version, can I take a Crocodile for my level 4 wilderness cohort when/if that happens? [A 3.5 croc is medium, 19 str, and has improved grab/hold breath. A PF is large (Worse ac and hit by 1), 17 str (Making damage even out due to str acounting for die difference and causing a total -2 hit difference), and adds Death Roll (Bite damage and prone as grapple option) and has sprint (+20ft speed/1 per minute))
    Stat swaps I'm more willing to do, if I think it really makes sense. That may well work.

    Then going forward that feat is approved. It is possible I looked at a few of the most powerful traits and eyeball'ed incorrectly. It's been awhile on that.

    You could take a magebred wild cohort/animal companion, yes. (for non-druids) And yes, you'd pay gold for it instead of 24 hour ritual. The same applies to riding dogs trained for war (basically, add wolf trip, same stats). Magebred is a real power boost, but not really worth an entire category/tier on the animal companion list. At worst, magebred bumps it up one tier. I'll look at it later this weekend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient
    While I feel your pain on the VoP, and really wish I could just use conventional equipment, the problem is a Lantern Archon has no real discernable anatomy, just really just a tangible ball of light as I discern it. Therefore, no realistic slots other than Torso/Body/Head(maybe)/(Headband(maybe). No arms or legs makes me think Still spell is almost mandatory for casting spells with somatic components, unless you rule that the way the archon moves counts as a somatic component. I was planning on taking the birthmark trait for the holy symbol, and eschew materials for material components. Despite all of this, you can sneak attack a lantern archon, and you can grapple one as well. Don't get me wrong, not complaining, part of the fun of this build is trying to creatively overcome the limitations.
    I think savage species had a workaround for somatic components without hands/arms, it may have been a feat. There was a discussion in the LA adjustment about this, and the Magic Item Compendium rule on it. I'm unhappy with the strife I caused there inadvertently, but the consensus was you have all item slots (sans weapon, armor, shield) unless its blatantly stupid. And maybe even then. You can likely use significant magic items. You may struggle to manipulate them, but you can put on a headband and necklace.

    Edit: Monster Manual page 315, under "Spells". If you lack hands or arms you can provide the component by moving your body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amoren
    Maybe incarnum could be used for 'phantom' magic item slot usage? xD
    And if you do go with non-standard magic item slots, I think pathfinder has a rough guide for what different creatures can use. I don't think it lists lantern archon explicitly, but its unusual category (which includes creeping vines) has belt and eyes, which would be the equivalent of belt and face in 3.5, irrc.
    If you have a link I'd appreciate it. I'd likely go with the more generous of 3.5 and pathfinder 1.0. May not get to that until tomorrow.
    Last edited by Covenant12; 2019-09-07 at 09:27 AM. Reason: Edit: Found somatic component ruling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Covenant12 View Post
    If you have a link I'd appreciate it. I'd likely go with the more generous of 3.5 and pathfinder 1.0. May not get to that until tomorrow.

    Its fortunately just on the page for the magic items on pathfinder d20srd.com, scrolling down a bit to Magic Items for Animals.

    I'm (personally) hoping to use the statement from Draconomicon that dragons can basically use any magic item slot, at least with things designed for their body. Otherwise not getting the use of rings with the rings meant for draconic use will be unfortunate. :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amoren View Post
    Its fortunately just on the page for the magic items on pathfinder d20srd.com, scrolling down a bit to Magic Items for Animals.

    I'm (personally) hoping to use the statement from Draconomicon that dragons can basically use any magic item slot, at least with things designed for their body. Otherwise not getting the use of rings with the rings meant for draconic use will be unfortunate. :P
    I appreciate it, more familiar with 3.5 and its SRD than pathfinder.

    And I've read Draconomicon carefully, and it was quite thorough. Excepting weapons, armor, and shields magic items are clear. Colossal red dragons can wear any magic items humans can, and have the same slots. There may be wing magic items somewhere dragons can wear that humans can't, but compete with a human body slot. But the reverse is never true, to my memory.

