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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-02 at 10:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheYell View Post
    {scrub×the post, scrub the quote}
    {scrubbed}

    Meanwhile, we've been discussing what it means to be "lawful", "good", and "lawful good", and whether Alignment as presented makes valid moral assertions, in the context of addressing the thread's initial question -- one I might note that you are not the originator of. Multiple moderators are engaged in this discussion, so evidently it is not as a whole off-topic or violating the rules. If the originator of this thread wants us to rein it, I'm sure they'll say so.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-02 at 10:58 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Besides, proving that god-based morality don't work doesn't actualy require to discuss any religions.
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    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-02 at 11:05 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    Besides, proving that god-based morality don't work doesn't actualy require to discuss any religions.
    {scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    There is a small sticking point to the argument in that you have to prove objectively good thing is objectively good. Which ends up being a lot harder than many would like because good is a very nebulous concept.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-02 at 11:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Surprised it took so long for Miko Miyazaki to be mentioned as an unpleasant LG person. On a GitP forum, no less.

    Lol.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    In D&D, which we are discussing, these are not imaginary. They are real places. You can go there. You can even be born, grow up, and die there.

    Really, your understanding of D&D alignment seems so at variance with my own, I don't see that we have common ground to talk about it.
    *scrubbed*
    Last edited by flat_footed; 2019-09-02 at 05:38 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    *scrub the post, scrub the quote*
    *scrubbed*

    Now, to be fair I agree with a lot of what you are saying about why they don't work, or at least understand why you feel that way. But here's the thing, I thinks alignment work brilliantly at what they were invented for and that is for high fantasy melodrama. Its all about the setting and tone that a system supports and pairing them up. Good Evil Law and Chaos exist so the Holy Knight can Smite the Foul Demon conjured by Unholy magic by the Mad Sorcerour. They are a tool to facilitate certain types of stories.

    I would never suggest something like Alignment in Call of Cuthulu or a sanity score in Pendragon (although I might consider Traits in DnD now I come to think of it). Those games do other things and fullfil other fantasies. Look at how much Ravenloft messes with the normal alignemnt rules to allow a gothic setting.
    Last edited by flat_footed; 2019-09-02 at 05:38 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilDMMk3 View Post
    *scrub the post, scrub the quote*

    Now, to be fair I agree with a lot of what you are saying about why they don't work, or at least understand why you feel that way. But here's the thing, I thinks alignment work brilliantly at what they were invented for and that is for high fantasy melodrama. Its all about the setting and tone that a system supports and pairing them up. Good Evil Law and Chaos exist so the Holy Knight can Smite the Foul Demon conjured by Unholy magic by the Mad Sorcerour. They are a tool to facilitate certain types of stories.

    I would never suggest something like Alignment in Call of Cuthulu or a sanity score in Pendragon (although I might consider Traits in DnD now I come to think of it). Those games do other things and fullfil other fantasies. Look at how much Ravenloft messes with the normal alignemnt rules to allow a gothic setting.
    See - I subscribe to the point of view that any debate, to be meaningful, needs a full slate of differing or opposing views. I'm well aware I'm .. an outlier in this context (and many others beside), but I'm not about to exclude myself because of that.

    I ... partly agree with alignments maybe 'working as intended'. If you want high fantasy melodrama, maybe they can do ok. I like grey zones, moral ambiguity, dubious heroes and relatable villains. For what I want out of a game, alignments aren't that great. I like how alignment works in Eberron - or at least, I like it better =D
    Last edited by flat_footed; 2019-09-02 at 05:38 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    See - I subscribe to the point of view that any debate, to be meaningful, needs a full slate of differing or opposing views. I'm well aware I'm .. an outlier in this context (and many others beside), but I'm not about to exclude myself because of that.
    Except this debate was about does LG = personable? It is now turned into an argument over if L = E and what even are L and E. Its derailed the whole thread.

    I agree that we need multiple PoVs, but you still need to engage with the debate on the terms of that debate.
    Last edited by Evil DM Mark3; 2019-09-02 at 03:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilDMMk3 View Post
    Except this debate was about does LG = personable? It is now turned into an argument over if L = E and what even are L and E. Its derailed the whole thread.

    I agree that we need multiple PoVs, but you still need to engage with the debate on the terms of that debate.
    Often part of what makes a "lawful good" but non-personable character a "jerk" is an over-adherence to law and/or conflating "lawful" with "good".