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    The wing magic items can usually be worn as adornments to a human's cape or cloak, because of how magic items resize, but yeah. (Draconomicom is one of my favorite dnd books purely because of how dense the fluff for it is).

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    Here is the Lantern Archon, Glymir, to date. I made extensive use of the Frank and K scaling feats, let me know if it is too much.

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    Last night of interest! I'm still kind of on the fence, but I guess I need to say something before it's closed, huh?

    The reason I say I'm on the fence is that I suspect the optimization level at work is going to be higher than I have the capacity to keep up with, but the general tone of the setting looks fun.

    Idea 1: Dannet Forger
    - A somewhat impulsive young man who romanticizes the idea of the underground rebel. As far as he knows or cares, he's a tiefling fighter/rogue/sorcerer who specializes in enchantment spells. Being young, his most important existing relationships are with his parents: a tiefling politician who pushes in favor of monsters like the PCs to the powers that be, and the mystery man who helped her get the influence she has. I made an Incubus advancement class a long time ago for another campaign, albeit an ECL 12 version. The assignment thread seemed to favor cutting it down to ECL 8 thanks to an argument over whether it should be 7 or 9. Anything less than 9 seems insane in a gestalt game, though.

    Anyway, here's what I came up with. You'll want to edit it to suit the game, but hopefully having this in front of you will at least mean it's less work.
    Spoiler: The Class
    Show
    Level Hit Dice BAB Fort/Ref/Will Features AC Bonus Damage Reduction
    1 1d8 +1 +2/+2/+2 Outsider(CE), Immunity to Poison, AC Bonus, Detect Good +3 -
    2 1d8 +1 +2/+2/+2 +2 to all ability scores, Change Shape, Charm Person +4 -
    3 2d8 +2 +3/+3/+3 Resist Electricity 10, Resist Acid, Cold, and Fire 5, Claws 1d6 +4 -
    4 2d8 +2 +3/+3/+3 +2 Int, +2 Cha, Telepathy 100 ft., Detect Thoughts +5 2/Cold Iron or Good
    5 3d8 +3 +3/+3/+3 Superior Senses +8, Spell Resistance(LV+6) +5 2/Cold Iron or Good
    6 3d8 +3 +3/+3/+3 +2 Cha, Energy-draining Kiss, Suggestion, Tongues +6 4/Cold Iron or Good
    7 4d8 +4 +4/+4/+4 Immunity to Electricity, Resist Acid, Cold and Fire 10, Wings +6 4/Cold Iron or Good
    8 4d8 +4 +4/+4/+4 +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, Charm Monster +7 6/Cold Iron or Good
    9 5d8 +5 +4/+4/+4 Sexy Armor(light), Teleport +7 6/Cold Iron or Good
    10 5d8 +5 +4/+4/+4 +2 Cha, Summon Vrock(30%, 1/day) +8 8/Cold Iron or Good
    11 6d8 +6/+1 +5/+5/+5 Sexy Armor(any), Greater Teleport +8 8/Cold Iron or Good
    12 6d8 +6/+1 +5/+5/+5 +6 Cha, Ethereal Jaunt +9 10/Cold Iron or Good

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Outsiders are proficient with simple and martial weapons but not with any armor or shields.

    Skills: 8+Int Modifier per level. Class skills are Athletics, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge(History), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty), Knowledge(Religion), Knowledge (The Planes), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Search, Spellcraft and Spot.

    Spell-like abilities: All abilities in italics are spell-like abilities. They use their sor/wiz spell levels and charisma for purposes of save DCs, have a caster level equal to the user's ECL, and are usable at will. Teleport, Greater Teleport, and Ethereal Jaunt only affect the user, one carry-on bag and one personal item. Any combination of equipment totaling more than 50 lbs. will need to be checked on the jet bridge.

    Outsider(CE): Succubi are outsiders with the Chaotic and Evil subtypes. This gives them Darkvision for free to a range of 60 ft.

    AC Bonus: Incubi gain the listed bonus to Natural Armor as long as they are not wearing armor. Anything that covers enough to protect them from harm also ruins their aesthetic.

    Change Shape: Starting at level 2, an incubus can assume the form of a small or medium humanoid for a +10 bonus on disguise checks.

    Claws: A 3rd-level succubus has two claws with a damage base of 1d6. They count as Chaotic and Evil for overcoming damage reduction.

    Superior Senses: At 5th level, a Succubus gains a +8 racial bonus on spot and listen checks. (I was going to make this a +2 bonus and scale it gradually to make up for lost skill ranks, but this level needed something more than SR 11 and it's about where Improved Invisibility hits anyway so whatever.)

    Spell Resistance: At 5th level, an Incubus gains spell resistance equal to their level +6, to a maximum of SR 18 at 12th level.

    Energy-draining Kiss: A kiss or similarly intimate interaction with an succubus - requiring a grapple if used in combat - bestows one negative level as though from a 3rd-level touch spell. The victim must also make a save against a Suggestion to accept the incubus' next kiss, even if no words are exchanged.

    Wings: At 7th level, the incubus gains wings and a fly speed of 50 ft.(Average).

    Sexy Armor: On reaching 9th level, a succubus can wear light armor and still retain their natural armor bonus. At 11th level, this applies to any armor they deign to wear. Note that this feature doesn't grant any proficiency with said armor.

    Summon Vrock: 0/10, very rude, refused to clean up fungal spores, will not summon again

    Spoiler: A condensed version I guess??
    Show
    Level Hit Dice BAB Fort/Ref/Will Features AC Bonus Damage Reduction
    1 1d8 +1 +2/+2/+2 +2 Cha, Outsider(CE), Immunity to Poison, AC Bonus, Detect Good +2 -
    2 2d8 +2 +3/+3/+3 +2 to all ability scores, Change Shape, Charm Person +3 -
    3 2d8 +2 +3/+3/+3 +2 Cha, Resist Electricity 10, Resist Acid, Cold, and Fire 5, Claws 1d6 +4 5/Cold Iron or Good
    4 3d8 +3 +3/+3/+3 +2 Int, +2 Cha, Telepathy 100 ft., Detect Thoughts +5 5/Cold Iron or Good
    5 4d8 +4 +4/+4/+4 +2 Cha, Superior Senses +8, Spell Resistance(LV+10) +6 5/Cold Iron or Good
    6 4d8 +4 +4/+4/+4 +2 Cha, Energy-draining Kiss, Suggestion, Tongues +7 10/Cold Iron or Good
    7 5d8 +5 +4/+4/+4 +2 Cha, Immunity to Electricity, Resist Acid, Cold and Fire 10, Wings +8 10/Cold Iron or Good
    8 6d8 +6/+1 +5/+5/+5 +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, Charm Monster +9 10/Cold Iron or Good
    9 6d8 +6/+1 +5/+5/+5 Sexy Armor(Any), Summon Vrock(30%, 1/day), Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Teleport +9 10/Cold Iron or Good

    Everything obtained at level 9 can be folded into level 8 for a +2 LA version; the third point of LA is there mainly because of those crazy capstones.


    Idea 2: Green Hag!
    - Most people just think of her as a gross old lady, but she knows what she is and has been this way for a long time. She's the same age of some elder dwarves, and despite obviously being a monster she seems to get along with them just fine. They must be on the same ornery wavelength. She runs an old boat shack and fishes for a living.
    Last edited by Dr.Gunsforhands; 2019-09-08 at 05:22 AM.
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    Linking Hhal'shul Fourclaw before I forget to. Just need to move everything onto the sheet and pick equipment since I've got most of the build planned out, it's just putting things on and closing tabs.
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    At the moment my Warforged Doppleganger
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    Awww hell I need to finish my sheet. Backstorys been taking a lot of my time lmao. To mythweavers, Away!
    Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
    the patience to accept what I cannot,
    and CHAINFISTS FOR HANDS. Amen.
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    Posting Gudu again. Just in case.