    Part of the debate here, then, has been whether a character can be absolutely lawful and absolutely good at the same time (I say no -- there will always be instances where the two are in conflict and the character must choose; and there are no perfect laws that cover all situations perfectly; and there are times when "good" amounts to "the least bad option").
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    See - I subscribe to the point of view that any debate, to be meaningful, needs a full slate of differing or opposing views. I'm well aware I'm .. an outlier in this context (and many others beside), but I'm not about to exclude myself because of that.

    I ... partly agree with alignments maybe 'working as intended'. If you want high fantasy melodrama, maybe they can do ok. I like grey zones, moral ambiguity, dubious heroes and relatable villains. For what I want out of a game, alignments aren't that great. I like how alignment works in Eberron - or at least, I like it better =D
    Nobody's asking you to exclude yourself - but this isn't a "does alignment make sense as a concept" thread. To even talk about Lawful Good, you kind of have to assume that the game system being discussed has an alignment system that uses it. Those are the basic parameters in place for the discussion to even happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    *scrub the post, scrub the quote*
    That doesn't make any sense... at all...
    Last edited by flat_footed; 2019-09-02 at 05:39 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Often part of what makes a "lawful good" but non-personable character a "jerk" is an over-adherence to law and/or conflating "lawful" with "good".

    Part of the debate here, then, has been whether a character can be absolutely lawful and absolutely good at the same time (I say no -- there will always be instances where the two are in conflict and the character must choose; and there are no perfect laws that cover all situations perfectly; and there are times when "good" amounts to "the least bad option").
    A person who truly conflates the two would be lawful neutral, not good.

    People tend to resent those who insist on obeying laws to the letter even if there is no conflict at all.

    Good and Lawful don't conflict nearly as often as Lawful and Fun do.

    Good and Fun also conflict quite often. Even the most harmless pranks tend to have an element of cruelty to them. Is it fun for Elan to draw a moustache on Roy while Roy can't move because he's been poisoned? Obviously. Is it Good? No, I would say it isn't.

    Any person who is very lawful and very good will therefore run the risk of coming across as a bit boring.


    Even Carrot, a character whom almost everyone likes, can be a bit annoying. His girlfriend Angua wishes he was just a tiny bit more biased in her favour, because he is annoyingly impartial when what she wants or needs is in conflict with what anyone else wants or needs.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    there will always be instances where the two are in conflict and the character must choose; and there are no perfect laws that cover all situations perfectly; and there are times when "good" amounts to "the least bad option"
    There is no reason you can't play a character who believes they have obedience to a perfect code and there is always a right thing to do, and then make them struggle to find it.
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Often part of what makes a "lawful good" but non-personable character a "jerk" is an over-adherence to law and/or conflating "lawful" with "good".

    Part of the debate here, then, has been whether a character can be absolutely lawful and absolutely good at the same time (I say no -- there will always be instances where the two are in conflict and the character must choose; and there are no perfect laws that cover all situations perfectly; and there are times when "good" amounts to "the least bad option").
    If by "jerk" you mean "this character is unpleasant for less morally and especially ethically rigid folks to be around for long" - then yes, I agree. Archons are a solid example of this - they are staunch allies of good and you would likely want one on your side in a fight, but there's also a pretty good chance that an archon in an adventuring party of mortals would have no qualms about lecturing/nagging them (particularly any that are non-LG) on every misstep or foible they make that causes them to fall below its celestial standards. Even a paladin in that same party would get lectured, for failing to have converted his non-LG party members if nothing else, and the party would likely hasten to keep the archon's membership in the group as brief as necessary.

    As for inability to be absolutely good and absolutely lawful - I agree that that is going to be impossible for most beings. But here again archons are a useful example - being perfectly committed to both is not the expectation, even for beings that are literally created out of those concepts. Hamishspence's earlier quote illustrates this well - given a choice between associating with the ethical flexibility of Chaotic Good eladrins and the ethical rigidity of Lawful Evil devils, archons will choose the former every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If by "jerk" you mean "this character is unpleasant for less morally and especially ethically rigid folks to be around for long" - then yes, I agree. Archons are a solid example of this - they are staunch allies of good and you would likely want one on your side in a fight, but there's also a pretty good chance that an archon in an adventuring party of mortals would have no qualms about lecturing/nagging them (particularly any that are non-LG) on every misstep or foible they make that causes them to fall below its celestial standards. Even a paladin in that same party would get lectured, for failing to have converted his non-LG party members if nothing else, and the party would likely hasten to keep the archon's membership in the group as brief as necessary.
    Archon: Blah, blah, blah, blah...
    'Stick-in-the-mud' Paladin: [sotto voce] Is this how you guys feel when I do it?
    Party: [nods]
    Paladin: Oh, Pelor, now I know...
    Last edited by NNescio; 2019-09-03 at 03:04 AM.
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    As BoED points out, an Archon is vastly more able to stomach the Chaos of an Eladrin, than the Evil of a Devil. They are Good first, Lawful very much second.