    Spoiler: A djinni in Sundabar
    Show
    Gudu Sileso
    m CG Athasian Human-Djinni Factotum, Level 3, Init 7, HP 33/33, Speed Land 30 fly 40(Average)
    AC 18, Touch 13, Flat-footed 15, CMD 20, Fort 5, Ref 6, Will 5, CMB +7, Base Attack Bonus 2 /3
    Falchion +8 (2d4+7, 18-20x2)
    MW Composite longbow +6 (1d8+5, X3)
    Chainshirt MW (+4 Armor, +3 Dex, +1 Deflect)
    Abilities Str 20, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 14, Cha 14
    Condition None





    Spoiler: Background
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    He who does it all

    Pasha Pook was a greatly misunderstood man. At least in the mind of Gudu. It was true that his ambition was boundless, and in the end, had cost him his life. But to Gudu, Pook had always been a good master. The young Djinni had come to this world through the Taros Hoop, which had mysteriously transformed him into a partially human form, almost as if his soul had been split in two.

    It was in Pook's village and harem that Gudu first discovered the manuscripts of the great Volo. And he spent his waking hours reading about the Realms and discussing legends with Pook, even if the wizard LaValle was not very found of Gudu. Pook was a good master.

    However, he was also an evil man. That's why Gudu left his palace shortly after his death. By then, Gudu had made up his mind. He would become a writer, like Volo.

    First, he traveled south, to the lands of the Yuanti and the jungle dwarfs. Then along the shinning south and into Cormyr. Gudu absorbed everything. After a decade he came back to Calimport. But, the political intrigue of the city was a whirlwind much more dangerous than any storm in the sea. And after refusing to join the shadow guild for the third time, Gudu decided that leaving for good was the best option.

    He hopped on board a ship to the north. Wishing to see Candlekeep and the Sword Coast. For years he traveled, and while in Candlekeep he finished his first book and from there he contacted a literary agent in Silverymoon. He sent his manuscript, but he hasn't heard back and now is going to Sundabar and from there into the Silver Marches.
    Last edited by Auranghzeb; 2019-09-09 at 01:43 PM.

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    I don't know what pointbuy value I get
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triskavanski View Post
    I don't know what pointbuy value I get
    If I had to make a guess, the Vigilante seems tier 3. But I don't really know, mainly because PF classes are better than 3.5.

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    Tark
    "Peoplez be scared of us big 'uns. Dey dumb. Dey never see mah tiny friens comin'."

    Spoiler: Backstory
    Show
    Tark was always different from the other troll children. He was smart. He wondered why things worked. While the other little trolls would be busy just eating the corpses of the meat thrown to them, and would forget about it after they were eaten, he would try putting the bones back together after consuming the flesh of the meat. Of course he was still a troll so he was rarely successful but he tried and thatís the key point. Normally a smart male troll would get eaten by the Matriarch of their pack but he lucked out. When he was 2, his Pack was captured by hobgoblins.

    They killed the Matriarch and cast spells on the others to keep them down. However due to his latent spell resistance, it simply didnít work. He played along, utilizing his low cunning to stay alive and act submissive. But this was to be a time of learning. He had access to captives and through them, he learned the common tongue. A broken version but it still counted for something. He could convey basic concepts. Things like hunger and fear. This was unknown for a troll and he was given to the Hobgoblin Shaman who put him to work as a personal pet/executioner.

    Most trolls perish early in their childhood due to savage attacks while their regeneration is still growing but he was smart. He skulked the battlefields that the Hobgoblins threw him on, consuming the corpses left behind by his master. He was living the good life for a troll. Plenty of corpses to eat, to get the closest thing a trolls stomach gets to satisfaction. Knowledge from watching the shaman work and listening to the prisoners tales.