    LG and CG characters can and do routinely cooperate toward Good ends. Adventuring parties frequently consist of Good characters of all alignments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Then the diagram should be an oval, with the long axis on Good vs Evil.
    Ah, but you must consider the lower planes as well the demons and devils can stomach the celestials much more than they can each other

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    You know I was just having the same discussion on my recent thread about What's Wrong With Lawful Good? To me, I just don't understand why Lawful Good is a bad alignment. Lawful Evil I get but Lawful Good. It's just like the Burning Hate disguised as Pelor.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    You know I was just having the same discussion on my recent thread about What's Wrong With Lawful Good? To me, I just don't understand why Lawful Good is a bad alignment. Lawful Evil I get but Lawful Good. It's just like the Burning Hate disguised as Pelor.
    Personally, I think Neutral Good is the best alignment. And that stems from an understanding that order and structure are important in order to foster a foundation for society to flourish, while also understanding that chaos is an inherent property of the universe, and also key towards change and growth. Too much law leads to stagnation and too much chaos, well, leads to entropy and ruin. At times, more Law is needed to rebalance the Chaotic forces, and other times, Law becomes too powerful and needs to be diluted. For me, I only care than when conflict occurs between the Law/Chaos and the Good alignment, the Good wins.

    As far as the Neutral and Evil alignments go, they are just variants of self-interest and disregard for the inherent worth of other beings. Personally distasteful as far as I am concerned, but I am also aware that we all possess various levels of self-interest and disregard for others within ourselves. Our job is to grow beyond our own self-interest and rise from those alignments if we want to make the world a better place, in D&D or the real world.

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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldonauran View Post
    Personally, I think Neutral Good is the best alignment. And that stems from an understanding that order and structure are important in order to foster a foundation for society to flourish, while also understanding that chaos is an inherent property of the universe, and also key towards change and growth. Too much law leads to stagnation and too much chaos, well, leads to entropy and ruin. At times, more Law is needed to rebalance the Chaotic forces, and other times, Law becomes too powerful and needs to be diluted. For me, I only care than when conflict occurs between the Law/Chaos and the Good alignment, the Good wins.

    As far as the Neutral and Evil alignments go, they are just variants of self-interest and disregard for the inherent worth of other beings. Personally distasteful as far as I am concerned, but I am also aware that we all possess various levels of self-interest and disregard for others within ourselves. Our job is to grow beyond our own self-interest and rise from those alignments if we want to make the world a better place, in D&D or the real world.
    Yes, personally I blame the inexperienced players who don't know how to act Lawfully Good, not the alignment itself.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Yes, personally I blame the inexperienced players who don't know how to act Lawfully Good, not the alignment itself.
    I blame it more on moral relativism but, yes, inexperience may very well play a large role.
    Last edited by Eldonauran; 2019-09-17 at 12:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Oh, heavens, no. Being Laful or Good and being actually pleasant to be around are entirely orthogonal. You can be LG and the most pleasant person around, and you can be LG and absolutely goddamned insufferable.

    A quick example that comes to mind is Granny Weatherwax, from Discworld. It's very easy to see her as Lawful Good (with Nanny, of course, being her chaotic good counterpart) - she has an ironclad adherence to the ways she considers proper, and is as good as one can humanly be. And she would be absolutely infuriating to be around. Almost physically incapable of admitting a mistake, always ready to make sure you know she thinks you're a dimwit and that her opinion on the matter is the one that matters, proud to a fault, constantly testing and needling everyone around her unnecessarily out of a need to keep everyone at arm's distance, etcetera, etcetera.
    Last edited by Drascin; 2019-09-17 at 01:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    Surprised it took so long for Miko Miyazaki to be mentioned as an unpleasant LG person. On a GitP forum, no less.

    Lol.
    The best example of her being unnecessarily unpleasant:
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html

    There's others where it can be argued The Stickers were also being difficult, but this is where a more pleasant or self aware Paladin could have made things run more smoothly.

    Granny Weatherwax is also a great example
    Last edited by Duff; 2019-09-17 at 11:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    That being said, I do think Miko always straddled the line between LG and LN, and when she fell I'd be hard pressed to consider her anything other than LN. As for characters that are paragons of LG and don't traddle that line at all but are annoying to be around, I think Batman is a good example, or Leonardo from the TMNT and also Captain America can be that at times
    Last edited by Morgana; 2019-09-18 at 02:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by bundlesandflows View Post
    Are there compelling counterexamples of Lawful Good individuals (who are unambiguously Lawful Good) who aren't very positive or wholesome people to be around? I'm thinking through a character concept right now and would love some input.
    "Lawful Good" does not mean "Obedient Nice".

    Law can apply to a higher or different standard than the other players and NPCs in your game. You don't have to be an abrasive ****, but making sure the party knows you intend to go above and beyond the call of duty whenever something like innocent lives or holy places are on the line can be a good way to distinguish yourself from your party. If there's a couple enemies standing by a prisoner, you're not going to use a fireball on them but you might kill them with such swift application of force they don't even have the chance to endanger the life of a civilian. In the same vein, while the law of a city may permit slavery, a Lawful Good character who answers to a higher or innate Law of morality might do everything in their power--including breaking the law--to free the enslaved people. If these people are criminals however a different conclusion may need to be reached: like I said before, it's a standard that YOU decide, not the DM and their world's laws.

    Goodness is a compelling concept. While kindness and gentility are certainly aspects of "goodness" there is a time and place for traditionally "evil" deeds. *scrubbed*
    Good. Hates. Evil.
    Make no mistake: redemption is certainly possible. But sometimes a reality check is in order first. A brigand likely won't give up his life of highway robbery at the behest of a stranger he just threatened to rob; his opinion may be vastly different however if that stranger brings him to within an inch of his life and stays his hand, offering a hope for redemption and a better existence.
    In summery, "To those who know they need wisdom give it gladly; to those who do not yet know they need it, stay your tongue until they do".

    Lastly, in Xanathar's there are tables that give further character building prompts for each class. If you have the book I suggest you take a look at the Paladin's "Temptations" table. Whether or not you're playing the class, I think it's important to give Lawful Good characters a flaw or weakness that threatens to eat away at their resolve as their adventure proceeds. This table offers some ideas for creating a human Lawful Good character and not just some robot programmed to follow every tenant of their order and order from their god perfectly.
    Last edited by flat_footed; 2019-09-26 at 01:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Gordon Brittas. That is all.
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    A lawful good person will generally present personality traits of law and good. They still are people of flesh and blood with biological needs and weaknesses. They still can be flawed.

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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Quote Originally Posted by Studoku View Post
    Gordon Brittas. That is all.
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    To turn the question around a little, I think it can be re-phrased as:
    "Are all characteristics which are negative or unwholesome non-good"? If the answer to this is yes, then all lawful good people are in fact positive, wholesome people to be around.

    So, negative behaviors - Lots of these are abusive and non-good. But here's a few:
    Substance abuse can be both legal and might not be anti-good (depending on how your local ethics committee feel about a person's obligation to them-self). Can of course lead to other behaviors which would be judged on their own merits
    Drama seeking wouldn't have to be non-good. For example a fondness for difficult and/or inappropriate (by local rules) romantic entanglements.
    Pessimism - 'nuff said?
    Stubbornness can lead to evil, but with some self awareness, I think there's room for this to be difficult-but-not-ungood
    Impatience - like stubborness, can lead to evil, but with some self control, I think there's room for this to be difficult-but-not-ungood

    Unwholesome is easier I think. Someone who eats their weird smelling foreign food could be considered unwholesome in a society with limited experience of foreigners. The good people of the village understand The Viking likes her horrible stinky fermented shark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1karl), and that she eats it to help manage her homesickness. But that doesn't mean they don't avoid her after she's been eating it. Then there's the effects of curses, vows and (possibly) random magic effects. Lots of ways to make a person weird and unpleasant which don't stop them being good.

    I'm going with a firm "No"
    I love playing in a party with a couple of power-gamers, it frees me up to be Elan!


  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Is a Lawful Good person always a positive, wholesome person to be around?

    Let's not forget Ludafisk, or however one spells that dish. Another gross Viking dish.
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