    They told him of the gods, of the grand kingdoms and the feasts they gave to their citizens. Any other troll would have been bored and ignored them at best but he kept a careful ear. Indeed, he gave little rewards for their trouble. A toy here, a bit of soap and water there. Enough to keep them telling the stories!

    The prisoners promised to show the troll boy the world if he released them...and the fool he was believed them. He broke open their cage with his strength and used his knowledge of the woods to sneak them out. But instead of showing him the world freely like promised, he was captured. They burned him and forced him to accept a collar and a pair of shackles. Now he was to tour the world, except as a prisoner.

    They forced him to do tricks, chopping off his limbs and showing them off as they regenerated. He spent the worst years of his life like this, all the way until he was 12. Every day was pain. He begged for help in the only language he knew the word in. Giant. No one understood it though! They just saw a troll screaming and found it funny. But eventually his act became boring and brought in less and less money before one day? They beat him and then tossed him aside.

    He was too weak to hunt humans or any other real sentient. Or really anything other than rats. He could barely move! He ate what he could but it wasnít enough. He was eventually discovered and called a pest, the local paladin order moving in to exterminate him. Although at this point, even a boy with a torch could put him out of his misery.

    Tark looked up at the man with the flaming sword, fear in his eyes. He was smart enough to know fear, to know that if that thing sliced off his head there would be no coming back. And despite everything, he still wanted to live. There were tastes untold that he hadnít experienced, magic yet to be seen. There was so much to do. But he was to die here. All he wished, before he died was a bite of food, something to soothe his aching stomach as he was put down. He grabbed the Paladins foot and begged him in broken common. ĒF-Food...hungry,Ē

    His voice was crackly and his accent horrible but it gave the man pause. Enough for the priest behind him who was praying for even the monsters soul. The Priest cast his spells and found that the soul of the Troll, despite being surrounded by evil deeds, was still untainted. There was potential for good.

    Instead of killing the troll, The Priest brought him back and taught him their ways. He was not smart enough to learn the magicks of a priest and their god did not accept a troll as one of their followers but he learned something else. Within their books was a deep conceptual text about the channeling of energies through one's body. He didnít understand a word of it, but with help from the priest (who never gave him his name) he managed to use the knowledge within, granting him great combat prowess.

    More importantly than mere skill in a fight, the priest taught him morals. That he couldnít consume sentients merely because he was hungry. He told him to explore the world, to meet people and to come back when he was an accepted member of society. Only then, would his redemption be complete.
    Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
    the patience to accept what I cannot,
    and CHAINFISTS FOR HANDS. Amen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auranghzeb View Post
    If I had to make a guess, the Vigilante seems tier 3. But I don't really know, mainly because PF classes are better than 3.5.
    They're basically a rogue forced to split some of it's tallents away from combat, which can swap the rouge bit for other classes/abilities such as 2/3rds casting. You might be able to lwverage it into 2 but it's a high teir 3 iirc.
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    if someone could check my sheet i'd be big yay
    Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
    the patience to accept what I cannot,
    and CHAINFISTS FOR HANDS. Amen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax View Post
    if someone could check my sheet i'd be big yay
    I have checked your sheet and all linked, I haven't seen anything blatantly wrong or problematic. For yours, though: Path of War will take time to review, sadly won't be tonight. I look closer at CN alignments, frankly. You have a redemption and good/social goal, I'd likely have further questions on behavior and motivations.

    I agree with 5ColouredWalker and Auranghzeb that Vigilante can reach T3 with some effort. I'm not seeing T2 really, though it can be a very flexible T3. So 40 point buy (3.5 version), 3 feats from tier level.

    Incubus/Succubus will need some tweaking by me, but I appreciate you doing a lot of the work. I'm going with thread (although there wasn't great agreement to be honest) of +2 LA on a 6 RHD outsider. I realize that's +2 Cha every level and one of the things I'm watching. Ethereal jaunt worries me more than greater teleport, but I don't think you'll see that at all until 6 or more likely 7. Losing a RHD at levels 3 and 6 look right, I'd likely give 20' (average) flight at 3, and immunity to poison a bit later. You'd have a very high resistant though, demon and all.

    I'll try to come up with a table of current interested players tonight. Which will be closed to new interest Monday night (tomorrow) when I open the thread. You have time for full character sheets, basic class/race concept should be in the next day or three, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Covenant12 View Post
    I have checked your sheet and all linked, I haven't seen anything blatantly wrong or problematic. For yours, though: Path of War will take time to review, sadly won't be tonight. I look closer at CN alignments, frankly. You have a redemption and good/social goal, I'd likely have further questions on behavior and motivations.
    So like, rn? He's CN. He's still a beastie. He's trying to redeem himself though, having pulled himself off the track of monstrous behavior. He hasn't achieved it so he's still chaotic neutral
    Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
    the patience to accept what I cannot,
    and CHAINFISTS FOR HANDS. Amen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax View Post
    So like, rn? He's CN. He's still a beastie. He's trying to redeem himself though, having pulled himself off the track of monstrous behavior. He hasn't achieved it so he's still chaotic neutral
    I read what the DM says as more like, if he is on the path to redemption, it means that he sees his pasts actions and that of his kin as mistakes and morally wrong. Therefore, he might not be lawful, but he is probably Good. Seeing that morally he is not ambiguous as to good and evil. His bestial nature makes him chaotic, but the redemption story points at Good to me.

    And I like your sheet a lot. A strong character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auranghzeb View Post
    I read what the DM says as more like, if he is on the path to redemption, it means that he sees his pasts actions and that of his kin as mistakes and morally wrong. Therefore, he might not be lawful, but he is probably Good. Seeing that morally he is not ambiguous as to good and evil. His bestial nature makes him chaotic, but the redemption story points at Good to me.

    And I like your sheet a lot. A strong character.
    Consistently agree with this. Trolls are inherently chaotic and he is even less likely to want to be told what to do, probably exceedingly chaotic. I'm reading and hoping for at least slightly the good side of neutral on the good/evil axis. But that would likely be one of the questions.

    Interest table: I'll double check the entire thread again, but otherwise closed to interest after this list:

    Player Character-Link Race build Class build
    Auranghzeb Gudu Sileso Djinni/Athasian Human Factotum
    Amoren Kaldakaczii Gold Dragon Sorcerer
    Triskavanski T1000 Warforged Doppleganger Vigilante
    5ColouredWalker Hhal'shur Fourclaw Giant Lizardfolk/Hobgoblin Fighter
    Xenopax Tark Troll Mystic(PoW)
    Ancient Glymir Lantern Archon/Halfling Bard/Inquisitor
    Drako_Beoulve No sheet yet Unseelie Fey Magic Blooded Gloura/Gnome Bard
    Anachronity Orthon Giant Owl Druid (PF) Nature Fang
    Almostdead No sheet yet Triton Kineticist(PF)
    ErebusVonMori No sheet yet Spider Eater Paladin
    Sutr No sheet yet Rune hound Incarnate (Incarnum, 3.5)
    Dr.Gunsforhands No sheet yet Incubus Unknown
    javcs No sheet yet Interest only Unknown
    Rhyvurg No sheet yet Interest only Unknown
    Stormwolf69 No sheet yet Interest only Unknown

    Officially closed to new interest. Feel free to ask further questions.

    Going to request sheets done by Sunday night, September 15th. Decisions should be shortly after, Monday or Tuesday.
    Last edited by Covenant12; 2019-09-18 at 04:49 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: (3.P) Monsters as PC's (Re-recruitment)

    Aight that's fair. CG it is!
    Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
    the patience to accept what I cannot,
    and CHAINFISTS FOR HANDS. Amen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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